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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2007 : 21:35:57
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There must have been a few other enforcers, no? Have to think about that tomorrow. But I think we mainly remember Semenko cause of who his client was.
I get what you are saying about the broken jaw scenario. Still, I just don't think that absolutely everyone in the league was always shivering in fear over the retaliation from Semenko, particularly to just an average hit or physical play on Gretzky, as opposed to really levelling him. But if I am wrong, you know what, Dave "Cementhead" Semenko was robbed of about 5 or 6 Hart trophies in the 1980s! |
Edited by - andyhack on 04/07/2007 11:36:56 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 21:43:09
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quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
Having your own tough guy to go after Semenko after he mauls you is a little bit "horse is out of the barn", no?
I mean if i hit Gretzky and have Semenko lay into me, then having Semnko get into a more even fight afterwards isn't gonna make my broken jaw hurt any less...
The telling difference.. i can't think of any other true enforcers that were around then, and yet Semenko, who could bearly be classed as a hockey player, is remembered still.
I was going to say this very thing. I can't really think of any other true enforcers around that time either. There was Schultz for Clarke before but other than that...?
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 07:04:15
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You may be right. Most of the tougher guys that are coming to my mind now of that era could also play a bit - Al Secord (played quite well actually, with a 50 goal season to his credit), Dale Hunter (maybe he is another category anyway - dirty/pesky), Probert (obviously a great fighter, but could play too) and Chris Nilan (was a better hockey player than Semenko anyway). I suppose Tim Hunter of the Flames was a bit closer to a "true enforcer". You western guys would know better. I guess John Kordic in the later 80s too.
But my general point is that, if not "true enforcers", there were "tough guys" in the league and some tough defencemen like Chelios for example. They couldn't have always layed off Gretzky (I guess I'm supporting the Ed/tctitans/Beans argument that he was indeed hit sometimes). But I'm also saying that some guys maybe not quite so tough who layed off a bit on Gretzky still had those tough players on the ice who might step up for them. It's not like the "broken jaw" scenario was automatic.
So I have trouble TOTALLY writing off the reason to just Gretzky's elusiveness and the Semenko factor. I think there was a third factor and I think it is that factor, no matter how small a percentage you want to put on it, that gives rise to this whole "unwritten rule" question. And as I said, my take is that third element would probably be better labelled something like a "lay off the superstar mindset" related to things such as respect, the incredible "buzz" around Gretzky at the time, a slightly less aggressive era for some reason, worries about severely injuring the game's superstar, and so on, rather than an "unwritten rule" which implies that orders came down from the NHL brass. |
Edited by - andyhack on 04/07/2007 07:06:41 |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 08:03:20
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Unless someone grew up watching Gretzky play it should be difficult to cast an opinion. If you watch all the You Tube videos you will see Gretzky never get hit, but they are his highlights not his low points.
If you saw a Scott Stevens video you would expect to see all his hits, not the few goals he scored, or some incredible passes he made...
Have you ever tried to organize an event with 20 people, you will be lucky to get 10 to agree on anything, now imagine you are trying to get 600+ players to not hit Gretzky, I am sure there will be a few that will want to nail him, but as I said earlier he was evasive...
The best way to convince a fool that he is wrong is to let him have his own way...
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 10:24:29
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I gotta say a couple of things. Firstly, Willus, you're really starting to sound like Gretzky NEVER got touched. That's bunk and you know it. He did get hit, just not put on his ass very often. There were MANY other players that you didn't see get hammered. It was a different game in the 80’s and one with respect that you don't see today.
And EVERY team had a tough guy in their line-up in the 80's. Once Semenko and Hunter and the likes started showing up, each team knew they better have someone to chuck'em or they would be intimidated and manhandled out of the arena every night. Many of those enforcers had a short life span because teams were always looking for better fighters or players who could fight and play. Also, it's a tough job and you can only get smacked around by Semenko's meat hooks so many times before you can't remember who you are in the morning. So you don't remember the enforcers because they were not in the league long and they didn't score much. Do you think anyone would remember the name Semenko without Gretzky?? Not a chance.
And there was an elite group in the class of tough guys too. Semenko, Hunter, Probert, Brown, Grimson just to name a few. You remember the names because they were the best. No different than a guys like Mike Krushelniski, Keith Acton, Kevin McClelland, Mark Napier, or Craig Muni. All were part of the Oiler Dynasty and all were decent enough players, but you never hear their names. I bet this is the first time the majority of those people on this site have heard these names at all. My point is we only remember the best, not the rest. So because we can not name 50 enforcers off the tops of our heads, doesn't mean they were not there.
I strongly agree with Andyhacks percentages. I do feel the majority of the "unwritten rule" theory is that of Gretzky's ability to avoid situations where he would be hit. Not the hit itself, because he did get hit. He just stayed out of situations where he would get hit. He would let Messier go dig it out of a corner and he would skate by and take the puck (for example.) Also, Semenko was the most intimidating force in the league until that guy showed up in Detroit. And lastly, there was a respect for the stars in the 80's that does not hold true today. One thing that does stay true is the league WANTS to protect its stars the same today as they did in the 80's. Only now, the players are not listening so well. And I do believe that the league sent the message to not hurt the game and keep the stars playing. This wasn’t only Gretzky, he was just the biggest at the time, hence, The Gretzky Rule.
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Blubberboy
Rookie
155 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 11:14:09
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quote:
Originally posted by ED11
Ok Willus I saw the 2 examples that you were talking about in that clip you posted.
Here is my take on them...
