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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2012 :  14:16:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't understand how everyone hates on Burke so much, seems like he's done pretty good putting a team together with the very few resources he inherited. The leafs are probably just few pieces away from a playoff spot.

Patience is the key here, Toronto being under the spot light I think they feel they need to be good right now, they should put a 3 or 5 year plan together and stop firing everyone that dosn't give them the holy grail in there first year

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
390 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2012 :  14:29:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
clatts... burke is going into his fifth year next year and hasnt gotten into the playoffs at all. i like burke. i like the moves he has made (mostly) (bringing phaneuf bothered me). burke has turned this team into a team that will be good in a couple of years.
granted leafs fans have been saying this for a couple years.... but they dont let their youth play or develop so i will continue to say in a couple years.
and besides i am aloud to have hope.lol

Edited by - mandree888 on 03/26/2012 14:43:28
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Guest2764
( )

Posted - 03/26/2012 :  15:20:17  Reply with Quote
Hate to bring this back up but i really believe it has been part of the problem. Phil Kessel. And the ironic thing is he has been more productve than even i thought he would be. But it a team results based business and they have been dissapointing to say the lest.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2012 :  16:45:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2764

Hate to bring this back up but i really believe it has been part of the problem. Phil Kessel. And the ironic thing is he has been more productve than even i thought he would be. But it a team results based business and they have been dissapointing to say the lest.



Yup, Burke's had 4+ years at the helm and not a sniff of the playoffs. The Kessel deal, regardless of what he claims, is one of his worst moves as are other controversial moves such as the Komisarek deal and not improving the goaltending, but he has done some good moves, highlights by the absolute robbery of Anaheim whereby he managed to snag both Lupul and Gardiner for Beauchemin.

From day 1, Burke has preached patience and told everyone that he's going to do a rebuild and not a quick patch for a playoff spot and nothing more. Prob is, that Kessel deal backfired. I don't care how well Kessel's doing, he lost some key components to his longterm plan by making that deal!

As far as people supporting their teams be it Leaf fans or others, it's all the same. Some are more fortunate that their teams win, others not so much. Leaf fans may disagree, but us Canuck fans have had it arguably just as bad. Aside from three finals appearances (2 of them losing in 7), it's been pretty tough over the years being a Canucks fan. But i stand by them.
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 03/26/2012 :  18:28:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Phanuf as captain is laughable, the Kessel deal if he had not made it would not have brought them closer to the playoffs, they would be better in the long run but would have ended up in a worse position this year for sure.

I don't like Phanuf but I think he got him at a pretty good price (Stajan,White,hagman and a pick if i remember correctly). It's easy to cherry pick the things they don't have and say he should improve them but what would he have to give up to address the goaltending concerns in Toronto? and I mean really bring in a top flight goaltender? It's harder being a GM than it appears in video games so give the guy a break and see what he can do with another 4 years.

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Guest4227
( )

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  07:34:29  Reply with Quote
Slozo
I had a quick look around on the forums today and found that you have commented on topics for just about EVERY team. I am sure if I looked hard enough I would find your comments associated with every team.

I can understand your frustration with all the comments. I would be upset too if people ripped on my team all the time. I mean it was only yesterday that you made the playoffs.

All the Leaf haters were doomed when Burke took over, it was only going to be a matter of time before they were competing for the Cup.

Next year as soon as they get Parise, Getzlaf, Ryan they will be set. Wait they need a goalie. How about Reimer, Franson, Kadri for Lundqvist maybe have to throw in a 2nd as well.

Slozo if you don't want other fans posting on your teams threads I would suggest you do the same.
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Guest6786
( )

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  10:19:01  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

the Kessel deal if he had not made it would not have brought them closer to the playoffs, they would be better in the long run but would have ended up in a worse position this year for sure.



