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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  15:58:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If i just agree for arguments sake, that the Leafs won the trade, can this thread go off and die???
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Guest2485
( )

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  16:15:39  Reply with Quote
Sure as long as we can agree that Burrows is a clean and respectable player.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  18:05:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes Elvis, Seguin is doing pretty good, he is having his say in this series.

You know Beans, your sarcastic remarks revolving around kessel`s playoffs ( Toronto`s ) and Seguin`s ( Boston`s ) just make you look quite silly really..........

With just 1 playoff round kessel had 6 points.......

Half way through his 4 th playoff round Seguin has 7 points........

WOW Beans.....just imagine.....with 3 extra playoff rounds Seguin is out-scoring kessel by 1 point....now that is surely as you put it a true NHL...MVP

Now of course someone is going to come back and say........Seguin has a stanley cup ring and soon may have 2.......hahahaha...kessel is golfing again....hahahahaha

This thread is about basically who got the better player......not who got the better team......Toronto or Boston.

Right now the numbers prove that kessel is by far the better player......not saying he always will be but he is right now.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  18:15:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guess what Elvis ??

On my way home tonight from a peyote experiment........i was involved in a car accident and suffered head trauma........of course i started drinking again and got on this site....

Have a nice evening every1
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  22:26:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am actually at a loss for words right now......

I must remember to have a nice long breakfast conversation with my 8 year old in the morning, get my sense of balance back and all.


Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 06/18/2013 22:28:55
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Guest2485
( )

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  23:55:12  Reply with Quote
This thread is not about who got the better player. It is about who got the better deal and I still dont understand how any sane person could say Toronto came out on top. Kessel is not a true top 10 player. this year was a anomally. he career numbers say he is a 30 goal, 60 pt player.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  00:03:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2485

Sure as long as we can agree that Burrows is a clean and respectable player.



I'd agree to anything to end this thread in all honesty. Though to your point, i actually do think Burrows is clean compared to the avg player. Respectable? Not hard to argue against him here a few years back, but lately he's improved drastically. Of course, there was a lot of room for improvement, i'll admit that!
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Guest4350
( )

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  06:50:13  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
You know Beans, your sarcastic remarks revolving around kessel`s playoffs ( Toronto`s ) and Seguin`s ( Boston`s ) just make you look quite silly really..........

You call Bean's comments silly? Have you read any of your past posts (since ummm page 1)? Talk about pot calling kettle black.

I think Beans is trying to be sillier than you in his sarcastic argument and still failed in his attempt.

BTW, I love how you changed the argument (again for the 10th time) to who got the better player right now instead of which team won the trade (which you indirectly admitted on bottom of page 12 as Boston). Be consistent in your arguments and points or this will go to 20 pages.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  10:42:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I love this thread.

So now, it appears as though both TheDuke, AND Beans have crossed the floor. If we do a quick head count, we have:

Kessel Krusaders: Crock, Beans
Seguin Slow Pokes: Fat Elvis, Alex(?), TheDuke, and just about every guest out there.

Beans, welcome to the Dark Side.

It seems as though I'm a dying breed here boys. A dying breed. We know that even Beans was being sarcastic... So, I guess it's just me (and Kessel) vs. The World here. Nothing new.

But boys. I've got news for you. All of your rhetoric pumping up Seguin while cutting down Kessel is just simply helping ME win Hockey Pools. Thank you boys. Thank you. Somehow, Kessel's value drops by like 15 spots in the draft every year - a sly, but shrewd poolie will be able to snipe a Kessel in the 4th Round while those who continue to drink the KoolAid scramble all over themselves to draft a Seguin in the same aforementioned Round. Tut tut tut.

So, perhaps you should be asking yourself this question:

You are doing a draft for next year's Pool. You find yourself in Round 3 with the 18th overall pick and both Kessel and Seguin are available. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO PICK??




.....Crock takes it at the buzzer, goes back....... And SWISH!! CROCK NAILS THE 3-POINTER!! Wins it for the Good Guys. Crowd goes wild.



*Ahem*. I'm claiming victory here.

1.) If you said that you would have picked Seguin over Kessel in your draft - then you are wrong, and your opinion can clearly be disregarded.
2.) If you said that you would have picked Kessel - well. Then Kessel is the better player. Which is true.

And, as we all know - whoever gets the better player in the trade, wins the trade. It's an old adage boys. As old as the hills. An adage. It's an adage for a reason. Because there is truth behind it.

3.) Before you get all into your "but Seguin is younger and better defensively" blah blah blah rhetoric, please understand something. Yes, defense is very important. It is extremely important. I love defense. When I play hockey, I am the most defensively responsible player out there. Defense is key.

But, Defense is replaceable. Being able to score goals is irreplacable. This is why Kessel is so valuable. Seguin scores goals at a standard clip for a 2nd-liner. And, he is great on D. So is Chris Kelly. So is Manny Malholtra. So are any number of NHLers out there. Replaceable. Place holders on the team.

Scoring goals is irreplaceable - hence Kessel's enormous (misunderstood, and underestimated) value.



Anyway, thanks for coming out boys. I can we can all wrap that up now. That was fun. Thanks for coming out.