The first one that you were talking about, you are right, the guy could have drilled him and could have drilled him HARD!!! But for Gods sake Willus, think about it. I have played hockey practically all my life. Why would you hit someone if there is a chance of seriously injuring them? Do you know what I mean? I know there is a chance of injuring someone a lot of the times when hits are made. Like, don't get me wrong. Please don't get me wrong, I am a BIG supporter of hitting in hockey. It is part of the game! But in that case in the video if he hit him he would have probably killed him!!! Why would you WANT to do that to someone??? No matter who it is I mean! As a player you have a RESPONSIBILITY in that if you have someone lined up PERFECTLY and you KNOW you can lay them out BUT you notice that they don't see you coming, or that they are turning their back to you or whatever, maybe you CAN THINK and say if I hit this guy I could SERIOUSLY injure him. I coach little kids and I tell them that all the time. Don't hit to injury. Even if it is clean, but you can see that the guy might fall akwardly or into the boards or something because they have no idea that you're coming, why do it? Like I don't know how else to put it. I don't know if you saw the hit that Eager made on Stajan the last Leaf game but he almost broke his nose. It was a clean hit but why would you do that if you SAW that the guy wasn't looking? Like seriously. Even the commentators mentioned what I am saying. Hitting is perfectly fine, but as a player there is responsibility also.
The second part of that clip the guy let up because Gretzky had already scored so the guy stopped.
Ok, you know what? Here is the thing. I honestly think that people just want to see Gretzky get LAYED out ONCE and they will be happy. I think thats all it is. They go searching the net for that one hit that will satisfy them. And they can't find it so they say he wasn't hit AT ALL. Not true.
Not true at all. That is a nice idea though, (no offense)
Go Canucks |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 11:56:36
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| Another point on the Semenko factor. Semenko wasn't even on the Oilers in the 86/87 (traded very early in that season) and 87/88 seasons, obviously two very good years for the Oilers and Gretzky. It would be very interesting to somehow measure if Gretzky was hit significantly more in those years (I honestly don't recall that well). I know they had some other policemen like McSorely, but I would be really curious if life changed dramatically for him without his Number 1 enforcer around. Again, if not, there must have been something else. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 19:47:10
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Pucknuts you took the words out of my mouth. People gave him room because he earned it. It's a lame example I know, but even at my rec hockey level, if i know a guy is slippery I won't step into him, I'll back off and try my best to keep them to the outside.
Gordie Howe earned the room guys gave him. Gretzky let Semenko earn the space for him. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 19:49:25
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quote:
The first one that you were talking about, you are right, the guy could have drilled him and could have drilled him HARD!!! But for Gods sake Willus, think about it. I have played hockey practically all my life. Why would you hit someone if there is a chance of seriously injuring them?
Ask Scott Stevens why he did what he did to countless players. Kariya, Lindros etc... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 20:24:58
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I'm not saying Gretzky didn't get hit. He did. Not very often though and they were pretty much love taps.
Alright so now that we've pretty much all agreed that there was indeed space given to Gretzky, are his accomplishments all that spectacular then? If some other stars had been given this same "space" hockey history would look much different I think.
Myself, I wish that the enforcer had never been thought of. Skilled players always had to look after themselves. You had to earn your points the hard way. For the most part it is still that way. I just don't understand why people are ok with it for Gretzky. Look at a guy like Yvan Cournoyer for instance. 5'7" 170lbs. No protection. He has my full respect. I would have to say that this is precisely why Howe doesn't pick Gretzky as the greatest all time. He understands how he did what he did. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 22:08:44
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
I'm not saying Gretzky didn't get hit. He did. Not very often though and they were pretty much love taps.
Alright so now that we've pretty much all agreed that there was indeed space given to Gretzky, are his accomplishments all that spectacular then? If some other stars had been given this same "space" hockey history would look much different I think.
Myself, I wish that the enforcer had never been thought of. Skilled players always had to look after themselves. You had to earn your points the hard way. For the most part it is still that way. I just don't understand why people are ok with it for Gretzky. Look at a guy like Yvan Cournoyer for instance. 5'7" 170lbs. No protection. He has my full respect. I would have to say that this is precisely why Howe doesn't pick Gretzky as the greatest all time. He understands how he did what he did.
I'm not sure why you single out Gretzky here. Yes, we all agree that Gretzky was given a certain amount of space. But space was also given to Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic, and all other skilled (non-power forward) type players... So? Should we not compare the two because it's not fair? Maybe rate Neely higher than Yzerman because he was tough and got hit a heckuva lot more? |
Edited by - tctitans on 04/07/2007 22:18:15 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 08:10:25
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quote:
I'm not sure why you single out Gretzky here. Yes, we all agree that Gretzky was given a certain amount of space. But space was also given to Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic, and all other skilled (non-power forward) type players... So? Should we not compare the two because it's not fair? Maybe rate Neely higher than Yzerman because he was tough and got hit a heckuva lot more?
You must be kidding. Lemieux was given space? I quite literally watched guys hang off of him. He was constantly hit, slashed, hooked, crosschecked and tripped. Gretzky endured nowhere near this punishment. Do I have the stats? No. But I know what I saw. And I would have loved to have seen Gretzky put up with what Yzerman and Sakic have. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 09:45:08
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Gretzky went around players, Lemieux went through them, there is a big difference in the type of players they were...you will be abused more when you attempt to go between two defencemen rather than around...
There are: People that make things happen, people that watch things happen, and people that wonder what happened, who are you... |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 17:27:25
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| Gretzky was never hit because he was too crafty |
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stastnysforever
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
301 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 17:29:54
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If there was some unwritten rule about not hitting Gretzky bcuz he was too good, then what about forsberg, Lindros, Lemieux, Sakic, Kariya,etc |
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The Unwritten Rule 