this is a great point Clatts, and one in which most Leaf "fans" don't understand (the fans I'm referring to are the ones who expect to win the Cup every year). a true re-build is something that I beleive cannot be done in Toronto, simply because the fans and media don't have the patience to go through 5 years of completely sucking. this is only Burke's 3rd full season as GM and everyone's already calling for his head, or saying that he's on a very short leash because he hasn't made the playoffs yet. if he went about this the "right way" and re-built through the draft, the Leafs would be in a much worse position then they are right now.
now before i get jumped on with that comment, i should also say that I 100% understand and agree with the fact that we'd probably have guys like Tavares, Seguin, or Hall (just to name a few) on our roster, which would indeed be great for our future. but we'd still be a bottom feeder RIGHT NOW. eg.) the Islanders drafted Tavares three years ago, and they've showed very little improvement since then.
SO.......yes Burke could have had (in theory) Tavares, Seguin/Hall, and Nugent-Hopkins in our line up right now. but would that have put us in a playoff spot RIGHT NOW? my guess would be no. look at the young guns that Edmonton has. and they're still in a lottery pick position (sorry Beans).
my guess is the Leafs would still be sucking and building for the future. and in Toronto, if you go that long without at least a post-season birth, then you'd be an automatic target and your job would be on the line. no matter what kind of young talent you have.
my point? after 3 full seasons in Toronto, with no playoffs, in either scenario, i think fans would be calling for Burke to be fired, and the media would be speculating that his job is in jeopardy.

in closing, before i get jumped on even more, i should also say that if i had a choice between the Leafs current situation, or one in which we completely suck for 5 years and as a result draft names like Tavares, Seguin/Hall, and Nugent-Hopkins, I'd choose the latter. but that's just one fans opinion....
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  10:37:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4227

Slozo
I had a quick look around on the forums today and found that you have commented on topics for just about EVERY team. I am sure if I looked hard enough I would find your comments associated with every team.

I can understand your frustration with all the comments. I would be upset too if people ripped on my team all the time. I mean it was only yesterday that you made the playoffs.

All the Leaf haters were doomed when Burke took over, it was only going to be a matter of time before they were competing for the Cup.

Next year as soon as they get Parise, Getzlaf, Ryan they will be set. Wait they need a goalie. How about Reimer, Franson, Kadri for Lundqvist maybe have to throw in a 2nd as well.

Slozo if you don't want other fans posting on your teams threads I would suggest you do the same.



Learn to read, dude.

If you can find ONE topic where I posted in a thread specifically addressed to the fans of another team OTHER than the Leafs . . . I'd love you to show me.

This comment, my friends, is what you call a "classic strawman".

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  11:01:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6786

quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

the Kessel deal if he had not made it would not have brought them closer to the playoffs, they would be better in the long run but would have ended up in a worse position this year for sure.



this is a great point Clatts, and one in which most Leaf "fans" don't understand (the fans I'm referring to are the ones who expect to win the Cup every year). a true re-build is something that I beleive cannot be done in Toronto, simply because the fans and media don't have the patience to go through 5 years of completely sucking. this is only Burke's 3rd full season as GM and everyone's already calling for his head, or saying that he's on a very short leash because he hasn't made the playoffs yet. if he went about this the "right way" and re-built through the draft, the Leafs would be in a much worse position then they are right now.
now before i get jumped on with that comment, i should also say that I 100% understand and agree with the fact that we'd probably have guys like Tavares, Seguin, or Hall (just to name a few) on our roster, which would indeed be great for our future. but we'd still be a bottom feeder RIGHT NOW. eg.) the Islanders drafted Tavares three years ago, and they've showed very little improvement since then.
SO.......yes Burke could have had (in theory) Tavares, Seguin/Hall, and Nugent-Hopkins in our line up right now. but would that have put us in a playoff spot RIGHT NOW? my guess would be no. look at the young guns that Edmonton has. and they're still in a lottery pick position (sorry Beans).
my guess is the Leafs would still be sucking and building for the future. and in Toronto, if you go that long without at least a post-season birth, then you'd be an automatic target and your job would be on the line. no matter what kind of young talent you have.
my point? after 3 full seasons in Toronto, with no playoffs, in either scenario, i think fans would be calling for Burke to be fired, and the media would be speculating that his job is in jeopardy.

in closing, before i get jumped on even more, i should also say that if i had a choice between the Leafs current situation, or one in which we completely suck for 5 years and as a result draft names like Tavares, Seguin/Hall, and Nugent-Hopkins, I'd choose the latter. but that's just one fans opinion....



My whole point is this. You say TO can't afford to do a typical rebuild cuz their fanbase doesnt' have the patience to suck for 5 years??? Uh NEWSFLASH! They've sucked for longer than 5 years now! My whole point is that Burke preeched patience and was planning on the long rebuild like Edm has gone through. However, he made that Kessel deal that i still believe set them back an extra 3+ years in that rebuilding process! Again, in his defence, he didn't have a ton to work with when he got there. BUT, he went out and dealt a few very important picks that backfired on him. I don't care what any Kessel / Burke supporters say about their sniper (Kessel), they'd have been better off with Seguin, Hamilton, Knight, etc or whoever they'd have drafter (for those of you who don't like assuming those would be their picks).