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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  11:00:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock, if you measure players simple on who you would pick for your hockey pool then I won't be able to see your point. I would take Kessel in the 3rd round of my draft if it was a point only, single season pool. If it was a keeper pool with both offensive and defensive stats, I would have to think a lot more on it.

That said, if I was in a keeper pool and I had Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight and you offered me Kessel for those three I wouldn't be able to stop laughing.



I still don't think anyone is arguing Kessel's talents. He is a top teir player in the league today. No doubt about it. But that doesn't take away from three players vs one with Seguin not being as dynamic of a scorer but definately in the discussion when comparing the two players.

Simple fact of the matter is that until you can see that this is not a one for one trade andt here are three players involved, you will never be able to see any other POV. I get that Kessel is likely the best single player in the deal today. But I reserve the right to think how good Seguin will be at the same point in his career that Kessel is today PLUS the added value of Hamilton and Knight.





Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  13:13:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
2012 stats Seguin +23, 8.2 goals per million, 10.3 assist per million.
2013 stats Seguin +34, 4.5 goals per million, 4.5 assists per million

2012 stats Kessel -10, 6.8 goals per million, 8.3 assists per million.
2013 stats Kessel -3, 3.7 goals per million, 5.9 assist per million

Lets take into account 39 post season games over 3 seasons with 17 points for Sequin, versus 7 games played with 6 points for Kessel. 1st playoff matchup Kessel gets the stats advantage, Seguin assist on the goal that sends Kessel Golfing. Best bang for your buck, you be the judge.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 06/19/2013 13:18:04
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  14:30:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had to jump in the DeLorean and go way to the top of page 1, and I found this interesting little line from the OP;

"Poll Question:
Now that it is final, What team in your opnion won this trade"

Has that been forgotten?? or just simply ignored....

As entertaining as some of the posts are to read, it's glaringly apparent, they have nothing to do with what was asked back then. I would pick Kessel in a pool ahead of Seguin absolutely, just like I would pick Boston to be a better team than Toronto.

Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 06/19/2013 14:32:42
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  15:25:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
3.) Before you get all into your "but Seguin is younger and better defensively" blah blah blah rhetoric, please understand something. Yes, defense is very important. It is extremely important. I love defense. When I play hockey, I am the most defensively responsible player out there. Defense is key.

But, Defense is replaceable. Being able to score goals is irreplacable. This is why Kessel is so valuable. Seguin scores goals at a standard clip for a 2nd-liner. And, he is great on D. So is Chris Kelly. So is Manny Malholtra. So are any number of NHLers out there. Replaceable. Place holders on the team.

Scoring goals is irreplaceable - hence Kessel's enormous (misunderstood, and underestimated) value.




Crock.....i can just see it now, how other GM's would love for you to take over a team. Imagine guys like Ken Holland having a chuckle as you win $100 off him by drafting Kessel in the annual GM's hockey pool, all while he drafts, develop's and signs a guy like Datsyuk to a contract (in the real world) enabling him to win multiple Stanley Cups. Because, judging by your comparisons, goals are everything and therefore seeing as Kessel had more goals, he's gotta be the better hockey player, right? I mean, Datsyuk may be better defensively, but hey, "Defense is replaceable".


Edited by - Alex116 on 06/19/2013 15:25:50
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  16:43:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You know Beans, your last post really just backs up what crock is saying.....( quote from the great Sam Pollack ).....who-ever gets the best player in a trade ....wins the trade...

You say that you agree that right now kessel is likely the best player of this trade....but it involved 3 players for 1...in Boston`s favour.......so the leafs lose out......lets look at it this way.......

1. ) Seguin is a very good player....wether he becomes as good as kessel remains to be seen.

2. ) If the leafs can place players in their line-up like C. Franson....K. Holzer.....M. Frazer, big boys who are as tough or tougher than Hamilton....are they really missing Hamiliton ??......Point being, if Hamiliton can be re-placed....who cares ??

3. ) Jared Knight....the 3rd illusive peice.......who is this mystery player ??......he is 5` 11`` inches tall...195 lbs and is 21 years old.......his last couple of CHL seasons he was a point per game player....who isn`t ??...............In 19 AHL games with the Providence Bruins ( a more true read on him... ) ....he has 2 goals and a total of 7 points .....in other words, he is just another re-placable player .....who cares,
,
So, after looking at these facts ........

1. ) Knight is a wash .....just a replacable part

2. ) Hamiliton will be a good D-man, true....but the leafs have replaced him already......so no great loss

3. ) Boils down to this my freinds....Sure the leafs didn`t get Seguin.......but they gained a top ten league scorer who is very, very difficult to replace.

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Guest2485
( )

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  17:06:23  Reply with Quote
There is no way you can write off Hamilton like that, its his first year in the NHL. Ask any G.M. and they will tell you it can take up to 5 years before they develop. Seguin is already a top 6 forward. I know he is playing on third line now, but played on top line all season. Knight is a bit of an unknown but dont discount Bostons ability to draft in the second round. Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic and Marchand were all second rounders.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  17:10:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
guest 2485.........you said kessels season was an anomaly....he is not a true top 10 scorer.....

