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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:22:06
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Poll Question:
Glen Sather had considerable early success as Edmonton's coach and GM. He is credited with assembling the dynasty that was the 80's Oilers. Post Gretzky / Messier is a different story though. In fact he's had a rather poor performance since then. The 90's Oilers were horrible and he hasn't been any better with the Rangers. So it begs the question. Was it genius that he assembled the Oilers or a stroke of luck?
Sorry I had to edit this after i reread it. Now it makes more sense.
"Go chase headlights!"
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Edited by - willus3 on 04/18/2007 16:16:37
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:22:46
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I would have to say genius. He had so many great players on his teams and its hard to do that with luck.
Always next year!! |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 17:51:45
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I went with luck. I do think he is a very smart guy who made some excellent choices back then. But "genius" just seems like too strong a word for him. When I think of a genius manager, I think of Sam Pollock making trades to manipulate the standings so that Montreal would get the #1 pick which he knew would be Lafleur, and purposely stocking up on first round draft picks for the Habs (not a team getting those picks by means of being low in the standings).
I guess it depends on how you look at it. Who knew that Messier would turn out to be one of the greatest players ever? If you really think Sather knew that, then I can understand why you would say that he was a genius. But my guess is that he was VERY pleasantly surprised. Pollock, like many others, knew that Lafleur would be great. There was admittedly no genius in that as it was kind of obvious. But there was genius in his very proactive way of ensuring that the Habs got him.
Also, as far as I understand it, you can't give Sather credit for getting Gretzky. As I recall it was basically a business deal between Skalbania and Pocklington. Could be wrong though. Anyway, some of the other choices were obviously clever, so when I say "luck" I don't mean to say that Sather doesn't deserve a lot of credit. But between the two words you gave as answers, "luck" seems more appropriate to me.
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Edited by - andyhack on 04/17/2007 17:54:44 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:04:24
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Most of you probably know the reference to Pollock which I made in the last post, but just in case, see below which is from an article in '73 which I just copied,
"Under the direction of General Manager Sam Pollock, the Canadiens have exploited expansion to replenish their bench and keep their dynasty in power. Unlike Washington Redskins Coach George Allen, who trades football draft choices for veterans, Pollock trades veterans for future draft selections.
Two years ago, for instance, he engineered a dazzling deal that brought Guy LaFleur, a top minor-league prospect, to Montreal. Having already procured the California Seals' first-round draft pick in an earlier trade, Pollock helped ensure that the Seals would finish last and therefore have the first choice of rookies. He accomplished this by selling a reliable veteran center, Ralph Backstrom, to the Los Angeles Kings, who were struggling with the Seals to stay out of last place. Backstrom's arrival kept the Kings out of the cellar. Pollock is such a shrewd trader that the Canadiens consistently come up with a spectacular crop of rookie stars..."
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Edited by - andyhack on 04/17/2007 18:05:19 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 15:09:16
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I think that he has a mix of both. What Andy said is true, who would have predicted Messier to be a legend. Gretzky's deal was more of a buisness thing I think. But there was genius to like getting Paul Coffey and Kurri. he should be paid full credit for his contributions.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 06:12:56
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I have to go with small part genius, large part luck. I think the planets and stars were perfectly aligned and all the pieces for the most part fell into place. He made a trade to get Gretzky and then they focused on being an offensive powerhouse. He added a piece here and there and they became a dynasty. But it seems that it all came together very easily which leads me to think it was more luck than anything. Since the demise of that 80's dynasty Sather has not been able to even come close to being as successful. After 91-92 the Oilers were awful through the 90's. Then with the Rangers he's spent an absolute fortune on "marquee" players, stacking the team with stars but has seen zero return. The teams he has assembled there have had no chemistry. I'd say he's pretty over rated as a GM. I think he's a great coach however.