Bottom line is Burke preached patience to the masses, then went out and tried for a quick fix. It didn't work and has prob set the franchise rebuild plan back a few seasons.
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Guest6786
( )

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  12:39:42  Reply with Quote
your right Alex, we have sucked for longer then 5 years. and what happened to every other GM before Burke? they got fired within 5 years of being hired! Fletcher and Quinn brought this team the closest to the Cup that they'd been in decades. two years after they did this, they got canned!
bottom line: if you don't win you get the chop! does the term "what have you done for me lately" ring a bell? because that's the way things go in Leafs Nation.

again, i agree with you......give me Tavares, give me Seguin, give me RNH, etc. i'd love for all those guys to be on the team. but even if we did have them on the team right now, we'd still be on the outside looking in, and booking tee times for April 8th.

most of Leafs Nation wouldn't see the fact that we have Tavares, Seguin, and RNH. they'd see 3+ years of no playoffs under Burke and they'd be screaming for him to be fired!
i'm not trying to defend the path that Burke took. i'm simply saying that no matter which path he took, if it didn't lead to the playoffs by now, his job would be in jeopardy.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  14:57:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
6786....Ok, i get your point. I misunderstood it at first but i now see you're making the point that regardless of the route he took, they'd still be on the outside looking in and people would be wanting him fired! And, i'm happy to see you agree with me that going the draft pick route would have been better.

I have to assume that Burke was up front with ownership when he took the job though? You'd think he'd have warned them that he was gonna need a good 5 years (that's approx what it should take a team with lottery picks to make the post season imo). Having said that, the Oilers, as you mentioned, haven't made it in 5 with all these lottery picks, but you have to admit, their future looks a little brighter than the Leafs at this point, no?

I'm not calling for Burke's head necessarily, that would be fair, cuz i can't stand him to begin with! Like i've mentioned, i just think he set the Leafs rebuild back a couple years or more with the Kessel deal which he thought (and i'll admit i did too), would get them into the playoffs (when he made the deal, or possibly the year after).
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  16:07:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sometimes I like just sitting back and reading a thread before posting. This one has been pretty interesting I must say. But now I think I will chime in with my 2 cents that I feel is worth a little more then someone elses just because I, well just because it is.
Now I feel bad for my brother leaf fan Slozo. Clearly this years fustration has gotten to you. I will admit also that this year perhaps a bit more fustrating then others because for the longest time the Leafs hovered from 8th to 4th in the standings, never losing more then 3 games in row, actually playing fairly consistent hockey. Then wow, February comes and suddenly they forget how to play. More fustrating to me to have that hope for the better part of the season then just crushed in the end.

Why do I continue to support the Leafs - short answer - they are my favourite team. Have I supported other teams, yep, huge Gretzky fan growing up so I cheered the Oil. But I always cheered the Leafs the most. My story is simple. Grandpa and I watching Leafs games on HNIC. Even though I have never seen them win a cup I can say definetly (at least until 2006) it seems I got to cheer for my team in playoffs more then my buddies were cheering for their favourite team.
You can say your a hockey fan so you cheer for everyteam, you can say you cheer for Canadian teams, you can even say you only cheer for teams with most players from Edmonton (don't know which team that is) and thats OK too. What ever the reason you cheer for a particular team, we go to games to watch our teams play, with hopes of them winning the cup. For some teams it seems to be taking forever to get that cup again.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  16:20:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since some members have brought Burke into this topic I think I will elaborate a little on that too.
As far as Burke goes. I think he had all Leaf fans sold on the hope of quick rebuild, he wanted to do it 3 yrs without giving up too many assets. The Kessel deal brought in a young potential star, hope for Leaf fans, but the Leafs faultered that year and the price ending up being too big. Kessel cannot ever play up to the price given for him. Burke swings a couple of great deals though. Somehow getting rid of Toskala and Blake was a bit genius work. Lupul and Gardiner have been a great addition. Like him or not the Phaneuf deal was a great deal for the Leafs as well. That brought the Leafs to this year, the 4th year, the year they were supposed to make the playoffs, the quick 3 yr turnaround in plain sight. Oct, Nov, into early Dec, Leafs are in first place. Two players in the top 5 in points. The plan has been working all along. Late Dec through Jan, the Leafs slide down the standings but are hanging in a playoff spot. Then February, WTF, what happened.
Let me tell you what happened, Burkes plan failed, the Leafs were playing way over their head. Teasing their fans. Burkes plan was to rely on unproven goaltending, a one dimensional sniper, and a defence with no real anchor. He was unable to put all the pieces in place in just 3 yrs. It just isn't possible. Could he have done things different? probably. If he didn't do the Kessel trade would the Leafs be better? Who knows. There are too many what ifs. Heck the Leafs could have tanked many seasons and had several lottery picks or first overall picks in their cupboard. Again though, you still don't know how that plays out too. Well the Oil kind of do but thats for another post.
The only thing that can be said is that Burke now has some young talent to make a team with, the cupboard is no longer bare. He did not throw away the whole future to unsuccessfully go for the cup. Despite of some others opinions the Leafs now have some talented prospects to work with and have not dealt them away. The management of years past would have given it all up just to be in the playoffs, thats why the Leafs are where they are today.
Burke may not be around to see the fruits of his labour, heck at this rate none of us will, but I stil like that he stuck to his guns, he tried to do something most thought was impossible but at least he tried.

