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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2011 :  10:41:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nux, that might have been the best analogy to this deal I have seen! Brilliant and so close to the truth. Sure, the Leafs got a perennial 30+ goal scorer (maybe even 40 here and there) but at what cost?? Burke gave that IOU without knowing what the costs were. Anyone who thinks he would come out and say it was a bad trade while he is the GM of the Leafs is completely insane. Not only would he seriously limiting his career with the Leafs, he is also far too arrogant to claim to have made a mistake of that magnitude.

Is much as laugh at how hard the Leaf Nation are trying to defend this trade I laugh even harder at what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot. If the Leafs have traded a 30 goal scorer to the Bruins for what turned out to be Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, and Jarrod Knight there would have been claims that Burke could also walk on water! It would be viewed as the most lopsided trade in the history of the game. However, since the deal was the other way around, all of a sudden a 30 goal a year player becomes the most valuable commodity in hockey because it happened 3 years in a row and the deal is more than reasonable because the players are just a bunch of prospects that likely won't turn out to be good players at all!

Seriously laughable.

To the bet about Kessel getting 40 goals?? Nice to see you are ready to bet when he is already a 1/4 of the way there in less than 10 games!! However, I have the stones to take that bet as I took that bet at the start of the year. The terms will have to change as my avatar is already on the line but I am willing to listen to suggestions.

Edited by - Beans15 on 10/25/2011 10:43:27
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2011 :  12:15:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
pc.....i suppose i did miss the point of your question then, care to share it? It read to me that you were wondering if i'd heard Burke mention he wasn't satisfied with the deal. Instead of saying no, i chose to reply with an honest thought that Burke would NEVER admit to not being satisfied with it. It's far too high profile of a deal with all who were involved and as Beans mentioned, he's far too stubborn AND he'd be undermining himself and his job if he did so! It actually quite easy to see imo, especially after having him as a part of the organization you cheer for for many years!

nuxfan's example is perfect. I was gonna offer up something similar but with players rather than jerseys. Suppose Mike Gillis trades Cody Hodgson and a first rounder for Vanek. Looks like a pretty good deal, no? The pick shouldn't be too high and Hodgson hasn't done a lot yet, albeit with little chance to prove himself. However, Gillis wants a scoring winger (no offense David Booth) and he gets one, but suddenly Hodgson becomes a 35 goal / 100 point guy for the next ten years and the pick becomes a solid top 2 dman in the Jack Johnson mold. Yes, he was "satisfied" that he got the scoring winger he wanted, but overall, he would want to take that deal back if he could. Do you think he'd say so?

BTW Beans, i will not rule out Burke walking on water until i see him try. I'm sure he thinks he can, and he owes it to us to prove it, but i'm not betting against it till i see him make a go of it!
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2011 :  16:00:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now I like the arguements and analogies nuxfan and Alex gave this time, it does more for your opinion then just "Burke isnt going to admit he lost a deal because he would lose his job".

I also fully understand both opinions but would like to offer up this. Now I don't think the Leafs have "won" this trade straight up player for player(s). Clearly the Bruins got alot more in a player for player(s) aspect. And Beans can say I am just a Leaf fan trying to justify a poor trade, but I have trouble taking my business hat off when I look at trades in the NHL, no matter what team is involved. Whether teams trade for cap space, or to reach the cap floor, or to make a cup run, or as a method of adding young talent, the trade is made to address your own teams need and if you successfully address that need then it is considered as a "win".
So I am not saying that Burke thinks his trade was a success, I wouldn't possibly be able to know what he thinks, but I would think he has to feel some sort of success with the trade if he feels his needs were met.
Which begs my next question. Forget the player v player aspect of the trade, I think we both agree the Bruins got the better. Do you think Burke successfully addressed his need for a young sniper by adding Kessel.
Secondly to that is if you consider the price Burke paid for Kessel to be too high, wouldn't one have to assume that Burke knew it could cost that much to get him and thus was willing to accept that risk. To use the jersey analogy, you gave the guy a blank IOU for the jersey you just had to have. You must have been comfortable with risk you took knowing the guy might come back with a 3000 dollar bill for you or else you never would have given him the blank IOU to begin with.
Just to be clear to others, I am not really a fan of the Kessel trade but since this topic keeps popping up I thought I would throw a different spin on it that shows there is more to trade then just swapping players or picks.
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2011 :  16:29:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Betcha Burke would trade Komisarek for a Canucks jersey straight up with no regrets.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2012.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2011 :  16:35:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
Which begs my next question. Forget the player v player aspect of the trade, I think we both agree the Bruins got the better. Do you think Burke successfully addressed his need for a young sniper by adding Kessel.
Secondly to that is if you consider the price Burke paid for Kessel to be too high, wouldn't one have to assume that Burke knew it could cost that much to get him and thus was willing to accept that risk. To use the jersey analogy, you gave the guy a blank IOU for the jersey you just had to have. You must have been comfortable with risk you took knowing the guy might come back with a 3000 dollar bill for you or else you never would have given him the blank IOU to begin with.
Just to be clear to others, I am not really a fan of the Kessel trade but since this topic keeps popping up I thought I would throw a different spin on it that shows there is more to trade then just swapping players or picks.



Porkchop - as to point 1, yes, Burke clearly got his scoring winger. But as you say, the Bruins (IMO as well) got the better of the deal player-for-player, so regardless of whether or not Burke got what he felt he needed, this trade is not a success. I don't know how to take the player-v-player aspect out of a trade, given that that is exactly what a trade is.

For example: The Canucks desperately need a scoring winger, so they acquire James Neal from PIT in exchange for the Sedin twins. The Canucks got their scoring winger - was that trade successful for VAN?