"Go chase headlights!" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 07:12:56
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I agree with Willus. Getting Gretzky was a smart move. And the drafting of Lowe, Fuhr, Messier, Kurri, and Anderson was very smart. He was also very good and building the right players around that team. It's pretty hard to have a bad team with arguable the 5 best players from the 80's on the same team. But since then, he hasn't been able to build the same kind of team.
I think he is a far better coach than GM. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/19/2007 09:39:31 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:33:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I agree with Willus. Getting Gretzky was a smart move. And the drafting of Lowe, Fuhr, Messier, Kurri, and Anderson was very smart. He was also very good and building the right players around that team. It's pretty hard to have a bad team with arguable the 5 best players from the 80's on the same team. But since then, he hasn't been able to build the same kind of team. He won in 94 with largely an old Oilers team, so he went back to what he could count on.
I think he is a far better coach than GM.
What did he win in 94?
"Go chase headlights!" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 09:38:07
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What a fool I am. I could have sworn that he was with the Rangers in 94, but it was Neil Smith wasn't it??
My bad. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/19/2007 09:41:22 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 10:11:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What a fool I am. I could have sworn that he was with the Rangers in 94, but it was Neil Smith wasn't it??
My bad.
No worries Beans. I could have sworn he was too and thats why I went back and edited the comments at the beginning. It was Neil Smith. Sather didn't actually leave the Oilers until 2000.
"Go chase headlights!" |
Edited by - willus3 on 04/19/2007 10:11:58 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2007 : 19:59:20
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Below is about how Gretzky ended up being an Oiler (from Wikipedia). I guess the question is, did Sather strongly influence Pocklington to make the deal? Beans, you're the Edmonton guy here. What do your notes from your Gretzky 101 course in high school say?
"That year (1978-79) he signed with the Indianapolis Racers of the World Hockey Association (WHA) as an underage player. The National Hockey League (NHL) does not allow the signing of players under the age of 18, but the WHA had no rules regarding such signings. Racers owner Nelson Skalbania signed the 17-year-old to an eight-year personal services contract worth between $1.12- and $1.75-million US over one to two years. Skalbania knew that the WHA was fading and that the Racers could not hope to be included among any teams taken in by the NHL. He hoped to keep the Racers alive long enough to collect compensation from the surviving teams when the WHA dissolved, as well as any funds earned from selling the young star.
However, eight games into the season, Skalbania needed money. He sold Gretzky to his former partner, and then-owner of the WHA's Edmonton Oilers, Peter Pocklington. Although the announced price was $850,000, Pocklington actually paid $700,000 to purchase Gretzky as well as two other Indianapolis players, goaltender Eddie Mio and forward Peter Driscoll."
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2007 : 16:59:09
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Well, there is nothing definative about this. Although, looking back at Pocklington, he was a genius as buying things at the right time, and dumping them at the right time. I think, and most of the "Oiler Groupies" think, it had just as much to do with Pocklington as it did with Sather if not more.
Just how smart was Pocklington?? He bought Gretzky's contract for $700,000. He paid him an average of $800,000 a year for 10 years. So, before the "sale" Gretzky's total cost was $8.7 million. When the trade happened, Pocklington got $15 million in cash. So, without ANY kind of spin off money (which there was a TON of) Pocklington made $6.3 million clear.
Must be nice to think that you had the Greatest Offensive Player in the history of the NHL and he won you 4 Cups, and it didn't cost you a dime! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2007 : 20:41:25
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I said genius, simply because he was the right guy at the right time with the Oilers. He was a young man himself, and knew the right way to guide a young, cocky bunch of talented players. Could someone else have done it? Probably. But he DID do it, so I guess that's saying something.
Now with the NYR, he's less a genius, but still relatively successful despite a few big mistakes (Lindros, Bure).
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 09:22:39
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| Another thing that Sather did that most people don't know about is he forced his players to use their money wisely. He made his guys use financial planners to ensure that if their careers were cut short for what ever reason, they would not be financially burdened the was other NHL players were from the 60's and 70's. He was the first to do this. |
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Is Sather's success luck or genius? 