Edited by - Porkchop73 on 03/27/2012 16:23:26
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Guest9830
( )

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  19:10:52  Reply with Quote
Typical Toronto arrogance displayed by Porkchop in making the comment about trying to find a team with Edmonton-born players to cheer for!

I'm pretty sure Edmonton produces more NHL talent on a per capita basis than Toronto. 23 current NHLers were born in Edmonton, and if you add in Ft. Saskatchewan, this number increases to 26. Not bad for a city with only one million people.

In fact, no NHL city comes close to Edmonton's success in delivering NHL talent. It's been this way for years!

Since this is a Leafs thread, can someone from Toronto show me how Toronto produces more NHL talent on a per capita basis?

If you annex everywhere outside of Toronto and consider the entire province of Ontario as being part of Toronto, you may have a chance. (Center of the universe expanded per se.)

It is this kind of ignorance (and arrogance) which causes people outside of Toronto to shake their heads in wonderment.

Now if by chance, Porkchop does not reside in Toronto (doubtful but possible), my apologies. But clearly the comment about Edmonton's lack of NHL talent is an example of myopic thinking.
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leigh
Moderator



Canada
1633 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  20:26:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9830

Typical Toronto arrogance displayed by Porkchop in making the comment about trying to find a team with Edmonton-born players to cheer for!

I'm pretty sure Edmonton produces more NHL talent on a per capita basis than Toronto. 23 current NHLers were born in Edmonton, and if you add in Ft. Saskatchewan, this number increases to 26. Not bad for a city with only one million people.

In fact, no NHL city comes close to Edmonton's success in delivering NHL talent. It's been this way for years!

Since this is a Leafs thread, can someone from Toronto show me how Toronto produces more NHL talent on a per capita basis?

If you annex everywhere outside of Toronto and consider the entire province of Ontario as being part of Toronto, you may have a chance. (Center of the universe expanded per se.)

It is this kind of ignorance (and arrogance) which causes people outside of Toronto to shake their heads in wonderment.

Now if by chance, Porkchop does not reside in Toronto (doubtful but possible), my apologies. But clearly the comment about Edmonton's lack of NHL talent is an example of myopic thinking.



PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2012 :  21:01:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9830

Typical Toronto arrogance displayed by Porkchop in making the comment about trying to find a team with Edmonton-born players to cheer for!

I'm pretty sure Edmonton produces more NHL talent on a per capita basis than Toronto. 23 current NHLers were born in Edmonton, and if you add in Ft. Saskatchewan, this number increases to 26. Not bad for a city with only one million people.

In fact, no NHL city comes close to Edmonton's success in delivering NHL talent. It's been this way for years!

Since this is a Leafs thread, can someone from Toronto show me how Toronto produces more NHL talent on a per capita basis?

If you annex everywhere outside of Toronto and consider the entire province of Ontario as being part of Toronto, you may have a chance. (Center of the universe expanded per se.)

It is this kind of ignorance (and arrogance) which causes people outside of Toronto to shake their heads in wonderment.

Now if by chance, Porkchop does not reside in Toronto (doubtful but possible), my apologies. But clearly the comment about Edmonton's lack of NHL talent is an example of myopic thinking.



