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Guest9298
( )

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  05:43:11  Reply with Quote
Wow! Tyler Seguin is sure looking like an elite player these last few games. If thats an indication of whats to come in future look out.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3586 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  09:05:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if by "elite", you mean enroute to scoring 30-ish goals and 65-ish points, then I agree, he's looking pretty elite right now.

Hey, what if he gets like, 40 goals and 80 or 90 points? Is there a category above "elite". Is it like frequent flying, where he becomes "super elite"?
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  09:08:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The eternal debate...lol...Seguin sure is looking great, good for him.

The only reason i don`t get a sour grapes feeling ( as a leaf fan ) watching Seguin play is the fact that...( and i`m sick of posting this )....

Toronto DIDN`T trade SEGUIN for KESSEL...it was draft picks...The leafs NEVER had Seguin.

Beans already pointed out...if the trade didn`t happen, maybe leaf fans would be keeping an eye on Taylor Hall...saying what if ??

What if ?? What if ?? What if ??

Maybe if the trade didn`t happen Burke would have made another deal ( i`m sure he would have) which may have helped the leafs finish 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 spots higher in the standings.....then Seguin and Hall would be out of the picture anyway.

Anyway it is what it is, its done.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5793 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  09:10:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Toronto DIDN`T trade SEGUIN for KESSEL...it was draft picks...The leafs NEVER had Seguin.



No, but one has to assume that Burke would have taken Seguin with his pick, had he not gifted , errr, traded it to the Bruins!
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BucketHead
Top Prospect



Canada
78 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  10:17:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
but how do u know he would have had that pick Alex116 the leafs would have had a different roster then the one that they had so who now's if they wold have been in the position to pick Seguin.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5793 Posts

Posted - 11/08/2011 :  11:02:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BucketHead

but how do u know he would have had that pick Alex116 the leafs would have had a different roster then the one that they had so who now's if they wold have been in the position to pick Seguin.



Yeah, you're right, they might have gotten first and picked Hall......my bad.
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Guest4243
( )

Posted - 11/12/2011 :  21:17:06  Reply with Quote
Wonder if leaf fans still think this is a fair trade. Let's see Seguin 20 points as a 19 yr old. Kessel 24 points as a 25 yr old. Was that a fair trade straight up? Yup. What Boston got two other prospects and a reduction of about 4M to the cap?

Yeah we'll call it a tie.
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Guest2760
( )

Posted - 11/13/2011 :  05:22:21  Reply with Quote
I think we are starting to see this trade go in Bostons favour now and into the future. Tyler Seguin is really starting to blossom. I difinitly see some 100 point seasons in his future. If Hamilton is even half as good as they say, this will be a bad trade.
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Guest4551
( )

Posted - 11/15/2011 :  14:19:31  Reply with Quote
this is a stupid questing.......... both teams got exactly what they wanted. tor got kessel and boston got to CHOOSE earlier than they should have.
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Guest9245
( )

Posted - 01/15/2012 :  11:47:26  Reply with Quote
Imagine Trading an all star player for an all star player. Turned out pretty even in my opinion unless you look at age and salary in which case Boston has a slight edge.
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Open_Ice
Rookie



Canada
109 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2012 :  17:02:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Except that Toronto also gave up another first round pick and a second round pick as well...

I agree though, the leafs probably still lose if the trade was seguin for kessel straight up.
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Guest4271
( )

Posted - 01/16/2012 :  09:47:48  Reply with Quote
kessel rules. seguin is terrible.
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Guest9722
( )

Posted - 01/16/2012 :  16:43:49  Reply with Quote
but what did the Bruins give up for Kaberle
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Guest4620
( )

Posted - 01/16/2012 :  17:37:34  Reply with Quote
If the trade was just Seguin for Kessel, the Bruins still won the trade. Dougie Hamilton could easily be elite and is just gravy.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2012 :  18:40:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I really don't want to get into this again, but I gotta say something about the guest who posted about Kaberle:

Who cares?? The Kaberle deal has absolutely nothing to do with the Kessel for 3 draft picks deal. Nothing at all.

While I am here, I am wondering how the Leaf Nation feels about Dougie Hamilton after the WJC? I know it was only 6 or 7 games, but I thought he looked great.

I hold firm that if this deal pans out they way I think it will, Dougie Hamilton will be the kicker.

