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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
 Posted - 09/15/2011 : 09:47:42
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Poll Question:
LA and Doughty seem to be at a stalemate: Doughty is looking for 7M+ per season on a long-ish term deal, while LA are countering with 6.8M/year - the same that they pay Kopitar. Lombardi has specifically said that they will not pay Doughty (or by extension, any player), more than they pay Kopitar.
Is Doughty worth more than Kopitar?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2011 : 10:25:34
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| Doughty is worth it, and the Kings made a similar offer to Kopitar's contract. It was turned down due to the length of contract at 7+ years. Doughty doesn't want more than 4-5 years. I agree, 7 years is a long time to play for a team which has a spotty record of making, then failing to make the playoffs and a horrible record in the post season. Of course the future does look bright for this team. |
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Guest0650
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Posted - 09/15/2011 : 19:09:44
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
LA and Doughty seem to be at a stalemate: Doughty is looking for 7M+ per season on a long-ish term deal, while LA are countering with 6.8M/year - the same that they pay Kopitar. Lombardi has specifically said that they will not pay Doughty (or by extension, any player), more than they pay Kopitar.
Is Doughty worth more than Kopitar?
I love what Lombardy is doing. This is much more responsible than giving in. Doughty as good as he is can sit out as long as he wants. See part of being a leader is to act like it. This is not leadership, it is greed or rather greedy agents.
This is the similar model to Detroit. For the longest time, ain't no one is getting paid more than Nik Lid in Detroit (cap hit wise). Period. Not even you Pavel. Only in his twillight has someone's cap hit gone above Lidstrom's.
LA has identified Anze as the man. That's it. Fall in line or you can sulk. LA is willing to have two pillars, but try to go out do each other.
Good job Lombardi. Keep up the good work. You've got a great team there. If sulky fall in line in pay, no problem. LA is just fine without him. Not great but just fine. Wish more GMs can be like Lombardi rather than Sather who throws away money for what ever toy du jour may be. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2011 : 21:17:41
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quote:
This is much more responsible than giving in. Doughty as good as he is can sit out as long as he wants
That being said, if this goes on much longer, Doughty will very likely get an offer sheet, from someone - which will force the issue.
But I agree, I like what LA is doing here as well. They have enough depth on defense that, were they to have to wait for Doughty or lose him outright, they will still have a passable backend (plus they have some decent prospects).
Plus, I don't honestly think he's worth 7M per year - right now. He had a good rookie year, a great sophomore year, and then took a small step backwards last season. If you're LA, you have to be wondering, am I signing "year-2 Doughty", or "year-3 Doughty"? One is probably worth 7M a season, while the other is decidedly not. |
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Kirby
Top Prospect
Canada
66 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 00:42:38
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Doughty is worth it. This kid is like 21, alot of defensemen take alot longer to develop. I would almost be willing to sign him and give up the 4 1st rounders or whatever it is. This kid is great and will be for a long time, and in my opinion is way better than Kopitar. A defensemen like this is rare, and if Lombardi is smart, he will lock him up. He is well worth the 7+mil.
A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be. -Wayne Gretzky |
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Guest6786
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Posted - 09/16/2011 : 07:06:56
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hard to justiy paying him +$7M when guys like Tavares and Myers just signed long-term for $5.5M.
similar age group, and all are considered to be cornerstone players for their respective teams. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 07:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirby
Doughty is worth it. This kid is like 21, alot of defensemen take alot longer to develop. I would almost be willing to sign him and give up the 4 1st rounders or whatever it is. This kid is great and will be for a long time, and in my opinion is way better than Kopitar. A defensemen like this is rare, and if Lombardi is smart, he will lock him up. He is well worth the 7+mil.
A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be. -Wayne Gretzky
These kind of opinions make me scratch my head every single time. To people not see the value in 1st round draft picks?? I mean, this 4-1st rounders is laughable.
I can think of less than 10 players in my lifetime of watching hockey (25+ years) that are worth 4-1st round draft picks. Drew Doughty is not one of them. As the last guest stated, when a guy like Tyler Myers signs for $5.5 million, why would I sign Doughty to $7+ million??? I know Doughty is a better player but not that substantially. Secondly, hockey is a team game and I need a great team to win. If I over pay for Doughty I have less money to spend on other players.
