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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2011 : 18:02:34
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Plekanec Cammalleri Cole
Gomez Gionta Pacioretty
Eller Kostitsyn Desharnais
White Moen Pyatt
Subban Markov
Yemelin Spacek
Gorges Gill
Weaber
Price
Budja
Now i hope Gauthier is not quite done yet their are still some holes in this line up, some glaring weakness specificly the number 4 d spot, I hope a Buyout is in the near futur for Spacek he is just to slow for the NHL game, they still need depth up front aswell so if i were Gauthier these would be my next moves..
Sign Zenon Konopka as a 4th line center, adds grit and toughness something we all know the habs are lacking, but is not just an enforcer he is actually a terrific faceoff man and a good skater excellent in his own zone, a 4th line of Moen Konopka and White looks a lot better than most 4 th lines in the league,, all three skate very well all three can drop the golves all three are big and play with an edge, this would be a 4th line that could see 8 + minutes a game
Buy out Spacek and sign Scott Hannan or even better Niklas Wallin, my UFA list may be out of date and they may already be signed but if they re available
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 17:16:08
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It's a pretty solid team, It will be tough for the Leafs to surpase them in the northeast. They should battle for 3rd in the northeast and 7-10 in the east.
I like the top six, but I think Kostitsyn might have a good season and play on the second line instead of Pacioretty.
I agree that they might be looking for a legit 3rd defense now that they lost Hamrlik and Wizniewski and I don't think they want to give that role to Spacek. Gorges might be the one.
Erik Cole was a good acquisition to round up their top six and add depth. A comparable acquisition was made by the Leafs with Tim Connoly.
Edit : I'm not too sold on Budaj as a backup, Budaj would be a good backup to a goalie like Theodore or Mike Smith, but for Montreal they could have got a goalie like Garon. A goalie that can sit on the bench for a long period of time and then shine when it's his turn. But this is a minor detail, I expect Price to play around 70 games this season. |
Edited by - Leafs81 on 07/02/2011 17:19:53 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2011 : 17:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs81
It's a pretty solid team, It will be tough for the Leafs to surpase them in the northeast. They should battle for 3rd in the northeast and 7-10 in the east.
I like the top six, but I think Kostitsyn might have a good season and play on the second line instead of Pacioretty.
I agree that they might be looking for a legit 3rd defense now that they lost Hamrlik and Wizniewski and I don't think they want to give that role to Spacek. Gorges might be the one.
Erik Cole was a good acquisition to round up their top six and add depth. A comparable acquisition was made by the Leafs with Tim Connoly.
Edit : I'm not too sold on Budaj as a backup, Budaj would be a good backup to a goalie like Theodore or Mike Smith, but for Montreal they could have got a goalie like Garon. A goalie that can sit on the bench for a long period of time and then shine when it's his turn. But this is a minor detail, I expect Price to play around 70 games this season.
I agree with Budja but i think the logic is they want price to play closer to 60 games then the 72 he started last season, I agree the top six looks good Pacioretty i think fits in there because Gomez was at his best with Gionta and Pacioretty and at the price the habs are paying gomez they need him to produce, also last year Kostitsyn dropped to the third line and played with Eller and it seemed to bring the best out of Eller 2 big strong talented guys and they played very well together, and Deharnais finished the year strong something like 27 points in 40 games or so,, Eller after the All Star break (once he started playing with Kostitsyn) scored 18 of his 20 points, then seperated his shoulder in the playoffs, and came back to play in the same game, part of the reason i expect great things from this kid this season, he's got the size and the skill set and seems to have the desire.
We still need to add a 4th line forward with some grit,, Konopka is still available and i'm really hoping Gauthier follows me on twitter because i keep tweeting how he'd be perfect for the habs,
And you are right sir they need to add depth on D
Yeah i was thinking that today the Leafs and habs signed very similar players in Cole and Connoly both are legit top 3 forwards if they can stay healthy but both have been bitten by the injury bug pretty bad thus far in their career's so both are a bit of a gamble
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2011 : 16:07:15
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I would be cautious in putting too much faith in Eric Cole. He goes from one of the top power forwards in the league one night to a complete pylon the next night. He spent nearly a year in Edmonton and was easily the most inconsistent player I have watched in the past 10 years. That says a lot considering the likes of Dustin Penner and Tom Gilbert with the Oilers at that time.
He will get you 20-25 goals over the season, but he will frustrate the crap out of most fans when he disappears. |
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MrBoogedy
Rookie
Canada
195 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2011 : 21:24:58
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| I was surprised that Montreal resigned Kostitsyn, i was really hoping they'd let him go. I hope they're not done tinkering yet, though I am happy with the acquisition of Cole. Budaj and Auld seem completely interchangable to me, like the difference between gray and charcoal. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2011 : 05:34:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I would be cautious in putting too much faith in Eric Cole. He goes from one of the top power forwards in the league one night to a complete pylon the next night. He spent nearly a year in Edmonton and was easily the most inconsistent player I have watched in the past 10 years. That says a lot considering the likes of Dustin Penner and Tom Gilbert with the Oilers at that time.