As to point 2 - In my scenario, yeah, I would have been very happy with 200, but might have considered "what if the IOU comes back at 500, or even a thousand" - but 3000 would have probably been off my liklihood radar. I suspect that Burke and his team went through a variety of scenario's before they made that deal, but at the end of the day, likely didn't think a lottery-pick finish was a likelihood - otherwise they would not have made the deal. I think Burke seriously over-estimated the chances TOR had (or underestimated other teams), and also overestimated the impact Kessel would have on the Leafs chances. And at the end of the day, a lottery pick was what it cost him.
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Guest8384
( )

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  04:08:11  Reply with Quote
Porkchop typical leaf fan!

In one sentence you say it was a sucess and the next one you say you are justifying a bad trade. Which is it? No GM in their right mind would do that trade today anyway you look at it.Burke also could have gone the offe route and gave up way less. It is his job to make his team the best possible team they can be and he let his ego get in the way. No other explanation.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  10:10:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would love to hear honest feedback from Leaf fans what their thoughts would be if the shoe was on the other foot.

Any Leaf fan who is willing, what would you have thought if you traded Phil Kessel to Boston and received Seguin, Knight, and Hamilton.

Is that a good trade or would you be complaining about losing those 30 goals per year??
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  11:16:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

I would love to hear honest feedback from Leaf fans what their thoughts would be if the shoe was on the other foot.

Any Leaf fan who is willing, what would you have thought if you traded Phil Kessel to Boston and received Seguin, Knight, and Hamilton.

Is that a good trade or would you be complaining about losing those 30 goals per year??



I'd answer the same way I would as a Leaf fan, simple.

(After some gloating about winning the stanley cup of course) I'd say that right now, Phil Kessel is worth more than those three players - but we'll check back and see in three more years and have a better sense of it then.

In7, 8, 9 years we should know for sure.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  11:18:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Nux, that might have been the best analogy to this deal I have seen! Brilliant and so close to the truth. Sure, the Leafs got a perennial 30+ goal scorer (maybe even 40 here and there) but at what cost?? Burke gave that IOU without knowing what the costs were. Anyone who thinks he would come out and say it was a bad trade while he is the GM of the Leafs is completely insane. Not only would he seriously limiting his career with the Leafs, he is also far too arrogant to claim to have made a mistake of that magnitude.

Is much as laugh at how hard the Leaf Nation are trying to defend this trade I laugh even harder at what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot. If the Leafs have traded a 30 goal scorer to the Bruins for what turned out to be Tyler Seguin, Dougie Hamilton, and Jarrod Knight there would have been claims that Burke could also walk on water! It would be viewed as the most lopsided trade in the history of the game. However, since the deal was the other way around, all of a sudden a 30 goal a year player becomes the most valuable commodity in hockey because it happened 3 years in a row and the deal is more than reasonable because the players are just a bunch of prospects that likely won't turn out to be good players at all!

Seriously laughable.

To the bet about Kessel getting 40 goals?? Nice to see you are ready to bet when he is already a 1/4 of the way there in less than 10 games!! However, I have the stones to take that bet as I took that bet at the start of the year. The terms will have to change as my avatar is already on the line but I am willing to listen to suggestions.



I know it's an advantage for me since Kessel already has 9 goals, but that's why I say there is no injury compensations. If Kessel is injured for whatever the time and he cant get to 40 goals because of it. Well I lose.

If you're in I want to bet the signature.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  12:14:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As I said, I will take the bet. However, I have my avatar, my signature, and an essay already on the line. If you can think of any other way you believe I will be humiliated I lose the bet, I am listening.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  13:11:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Same ole crap on this topic....how many times does someone have to write the fact that Burke didn`t trade Seguin, Knight and Hamiliton for kessel....he traded DRAFT PICKS....if the leafs would have finished higher in the standings, ( which i`m sure Burke thought ) then Boston WOULD NOT HAVE SEGUIN...unfortunately for Burke...the leafs BOMBED...

Sam Pollack always said...the winner of every trade is the team who got the BEST PLAYER..., hands down...all other components are simply replaceable parts.

I`ll ask you all a question....who is the best player in this trade ?? What are your thoughts ?? Who do you think is the best player involved in this trade right now ??
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  13:16:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok it's getting complicated to make a bet with you but I have a couple of ideas. Here they are in order of preference.

1. Find the stats of the others choice and post them here. Lets say you would have to find the most penalized team of the 90's. something like that then the other needs to do some research, some math and post the results here. A good stat could take hours to find.

2. Right a poem of 20 verse about the Phil Kessel trade, it would have to rime and go against our belief.

3. Post once a week as a guess and make comments to make the team we cheer for \ the fans of that team, look bad

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Guest2770
( )

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  13:36:49  Reply with Quote
Thats easy. Seguin is the best player right now. He leads the defending Stanley cup champs in points. He has played more playoff games for his team than Kessel and has also won the Stanley cup.
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fanoleaf
Rookie



143 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  14:32:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans the trade was made for draft picks and not Seguin, Hamilton and Knight. It is now reality that these are the players that the draft picks transformed into.

I do not think it is unreasonable to trade 3 picks for a young 30+ goal scorer, and If I were GM I would make a trade for a young 30+ goal scorer, giving up the 3 picks. This would also have to factor in where I saw my team finishing.

Nobody knows for sure, but IMO I do not think Burke anticipated his team finishing as low as they did. He believed in his team, and they did not produce and/ or were not good enough.

One thing that must also be considered is a poor finish could happen to any team in the league due many circumstances.... injuries for example or your team crapping the bed. These are the calculated risks that are take. Take a look at where the Habs currently stand. I do not think you would find many people that would have predicted the Habs would be sitting in the basement this year. Most predicted fighting it out for the 7-9 spot.

As a GM would I make the trade for Kessell, giving up Seguin, Hamilton and Kight...... likely not. But of note, those picks could have been many other players. I think the trade is easier to make based on it being picks as opposed to these players that netted out of the draft picks. I almost feel in some way that it is comparing two different things.