Do you realize that this is 2 consecutive top 10 scoring seasons in a row for him ??.....1 year may be an anomaly....2 is consistent

you talk about his career stats.....he is still a youngster at 25......kessels career is just beginning my friend.....he is just blossoming .....coming into his own, wait till he gets a 1st line center to play along side of one day, sadly it may be outside of Toronto.


Joshua.....whats with this goals per million nonsense ??
in 00-01..........T . Domi was 13 goals per million
in 00-01......... M. sundin was 4 goals per million

in 02 - 03
Domi was ..........15 goals per million
Sundin was .......5.5 goals per million

So, by your thinking and posting......in 00-01 Domi was more than 3 times better than Sundin

and in 02-03 Domi was just less than 3 times better than Sundin.........what foolishness
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Guest2485
( )

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  17:18:30  Reply with Quote
You do know when Sam Pollack said that, there were only 6 teams playing , no free agency, and no salary cap. Considerations that didn't exists as they do today.
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  21:50:23  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
So, perhaps you should be asking yourself this question:

You are doing a draft for next year's Pool. You find yourself in Round 3 with the 18th overall pick and both Kessel and Seguin are available. WHO ARE YOU GOING TO PICK??

And, as we all know - whoever gets the better player in the trade, wins the trade. It's an old adage boys. As old as the hills. An adage. It's an adage for a reason. Because there is truth behind it.



In essence your argument in the above post for the Leafs winning the trade is based on fantasy hockey and an adage.

Let's look at the frist one based on fantasy hockey. Note the word fantasy preceding the word hockey. Because we all know the famous saying by the boogie man: "fantasy hockey wins the Stanley Cup." It's an old adage so it must be true, I mean the boogie man goes back millenias. Which brings us to the second part of your argument.

Adage. Definition: sayings that have general truths. Synonyms: Lore, fable, myth, old wives tales.

So your entire argument so far for the Leafs winning this trade goes something like this:

1. Based on revisionist history in some alternate universe that doesn't exist, where Kessel holds up 5 Stanley Cups for the Bs and
2. Based on fantasy, stories, generalities and old wives tales that the team that got the best player wins the trade.

Good one, I think you got many 6 yr olds convinced. "Look mommy, I just traded Luke Skywalker, Excalibur and a four leaf clover for a five headed dragon. I got the most powerful piece so I win. It's an old adage."

And Duke being the great master debater (who I think has short and long term memory issues) goes right along continuing to try to make his point but completely ignoring what he or anyone has posted in the last 13 pages.

Wow! Just F'ing amazing that it only took 13 pages of desperate grasping to reach this point. I can't wait for the next 13 pages where Crock and Duke introduce fairy dust, magic and the Force into their argument. Too late it seems, they may have already.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  14:51:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Joshua.....whats with this goals per million nonsense ??
in 00-01..........T . Domi was 13 goals per million
in 00-01......... M. sundin was 4 goals per million

in 02 - 03
Domi was ..........15 goals per million
Sundin was .......5.5 goals per million

So, by your thinking and posting......in 00-01 Domi was more than 3 times better than Sundin

and in 02-03 Domi was just less than 3 times better than Sundin.........what foolishness



Laughing as I read this. Just goes to show how foolish some contracts are. If Toronto got the best player in this trade, they overpaid and Boston got the better deal. Seems like they have a history of that by Sundins comparison to Domi (I am kidding here). Now I am not saying Domi to Sundin is a fair comparison, because Sundin was a more complete player than Domi, but isn't Seguin considered a more complete player than Kessel, and as I have show the math shows more points in the last 2 years per million, hell even more goals per million. Toronto losses again.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2013 :  20:48:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fairy dust and magic...hmmm..sounds interesting

Now i`ll stop being such a pest.........( only if )

every1 puts this kessel thread to rest ...Amen

I
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2013 :  22:52:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Fairy dust and magic...hmmm..sounds interesting

Now i`ll stop being such a pest.........( only if )

every1 puts this kessel thread to rest ...Amen

I



Well Duke, it WAS dormant for 4 days until you posted this.....
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  06:37:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seriously guest, the Luke Skywalker trade is not even relevant. He was a great Jedi in the minors on Tattoine but once he faced the Emperor he need help from his Daddy.

Worst trade of all time!!

Had you had included Yoda in that trade it would have been relevant to the conversation. Talking about Luke Skywalker is like bringing in a point like the Leafs not needing a guy like Dougie Hamilton because he has been replaced already.

It's just dumb. Now, can we start talking about 5 headed dragons already???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  09:26:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
It's just dumb. Now, can we start talking about 5 headed dragons already???




The 5 headed dragon that was Chara/Boychuk/Krejci/Horton/Lucic was just slayed!
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  09:39:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Seriously guest, the Luke Skywalker trade is not even relevant. He was a great Jedi in the minors on Tattoine but once he faced the Emperor he need help from his Daddy.

Worst trade of all time!!

Had you had included Yoda in that trade it would have been relevant to the conversation. Talking about Luke Skywalker is like bringing in a point like the Leafs not needing a guy like Dougie Hamilton because he has been replaced already.