He will get you 20-25 goals over the season, but he will frustrate the crap out of most fans when he disappears.
What i am hoping for is he seems to be the kind of guy who gets up for big games and seems to need to play in a comfort zone (next to Eric Staal) i am hooing that montreal creates this same comfort zone, it seems to be a good fit for him a very fast high tempo skilled team, he seems to play well in Montreal 25points in 28 games, so i'm hoping this is a move good for his comfort zone,, i think he fits extremly well with Cammy and Plekanec i think this has a chance to be a very good line!
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Guest2622
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Posted - 07/11/2011 : 10:25:32
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quote:
Originally posted by MrBoogedy
I was surprised that Montreal resigned Kostitsyn, i was really hoping they'd let him go. I hope they're not done tinkering yet, though I am happy with the acquisition of Cole. Budaj and Auld seem completely interchangable to me, like the difference between gray and charcoal.
Geez, I gotta say, I find this post a little bizarre. Why wouldn't they resign him? The guys got obvious talent and he's only 26. His drive could probably be better, but when he gets going, he's pretty tough to stop. I have seen him skate through guys. |
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MrBoogedy
Rookie
Canada
195 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2011 : 21:18:03
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| Those nights are too few and far between. Most nights he's a ghost, very reminiscent of Kovalev who also happens to be his favorite player. I find that players like that, when they have their 'off' nights, spread their laziness and lack-luster performance throughout the team. Just as a good shift can get your guys fired up, a lazy one can have the opposite effect. Not always, but sometimes....IMO. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 08:32:06
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Montreal is a tough one to predict . . . I thought they'd do just a bit worse last year, especially after losing Markov . . . but even with some terrible offensive years from their forwards, Price was amazing, and they rode him to the playoffs.
The forwards still look like a pretty low scoring bunch, even if Gionta and Cammalleri pick it up as I think they probably will. Can Price repeat the season he just had? It's possible, but I think, unlikely - at least a small step back, I'd say (just too difficult these days to keep up that level of performance). With a healthy Markov, the defence looks ok - an offensive bunch that will give up the odd chance for sure.
But really, for the team to make the playoffs again, either Price has to duplicate last year's performance, or the forwards really have to do a lot better as a group.
It'll be tough, as Buffalo got a bit better, the Leafs continue to get better, and obviously the Cup champs still look good. Ottawa will still be there at the bottom barring some miracle, but they did get a bit tougher.
To me, that is Montreal's real issue this year: can they survive the big, bruising forwards of Boston, and the big bruising defencemen of both Buffalo and Toronto? They are still a soft team up front, with little grit.
It'll be a battle until the end to make the playoffs.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4086
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Posted - 07/12/2011 : 08:55:13
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IMO signing Cole was a lot like Calgary last year going after Jokinen and Tanguay. might look good on paper, but won't do much on the ice. my guess is he'll be traded back to Carolina (again!) sometime in the 2012-2013 season.
how will the Habs do? it all rests on Price. where he goes, this team goes. but then again you can probably say that about any team and their starting goalie. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 09:41:11
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| slozo - the habs kept Markov. However, they did lose Hamrlik... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 09:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4086
IMO signing Cole was a lot like Calgary last year going after Jokinen and Tanguay. might look good on paper, but won't do much on the ice. my guess is he'll be traded back to Carolina (again!) sometime in the 2012-2013 season.
Jokinen may be a good example of what you're trying to say, but Tanguay actually worked out pretty good for the Flames. Good enough to earn him another contract in fact, to the tune of 3.5/year for the next 4! |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 09:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
slozo - the habs kept Markov. However, they did lose Hamrlik...
I know. I never said they lost Markov for the upcoming season.
I did, however, forget that they lost Hamrlik - but it's almost a non-issue, with Subban there as the second major offensive threat from the d-corps.
I agree with Pasty that Spacek is too slow, and Gill as slow as he is relies on his long reach and positioning, and Yemelin is weak if he's your fourth d-man.
Guest 4086 - yes, for most teams of course the starting goalie has to be good for the team to succeed . . . but when you have a team with an anemic offense and a so-so defence (on paper, mind you - they played pretty good last year without Markov, which surprised me and many others), it's OH so much more important. Especially when your starting goalie played at an MVP level for most of the season to let your team get in the playoffs.
Without Price playing at or near last year's level, all things being equal, they will miss the playoffs.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 10:23:45
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I have to say that Montreal looks to be the same team they were last year. Adding Eric Cole will support more scoring but outside of that, they will perform virtually the same. That being said, I agree that Price will be the tipping point of this team making the playoffs. That, and Markov staying healthy.