Dumb. Simply dumb. A greedy kid is all this is about. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 08:09:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Kirby
Doughty is worth it. This kid is like 21, alot of defensemen take alot longer to develop. I would almost be willing to sign him and give up the 4 1st rounders or whatever it is. This kid is great and will be for a long time, and in my opinion is way better than Kopitar. A defensemen like this is rare, and if Lombardi is smart, he will lock him up. He is well worth the 7+mil.
A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be. -Wayne Gretzky
i like this comparison because we may be saying in 2 years Myers is the better defenseman, i mean Doughty is elite but he hasn`t been elite for very long we have seen elite d man become very ordinary afer signing very lucrative and long term deal, see Bowmeester Campbell and many more,
These kind of opinions make me scratch my head every single time. To people not see the value in 1st round draft picks?? I mean, this 4-1st rounders is laughable.
I can think of less than 10 players in my lifetime of watching hockey (25+ years) that are worth 4-1st round draft picks. Drew Doughty is not one of them. As the last guest stated, when a guy like Tyler Myers signs for $5.5 million, why would I sign Doughty to $7+ million??? I know Doughty is a better player but not that substantially. Secondly, hockey is a team game and I need a great team to win. If I over pay for Doughty I have less money to spend on other players.
Dumb. Simply dumb. A greedy kid is all this is about.
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 08:09:45
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quote:
Doughty is worth it. This kid is like 21, alot of defensemen take alot longer to develop. I would almost be willing to sign him and give up the 4 1st rounders or whatever it is. This kid is great and will be for a long time, and in my opinion is way better than Kopitar. A defensemen like this is rare, and if Lombardi is smart, he will lock him up. He is well worth the 7+mil.
I believe the Flames said many of the same things about Dion Phaneuf before they locked him up in his current deal at 6.5M (at the time a great deal of money for a defenseman).
Its hard to compare dmen to forwards, and therefore hard to quantify that Doughty is "way better" than Kopitar. I think they're both top players in their respective positions, and you can argue about whether a top dman or a top centre is more important to your team. It sounds like LA has said "they're both important and we want to pay them the same".
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Oilearl
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
268 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 10:58:23
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They should be paid the same, the difference in the amount of money shows me that Doughty has a greedy agent!! There is no way that this will be good for team unity. Lombardi has it right I hope Doughty steps up and agrees to put the team ahead of himself.
LA looks very strong and poised to make a serious challenge this year in the west. They need to put this issue behind them though! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:04:39
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I did hear today that the sticky point isn't the money, it's the term. LA wants a 7 yr deal at an average hit of $6.8 million. Doughty's camp said the money is fine but they want a 4-5 year deal only.
Regardless, I can't stand when players make these kinds of demands. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2011 : 11:12:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I did hear today that the sticky point isn't the money, it's the term. LA wants a 7 yr deal at an average hit of $6.8 million. Doughty's camp said the money is fine but they want a 4-5 year deal only.
Regardless, I can't stand when players make these kinds of demands.
Especially when they are 21 and RFA's |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 08:29:40
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From what I just read, it sounds like Doughty has not shown up to camp yet for LA.
Jeez, for something that was supposed to be an easy signing . . . this has sure taken a turn for the worse. How far will Doughty take this, I wonder?
Definitely makes me think twice about picking up Doughty in a pool.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 10:25:06
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I read this week end that Lombardi said for every day that Doughty doesn't show up for camp the offer goes down. The story reported that prior to the new CBA, training camp was not considered part of the season and players were not paid. However, the new CBA included training camp. Lombardi says he is not paying for time that Doughty is not with his team and getting read for the season. It works out to be $25,000 a day.
Give Lombardi GM of the year!! I love when guys make a stand against players demands. I can understand a situation like Weber and Nashville when they offered him like 1/2 the market value. However, this would make Doughty one of the top 5 paid defensemen in the NHL! It is more than a fair value and if Doughty doesn't want to sign, he can sit and rot!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 12:35:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I read this week end that Lombardi said for every day that Doughty doesn't show up for camp the offer goes down. The story reported that prior to the new CBA, training camp was not considered part of the season and players were not paid. However, the new CBA included training camp. Lombardi says he is not paying for time that Doughty is not with his team and getting read for the season. It works out to be $25,000 a day.