One other question for not only the Leaf Nation but all hockey fans:

How would you like your team to be building on a core of Tuuka Rask, Dougie Hamilton, and Tyler Seguin??
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
573 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2012 :  20:01:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great it resurfaced,So sick of the leaf fans delusion. Seguin and hamiliton have greater value than almost any single player in the NHL, let alone kessel.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5793 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2012 :  17:09:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sahis34

Great it resurfaced,So sick of the leaf fans delusion. Seguin and hamiliton have greater value than almost any single player in the NHL, let alone kessel.



HUH??? You hate this topic (as do i and many others) but then you turn around and claim that "Seguin and Hamilton have greater value than almost any single player in the NHL"???? WTF? Think about how ridiculous that statement really is!
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Guest2740
( )

Posted - 04/01/2012 :  07:26:40  Reply with Quote
I think it is now time too officially say that Boston has won this trade, and by a wide margin. In Three seasons Toronto has done nothing, almost arguably gotten worse and Boston has had 3 straight 100 pt seasons and a Stanley Cup. I will now officially cast my vote in Bostons favour as i had to wait to see how things played out.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2012 :  08:02:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Although I believe Boston won the trade a long time ago, I don't think one can says the Leafs woes or the Bruins success have been directly impacted by this trade, yet.

In fact, I would say that Toronto has reaped more benefit from this trade than Boston has. Say what you will about the Leafs, but they were leading their division for the first few months of the season and were in a playoff spot at the start of Februrary. This was almost all on the stick of Phil Kessel. He is undoubtedly the MVP for the Leafs. That's not too shabby.

That being said, if the trade never happened (and assuming Toronto would have pick Seguin and Hamilton) I don't think either team is further ahead or behind today. However, the long term potential of both Seguin and Hamilton will be more valuable to their team then Kessel alone. Even if Knight never plays in the NHL, this two studs that Boston got in this deal make it a Boston win.
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Guest9237
( )

Posted - 04/01/2012 :  14:44:02  Reply with Quote
Yeah, there no debate anymore. You couldn't have dreamed it any better for Boston.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 04/01/2012 :  20:13:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tyler Seguin is no doubt the number center the leafs have coveted for so long.....

Several years ago Phil kessel was the perennial 30 - 40 goal man who they coveted for so long...

Basically they gave up one to get the other....BUT...at the time , did they really know this ?? .....They absolutely, surely knew they were receiving the latter..BUT...did they know absolutely, surely they were giving up the next franchise center - iceman ??

OF COURSE NOT....they were ( in their minds ) giving up 2 first round , middle of the pack draftees...thats what they figured, going by the leafs previous 3 - 4 seasons

Do you think at the time when Brian Burke came to Toronto he thought they were going to be even lousier the next season ?? Do you think in his mind that he was going to lead them from a middle of the pack team to total crap ?? Bottom of the NHL cellar - dwellers...OF COURSE NOT...but he DID !!!!!!

This my friends is what made this deal stink in the eyes of many, not actually the orginal deal itself...but the end result of the deal, there is a difference...Burke rolled the dice and drew craps.

Was Phil kessel worth this ?? ( 2 middle 1st rounders ) Of course he was....Would any sane general manager give away a second overall draft pick for kessel ?? Of course he wouldn`t...he would be fired, and rightly so......

This was the situation the leafs faced when making this deal.

I can guarentee you that if the leafs finished between 12 th and 16 th overall in both of Boston`s draft years ( from the leafs picks ) this deal would be a win for Toronto .......but of course this didn`t happen.

As for Dougie Hamilton ? Isn`t he from Toronto ? He wouldn`t be a leaf ...Burke would have drafted the next Amercian forward to go in the draft, the one who went 15 th overall... Jonathan Tanner ( J .T. ) Miller...this is the guy who leafs fans should be watching, if they are wondering what if...regarding the kessel deal.

I think leaf fans should be a whole lot more interested in what direction their team is headed in next season...instead of focusing on a deal that happened 3 - 4 years ago...this topic is old news.

Brian Burke has been in leaf land now for what ?? 3 - 4 years ?? How much has the on - ice team improved ??....They`ve gone backwards ..hard to accept for a leaf fan, but the numbers don`t lie.

What do they do now ??.... It takes years to rebuild a franchise. I don`t think Burke realized how bad the leafs system was until after spending time there.