I still like Montreal's chances at the playoffs more so than Toronto's. Better goaltending, more proven goaltending, and I think a better overall team defense. I think I like TO's top 6 forward group a little better offensively but I don't like TO's top 6 group defensively compared to Montreal's. The reason I am comparing the 2 teams is because I see them both fighting for a playoff spot in the East. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2011 : 11:23:06
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See i have a very good feeling that Cole Plekanec and Cammalleri mesh well together, I think you will see that line step up offensivle, Cammalleri will return to his 30 goal scoring ways and i could easily see his point total move to the upward 70's if he is healthy all year long, a lot of people see Cammy as just a sniper he is actually a terrific passer i don't know how many times he puts the puck right on Kostitsyn's stick in the slot and Ak fans on it or fails to put it home, or T. Moen has no idea what to do with it,, look for Cammy to have a 30 30 year imo and look for Plekanec his normal 65 points Cole i wouldn't be surprised to see 30 goals from him playing with these two he seems to like to play a fast game off the rush which is exactly what Cammalleri and Plekanec do this may be a perfect match for the habs
Now as for the second line look for Gionta to put up his classic 25 to 30 goals and 15 to 20 assist, Paciorrety should pick up where he left off and finish the year with 25 to 30 goals and lets face it Gomex can't be much worst then he was last season
our third line is actually our bet asset, Eller scored 18 points after january playing with Kostitsyn and Deharnais, he's got the skill set and the size and the determination, look for 35 to 45 points from him this season, Deharnais scored 27 points in 42 games last season so he is capable of a 40 point season and then their is Kostitsyn look for his 22 goals and 20 or so assist
so if these players match these reasonable projections i think the habs will have plenty of offense to match their defensive style
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Edited by - Pasty7 on 07/12/2011 11:30:39 |
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Guest4312
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Posted - 07/12/2011 : 13:12:26
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| hopefully eric cole can stay healthy, and if so he should put up career numbers. I don't see montreal falling out of the playoff picture like many others do... carey price seems to have had his coming out party and while others believe he will fail to live up to expectations i believe he is just begining what will turn out to be a fantastic career (he may be the #1 for canada in 2014)... the forwards drastically underperformed last year and a healthy pacioretty can build off his success and he and cole will take pressure off of cammy./ gionta/ gomez ( who all had less than stellar years) .... the defense should benefit from markov's return but will be interesting to see how the departures of the wiz and hamrlik will affect the team |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2011 : 08:22:53
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Why would Cole put up career numbers?
When playing with first Brind'amour, then Eric Staal, Cole has put up solid numbers. Other than those times, he has been an extremely ordinary player.
He is 32, and on the downside of his career, especially so because of past injuries, It might be easy to forget this after last season's 26g, 26a performance . . . when he played with Eric Staal.
He is going to a team with an anemic offense, and he has never been the creative player, really - he is a guy who can score goals with a very skilled player feeding him, basically.
So I don't get the optimism.
As a poolie, I look at Cole's numbers dropping, and I'll stay far away from him on draft day.
And I don't get why anyone can like Montreal's top 6 . . . half of them should not even be there! It only speak to how differently people look at different teams, that through these message boards I can read lots of crap about how poor Toronto's top 6 are, but read how great Montreal's top 6 is and how they measure up. Poppycock!
Last year - a year where NO ONE on the team reached 60 points:
Gionta (top sniper) - 29g, 17a, 46 pts.
Gomez (1st line centre) - 7g, 38a, 45 points
Plekanec (1st line) - 22g, 35a, 57 pts (woo hoo! top point getter!)
A. Kostitsyn - 20g, 25a, 45 pts.
Puiliot - 13g, 17a, 30 pts.
Cammalleri - 19g, 28a, 47 pts (67 gp)
At least you have a serviceable Cole replacing Pouliot on the top two lines, but . . . it's not that fantastic. Cammalleri and Gionta are good top 6 midgets players. Plekanec is an ok top 6 guy.
But you have no one with size or grit really in your top 6. If Cammalleri doesn't get a real top 6 playmaker, he may never see 30 goals again, who knows?
I agree that Montreal's third line is solid . . . but beyond an amazing goalie performance and a defence that might once again surprise people . . . I don't see where the goals are coming from, myself.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2011 : 11:31:04
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Slozo, the offensive numbers are more than just the forwards.
If the Montreal offense is anemic then by default isn't Toronto's as well?? I mean, they were separated by 2 goals in the 10/11 season. Toronto adds Connally and Liles but loses Kaberle. Montreal missed Markov for all of last season and they added Cole. I would say that is about as close to a wash as I can think of. If Montreal is anemic, so it TO. If TO has offensive power, so does Montreal.
Their top 6 forward groups are comparable to say the least.
Cammellari - Kessel (close to a tie)
Plekanec - Connally (close to a tie)
Gionta - Lupul(Montreal wins this one)
Cole - Grabovksi (close to a tie)
Gomez - Kulemin - (Toronto likely wins this one)
Kostitsyn - MacArthur (close to a tie)
By the way, I am measuring this on the body of work and speaking purely offensively and not last season alone. I am not saying I think TO's group is worst as I actually think they are a little better overall. However, it is not a far gap at all. Also, I would suggest that Montreal's top 6 forwards are better and more responsible defensively than TO group. So, all things considered, they are very comparable in that regard.