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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1315 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  15:15:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's where I stand in a nutshell on the trade.

At the time the trade was made, Burke over-paid for Kessell. As I see it, Kessell is a 30 a year goal scorer, but one-dimensional. His defensive abilities lack, and playmaking, doesn't seem to come as natural to him either.

What Burke DID do, is add scoring to the Leafs. Something, they were lacking. And, he did so with a young player who has the potential to improve.

Now, looking at things in retrospect... who these picks turned in to, etc... It becomes quite the over-payment.

He could have had a player in Seguin, who likely will become the level of Kessell, just in a couple years time. Not to mention, a couple of other youngster who would help the developing youth-movement in Toronto.

In a sense, Burke got what he wanted. A player, of NHL caliber at the time of the trade, who would add needed scoring. For, a top 5 pick that likely would turn in to what he needed, but later than he needed it. Plus, a couple of extras who were not AS likely to succeed.

Do I see a major loss here for Toronto? Not really. They got what they wanted out of the deal. But, do I value Phil as much as Burke did? Certainly not.



Irvine/prez.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  15:43:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8384

Porkchop typical leaf fan!

In one sentence you say it was a sucess and the next one you say you are justifying a bad trade. Which is it? No GM in their right mind would do that trade today anyway you look at it.Burke also could have gone the offe route and gave up way less. It is his job to make his team the best possible team they can be and he let his ego get in the way. No other explanation.





You are wonderful mr guest. I now understand why others get mad at Leaf fans if we are as short sighted as you mr. guest.

First off, I did not declare this trade successful, I put it out there to see IF the trade could be considered a success because Burke was able to address his need no matter what the cost. Yes I took the position to argue that maybe it was successful because of that. Now Nuxfan has made some great arguements and analogies to show why it can't be considered a success just because Torontos needs were met. Certainly alot more thoughtful and insightful then "No other explanation". That is what debating a point is all about and certainly you get more respect when engaging the topic like Nuxfan did to make his point instead of "typical Leafs Fan". I now no why Beans gets mad when I call him a Leaf hater.

Second off Mr. Guest. You are confused, Beans was the one who said I was trying to justify a poor trade and I was just referencing his statement. For me to feel I have to justify this trade would insinuate that I have a vested interest in the Leafs "winning" this trade. I am just a Leaf fan and as that all I want is to watch them play and hopefully win. Sure I have an opinion on trades they make but I certainly I am not required to justify them. Thats up to the Leafs brass themselves.

Lastly, since some knucklhead had brought this topic to life again I thought I would get a little debate going different from the usual comparison of Kessel, Seguin thing. I enjoy doing that and PUH forums has some really good members that bring great points and opinions so it makes it fun.

I can't believe I will agree with a Sens fan, but Irvine pretty much sums up what I think about the trade.

"Do I see a major loss here for Toronto? Not really. They got what they wanted out of the deal. But, do I value Phil as much as Burke did? Certainly not."

So I ask you Guest why is it that I am a typical Leaf fan. Seems to me your a typical Leaf hater. (Sorry Beans, I know you don't like that but he made me do it).




Edited by - Porkchop73 on 10/26/2011 15:49:59
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  16:32:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some good posts there (recent). I think everyone would agree that Burke DID NOT expect the Leafs to be so dismal that year that the Bruins would pick at 2. I think everyone would also agree, had he known, he wouldn't have pulled the trigger on that deal! As has been said, dealing picks is always risky!

As for Duke mentioning Sam Pollock's words "the winner of every trade is the team who got the BEST PLAYER..., hands down...all other components are simply replaceable parts.", i couldn't disagree more. In most trades this is true, but are you going to tell me that Florida wins the following trade?

To FLA: Jamie Benn
To DAL: Kris Versteeg and FLA's next five first rounders???

Sure, far fetched, but you catch my drift. I'm pretty sure Sam Pollock was saying that in regards to player for player swaps, and not including "future considerations" or draft picks, which Montreal always seemed to steal as part of deals!

As far as the Kessel trade, the biggest problem i have with what Burke did, including the risk he took with those picks, is that even with Kessel and even though he's young, they, imo, were/are still far off competing for the cup so why mortgage the future (draft picks) rather than build through the draft? One sniper, isn't gonna make you a serious contender and i think Kessel has proven that.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  17:06:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
First off, the trade was for draft picks. But those draft picks are now players. You can argue until the cows come home about what could have or should have been and if the Leafs would have or could have. It's not like a draft pick is leading the Bruins in scoring. That is a player. One can not deny the exact players involved in this deal today. Those draft picks are now players.

Secondly, no I don't think that 2-1st round and a 3rd round draft pick is worth a 30 goal a year scorer. Not at all. I don't care if Kessel scores 30 goals a year for every year for the next 3 years, that is not worth 2 corner stone players.

Thirdly, the argument of the best player is interesting. My opinion is that if we were talking about the best pure goal scorer, Kessel would be the best in this trade. However, I personally see Seguin as at worst a comparable player overall and maybe even a better player today. Sure, Seguin will not like match Kessel's goal totals and might not match his point total. But overall offense will be close. More importantly, Kessel is still one-dimensional. Forgive the crudeness but Phil Kessel's game is get puck, skate fast, find space, shoot puck. Tyler Seguin is a better passer, better defensive player, and thinks the game better than Phil Kessel. That's just 10 games into his 2nd season.

That is not even considering the other 2 players in the deal.


One more things to Leafs fans, if you will:

If this trade didn't happen and the stars aligned the same way meaning the Leafs have Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight at their disposal. Are they a better, worse, or about the same team today??? Do you think they would be a better, worse, or the same team in 2-3 years???

Edited by - Beans15 on 10/26/2011 17:11:34
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  17:19:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81

Ok it's getting complicated to make a bet with you but I have a couple of ideas. Here they are in order of preference.