It's just dumb. Now, can we start talking about 5 headed dragons already???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Nerd!
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  09:50:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Can`t do it can ya ???

Told ya this was the most interesting Thread on this site......what-ever it is, posters just got to keep on typing and typing and typing.......
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2013 :  13:33:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Seriously guest, the Luke Skywalker trade is not even relevant. He was a great Jedi in the minors on Tattoine but once he faced the Emperor he need help from his Daddy.

Worst trade of all time!!

Had you had included Yoda in that trade it would have been relevant to the conversation. Talking about Luke Skywalker is like bringing in a point like the Leafs not needing a guy like Dougie Hamilton because he has been replaced already.

It's just dumb. Now, can we start talking about 5 headed dragons already???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Nerd!



Pot calling the kettle black, ne pas?

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  12:16:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys, why would we EVER put this thread to rest??

I literally rolled out of my chair and laughed six times while reading everyone's reply. It's brilliant.

In addition to which - THIS DEBATE ISN'T OVER. It probably won't be over for a llllloooonnnnngggg time. Both Kessel and Seguin have careers ahead of them. Let's see how this plays out.

Duke, welcome to the Dark Side. Thank you for your support my friend. ;)

Beans, you nailed it. You said it. Kessel is a better player.

I agree that the "which player would you choose in your Pool" analogy is slightly flawed. But, the main idea behind it is/was the following: Like in a Pool - like in an NHL Hockey team - you can only have a certain number of players on your roster at any one time.

How many players can an NHL team dress? 20? Something like that?? Are you going to be dressing Seguin, Hamilton AND Knight every single (k)night? Remember, that takes up three roster spots. Sure, their value added laterally would clearly indicate that three players are better than one. But, they take up three spots.

I think that this is what is missing in the argument here. Everyone is talking about all three players as a straight comparison. I'm trying to suggest "roster spots" as being a major factor here.

That's why the old adage - while perhaps being stuff of faeries, unicorns, and Don Cherry - still holds true: Whoever gets the better player wins the trade.

(I pulled this adage from Barry Melrose btw. That man, knows his hockey.)

Why? Because they use only one roster spot to do what another team has to do with three.

That's why Hamilton and Knight are barely relevant in the conversation. That's why Toronto "won" the trade (to go back to the original question - thank you for keeping us on track Fat Elvis).

Now, the counter argument is Joshua's... That Seguin gets more "bang for the buck". The problem with this argument, is that... Joshua. Your numbers are wrong.

Seguin 2013: 16G, 16A, 32Pts, 5.7 million. That's $356,250.00 per goal, $178,125.00 per point.
Kessel 2013: 20G, 32A, 52Pts, 5.1 million. That's $255,000.00 per goal, $98,076.92 per point.

(Geeez, it must be awesome being a professional hockey player).

So Joshua, I like the approach you are taking here. But, you've done something wonky with the math... Check it again.

Next year, for the record, Kessel's salary goes up to 5.4 million; Seguin 4.5 million (2013-2014), 5.5 (2014-2015), 6.0 (2015-2017).

Source: nhlnumbers.com.

Anyway, if we are talking about who's better? Kessel.
Who takes up fewer roster spots to accomplish the same goals? Kessel (by a mile).
Who's more bang for the buck? Kessel.

...And, (for Fat Elvis), who won the trade?? Toronto*.


* - Contingent on Toronto signing and keeping Kessel.


PS - It's funny that it keeps coming up "well, Boston won the Cup..." blah blah blah. You know what guys? This trade still hasn't fully played itself out. What's your argument going to be if Toronto wins the Cup with Kessel in the next 2-5 years??????







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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  12:44:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Couple of things:

1 - If Barry Melrose knows his hockey so well, how come the only success he had is when some guy with a 99 on his shirt placed for him??

2 - The 'who would you pick in a hockey pool' analogy is slightly flawed?? Significantly flawed is more like it.

3 - Every GM in the league would take Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight over Kessel alone. It's not a slight on how good Kessel is, it's the fact that Seguin is a cornerstone forward, Hamilton is a cornerstone defensemen, and Knight is icing on the cake.

4 - You keep comparing them today to today. Why can't you see that Seguin is younger and has fewer games and seasons in the NHL. Why can't you compare apples to apples???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  15:07:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Phil Kessel only has one apple.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  15:38:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
[i]

Now, the counter argument is Joshua's... That Seguin gets more "bang for the buck". The problem with this argument, is that... Joshua. Your numbers are wrong.

Seguin 2013: 16G, 16A, 32Pts, 5.7 million. That's $356,250.00 per goal, $178,125.00 per point.
Kessel 2013: 20G, 32A, 52Pts, 5.1 million. That's $255,000.00 per goal, $98,076.92 per point.

(Geeez, it must be awesome being a professional hockey player).

So Joshua, I like the approach you are taking here. But, you've done something wonky with the math... Check it again.

Next year, for the record, Kessel's salary goes up to 5.4 million; Seguin 4.5 million (2013-2014), 5.5 (2014-2015), 6.0 (2015-2017).

Source: nhlnumbers.com.