Give Lombardi GM of the year!! I love when guys make a stand against players demands. I can understand a situation like Weber and Nashville when they offered him like 1/2 the market value. However, this would make Doughty one of the top 5 paid defensemen in the NHL! It is more than a fair value and if Doughty doesn't want to sign, he can sit and rot!!!
Beans i cuoldn`t agree more.. and the pre season opens tonight can`t wait to crack a beer and take a look at some of the yong talent trying to make the leage
"I led the league in "Go get 'em next time." - Bob Uecker
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 12:57:14
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I have my first pool tonight and it's my keeper. I have Doughty and always wanted to keep him but now I wonder. I also have Pietrangelo and Enstrom that could do the job.
Man what I thought was a wash is now a big dilema. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 15:55:25
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I think Doughty wants a five year deal only because he will reach unrestricted free agency by then, age 26.
Money may not seem to be the issue but player salaries seem to be going up. Maybe Doughty wants to test the UFA as soon as possible. Therefore demanding top dollar in his true prime, so then if this is the case, i guess it is about $$$$$$.
In the case of Tyler Myers, i`ve seen him play a lot against Toronto. He is a good young hockey player but 5.5 million per season for this kid...waaaayyyyy too much right now.
Where does it all end. If the going rate for Myers services is 5.5 million annually, What is Drew Doughty worth ?? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 06:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I think Doughty wants a five year deal only because he will reach unrestricted free agency by then, age 26.
Money may not seem to be the issue but player salaries seem to be going up. Maybe Doughty wants to test the UFA as soon as possible. Therefore demanding top dollar in his true prime, so then if this is the case, i guess it is about $$$$$$.
In the case of Tyler Myers, i`ve seen him play a lot against Toronto. He is a good young hockey player but 5.5 million per season for this kid...waaaayyyyy too much right now.
Where does it all end. If the going rate for Myers services is 5.5 million annually, What is Drew Doughty worth ??
It's tough though, because especially with a young talent like Tyler Myers - who does look like he could be the next Pronger, the kid is huge and has amazing skills - you want to keep these guys as your cornerstones.
And Doughty would absolutely have to above that, yes. No way he signs for below 6.5 mil average.
I think Doughty's agent in the end will have to cave . . . because in the end, the value of your player starts to drop dramatically when you have now a "malcontent" sitting out games while holding out for more money. On a relatively deep team that can handle missing him . . . it's a losing play, I think.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 08:35:48
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I agree that it is tough when looking at a player like Myers. However, I don't agree in the least that is is way too much right now. A defensemen who can play both PP and PK and will give you 40+pts a season has a market value of $5-$6 million. That's just the way it goes. A players such as this who is a perenail Norris contender (Doughty, Weber, Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger, et al) is worth about a million more.
$6.8 million is almost exact what Doughty should be paid, which is why the hold out creates such a sore spot for me. Take the money kid, don't be greedy. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 16:54:37
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| Although I hate the fact he is holding out and not reporting to camp, I hate long term contracts. If he doesnt want 7 years, I can see his point. Its not surprising that the team releases there demands but hasn't release his counter. I believe the money is sound based on his skill level. If he doesnt want 7 years and is willing to take less money for a shorter term it is his right. Why is it expected of him to give up 2 years of his free agency. I'd be happier if players took 5 years contracts more. It wouldn't skew the cap system as much. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 17:46:06
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Personally, I love the long term deal. It tells the team you are committed. Remember back in the day how rare it was for super-duper stars to be traded? I remember at one time Paul Coffey was the enigma and played for like 6 teams in his career. Now, players are on a different team every year.
If Doughty doesn't want a 7 year deal it tells me he is not committed to the Kings for his career. I would deal him. It's not like they could not get value for him. Or I would make him sit on priciple. Players don't have 'rights." It's not a right to play hockey. It's not a right for a contract the length you want. It's a privilage. |
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Guest0650
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Posted - 09/20/2011 : 19:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Players don't have 'rights." It's not a right to play hockey. It's not a right for a contract the length you want. It's a privilage.
I agreed with everything except for this. Players have rights to earn what they thnk they deserve, to make demands of safety, to play (if they are able and want to). They also have the right to sit on their keister and demand one hundred billion dollars, just like me. and just like me they don't get everything they demand.