1. Find the stats of the others choice and post them here. Lets say you would have to find the most penalized team of the 90's. something like that then the other needs to do some research, some math and post the results here. A good stat could take hours to find.

2. Right a poem of 20 verse about the Phil Kessel trade, it would have to rime and go against our belief.

3. Post once a week as a guess and make comments to make the team we cheer for \ the fans of that team, look bad





I like the poem idea but I think 20 verses is a little long. How about a 20-25 line poem. The bet is:

If Phil Kessel scores 40 or more goals, I will write a poem singing his virtues.

If Phil Kessel scores 39 or less goals, you will write a poem about why Phil Kessel is over-rated.


Deal??
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  17:50:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Love the whole peom bet. Should be interesting and it is quite risk for Beans to take I must add considering the start Kessel has had. By no means do I think his start assures him 40 goals but it does add a little risk for someone taking that bet

To answer your question Beans.

I am not sure if the Leafs would be a better team or not. If you take away Kessel and add a 2 yrs younger Seguin I think you definetly lose some scoring ability and slightly delay the rebuild. The problem I see is that if Seguin was in TO last year he would not have the talent surrounding him as he did in Boston. IMO that helps build a kid into a player. He has the talent, no doubt about it, but I think had he ended up in TO it actually might have hurt him. Having said that, had Burke not made the Kessel deal maybe he could have landed a bigger fish that could have played with Seguin. I also feel that at this point I can't include Hamilton or Knight in the picture because they are unproven and may be 2 or 3 yrs from the NHL. Knight I am hearing may be fringe NHLr but I am not following them closely. Given todays make up of the Leafs I believe they are better today with Kessel then they would be if they had Seguin. But I believe 2 or 3 yrs from now, they likely would have been better if they had gotten Seguin.
I have no idea if what I just said makes any sense at all.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  18:21:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I know one thing for sure ( after watching the leafs games so far this season ) theres not a chance in hell the leafs have the record they have without kessel.

This guy has been a game winner each and every game this season, unbelievable. What he has done for the leafs in the first 7 - 8 games is unreal, without him so far this season, theres no way the leafs have 2 wins....Maximum 4 pts for the leafs in the standings without kessel.

Has Seguin done this for Boston so far this season ?? I don`t think so. He may ( Seguin ) do so in the future but for now, kessel may be the most valuable player ( to his team ) in the entire league....so far in this young season.
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TheRC
Rookie



105 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2011 :  18:29:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Would I rather have had Kessel versus Seguin, Hamilton and Knight for the past two seasons? Yes.

Would I rather have Kessel versus Seguin, Hamilton and Knight this season? Yes, though for the first time it's something to think about.

Next season that will probably be a really tough question to answer, and allow me to admit that if predictions pan out, in the future the answer will be tilting further and further towards making Seguin, Hamilton and Knight the obvious answer each season.

Would I be happy having Seguin in the lineup and the other two prospects in the Leafs system? I sure would. But as a Leaf fan I'm quite content watching Kessel too.

Will I say the Leafs won the trade? Nope. But I won't say they got their pants pulled down either. The team needed a guy like Kessel, and they got him. He was expensive, but he HAS been doing exactly what Burke got him to do, so you can't go saying this is one of the worst trades ever. Besides, I'm not sure what they teach in Edmonton, but the job of a GM is to try and put a winning team on the ice, not to tank for draft picks, and anybody who says otherwise ought to be embarassed.

"If at first you don't succeed, you fail"
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  03:35:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81

Ok it's getting complicated to make a bet with you but I have a couple of ideas. Here they are in order of preference.

1. Find the stats of the others choice and post them here. Lets say you would have to find the most penalized team of the 90's. something like that then the other needs to do some research, some math and post the results here. A good stat could take hours to find.

2. Right a poem of 20 verse about the Phil Kessel trade, it would have to rime and go against our belief.

3. Post once a week as a guess and make comments to make the team we cheer for \ the fans of that team, look bad





I like the poem idea but I think 20 verses is a little long. How about a 20-25 line poem. The bet is:

If Phil Kessel scores 40 or more goals, I will write a poem singing his virtues.

If Phil Kessel scores 39 or less goals, you will write a poem about why Phil Kessel is over-rated.


Deal??



Deal.

But a verse is the same thing as a line so 20 verse/line??
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  05:25:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow - Saddam would have called this the "MOTHER OF ALL THREADS"!
Slozo - my tounge is actually well out of my cheek (for the most part) with my point of view here.
A guest or two and Willus got that point early on, but it seems to have been dismissed otherwise.

Anyway, here goes. I'll try again, and I'll do it like Denzel Washington requested in Philadelphia, when he asked the witness to "explain it like I am a three year old."

1. Is the question of this thread whether Toronto made a terrible, or even a bad, trade? (Hint: the answer is the opposite of yes)

2. Is the question of this thread basically who is winning this trade as of now, with some guesses as to the future? (Hint: the answer is the opposite of no)?