Anyway, if we are talking about who's better? Kessel.
Who takes up fewer roster spots to accomplish the same goals? Kessel (by a mile).
Who's more bang for the buck? Kessel.


For your math to make sense you must be using next years salary with this years points. Face it, Boston got more bang for there buck.

To the point of who is the better player, you are only considering points, this is why I showed you points per million and my math is right.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/26/2013 :  16:05:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock.....the other thing that's more than just slightly flawed is 99% of your argument(s). I'm seriously beginning to question your intent and am thinking you may just be intentionally stirring the pot. It's one thing to have an opinion, but it's another to back it up with such ludicrous claims. Talking about the 3 guys taking up 3 roster spots like it's a bad this is ridiculous! Believing that "the team which gets the better player wins the trade" is another great example of a load of crap! Or how about "Kessel is better because that's who most would draft first in a hockey pool"??? That's prob my favorite "Crockism".

You've conveniently ignored my examples of hypothetical trades but the Sam Pollock saying, while often true, is not a guarantee. Claiming Kessel gets more points is ridiculous too. That's like saying Kunitz is better than Toews and Tavares because he had more points? I'm pretty sure that every GM in the league would take either of those guys on his team over Chris Kunitz.

Or how about, Toews, Sharp and Hossa, for Kuntiz? Nah, Pittsburgh prob wouldn't do it cuz Kunitz got more points than all of them and if he took that package, he'd prob realize that he'd be using up 3 roster spots. NO DEAL!
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Guest4096
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Posted - 06/27/2013 :  05:52:45  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
That's why the old adage - while perhaps being stuff of faeries, unicorns, and Don Cherry - still holds true: Whoever gets the better player wins the trade.

You are using general truths and making a conclusion that it is an absolute truth (law).

It is amazing now that you again change the argument to something else now, roster spots. So how many change of arguments are you going to go through here? You've pretty much lost on every point you've raised.

You know you've lost an argument when you keep on changing topics to argue about. Whatever, your mind is made up regardless of the logic and intelligent counter argument to your adage and fantasies. Toronto winning the cup with Kessel in the next 2-5 yrs. Fairy tales indeed.

Five headed dragon wins. It takes up only 1 roster spots but plays like 5.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2013 :  11:31:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 4096, i wouldn`t call Croc`s claim that ...what if...Toronto wins the cup in the next 2 - 5 years a fairy tale so quickly...if i were you.

Leafs are going all out with this new ownership. They are on a quest to become as great as possible....as soon as possible.

Didn`t you just watch the playoff`s ??

Besides Chicago, who was the only team who ......could even play with the mighty Bruins ???.......you can come back and say what you want but the truth showed in the playoffs, didn`t it now ??

With the exception of Toronto.......Boston went through the other East teams like a hot knife through butter.......including the mighty pens......

Don`t be so quick to write the leafs off my friend.......Toronto WILL play for the stanley cup.....if not next season, the one after that, you wait and see.

Now the first question someone will ask me is........are you seriously claiming that the leafs are better than the Pens ???

After watching the leafs taking the Bruins to 7 gruelling games and then watching Boston totally destroying Sidney and the Pens in 4 games so easily.....

My answer to this question is ......this years Playoff version of the Toronto maple leafs were head and shoulders above this years Playoff version of Sid and the pens.
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Guest4096
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Posted - 06/28/2013 :  13:20:03  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Now the first question someone will ask me is........are you seriously claiming that the leafs are better than the Pens ???

After watching the leafs taking the Bruins to 7 gruelling games and then watching Boston totally destroying Sidney and the Pens in 4 games so easily.....

My answer to this question is ......this years Playoff version of the Toronto maple leafs were head and shoulders above this years Playoff version of Sid and the pens.

Ah yes back to the alternate reality universe where the Leafs did win against the Bruins and hence ran through the Pens like hot knife through butter. Where may I find that universe other than your imagination?

In that alternate reality universe, since they are so close to the cup, wouldn't they go and upgrade their defense core by acquiring Letang immediately? Bring on the cup. Letang helps Kessel wins the cup in Toronto in 2014.

What's that? You don't think trading for Letang is a good idea? Right. Different universe.
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2013 :  13:52:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 4096 - Tut tut tut. Donnie. Donnie. You are out of your element here. You are like a child who wanders in in the middle of a conversation.

Your assertion that I am somehow "changing" the argument is... inaccurate. The argument is still "Toronto won the trade". We are now onto Exhibit 'P' in our discussion. For a full account of everything else that has transpired in the past three years - I wish you luck slogging through the proceeding 13 pages of mayhem. Good luck with that.

[begin mantra here]

Guest 4096, my original point was that the Trade was Phil Kessel for DRAFT PICKS. (Not Seguin, Hamilton and Knight and a ham sandwich.). I believe that somewhere through pages 3-7, I argued (successfully I might add), that players drafted in the 1st Round *only* have about a 25% chance of even making the NHL (players in later Rounds have like a 10% chance of even playing 1 season in the NHL. Stand back and think about that for a minute.

What does that mean? It means a draft pick doesn't have the value that we all think it does.

(unless it's a Top 5 pick - pointed out by somebody in the slog here - but something that wasn't at all certain when Toronto made the trade).