It's ok. I'll get that beer myself honey. My right to demand it. Her right to refuse. |
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TheRC
Rookie
105 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 21:10:14
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One may not have a right to set the terms of his own contract as an RFA, but he can certainly refuse to play if he doesn't get terms he likes, and really, that's an RFA's only option. Ok, maybe (hell, probably) Doughty is just being annoying, but I do think it's a bit unreasonable that RFA's are stuck negotiating terms with a team that has all the power. If as an RFA after an introductory contract your team only offers you a 7 or 8 year deal you are forced to accept it? That hardly seems right. I don't like the idea of rookies fleeing the team that drafted them after a couple of years, but the fact that a team can basically force a player they draft at age 18 to play for them until he is 29 or 30 is a bit steep. There ought to be an upper limit on the second RFA contract as well.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail" |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 08:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by TheRC
One may not have a right to set the terms of his own contract as an RFA, but he can certainly refuse to play if he doesn't get terms he likes, and really, that's an RFA's only option. Ok, maybe (hell, probably) Doughty is just being annoying, but I do think it's a bit unreasonable that RFA's are stuck negotiating terms with a team that has all the power. If as an RFA after an introductory contract your team only offers you a 7 or 8 year deal you are forced to accept it? That hardly seems right. I don't like the idea of rookies fleeing the team that drafted them after a couple of years, but the fact that a team can basically force a player they draft at age 18 to play for them until he is 29 or 30 is a bit steep. There ought to be an upper limit on the second RFA contract as well.
"If at first you don't succeed, you fail"
Pretty much agree with all of this. Its not like a player gets to pick his team on draft day. I say if a guy wants to benefit from his first opportunity to change locations at his earliest chance, he has that right. L.A. should table an offer for the duration of his request and offer him less per year. Players have fought for the right for FA for a reason.
To me 5 years sounds like a long commitment. To trade away an amazing player like Doughty, because he say he is only willing to give you 5 years, doesnt make sense either. It is still 5 years. I can't tell you where I am gonna be in 7-8 years from now and at the age of 21, thats exactly what the Kings are demanding.
Take the 5, sign him for less per year and enjoy watching this kid play at an elite level. This is a cup contending team within that time frame, if this team keep up there level of talent and improvement.
I also see the point of the prior poster that said "the only option a RFA has during negotiations in to sit on his keister so that a team has to meet his demands". RFA's really dont have any other option. I dont see a team offering 4 #1 draft picks for Doughty at his expected salary level. He's good but that is a huge commitment and I wouldn't do that for any player playing in the NHL today. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 09/21/2011 09:35:40 |
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Kirby
Top Prospect
Canada
66 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 00:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by Kirby
Doughty is worth it. This kid is like 21, alot of defensemen take alot longer to develop. I would almost be willing to sign him and give up the 4 1st rounders or whatever it is. This kid is great and will be for a long time, and in my opinion is way better than Kopitar. A defensemen like this is rare, and if Lombardi is smart, he will lock him up. He is well worth the 7+mil.
A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be. -Wayne Gretzky
These kind of opinions make me scratch my head every single time. To people not see the value in 1st round draft picks?? I mean, this 4-1st rounders is laughable.
I can think of less than 10 players in my lifetime of watching hockey (25+ years) that are worth 4-1st round draft picks. Drew Doughty is not one of them. As the last guest stated, when a guy like Tyler Myers signs for $5.5 million, why would I sign Doughty to $7+ million??? I know Doughty is a better player but not that substantially. Secondly, hockey is a team game and I need a great team to win. If I over pay for Doughty I have less money to spend on other players.
Dumb. Simply dumb. A greedy kid is all this is about.
I said almost, not definatley. The arguement I have in favour of giving up the 4 first round draft picks is you get a product that you have already seen, vs potential product. For example, the Oilers first round draft picks 4 years in a row were Jesse Ninnimaki, Marc Pouliot, Devan Dubnyk and Rob Shremp, and Andrew Cogliano. I would trade all 5 of those guys for Doughty. On the other hand, the past 4 years were Klefbom, Nugent-Hopkins, Hall, Paajarvi and Eberle, which i wouldnt trade for him. The draft is a crapshoot, and hindsight is 20-20. 4 picks isnt worth it, 3 I would consider, and 2 I would definatley do for a player like Doughty, unless I'm the GM of a team thats already in contention for a lottery pick
A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be. -Wayne Gretzky |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 06:47:06
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As far as the draft pick question goes, ask Brian Burke how well drafting away 1st round picks work. Ask Philly how the Lindros deal worked.