3. What is the ultimate goal that teams play for each year? (Hint: its silver)

4. What player in this trade has made a significant actual contribution to the achievement of that ultimate goal? (Hint: it's not the guy on Toronto --- for the Duke and others to believe that, it might be necessary to repeat the word actual about 77 times)

5. Which is more ridiculous: to underestimate the importance of a big game at a crucial time leading to that ultimate goal, or to overestimate the importance of a big game at a crucial time leading to that ultimate goal? (Hint: remember that the ultimate goal is why players play and fans watch)

6. Even if Phil Kessel is now, or goes on to be, an "elite player" and Tyler Seguin goes on to be just a "fair player," are there not two other players, with at least some potential, that Boston received in the deal? (Hint: the answer here starts with a y)

7. Isn't it far more likely that Tyler Seguin goes on to be at least a "good player" rather than a "fair player" thereby lessoning the gap, assuming there is one, between him and Phil Kessel even if Phil Kessel becomes an "elite player"? (Okay, I admit that this is a tough one for a 3 year old, BUT, Hint: Seguin is doin' just fine so far this year)

8. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 above, is it therefore possible for Phil Kessel to be now, or to go on to be, an "elite player" and for Boston to still be the answer to the question of this thread? (Hint: the answer starts with y, ends with an s, and has an e in the middle)

9. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 above, is it even remotely possible that Peter Chiarelli regrets making this trade or in any way thinks that he is "losing" on this trade now? (Hint: the answer has two letters, one is an o and the other is an n)

10. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 above, how in the hell is Toronto winning this trade as of now? I need the hints on this one! In the future, possibly sure (e.g., if all the Boston guys go sour and Phil continues this pace and helps the Leafs to glory), but any argument that they are winning as of now just does not compute with this oldtimer.
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Guest4240
( )

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  10:07:40  Reply with Quote
Everyone keeps "re-asking" this question every single night and especially after their favorite scored points, or their non-favorite had a bad night.
End this already - you're all making yourselves look pretty childish. It was NEVER a "trade"... like someone recently mentioned in his post.
Its not like the two GM's got together and moved these two players... ?!?
What a stupid thread
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  10:36:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Even if the trade was for draft picks, those picks will eventually become players. The caliber of draft picks is what the deal is about. The Leafs did not trade late first rounders, they traded very early 1st rounders. If this deal turned out to be Kessel for two 1st round draft picks in the 25+ range that we are not having this argument.

The players involved could also be irrelevant. It's the caliber of players involved. This deal could just as easily turned out to involved Taylor Hall, Jeff Skinner, or Brett Connolly from the 2010 draft or Sean Couturier, Mark Sheifele, or Jonas Brodin from the 2011 draft.

So even those who say this was a trade for draft picks, there is a certain caliber of player that comes with a #2, a #9 and a #32 draft pick. It's my opinion that you can not ignore the reality of the actual players who are involved. However, if you choose to ignore that, you still can not ignore the caliber of players at that draft level. One could say the Leafs expected to trade later round draft picks but that did not happen.

To liken the IOU analogy of Nux fan, it wasn't quite a blank IOU that Burke sent over to Boston. He sent the IOU with the numbers #22, #25, and #40 (as an example) written in pencil. The Leafs then had to grab that IOU back at the end of the past two seasons and change those numbers to #2, #32, and #9.

Can anyone argue that as factual??

Edited by - Beans15 on 10/27/2011 10:48:21
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  10:37:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4240
End this already - you're all making yourselves look pretty childish. It was NEVER a "trade"... like someone recently mentioned in his post.
Its not like the two GM's got together and moved these two players... ?!?
What a stupid thread



Huh??? Please excuse this child, but i'm curious as to what exactly it was if it wasn't in fact, a trade???
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  11:04:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

[quote]Originally posted by Guest4240
End this already - you're all making yourselves look pretty childish. It was NEVER a "trade"... like someone recently mentioned in his post.
Its not like the two GM's got together and moved these two players... ?!?
What a stupid thread



Huh??? Please excuse this child, but i'm curious as to what exactly it was if it wasn't in fact, a trade???


To please this guest we will not call it a trade, from now how we will call it an exchange.
And i am pretty sure that Burke and Chiarelli did get together and exchanged Kessel for draft picks. And yes Beans those draft picks now have the names Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight.

Edited by - Porkchop73 on 10/27/2011 11:24:44
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  11:24:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack

Wow - Saddam would have called this the "MOTHER OF ALL THREADS"!
Slozo - my tounge is actually well out of my cheek (for the most part) with my point of view here.
A guest or two and Willus got that point early on, but it seems to have been dismissed otherwise.

Anyway, here goes. I'll try again, and I'll do it like Denzel Washington requested in Philadelphia, when he asked the witness to "explain it like I am a three year old."

1. Is the question of this thread whether Toronto made a terrible, or even a bad, trade? (Hint: the answer is the opposite of yes)

2. Is the question of this thread basically who is winning this trade as of now, with some guesses as to the future? (Hint: the answer is the opposite of no)?

3. What is the ultimate goal that teams play for each year? (Hint: its silver)

4. What player in this trade has made a significant actual contribution to the achievement of that ultimate goal? (Hint: it's not the guy on Toronto --- for the Duke and others to believe that, it might be necessary to repeat the word actual about 77 times)

5. Which is more ridiculous: to underestimate the importance of a big game at a crucial time leading to that ultimate goal, or to overestimate the importance of a big game at a crucial time leading to that ultimate goal? (Hint: remember that the ultimate goal is why players play and fans watch)

6. Even if Phil Kessel is now, or goes on to be, an "elite player" and Tyler Seguin goes on to be just a "fair player," are there not two other players, with at least some potential, that Boston received in the deal? (Hint: the answer here starts with a y)

7. Isn't it far more likely that Tyler Seguin goes on to be at least a "good player" rather than a "fair player" thereby lessoning the gap, assuming there is one, between him and Phil Kessel even if Phil Kessel becomes an "elite player"? (Okay, I admit that this is a tough one for a 3 year old, BUT, Hint: Seguin is doin' just fine so far this year)

8. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 above, is it therefore possible for Phil Kessel to be now, or to go on to be, an "elite player" and for Boston to still be the answer to the question of this thread? (Hint: the answer starts with y, ends with an s, and has an e in the middle)

9. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 above, is it even remotely possible that Peter Chiarelli regrets making this trade or in any way thinks that he is "losing" on this trade now? (Hint: the answer has two letters, one is an o and the other is an n)

10. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 above, how in the hell is Toronto winning this trade as of now? I need the hints on this one! In the future, possibly sure (e.g., if all the Boston guys go sour and Phil continues this pace and helps the Leafs to glory), but any argument that they are winning as of now just does not compute with this oldtimer.