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Guest4312
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Posted - 07/13/2011 : 12:56:04
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| gionta played well with 29 goals... cammy was hurt for a good stretch and so was pacioretty (the other two goal scorers on the team) throw in plekanec and eric cole and a better season from gomez (fingers crossed) and the canadiens are just fine offensively |
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Guest4312
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Posted - 07/13/2011 : 12:57:49
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id be more concerned with the bottom 6 forwards and the bottom 2 defense than the top end players
and who cares about grit? the canadiens came within 1 goal of beating the now stanley cup champion bruins... they were the closest of any team in the league to beating them in the playoffs and they actually led the series for as good chunk of time |
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Guest9201
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Posted - 07/13/2011 : 13:32:03
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| i guess technically your right, although both Tampa and Vancouver took Boston to 7 games as well. I don't think Montreal is in danger of missing the playoffs as long as Price is healthy for the year. Montreal (unlike Toronto) always manages to play well even when it seems that their talant level isn't where it should be. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2011 : 03:59:10
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Why would Cole put up career numbers?
When playing with first Brind'amour, then Eric Staal, Cole has put up solid numbers. Other than those times, he has been an extremely ordinary player.
He is 32, and on the downside of his career, especially so because of past injuries, It might be easy to forget this after last season's 26g, 26a performance . . . when he played with Eric Staal.
He is going to a team with an anemic offense, and he has never been the creative player, really - he is a guy who can score goals with a very skilled player feeding him, basically.
So I don't get the optimism.
As a poolie, I look at Cole's numbers dropping, and I'll stay far away from him on draft day.
And I don't get why anyone can like Montreal's top 6 . . . half of them should not even be there! It only speak to how differently people look at different teams, that through these message boards I can read lots of crap about how poor Toronto's top 6 are, but read how great Montreal's top 6 is and how they measure up. Poppycock!
Last year - a year where NO ONE on the team reached 60 points:
Gionta (top sniper) - 29g, 17a, 46 pts.
Gomez (1st line centre) - 7g, 38a, 45 points
Plekanec (1st line) - 22g, 35a, 57 pts (woo hoo! top point getter!)
A. Kostitsyn - 20g, 25a, 45 pts.
Puiliot - 13g, 17a, 30 pts.
Cammalleri - 19g, 28a, 47 pts (67 gp)
At least you have a serviceable Cole replacing Pouliot on the top two lines, but . . . it's not that fantastic. Cammalleri and Gionta are good top 6 midgets players. Plekanec is an ok top 6 guy.
But you have no one with size or grit really in your top 6. If Cammalleri doesn't get a real top 6 playmaker, he may never see 30 goals again, who knows?
I agree that Montreal's third line is solid . . . but beyond an amazing goalie performance and a defence that might once again surprise people . . . I don't see where the goals are coming from, myself.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Where to start,
Cammalleri is a top 3 forward on any team in the NHL, not just good, he is one of those players jsut outside the elite category, and don't throw his statistic from last season at me, he came back way too soon from an injury because the team needed him in both of the last twe seasons, and just look at his playoff stats in the last 2 seasons he is a game changer and more than just a sniper,
Plekanec is an ok top six, maybe i don't understand what you mean by ok but the way i read it is you are saying he is boarderline top six, well if ok is 127 points in his last 159 games well i'll take ok anyday on my team espcially when he is a terrific two way player who plays in all game situations, i mean really he'san ok top six come on,
No size in the habs top six, ok it's not ideal or big by any means but it is far from none existent Cole 6ft 2 205 lbs Kostitsyn 6ft 215lbs Pacioretty 6 ft 2 200 lbs Gomez and Plekanec both 5 ft 11 200 lbs, so what you are saying is Gionta and Cammalleri at 5ft 7 and 5ft 9 are so small that the entire top six is tiny?
And to go furthur down Moen Eller White are all also over 6ft 200 lbs
Now add in if Markov is Healthy thats at least 50 points to put in the bank, if Subban avoids the sophmore jinx hes good for 40 just like last season
The thing to remember about the habs when saying they can`t score is everyone of these players would be puting up much bigger number playing a different system, Martin likes to score first and protect, when the habs are ahead it`s like they are on a P.k for the rest of the game that takes away a lot of goals from players like Cammalleri , hell takes away goals and points from everyone, but that style has also translated into playoff success for the habs in the last 2 seasons,
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2011 : 05:03:24
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Disagree about Jacques Martin's coaching style being so "offensively suppressing", Pasty.
You do remember the Ottawa Senators, when Jacques coached them, right?