Outside those 3 draft picks gone for kessel... Burke has done an excellent job in re - stocking Toronto`s youth...BUT they simply aren`t ready yet.

The turn around in Toronto will happen...but it will take a lot longer than i myself and i`m sure many others thought it would...Brian Burke may be good at what he does but he has certainly proven in Toronto that he ain`t no magican.
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



714 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2012 :  15:09:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Beans. Three more goals to go from Kessel and I win the bet.

I'm hoping a hat trick saturday to seal the deal, haha... Well it will be interresting to see the next three games
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Guest4110
( )

Posted - 04/03/2012 :  16:55:25  Reply with Quote
Are u guys smoking crack or just a bunch of dumb maple leaf fans u ask any gm in the NHL if they would trade seguin straight across for kessel and it would be a resounding hell no seguin is already close to being as good as kessel if not better younger and a center then u add in Hamilton and knight I don't have to wait for the future for this one Boston won this trade in a land slide and seguin is not even close to his prime yet
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2012 :  19:42:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are absolutely right guest 4110...no GM in his right mind would trade Seguin for kessel right now.

Fact is guest ( a point you seem to miss, any many more like you ) ...

SEGUIN was never traded for KESSEL...did you realize this ???
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2012 :  19:45:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
P.S...if you thought SEGUIN was traded for KESSEL....

I would then guess you are on crack and a dumb non-leaf fan who doesn`t watch hockey.

It was draft picks my friend...NOT Seguin for Kessel
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Guest9558
( )

Posted - 04/03/2012 :  20:37:41  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

...This was almost all on the stick of Phil Kessel. He is undoubtedly the MVP for the Leafs. That's not too shabby.


You're probably right, but the Leafs don't set the bar very high. As good as he is, Kessel can't carry the entire team on his back. For a team to fall so dramatically during a season, there must be locker room drama.

With or without the Kessel trade, Boston would be near the top of the east and Toronto near the bottom, so at the moment, the trade is a wash. Boston will likely see more long term benefit because the quality of the young talent they acquired for one (dare I say) elite player.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2012 :  21:01:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

P.S...if you thought SEGUIN was traded for KESSEL....

I would then guess you are on crack and a dumb non-leaf fan who doesn`t watch hockey.

It was draft picks my friend...NOT Seguin for Kessel



Duke, you can keep saying this until you are blue in the face but the simple fact of the matter is those draft picks directly turned out to be Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. The trade will always be measured by the players involved and not draft picks.

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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
573 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2012 :  21:39:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Leaf fans who claim that the leafs won the trade are like creationists who continue to argue for the ridiculous. When confronted with such a person, us sane people are forced to nod and smile, and then creep away slowly when the crazy person rambles on and on about it. Seriously 8 pages of this s***? There is no debate tone it down.

Edited by - sahis34 on 04/04/2012 20:28:46
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Guest2758
( )

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  07:23:01  Reply with Quote
If it was any other team there wouldn't be a debate, but its Toronto. You take the good with the bad .
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
385 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  10:33:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hands down boston won this trade. Burke did not think that he was gonna have that high a pick (had he known i dont think he would have made the trade). for that reason and that reason alone i say boston wins hands down. do not pass go do not collect a stanley cup. welcome to the cellar toronto.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  11:57:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
sahis34...i don`t see too many leaf fans on here saying that the leafs actually won the trade....most leaf fans here state the fact that the leafs received a very good player in kessel...this doesn`t imply that the leafs won the trade.

I just posted the fact that Seguin was not traded for kessel, thats all........i also said that no sane GM would trade Seguin for kessel right now...does this statement sound like i`m saying Toronto won the trade ??

Obviously Boston is reaping great rewards from this trade and in time this trade will benefit them more so than the leafs.

You claim you are sane and the leaf fans here who argue that the leafs won this trade are crazy and you just shake your head and walk away from them nodding and smiling....

So, i`m putting a challenge to you, if you are up to it ???

Can you go through these posts and find the leaf fans you are talking about ?? Can you find the ones who claim that the leafs won this trade, hands down....and re - post their out - right claim that the leafs definitely won this trade over Boston....

I`m admitting right now that Boston wins this trade, after watching Seguin play...2 years ago i was more neutral, but not now.

Theres no need to read any of my posts...BOSTON won the trade !!!!!!!