In any event - as I have been saying all along: What if this trade were Phil Kessel for Brett Connolly / Erik Gundbranson (taken 3rd / 4th overall respectively that year), Hamilton and Knight (we'll even throw in the Ham Sandwich)?

Guest 4096 - Welcome to 10 pages ago. Answer that question.

[/end mantra]

Let's move on.

Alex

What hypothetical trades? What did I miss?? Luke Skywalker for a five-headed monster? That's a toughie, certainly. It depends. Do I get any draft picks thrown in with the five-headed monster??

Alex, to field your question about Chris Kunitz: Yes, he is in fact a very good hockey player. A solid veteran presence who's worth 0.70 - 0.80 Points Per Game. Yeah, I want that guy on my Team. Don't you? Anyway, sure. Compare him to Phil Kessel. That's a great player.

But then, Alex... I mean, you are just making this way too easy here. This year, Kunitz puts up 52 points in 48 games playing with... Oh. Right. Sidney Crosby. Um. Duh.

Who did Phil Kessel play with last season? Tyler Bozak?? Come on Alex - are you kidding me? You're going to pull one player out of the Top 30 that some how "doesn't" belong there (Kunitz), and then say there is a flaw in comparing players of similar point totals?? Let's see who else is on that list (#10 in League Scoring):

Pavel Datsyuk
Jonathon Toews
Jon Tavares
Ryan Getzlaf
Claude Giroux

Yeah. Those guys. Phil Kessel beat ALL of them in points last season.

Would a GM take Chris Kunitz over Jonathan Toews? Of course not. Don't be silly. Would a GM take Phil Kessel over Jonathan Toews? Again, I would hope not. Let's not be silly.

Would a GM take Phil Kessel over their 1st-round draft picks for the next two seasons??

In any event, I agree that you can't just look at point totals to determine the value of a player. On the other hand, when a player's point totals are that high - when they are in the Top 10 and they beat out the players on the above list - well... When that happens, you have to concede the point.

Beans - two things:

1 - You say that "every GM in the NHL would take Seguin, Hamilton, Knight (The so-called "Three-Headed Monster" -Seghamilnight) over Phil Kessel any day."

But, I am sorry. I'm going to have to challenge that claim. We don't know if that's true for sure.

I'll put you in Alex's boat here: Would a GM take Phil Kessel over their 1st-round draft picks for the next two seasons??

2 - Yes, I keep comparing them to today. And you should be too. This is the essence of the debate here: Every single one of you in favour of Seguin here seems to think that he is going to "get even better". But, why?

Sure, he's young. He's in his 3rd year in the NHL. He had a great season two years ago; but his point totals were down this season. That's even while playing all season with Patrice "I win faceoffs" Bergeron and Brad "Nails" Marchand. Phil Kessel did better than that playing with... Tyler Bozak and Matt Frattin. (Was it even Matt Frattin??)

But, of course Seguin could get better. So what? Is he going to be a Top 10 Forward like Phil Kessel??

Phil Kessel could also get better. Why is it that "hotshot 22-year-old Tyler Seguin" is "going to get better" while "dinosaur 25-year-old Phil Kessel" is going to do what(?) "stay the same"??

If Kessel "stays the same", there would be absolutely nothing wrong with that. Only 6 players did that this year, and they were named "Crosby", "Ovechkin", "Stamkos", "Kane", "E. Staal" and "God" (Martin St. Louis).

What you are suggesting here, is that Tyler Seguin gets WAY better; while Phil Kessel somehow gets worse. Given that Phil Kessel pretty much just finished in the Top 10 in scoring for two straight years playing with essentially nobody - that's going to be hard to beat. So Seguin will have to go from 0.7 PPG to like 1.1 PPG by next year just to catch up. Are you saying that that's what's going to happen here??

The "essence" here, is that all of you seem to be over-valuing Seguin, while under-valuing Kessel. I have no idea why. Group mentality I think.

I'm offering you a better alternative here. I'm offering you gold: Kessel is better than Seguin - but for some dumb reason, everyone seems to think that Seguin is better. So, perfect. Get Kessel (buy low) in your Pool next year - chuckle to yourself at the guy who picks Seguin (sell high).

Joshua -

You're talking about "bang for buck" - and I like the way you are going with it.

But, I think that we are both wrong with our numbers here. In 2013, Seguin was still earning a "rookie" salary of $850,000 or something like that. Wasn't he?

If that's the case, then we can't compare the two using this standard right now. Of course Seguin wins if he was paid a rookie salary. Let's see what happens next season (Seguin at 4.5 million, Kessel at 5.4 million).

Fat Elvis -

You rock.

OilinOntario -

I love your quotation:

"The Oil WILL make the Playoffs in ____."

I've been reading that for two years now, and still I laugh every single time. I hope you don't have to change 2014 to 2015; because that would be REALLY embarrassing.

Duke -

I'm telling ya man... We are a dying breed. No matter. We are totally going to win our Pools next year. Props.







"The Oil WILL make the Playoffs................ sometime this Century."