2002/03 - #1 for Goals Scored in the Eastern Conference
2003/04 - #1 for Goals Scored in the entire NHL
fired after another playoff failure, hired by Florida - where he took a team that had finished 2nd last in the Eastern Conference in goals scored, and had his team make a 52 goal improvement the next year after the lockout.
He certainly is a defence first, and then the offense will take care of itself kind of guy . . . but that hasn't been shown to be that suppressive, really. It's not a trap system, it's built for counter-attacks.
I never said Cammi wasn't a good player in the top 6 - he is.
I said in the top 6 forwards, you are EITHER lacking size or grit . . . meaning, that if they are not undersized, then they are not gritty, even when they are average sized.
My only point there was, that I had noticed they were a bit 'soft', that's all. For every team, some of your top 6 are going to be pure finesse players, and that is acceptable of course . . . but when Cammi is your grittiest player on the top 6, you have a bit of an issue, I think.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2011 : 06:09:04
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Disagree about Jacques Martin's coaching style being so "offensively suppressing", Pasty.
You do remember the Ottawa Senators, when Jacques coached them, right?
2002/03 - #1 for Goals Scored in the Eastern Conference
2003/04 - #1 for Goals Scored in the entire NHL
fired after another playoff failure, hired by Florida - where he took a team that had finished 2nd last in the Eastern Conference in goals scored, and had his team make a 52 goal improvement the next year after the lockout.
He certainly is a defence first, and then the offense will take care of itself kind of guy . . . but that hasn't been shown to be that suppressive, really. It's not a trap system, it's built for counter-attacks.
I never said Cammi wasn't a good player in the top 6 - he is.
I said in the top 6 forwards, you are EITHER lacking size or grit . . . meaning, that if they are not undersized, then they are not gritty, even when they are average sized.
My only point there was, that I had noticed they were a bit 'soft', that's all. For every team, some of your top 6 are going to be pure finesse players, and that is acceptable of course . . . but when Cammi is your grittiest player on the top 6, you have a bit of an issue, I think.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I think you are underestimating the toughness of Pacioretty and Cole, Cole was top 5 in hits last year hence why the habs added him to try and add some grit because you are right they were a little too soft last season,
oh and i was hopeing you would explain what you meant by Pleckanec being and "ok" top 6 forward, as i said to me that means you meant he was boarderline top 6, and personnaly i would not use the word "ok" to describe a player who has scored 127 points in his last 159 games.
oh and i think we can agree to disagree about Martin's coaching style i have had to watch it for 2 season now, dumping the puck at the red line as soon as the 2nd period when they have a lead, having one player passivly press in the offensive zone with 4 waiting back in the neutral zone it doesn't exactly screem offense, obviously he does not have the same offensive top 3 as he did in ottawa, infact Cammalleri would be the only player at his disposal now that even compares to the top 3 he had in ottawa, i think he may have changed his method of coaching to fit his new team in mtl
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Edited by - Pasty7 on 07/15/2011 06:15:27 |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2011 : 05:41:31
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Ok if we are comparing the two teams heres my comparaison.
On paper they are pretty much the same. But the place where it differs is the goalie and the coaching. Montreal has a way more proven goalie tandem in Price and Budaj then Reimer and Gustavsson. Montreal seems to play well under Jacques Martin system when the Leafs has been absolutly awefull defensively with Ron Wilson. I still think on paper the defense is better in TO but the support from the forwards and the coaching is vulnerable.
So I give the edge to Montreal based on coaching and goaltending. But there is many question marks on both teams and they will both fight for a playoff spot till april. |
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Posted - 07/19/2011 : 07:10:05
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Pasty - I actually don't think that much of Cole. He's ok, had one or two very good years in Carolina, but that's about it. But certainly, he will add grit and toughness . . . and I didn't know he was top 5 in hits, actually.
Pacioretty . . . gritty?
And Cammalleri . . . he had one very, very good playoffs for Montreal, but outside of that, here is what has happened:
He has his career year in Calgary (08/09 - 39 goals, 82 pts) playing with Iginla, and looks like the next new great sniper.
Then he gets dealt to Montreal.
09/10 - 65 games - 26 goals, 50 pts
10/11 - 67 games - 19 goals, 47 points
That's as sharp a drop-off as you can get, especially for a supposed top line talent, and ESPECIALLY when it just happened two years in a row.
I am not sure why it hasn't disturbed more Canadiens fans, and what makes people think something has changed enough to buck this trend?
Plekanec scored 57 points in 77 games last year, regular season.
This past playoffs, 5 pts in 7 games.
Year before, 11 pts in 19 games when the Canadiens went on their magical post-season run.
And 09/10 season, 70 points in 82 games.
That's 143 points in 185 games, without trying to cherry-pick stats to reflect something in particular - last two seasons, regular and playoffs. That's playing on the top line, first power play unit, everything.
It's good - but it's what I would expect from a top line player on a playoff team. Nothin more, nothing less. He should be getting 60-70 points.