Please post these fans you refer to.....if you can`t then your comments are hogwash.....and your just rambling nonsense.
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Guest4110
( )

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  20:14:39  Reply with Quote
Hey the duke u are an idiot and are clearly the crack smoker I watch a ton of hockey and could c the writing in the wall when Toronto made this trade that they really didn't improve there team kessel is a great player but not good enough to trade for even a top 5 pick and they did not improve enough with this trade before the season started only ones that thought they did was retarded leaf fans and Burke I thought they were going to finish last that year they got lucky Edmonton had a ton of injuries was all that saved them
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  20:28:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 4110, the debate here is who won the trade.

NOT which position the leafs finished in.

Why are you relating the two ?? What are you saying ?? The draft picks would have them finishing higher ??...or...Bringing in kessel dropped them into 29 th place ??

You made reference to the fact that no GM in his right mind would trade Seguin for kessel...i agree with you.

I noted that your statement was pointless because this trade didn`t happen...it was kessel for draft picks ( not Seguin )...

You couldn`t handle this fact, and it it fact,,,not fiction like you wrote, got childish and called me an idiot...

In my books guest, this makes you the idiot.
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Guest8875
( )

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  20:30:05  Reply with Quote
I have to go with Boston only because Toronto is not making the playoffs this year. If Toronto had made the playoffs I would say it is a tie. If they made it to the finals and won the cup I would say they win. It doesn't matter if Kessel is better than Sequin or if Sequin will be better than Kessel, only on who makes there team better. Kessel makes the leafs better yes but they still have holes to fill. Sequin not only made his team better last year when Boston won the cup but will continue to make Boston a contender for some years to come. In fact Boston looks like they could be the next Dynasty team (Before them being Detroit and before them being Edmonton). If so 2 out of 3 Dynasties will be 2 of my 3 favorite teams. Yay for me!
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
573 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  20:31:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by sahis34

Great it resurfaced,So sick of the leaf fans delusion. Seguin and hamiliton have greater value than almost any single player in the NHL, let alone kessel.



HUH??? You hate this topic (as do i and many others) but then you turn around and claim that "Seguin and Hamilton have greater value than almost any single player in the NHL"???? WTF? Think about how ridiculous that statement really is!






I bet you can't name 10. I would say that stamkos is definitely more valuable but I would debate almost anyone else. Maybe malkin,crosby,ovechkin,toews, karlsson,i dunno. Seguin is of top 20-30 value in the league, and a great young player like hamilton puts him over many. I'm an oilers fan and I wouldn't say that the oilers have a player more valuable then seguin and hamilton combined, even RNH, hall and eberle.

Edited by - sahis34 on 04/04/2012 20:54:33
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5793 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2012 :  22:13:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sahis, my apologies, i thought you meant Seguin and Hamilton both (on their own) were more valuable, not as a pair. You've now cleared that up, and i see your point and it does make some sense. I'm sure there's a few like you mentioned who would be worth more, but i get what you were trying to say.

BTW, one day surely this thread will die, no?

Edited by - Alex116 on 04/04/2012 22:13:19
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Guest2775
( )

Posted - 04/05/2012 :  01:32:07  Reply with Quote
Just by the nature of the question the thread would have to be relevent for a few years. We have to wait and see the development of these draft picks to compare with Kessel and how Boston and Toronto fair.
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
385 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2012 :  06:24:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i wonder if this thread would die if tor traded kessel to CBJ for nash ...... hhhmmmmm (obviously not straight up, there would have to be other players going to columbus)
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
696 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2012 :  07:18:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wow, this still goes on? Both won, get over it. TO got a pure goal scorer, BOS got a future, (that's looking good) but, in the end, picks are a crapshoot. BOS got a great pick, period. Does it change Kessel scoring 50? no, does Seguin getting 50 change it? no, so, let's get over it. But i will say this: getting 40 or 50 on last place team, means s*** in the end. just saying.....biased
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
696 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2012 :  07:21:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
wow, this still goes on? Both won, get over it. TO got a pure goal scorer, BOS got a future, (that's looking good) but, in the end, picks are a crapshoot. BOS got a great pick, period. Does it change Kessel scoring 50? no, does Seguin getting 50 change it? no, so, let's get over it. But i will say this: getting 40 or 50 on last place team, means s*** in the end. just saying.....biased
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