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Guest4096
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Posted - 06/28/2013 :  19:50:03  Reply with Quote
I've actually have read the entire thread thank you very much you condescending twit. Your original point has been shot down many a pages ago but you won't read that. It would appear you are the only one who keeps on bringing up it was a trade for picks. True. Those picks are now known as Seguin, Knight and Hamilton. So now we can compare the knowns and not the what ifs of a possible pick in what round at what spot. All variables of the results of the trade are known.

That is why your alternate universe argument of "what if" doesn't work since it can never be proven. The trade is known as Kessel for Seguin, Knight and Hamilton. That's the trade. So it doesn't matter the probability of a first round pick making to the pros is X%. If you are unable to make an argument based on this result of the trade instead of using alternate realities then clearly you have lost.

Nobody is arguing that right now Kessel puts up more points than Seguin. What we do argue about is that points do not necessarily mean a better player, which you have agreed. But you make these wild conclusions that the player with the most points is the best player. And from that wild a$$ conclusion you use another leap based on an adage in an area that doesn't apply where the team that gets the best player wins the trade. I think 9808 pretty much ripped that apart. So if you want to make an argument based on an adage or old wives tale, you've conceded the argument.

Using fantasy hockey as a basis of your argument. Again. You've lost. This is real hockey. Not fantasy. So in fantasy land Toronto won the cup with Phil Kessel. But in the reality they lost to the Bruins in 7. Again see 9808's and Bean's post on how that argument got destroyed with absolutely no logical or sensible rebuttal.

I wouldn't say that Kessel was playing with no talent. Joffrey Lupul is no slouch, since arriving to TO he has been 1+ppg and his presence has direct correlation with Kessel's increased productivity. There is high correlation that Kessel's monthly productivity with the months that Lupul played.

So repeating what 9808 said before, if you've read it: You continue to rotate your argument based on one of these 3 themes fantasy, alternate realities and old wives tales. And 9808 absolutely destroyed you on these 3 points. You got pwnd.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2013 :  23:08:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Alex

What hypothetical trades? What did I miss?? Luke Skywalker for a five-headed monster? That's a toughie, certainly. It depends. Do I get any draft picks thrown in with the five-headed monster??

Seems maybe YOU need to "slog" back through the pages here. Here's one....
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

The whole "the team who got the best player won the trade" theory is simply a cliche! Analysts often say this, however they are usually saying "the team which got the best player USUALLY wins the trade". USUALLY!!!!! Let's look hypothetically....

Oilers deal Hall, Eberle, Gagner, Yakupov, Shultz and 5 first rounders to Tampa for Stamkos. Does Edmonton win the deal because they got the best player?

I won't bother going into more ridiculous deals like this, but i think you get my point.


Or how about this one.....
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

What if the Leafs traded Lupul to the Canucks for Tom Sestito and the Canucks next 10 first rounders? Do the Canucks really win this deal because Lupul is the best player, or do we wait to see what the 10 draft picks turn out to be???



I believe there was at least one more, but i'm tired of looking. Anyway, they're obviously hypothetical to get my point across, but you should understand the point. Sam Pollock came up with a saying. Who says it's true 100% of the time??? You? Lol.....

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Alex, to field your question about Chris Kunitz: Yes, he is in fact a very good hockey player. A solid veteran presence who's worth 0.70 - 0.80 Points Per Game. Yeah, I want that guy on my Team. Don't you? Anyway, sure. Compare him to Phil Kessel. That's a great player.

But then, Alex... I mean, you are just making this way too easy here. This year, Kunitz puts up 52 points in 48 games playing with... Oh. Right. Sidney Crosby. Um. Duh.


Wow! What a great response? You'd get an "error" if this were baseball for the way you "fielded" my question. How exactly am I "making this way too easy" for you? You clearly didn't even read my post very well judging by this reply. Nowhere did I say anything about Kuntiz being or not being a good hockey player. In your high and mighty points is everything theory, I simply explained to you that every GM in the league would choose Tavares or Toews over Kunitz, yet Kunitz scored more points than both of them. In case you didn't figure it out, that was as rebuttal to your attitude towards all things points and who would you draft first in a pool???

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

Who did Phil Kessel play with last season? Tyler Bozak?? Come on Alex - are you kidding me? You're going to pull one player out of the Top 30 that some how "doesn't" belong there (Kunitz), and then say there is a flaw in comparing players of similar point totals?? Let's see who else is on that list (#10 in League Scoring):

Pavel Datsyuk
Jonathon Toews
Jon Tavares
Ryan Getzlaf
Claude Giroux

Yeah. Those guys. Phil Kessel beat ALL of them in points last season.

Ummm, i'm lost here. I don't even know what your point was in this??? Where'd I imply that Kunitz "doesn't belong there"??? I simply made a reference to him being a guy that scored more than many players who are better than he is. AGAIN, this was in response to your "points is everything" attitude!

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Would a GM take Chris Kunitz over Jonathan Toews? Of course not. Don't be silly. Would a GM take Phil Kessel over Jonathan Toews? Again, I would hope not. Let's not be silly.

Would a GM take Phil Kessel over their 1st-round draft picks for the next two seasons??