The ONLY reason Montreal made it into the playoffs last year was goaltending. All I am saying is . . . you better hope Price has another MVP season, if you want to squeeze in again.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 09:15:08
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quote:
Pasty - I actually don't think that much of Cole. He's ok, had one or two very good years in Carolina, but that's about it. But certainly, he will add grit and toughness . . . and I didn't know he was top 5 in hits, actually.
The problem with Cole is that he has only done well, in Carolina. Now granted, he's played all but most-of-1-year in CAR, but that most-of-1-year with EDM was a disaster for him. I got the feeling back then, that he just likes playing there with that team, in that city, for that owner - and he's just not going to play that well elsewhere.
So IMO, this is a bit of a gamble with MTL - we'll see how it plays out for them.
quote:
He has his career year in Calgary (08/09 - 39 goals, 82 pts) playing with Iginla, and looks like the next new great sniper.
Then he gets dealt to Montreal.
09/10 - 65 games - 26 goals, 50 pts
10/11 - 67 games - 19 goals, 47 points
That's as sharp a drop-off as you can get, especially for a supposed top line talent, and ESPECIALLY when it just happened two years in a row.
I am not sure why it hasn't disturbed more Canadiens fans, and what makes people think something has changed enough to buck this trend?
Um, it could be all the other successful years that Cammy has had - go back past his last 2 years. He's been in the NHL for 6 seasons, and has 177 goals in that time, for an average of 30 goals per season, 2 seasons over 35. He's averaged .75 PPG over that time, and has emerged into a very good sniper. In the 2010 playoffs, he was the major force behind MTL's progress to the eastern finals. He had a bad season last year (by his standards), but he had 5 very good ones before that.
I think the least of MTL's problems is Cammalleri.
I find it interesting that Leafs fans get all over Cammarelli for not producing, but then insist that Kessel is a player worth building a team around. Both are very comparable in terms of size, skills, cap hit, NHL tenure, and what they bring to the team - however Cammy has outperformed Kessel in nearly every statistical category over their careers.
It would be like me claiming NYR will never have success because their new first line centre doesn't play a physical enough game  |
Edited by - nuxfan on 07/19/2011 09:28:05 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 09:44:44
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How dare your Nuxfan!! How dare you say that Saint Phil is compared to anyone!! This is the guy who is worth 11 million 1st round draft picks because 1st round draft picks always suck and Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton will both be horrible NHL hockey players.
It is very interesting when one compares Kessel to Cammalleri straight up. They are very similar in many ways. The only notable difference is age as Kessel is 6 yrs younger. However, goal scoring is nearly a wash as both are around 0.36 goals per game. Cammalleri has been marginally better with assists at 0.41 assists game comared to 0.3 for Kessel.
Really, they are very similar players in style and in production.
Could you imagine the bashing from the Leaf Nation if the Canadiens would have traded 2-1st round picks for Cammalleri???? |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 11:23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Pasty - I actually don't think that much of Cole. He's ok, had one or two very good years in Carolina, but that's about it. But certainly, he will add grit and toughness . . . and I didn't know he was top 5 in hits, actually.
The problem with Cole is that he has only done well, in Carolina. Now granted, he's played all but most-of-1-year in CAR, but that most-of-1-year with EDM was a disaster for him. I got the feeling back then, that he just likes playing there with that team, in that city, for that owner - and he's just not going to play that well elsewhere.
So IMO, this is a bit of a gamble with MTL - we'll see how it plays out for them.
quote:
He has his career year in Calgary (08/09 - 39 goals, 82 pts) playing with Iginla, and looks like the next new great sniper.
Then he gets dealt to Montreal.
09/10 - 65 games - 26 goals, 50 pts
10/11 - 67 games - 19 goals, 47 points
That's as sharp a drop-off as you can get, especially for a supposed top line talent, and ESPECIALLY when it just happened two years in a row.
I am not sure why it hasn't disturbed more Canadiens fans, and what makes people think something has changed enough to buck this trend?
Um, it could be all the other successful years that Cammy has had - go back past his last 2 years. He's been in the NHL for 6 seasons, and has 177 goals in that time, for an average of 30 goals per season, 2 seasons over 35. He's averaged .75 PPG over that time, and has emerged into a very good sniper. In the 2010 playoffs, he was the major force behind MTL's progress to the eastern finals. He had a bad season last year (by his standards), but he had 5 very good ones before that.
I think the least of MTL's problems is Cammalleri.
I find it interesting that Leafs fans get all over Cammarelli for not producing, but then insist that Kessel is a player worth building a team around. Both are very comparable in terms of size, skills, cap hit, NHL tenure, and what they bring to the team - however Cammy has outperformed Kessel in nearly every statistical category over their careers.
It would be like me claiming NYR will never have success because their new first line centre doesn't play a physical enough game
Ok, you asked for it - let's compare Cammalleri to Kessel. But let's do it FAIRLY, this time - for the first 5 years of their career, seeing as Kessel has only played 5 seasons.