So you're saying that Tyler Seguin is better then Marcel Dionne or Jarome Iginla??? And he already has a more accomplished career???

I can't stand that argument of he won a cup he's better. There is many players that won a cup that are worst then players that never got it.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  11:33:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81

quote:
Originally posted by andyhack

Wow - Saddam would have called this the "MOTHER OF ALL THREADS"!
Slozo - my tounge is actually well out of my cheek (for the most part) with my point of view here.
A guest or two and Willus got that point early on, but it seems to have been dismissed otherwise.

Anyway, here goes. I'll try again, and I'll do it like Denzel Washington requested in Philadelphia, when he asked the witness to "explain it like I am a three year old."

1. Is the question of this thread whether Toronto made a terrible, or even a bad, trade? (Hint: the answer is the opposite of yes)

2. Is the question of this thread basically who is winning this trade as of now, with some guesses as to the future? (Hint: the answer is the opposite of no)?

3. What is the ultimate goal that teams play for each year? (Hint: its silver)

4. What player in this trade has made a significant actual contribution to the achievement of that ultimate goal? (Hint: it's not the guy on Toronto --- for the Duke and others to believe that, it might be necessary to repeat the word actual about 77 times)

5. Which is more ridiculous: to underestimate the importance of a big game at a crucial time leading to that ultimate goal, or to overestimate the importance of a big game at a crucial time leading to that ultimate goal? (Hint: remember that the ultimate goal is why players play and fans watch)

6. Even if Phil Kessel is now, or goes on to be, an "elite player" and Tyler Seguin goes on to be just a "fair player," are there not two other players, with at least some potential, that Boston received in the deal? (Hint: the answer here starts with a y)

7. Isn't it far more likely that Tyler Seguin goes on to be at least a "good player" rather than a "fair player" thereby lessoning the gap, assuming there is one, between him and Phil Kessel even if Phil Kessel becomes an "elite player"? (Okay, I admit that this is a tough one for a 3 year old, BUT, Hint: Seguin is doin' just fine so far this year)

8. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 above, is it therefore possible for Phil Kessel to be now, or to go on to be, an "elite player" and for Boston to still be the answer to the question of this thread? (Hint: the answer starts with y, ends with an s, and has an e in the middle)

9. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 above, is it even remotely possible that Peter Chiarelli regrets making this trade or in any way thinks that he is "losing" on this trade now? (Hint: the answer has two letters, one is an o and the other is an n)

10. Given 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 above, how in the hell is Toronto winning this trade as of now? I need the hints on this one! In the future, possibly sure (e.g., if all the Boston guys go sour and Phil continues this pace and helps the Leafs to glory), but any argument that they are winning as of now just does not compute with this oldtimer.




So you're saying that Tyler Seguin is better then Marcel Dionne or Jarome Iginla??? And he already has a more accomplished career???

I can't stand that argument of he won a cup he's better. There is many players that won a cup that are worst then players that never got it.



Moreover, this post also implies that in order to be the "winner" in any trade, you must win the cup since that is the ultimate goal.

and it cannot be overstated that this post is also implying that Seguin actually won the cup for the Bruins with his one game performance. Quite a slap in the face for the Bruins other playoff rookie who out performed Seguin by a ton and was way more instrumental in the Bruins being the "Champians"
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  14:37:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andyhack...Seguin happening to be part of a true stanley cup team doesn`t relate at all to who is the better player...thats hogwash. Do you think if kessel was with the Bruins last season they wouldn`t have won the stanley cup ???

What are you saying ??? Seguin is better because the Bruins TEAM, or should i say Tim Thomas and company won the cup ?? Thats utter childish nonsense and logically f**8ed up.

Answer this question for me Andyhack, truely give your honest opinion...If kessel played with the Bruins last season....which player would have the most goals and points in the stanley cup playoffs ??? kessel or Seguin ??

Obviously with your logic and way of thinking the answer to this question is the better player.

Beans you say the leafs...
Did not trade late first rounders.....
They traded early first rounders......

No they didn`t...where did you come up with this....they did neither.

The leafs traded first rounders...Not early...Not late...simply first rounders...at the time of the trade ( which you are refering to ) the value of these first rounders was simply speculation...anyones guess......So you are wrong to say ....the leafs traded early first rounders when at the time of the trade these picks were neither Early or Late.

If you said...after seasons end, the leafs ended up trading picks which ended up being early first rounders...you would be correct....but very wrong saying the leafs traded early first rounders...this was impossible to do at the time of the trade.

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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  16:12:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 4240 - Childish? Hmm, yeah, I guess sometimes. I'll plead guilty - it helps keep the heart young.

Leafs 81 - So Kessel is going to be Dionne or Ignilia? Pretty lofty sights, but okay, hypothetically, if he ends up being a superduperstar like Dionne the dynamic changes, but that doesn't mean we dismiss Seguin's big game in last year's playoffs in this analysis. AND even if Kessel becomes Dionne-like, what if Seguin becomes pretty darn good too, let's sat Ratelle-like, and at least one of the others turns into a pretty good player. You still have an interesting question there as to who won this trade 15 years from now. AND, even then we would have to remember Seguin's big game and factor it into the equation. It's not the be all and end all. And certainly if he had just sat throughout I wouldn't be mentioning it. BUT he came up big when the team needed, when in fact huge focus was on him because of Bergeron's injury. Never forget that.

Porkchop - I am NOT saying that "in order to be the 'winner' in any trade, you must win the cup since that is the ultimate goal." I simply am saying that IF you contribute bigtime to a cup it is definitely something to be strongly considered in this question (not to be underestimated). AND I am not implying that Seguin alone won the Cup with that big game. I am just saying it was a significant piece of the puzzle and that, of the guys in this trade as of now (which is all we really know when you come right down to it), Seguin is the only guy you can say "came up huge when called on in a big game that contributed to a Cup."