Here's where the problem lies. Some GM's, depending on their situation, may take the draft picks. You seem to forget that the Bruins needed to shed some salary to be able to sign others they felt were more important to their quest for the cup. Are you gonna tell me they made the wrong choice after winning it once already and losing in the final this year??? Sad part is, you prob will, because Kessel is the best player in the deal (so far).

quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight

In any event, I agree that you can't just look at point totals to determine the value of a player. On the other hand, when a player's point totals are that high - when they are in the Top 10 and they beat out the players on the above list - well... When that happens, you have to concede the point.


What exactly is your point here? What point do I "have to concede"??? Because Kessel outscored a bunch of players who most would agree are more valuable than he is, he's suddenly more valuable? I'm not saying that Kessel isn't currently the best player in this deal. He is, in fact.
This last paragraph is so confusing. At first you seem to go against your "points are everything" theory, only to immediately go back to it??? Please tell me I've misunderstood this last paragraph!!!

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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5799 Posts

Posted - 06/28/2013 :  23:21:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrockOShight
Guest 4096, my original point was that the Trade was Phil Kessel for DRAFT PICKS. (Not Seguin, Hamilton and Knight and a ham sandwich.). I believe that somewhere through pages 3-7, I argued (successfully I might add), that players drafted in the 1st Round *only* have about a 25% chance of even making the NHL (players in later Rounds have like a 10% chance of even playing 1 season in the NHL. Stand back and think about that for a minute.

What does that mean? It means a draft pick doesn't have the value that we all think it does.




Wow. Are you trying to tell us that you think we should judge this trade on the fact the Bruins rec'd draft picks rather than what those draft picks became??? WTF??? This confirms you're just stirring the pot. That's like saying if the Canucks had traded the Sedin twins back in their rookie season for, um, let's say Marty Lapointe, that the Canucks win that deal, right? I mean, if you're not willing to count what the Bruins draft picks became in the Kessel deal, then it's not fair to count what the Sedin's became in this hypothetical deal.

See any flaws in your arguments yet???
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Guest2462
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Posted - 06/29/2013 :  05:37:52  Reply with Quote
As Mr.Spock would say COS, I find your basis for your argument very illogical.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 06/29/2013 :  07:35:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Crock says,

"It's funny that it keeps coming up 'well, Boston won the Cup...' blah blah blah. You know what guys? This trade still hasn't fully played itself out. What's your argument going to be if Toronto wins the Cup with Kessel in the next 2-5 years??????"

The ironic thing about this comment is that it is meant to knock those who consider Boston's 2011 Cup and Seguin's contribution to it in this debate, but in fact this comment indirectly expresses the entire validity of the 2011 Cup contribution point in my opinion.

I can't speak for others here on the pro-Boston side of this debate, but I would indeed, at the very least, consider Crock’s (currently hypothetical) Maple Leafs Cup point in this debate IF Phil makes a key contribution to that (again, to be clear, currently hypothetical) Maple Leafs Cup. But even before that, I would consider Phil's contribution to a (currently hypothetical) key playoff victory as part of a deep Toronto drive. Would at least considering these points be so crazy? Or would perhaps basically dismissing them from the equation the way Crock, Duke and some others here do with Tyler's 2011 contribution be crazier?

But, of course, those Toronto playoff successes haven't happened yet so, when it comes to actual playoff impact anyway, we are left, at this point, with only being able to consider Phil's contribution to the good playoff effort of the Leafs this year. Pretty good - worth considering a bit, sure. But please let me check - we are allowed to consider Phil's contribution to the Leafs almost win against Boston, right Crock and Duke?

In the meantime, as of now, we have the following facts on playoff impact of the trade for Boston:

1) an undeniably key playoff contribution by Seguin in 2011, that helped lead to a Cup
2) a sub-par playoff performance by Seguin in 2013, but still one that included key assists/plays, including one in the Game 7 OT against the Leafs by the way (if this year represents the worst that Tyler has to offer, I’m actually encouraged by that)

And before some of you start shouting "Well, look at the team Tyler is on" we can also stretch our minds a bit so as to recall that Phil in 2009 was on a Boston team perhaps just as well-equipped to win a Cup as any of their teams since (a healthy Bergy, and Marc Savard). Phil's performance was good at times, but inconsistent, and as we know, the Bruins were bounced in the second round that year.

Crock is right at least in saying "This trade still hasn't fully played itself out." But in saying that he is clearly admitting that at, this point, when it comes to playoff impact anyway, the real positive impact for the Leafs is yet to come (yet to come = not actual by the way). He might not also want to admit it, but Boston has the clear edge in the actual playoff impact category. No matter how much one downplays Tyler’s big Tampa games, they are more significant than anything Phil has done in a Leafs uniform in the playoffs.

So even before we consider and speculate on all the other points for the future (the opening up of cap space for Boston, the fact that Boston was able to get as much as they did even though they were in a bad negotiating position, the future prospects of the other guys, Tyler's upside, Phil's upside, possible Leaf success in the future, possible Bruins success in the future, yada, yada, yada), we can clearly check off the “playoff impact of the trade so far” category in Boston’s favor. To me, that has to, at the very least, make it extremely hard for anyone to say that Boston has lost this trade as of now.
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