Kessel 6', 202lbs
2006–07 Boston Bruins NHL 70gp 11g 18a 29pts
2007–08 Boston Bruins NHL 82gp 19g 18a 37pts
2008–09 Boston Bruins NHL 70gp 36g 24a 60pts
2009–10 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 70gp 30g 25a 55 pts
2010–11 Toronto Maple Leafs NHL 82gp 32g 32a 64pts
NHL totals 374gp 128g 117a 245pts
Cammalleri 5'9", 185lbs
2002–03 Los Angeles Kings NHL 28gp 5g 3a 8pts
2003–04 Los Angeles Kings NHL 31gp 9g 6a 15pts
work stoppage - in AHL
2005–06 Los Angeles Kings NHL 80gp 26g 29a 55pts
2006–07 Los Angeles Kings NHL 81gp 34g 46a 80pts
2007–08 Los Angeles Kings NHL 63gp 19g 28a 47pts
1) I never insisted on anything about Kessel being a player to build around.
2) Kessel and Cammi are not that compareable in terms of size, nor for NHL tenure. Kessel is an average sized player, Cammalleri is considered small. We're not talking grit, just size here.
Cammi has played in 8 NHL seasons, although the first two were only partial seasons, and then you have the lockout year.
Kessel has played 5 seasons.
Most often, I would argue, a player reaches his prime between season 5-7.
I think Cammelleri already reached his prime, especially getting that career year with Iginla.
Kessel's best year so far came year two playing with Savard mostly. After which, he has not played with a quality centre of note.
But if you want to believe that Cammalleri is going to have an 80 point season in Montreal, go ahead. I won't stop a dreamer.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 12:52:33
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Ok Slozo, since we are doing this fairly, let's look as the closest point for the number of games as Cammalleri played only 28 games in his first season. Cammalleri played 6 season for 364 games so we will look to that point:
Kessel - 374 games, 128 goals, 117 assists - 245 pts
Cammalleri - 364 games, 132 goals, 155 assists - 287 points
Kessel played 1 full season with Savard and Cammalleri played one full season with Iginla.
All things considered, they are very, very comparable. I don't believe anyone stated "Slozo said build a team around Kessel" however it is hard to argue that you have defended the trade since day one. I would find it hard to believe that you would have defended a similar trade for Cammalleri. |
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Guest2757
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Posted - 07/19/2011 : 14:49:43
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| don't know where 6' ,202 pounds come from cause when i looked up his physical stats the hockey news yearbook 2010/2011 has him at 5'11 at 180 pounds |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 15:07:04
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oh and yeah slozo 1 good playoff for cammy ? 2010 playoffs went to the conference final and lead the playoffs in goals, and untill the final was played lead the playoffs in points. 2011 atfter the first round was leading the playoffs in points and second in goals with 10p in 7 gp, and he was by far the best player on the ice in the series with the exception of both golies,
thats two great playoffs in a row for Cammy, and again as for the drop off in Cammy`s numbers the last two seasons in the 2009 2010 season Cammy went down with injury while he was on pace for 39 goals, the habs then go on to fall into 8th and barley hanging on to the spot with a lot of injuries down the middle and Cammalleri comes back from injury early and scores one goal in his final 20 games, (he was playing hurt because the team had no choice)
oh and as for plankanec you called him and ok top 6 player again 143 points in his last 185 games, i`d say more than ok top 6 and boarderline top 3 numbers
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Edited by - Pasty7 on 07/19/2011 15:08:48 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 16:38:41
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Slozo, I didn't refer to you specifically, its more of a general observation about (other) Leafs fans - Cammy gets bashed a lot for not producing to potential, while Kessel is the "dream forward" that can be built around. Yet both are pretty similar in a lot of ways.
As to his size - there seem to be an awful lot of different height/weight stats for Kessel:
- wikipedia: 6'0/202
- TSN: 5'11/180
- hockey news: 5'11/180
- hockey db: 6'0/202
- maple leafs: 6'0/202
So, I don't know which one is correct - for fairness lets say he's in the middle of that, so 5'11/190. Thats pretty comparable to Cammy. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 19:24:41
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Actually, I REALLY wanted Cammi when it looked like he was leaving Calgary.
I have defended the Kessel trade on its merits - not because Kessel is a Leaf, not because I have any great love for Kessel (at least, not yet). Yeah, I would have defended a similar trade for Cammalleri - but I would have been damn worried at this point, after two declining seasons. Why you guys aren't, I can only guess at (red tinted glasses, I assume for Pasty. For Beans . . . well, it's Beans)
And I do know that Cammalleri's ppg is higher right now. Kessel has been more consistent to begin his career overall, but Cammalleri was a ppg player for two seasons, and 80 point seasons certainly put him into more elite territory.
But one thing I will not admit to, and that is their stature being similar.