Duke - I think I answered the same question for Slozo a few months ago. Probably Kessel would have gotten more goals, points. Now please go back to the mirror and repeat "actual" another 77 times for the answer to my question about contribution to the Cup. AND, I am NOT saying Seguin is the better player because of the Cup. I mean (and I'm trying to be polite here), but please read my earlier post more closely. One of the main points is that Kessel can end up being a far better player than Seguin and Boston can still be ahead in who won this trade. I admit that if that happens the question becomes a lot more interesting. My whole point is that, as of now, with what's on the table (both in terms of actual results and future prospects) Boston is clearly ahead here.

Edited by - andyhack on 10/27/2011 16:29:29
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  20:03:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
andyhack, the only reason you and others get some strong view points from leaf fans on this topic is because./...as leaf fans we constantly have to defend kessel for being an elite player.

kessel is among the brightest young stars in the game today...but because he wears a leaf jersey...this trade sucks.

Can you imagine if kessel had bombed during his tenure in Toronto so far...what would be said then ?? He has scored goals on a Matt Sundin basis so far in leaf land...but still leaf haters still say the trade sucks....come on, give the guy credit.

Some have even went so far as saying that it was one of the worst trades in NHL history...really ??? If kessel went to Detroit would these same statements be made ??

Toronto has obtained a bright young star who is well capable of scoring 400 - 500 goals in his career...but of course its one of the worst trades in league history...gimme a break.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2011 :  22:39:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
kessel is among the brightest young stars in the game today...but because he wears a leaf jersey...this trade sucks.



Duke, i def have no love for the Leafs, but this is where you and many other Leafers are sooooo wrong. It's not a hatred for the Leafs that makes people think this trade sucks. The bottom line is, yes, they got what they wanted, but it ended up costing them too much. True, Burke didn't expect the first rounder to be 2 overall, but that's a risk he took by overestimating his team. The fault clearly lies with him! He made the trade, or "exchange" (is that what we decided to call if for one of our guests who somehow didn't consider it a "trade"???). I've asked this many times, and i'll ask it again. As a Leaf fan, if you could have Kessel right now, or Seguin, Knight and Hamilton, which package would you choose. Please, and i beg you, PLEASE, don't give me the response that it wasn't those guys, it was picks! Just answer the question. Then, you'll see where those who feel they gave up too much for Kessel, are coming from! And, FTR, i don't consider it even close to the worst trade ever! However, if Segin starts putting up 120 pts a year and Knight and Hamilton become all stars, it may just squeeze into the top 2 or 3 worst of all time?


Andyhack..... I'm sure i've made it clear in this thread and others that i fully agree that Boston won this trade! However, i personally, put far less, and almost no weight on Seguin's one game performance in the playoffs last year when evaluating the trade. We'll never know, but had he not dressed for that game, someone else may have been the hero? We'll never know, but i just can't see how that one game can enter the equation whatsoever. Just my opinion, just like me thinking Boston won the trade.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  04:49:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
His comes down to rue definition of elite yet again and I emphatically disagree that Phil Kessel is one of the brightest young stars in the game today regardless of what logo is on the front or his jersey. I don't see him as a top forward let alone one of the top players. That is pure Leaf bias the other way. How do you expect credibility by
making statements like that. He gets 30 goals and/or 60ish points every year. 35 to 40 players a year can be lumped into that pile or do that or better. How is that elite?

And your comments about if he went to another team it would heve been a better deal which is simply false. Bad trades are bad trades period.

Finally, I just wanted to say that at Kessel's current pace he will hit 400 goals somewhere near his 34th birthday. That means no injuries, no slow down in production, nothing. 1200 games without injury or slow down of any way and that is for 400 goals. Will be closer to 38 to score 500 goals. Not likely.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4578 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  05:09:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually, it truly IS a hatred of Toronto that brings this on the Leafs. I know it, because I have lived it for over thirty years . . . travelling all over the country. It's hatred and bias, pure and simple, and you will never get it unless you are a Leaf fan.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest4240
( )

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  05:57:09  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

[quote]Originally posted by Guest4240
End this already - you're all making yourselves look pretty childish. It was NEVER a "trade"... like someone recently mentioned in his post.
Its not like the two GM's got together and moved these two players... ?!?
What a stupid thread



Huh??? Please excuse this child, but i'm curious as to what exactly it was if it wasn't in fact, a trade???


To please this guest we will not call it a trade, from now how we will call it an exchange.
And i am pretty sure that Burke and Chiarelli did get together and exchanged Kessel for draft picks. And yes Beans those draft picks now have the names Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight.


Try to think back a little, kid, the trade was Kessel for first round draft picks.
Maybe we were not in the same room as you, Burke, and Chiarelli were when Chiarelli agreed to let Kessel go if Toronto finished last so Bruins can get Seguin. We are not as fortunate as you were to be in that room – so yes, you know more than we do.
The rest of us were led to believe that the trade was Kessel for picks. You were there, so you knew the trade was Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight… otherwise Chiarelli would not have made the trade.
You must also be the first in line with all the other children at the mall for pictures with Santa.
So, let’s see where we are after last night since both players played:
Seguin at 0 goals, 0 assists, and 4 shots.
Kessel at 0 goals, 1 assist, and 5 shots.
YAY!!!!! Leafs won the trade!!! Now go get your picture with Santa!
And let’s wait and see what happens on Saturday night when they will both play again. We’ll see if Leafs or Bruins won the trade then?!!?
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  06:14:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Actually, it truly IS a hatred of Toronto that brings this on the Leafs. I know it, because I have lived it for over thirty years . . . travelling all over the country. It's hatred and bias, pure and simple, and you will never get it unless you are a Leaf fan.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Actually, it truly IS a hatred of Toronto that brings this on the Leafs. I know it, because I have lived it for over thirty years . . . travelling all over the country. It's hatred and bias, pure and simple, and you will never get it unless you are a Leaf fan.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug


I am not saying Leaf bias does not exist and acknowledged that earlier this season. However, I completely disagree that this being a bad deal has anything to do with the team involved. At least not from my perspective. I am basing it on the players involved. If the Oilers had Phil Kessel and gave up Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight to get him I would be beyond angry. I don't think there is a word that could express how upset I would be.  I was critical of the Oilers for trading for Smyth and many if the contracts they signed in the past. I can see what I consider are mistakes the Oilers have made and make bold statements about them. My thoughts and opinions about trades are based on the players involved and what the needs of each team is. In this case, I don't think the Leafs received value for the draft picks they moved and I believe the Leafs would be as good today with Seguin and crew than with Kessel. I strongly beleive they would be a far better team in the next 5 yrs without Kessel and with Seguin and crew. I dont think the Leafs needed to give up thier future for a player of Kessels caliber. Leaf bias has nothing to do with that. 



What about the vomit inducing arrogant attitude that Leafs fans portray? Not all Leaf fans but there is some commonality that is the same all of the county too and I have to live with it everyday. It's the attitude where no deal is ever bad when the Leafs are involved, every call against the Leafs is wrong, and everyone picks on the Leafs just because of hatred and/or jealousy. Those fans simply can not fathom that someone can have a differing yet valid opinion that contradicts that of the omniscient Leaf fan so the settle on the Lead bias defense all the time. You can't understand it because you are a Leaf fan. Pure and simple. 
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  07:53:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Beans, that can be said about all fans, especially fans of the Canadian teams who somehow are extremely attached to the favourite teams. Its in our blood. I am not knocking american fans just Canadians seem to take it to a whole other level. However I would say Leafs and Habs fans are the worst because there is many more of them.

Back to the trade. Beans where do you get your value of Hamilton and Knight in this trade. To mean you are placing alot of value on two players who haven't even seen NHL game action and especially Knight who most think is a fringe NHL'r and most likely a career minor leaguer.

As I posted earlier, I too agree that down the road the Leafs may be better off 5 yrs down the road with Seguin, but that also depends on the team they build around that. The problem I have with saying they would be better is obviously Burke would have built the team alot differently had he stuck with the draft picks. Also you can't say that Burke would have taken Hamilton or Knight like Boston did. He most likely would have taken Seguin for sure but there are too many unknowns if that is the path Burke would have taken.
If you are just asking would I take Seguin instead of Kessel as the team is today. Tough question because you eliminate the one real scoring threat TO has with Kessel. Today Seguin is not yet a 30 goal scorer. So I take Kessel as it stands today. 5 yrs from now, Seguin could definitely be that centremen that Burke desperately wants today. So yes I think the Leafs could be better with Seguin 5 yrs from now if he turns into what everyone thinks he will. I am not including the other picks because I personnally can't see their value at the NHL level just yet.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2011 :  08:40:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My value of Hamilton and Knight are based mostly on the views of Hockey Futures. I know they are not the end all/be all and some will most likely attack me for using them, but that is who I use. Consider that Seguin is Boston's #1 centre today, Hamilton is listed as their #1 prospect talent, and Hamilton is rated their #3 talent, that trade set up Boston for potentially the next decade. Here is the Hockey Futures statements on Dougie Hamilton:

The sky’s the limit for Hamilton. He has all the tools to become a number one defenseman in the NHL. Comparisons have ranged from Brent Burns to Rob Blake, the former being the comp Peter Chiarelli has used. But patience is needed in terms of his immediate future. He’s grown so much, so fast that he’s rail thin, and needs at least another year to fill out his massive frame.

Also, I am interested to see these projections of Knight being a 'marginal' NHLer. Hockey Futures says this about Knight:

At approximately 205lbs, and with his simple, straight-line approach, Knight could potentially play in the NHL right now. But being able to play and being ready to contribute are two very different things and Knight may be better served by continuing to develop his offensive game in junior, and on the world stage for Team USA at the World Junior championships. Regardless of whether he makes the team this year or the year after, Knight has a very low bust factor and a bright future as a Ryan Callahan-type.

You are 100% right in that it would not be likely that Burke would have drafted the same players. However, what could he have done with those draft picks?? Who's to say that they Leafs would not have finished worse than they did without Kessel?? As most of Leaf Nation attests, Kessel has made the team better. So the past 2 years without Kessel would have been likely worst in the way of the standings and better in the way of draft position.

Let's not forget that Burke was also the orchestrator of the deal that gave Vancouver the #1 and #2 overall picks to get the Sedin's. Who's say that Burke would not have traded up at got both Taylor Hall and Tyler Seguin in last years draft?? Would that not have been a very Kessel -ike player plus a legitimate #1 centre that the Leafs are still searching for?? Who's to say the Leafs would not have had a lottery pick again last season?

Point being, this trade is still not reasonable to fully assess. Up until this point, I can't say it is anything more than a draw or a marginal win for either team depending on your view of players. I like Seguin's game more than Kessel's however it is hard to argue Kessel's performance in the past 3 seasons and the start of this season. Some believe the Cup in Boston's hands and the impact Seguin had to help get them to the Promised Land give him a leg up?? Regardless of today, I truly believe that in the next 3-5 years the Leaf Nation will still not have much success as a team and will be thinking about what could have been if those draft picks were in the TO system and not Phil Kessel. Heck, who's to say that Phil Kessel is still a Leaf at that time?? This also comes down to my opinion that building through the draft is better than building through trades and free agents. And no, I am not talking about the model Edmonton has followed because that has not succeeded(yet). I am talking about the model in Pitt, Wash, LA, and Chicago.

Edited by - Beans15 on 10/28/2011 08:47:22
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