Secondly, I just can't agree with any of these comments about 'rights." Rights are priciples of entitlement. Rights are owed and not optional. People have the right to freedom of speech(in theory). I have the right to a fair trail regardless of my crime (in theory). That is not what these players have. They have options with consequences. FA do not have 'rights' they have 'options." Doughty's options are to hold out or to sign. Neither are rights. Lombardi's options are to change the deal or make Doughty sit. Both are options. Could also be called privilages. None of them are rights.
That being said, I might just be from a different generation. I came from a generation of players being on a team for most if not all of their career. I come from a generation where a group of players stay together to try to win. I come from a generation where players played where they were told to play, not where they wanted to play. I came from a generation where hold outs were rare and it normally blacklisted a player. I don't like this revolving door of players every season and players holding out and all this crap just isn't proper to me.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 09:08:32
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Most of them are spoiled brats who spend most of their time playing war games on X - Box.  |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 09:59:42
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I'm not sure where I fall on this issue. Once again I think we have egos, getting in the way of intelligence, and because of the ever famous 'sound byte' reporting, we have to form opinions based on vague back stories at best.
If the sticking point is contract term, and the Doughty camp will take less for a 5 year deal, but ask more for a longer term, where is the issue regarding money that Lombardi has made the focus of the negotiation.
If he is stubborn because he isn't getting the long-term deal he wants, is he not as guilty as Doughty for 'greediness', albeit from a different angle?
I'm not sure why a 5 year deal, at a lesser dollar/cap hit value is not an acceptable solution. I agree with Beans about today's players lack of loyalty et. al,, but the reality is what it is, and I, IMO, don't blame Doughty one bit for taking a stand, the only way he can, due to his RFA status, rather than be bullied in to a deal he doesn't want to take, but has instead offered a viable alternative, that Lombardi doesn't seem to address.
If Doughty's issue with the term of the deal is the fact that he wants more for that length of a commitment, then I am unsure why anyone should begrudge him the option to refuse, priviledge to play granted, it's also an business with a shorter shelf life than the 30-35 years us working shmoes have to put in.
I dislike when a GM states, publicly, that player X, will not be paid more than player Y, ever, if for no other reason than it bolsters his demands in public forum. I understand it, I just don't agree with it.
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Guest6786
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Posted - 09/22/2011 : 10:26:50
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bottom line for Doughty really, especially at such a young age, is that the longer he holds out the more he's potentially ruining his career.
let's face facts here, for the most past Lombardi is holding all the cards. unless someone is willing to pay the price to sign him to an offer sheet, which at this point seems unlikely, then Doughty is going to be sitting on the sidelines. and if anyone is willing to offer up a trade for him then the asking price is going to be the equivilant of four 1st round picks......at least!
and Lombardi has options. if he wants he can go out and sign a guy like Bryan McCabe (just as an example) for a realitively cheap price. same as Doughty? absolutley not. but can his team still be competitive with McCabe rather then Doughty? of course they can.
what are Doughty's options? as of right now, it's either sign or sit.
if i were Doughty I'd sign. just because your signed for 7 years doesn't mean you'll be with that team for 7 years. anything can happen from one year to the next. just ask Carter & Richards.... |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 10:47:01
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quote:
I'm not sure why a 5 year deal, at a lesser dollar/cap hit value is not an acceptable solution.
From what I've heard, Doughty is asking for MORE per year on a 5 year deal - over 7M/season on 5 years. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2011 : 10:54:32
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
I'm not sure why a 5 year deal, at a lesser dollar/cap hit value is not an acceptable solution.
From what I've heard, Doughty is asking for MORE per year on a 5 year deal - over 7M/season on 5 years.
Well then his agent needs to wake up. If a guy like Myers is willing to long term for $5.5million, he cant ask more than $1.0million more based on potential. I'm starting to think he is leveraging the team for a trade. |
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Doughty vs Kopitar 