Just wait until the next game they play together, look at them side by side, and you'll see, lol. It's nitpicking, but seriously - Cammalleri is a shrimp. A sturdy shrimp, but a shrimp in today's NHL nonetheless.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 22:00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Actually, I REALLY wanted Cammi when it looked like he was leaving Calgary.
I have defended the Kessel trade on its merits - not because Kessel is a Leaf, not because I have any great love for Kessel (at least, not yet). Yeah, I would have defended a similar trade for Cammalleri - but I would have been damn worried at this point, after two declining seasons. Why you guys aren't, I can only guess at (red tinted glasses, I assume for Pasty. For Beans . . . well, it's Beans)
And I do know that Cammalleri's ppg is higher right now. Kessel has been more consistent to begin his career overall, but Cammalleri was a ppg player for two seasons, and 80 point seasons certainly put him into more elite territory.
But one thing I will not admit to, and that is their stature being similar.
Just wait until the next game they play together, look at them side by side, and you'll see, lol. It's nitpicking, but seriously - Cammalleri is a shrimp. A sturdy shrimp, but a shrimp in today's NHL nonetheless.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Cammy alos wasn<t minus 19 last season and sees time on the pk their is no comparison in my mind between kessel and cammy the only catagory kessel wins is age....
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 22:12:04
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sorry i meant minus 20, and kessel scored 17 more points than Cammy last season and played 15 games more not really lights out better stats if u ask me infact without question Cammalleri was a better player last season considering he was plus 2 and plays in all situations.. oh and don t give me any excuses for kessels minus 20 because he and bozak are the only 2 on the team who played all season and are worse than a minus 8
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Edited by - Pasty7 on 07/19/2011 22:18:55 |
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
696 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2011 : 23:13:53
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| Cammy would look awesome in the Black n' Gold |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2011 : 05:00:04
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Ok, so now that I have your knickers in a knot, Pasty, let me point out something that has bothered me since this thread started:
If you are a real Habs fan . . . why, in the title of this thread, is it spelled "Canadians"?
Isn't it the Montreal Canadiens? 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2011 : 07:19:42
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Ok, so now that I have your knickers in a knot, Pasty, let me point out something that has bothered me since this thread started:
If you are a real Habs fan . . . why, in the title of this thread, is it spelled "Canadians"?
Isn't it the Montreal Canadiens?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
i don`t follow is that a french english joke that isn`t funny and makes no sense and is your way of avoid the argument when you ve been beat?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2011 : 08:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Ok, so now that I have your knickers in a knot, Pasty, let me point out something that has bothered me since this thread started:
If you are a real Habs fan . . . why, in the title of this thread, is it spelled "Canadians"?
Isn't it the Montreal Canadiens?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
i don`t follow is that a french english joke that isn`t funny and makes no sense and is your way of avoid the argument when you ve been beat?
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
See, everything you said right here is why it's difficult to have discussions with people.
I didn't think we were arguing fact - we have two different opinions on whether Cammalleri and Kessel are compareable, which, frankly, is off topic.
A point which YOU brought up in the first place, and I simply said no, I don't think they are compareable, then had to defend my point.
Secondly, after I deny all of your false argumentation and accusations, basically say that I respect Cammalleri and would have given up the same draft picks for him as Kessel . . . you go on to somehow get even more upset, bringing up all kinds of other stats and facts on Cammalleri - as if I am arguing that they didn't exist or that I disagreed with them or something, I don't know.
Then, I point out the obvious - you are clearly not in the mood for discussion. Then, I also point out the misspelling of what is supposedly your beloved team.
I mean, it's like me starting a topic entitled "The Toronto Maple Leaves", really now.
It's very surprising to me that you don't know the official spelling of your team name - I mean, that's how it IS spelled in English, dude - they go with the french spelling.
What makes no sense, is:
1) you going on about +/- as if I care about it, or as if I was talking about it even
2) you continue to make ASSumptions on what I think of Cammalleri
3) you not knowing the correct spelling of your supposed favourite NHL team
Don't worry, won't bother you again in this thread.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2011 : 14:52:21
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i don't recall bringing up Kessel and the fun thing about forums is it's all right there Slozo i just have to go back and read that infact nuxfan brought up Kessel and then you were the one who broke down their stats in comparison and you were also the one who keeps saying the habs should be worried about Cammalleri's decline in production i was simply mentioning that his declined stats are pretty close to on par with the player you and Nuxfan brought into this in Kessel to point out if Cammy's stats are to be concerned with then why not be concerned with st Phil? oh and i am english speaking so i spell Canadians as such i couldn't care less that the offical speeling is in french but of course they're just suposidly my favorite team,,,
you started the comaprison of the two players but yet i continu it and all of a sudden i'm off topic and you're done with this argument,, bla bla bla weak slozo weak,, and of course plus minus doesn't matter when it doesn't favor your argument but if the shoe was on the other foot it may matter much more,,, but nooooooooo you'll say no i never cared for plus minus it's a usless stat bla bla bla
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Montreal Canadians 2011-2012 team 