Not only completely off topic, but clearly you didn't read the entire thread. If i'm not mistake, you totally mistook what PC was saying. Try reading the entire thread, and then maybe you will not only stay on topic, you'll understand what he was saying.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro



640 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  04:40:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow guest 9830! Thats all I got is WOW.
Did I screw that up so bad that noone got the point I was making. Simply enough the point was, you can cheer for whatever team you want for whatever reason you want.

By the way I do not live in the Centre of the Universe.

I did not get to finish my post first thing this morning so heres a better explaination

I live a one room farm house, with a rooster, a chicken, and a goat, somewhere in urban Ontario.
Last night when I decided the post on this topic the rooster said "Hey PC why not start with some good ol sarcasm" but the chicken who is always levelled headed said "Oh no Mr Porkchop, sarcasm is hard to read when posted online, people just don't get it". I listened to the rooster.
Then the rooster said "Hey big fella, why don't you throw a dig in about the Oil". But the chicken again retorted "Oh Mr Porkchop, you shouldn't do that, Beans doesn't like that and hes really a nice fella". The rooster won again.
The rooster spoke up again and said "Hey chop, throw some support poor Slozos way, hes getting beat up here, but don't really throw it his way, dude is way off thinkin that no one else can post here". Again the chicken chimed in "Mr. Slozo means well, don't throw him under the bus, he is a fellow Leaf fan ya know." The chicken made more sense this time.
So ya see last night learned that sometimes I do have to listen to the old hen or she just keeps peckn away til she gets what she wants.
That darned rooster should have never listened to him.

Please don't ask what the goat is for.


Edited by - Porkchop73 on 03/28/2012 05:58:03
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  05:18:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73

Wow guest 9830! Thats all I got is WOW.
Did I screw that up so bad that know one got the point I was making. Simply enough the point was, you can cheer for whatever team you want for whatever reason you want.

By the way I do not live in the Centre of the Universe.



My only comment about that guest is, ignore the trolling. I know, I know . . . sometimes I get taken in by it too, but it is a subject near and dear to my heart.

Appreciate the comments and commiserations, Porkchop - it's official this morning, the Leafs failed for the 7th year in a row, and it's now 8 years of no playoff hockey (I add in the lockout year).

Hopefully, we can get that top 5 pick - and hopefully, it's not another Kadri. If we can get lucky and get that 2nd pick . . . Galchenyuk, I think, my brain is fuzzy this morning though - that would be an absolute dream. But outside of those top 2 guys, all I know is what Bob McKenzie says, and I think he mentioned the top 5 look like a very strong draft class.

That's where I am this morning - dreaming about my Leafs mailing it in to get the highest chance possible at #2 - #5 in the draft.

sigh.

Is it always darkest before the storm . . . or is it darkest before the sun rises . . . I can't remember, but - it's pretty dark right now.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Lee Marshall
Rookie



Canada
102 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  05:51:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Up until last night the crying game was unofficial. Now the wailing and gnashing of teeth can begin in earnest. It isn't, as some individual hiding behind cover suggested, because we're the centre of the universe. [Clearly anyone who knows a pinch about anything KNOWS that the centre of the universe is New York City.] It's because for the 7th year in a row we have to find some other team to faintly cheer for...and for the 45th year in a row we won't be going to the big dance.

It makes the entire playoffs boring...although not meaningless. They just mean less...A LOT LESS. Why? No dog in the fight for us. Instead we'll offer up half-hearted cheering for someone else's team.

So now I have to hope that Calgary somehow squeaks in...that Roberto Luongo will somehow learn to keep the puck out of the net and that I can overcome my entire distaste for Ottawa. I don't cheer for [other] Canadian teams because I think they have more Canadians on them. [Only Montreal has more Canadiens on them]. I cheer for other Canadian teams because I want to see other Canadians enjoy the thrill of victory and to see the cup in Canada for more than a promotional visit.

The Leafs provided about 4 months of reason to believe that *we* were on a positive path. Then the team just up and imploded. They haven't won a game at home in 7 blinkin' weeks. This may be the most miserable season since 1968. If not...it's close. And it doesn't look like there's gonna be a "next year".

And stiill we'll chant..."Go Leafs Go." [although some might add..."...and take the Raptors with you!"]

Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.

Edited by - Lee Marshall on 03/28/2012 06:00:06
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ToXXiK1
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
696 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  08:27:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

I don't understand how everyone hates on Burke so much, seems like he's done pretty good putting a team together with the very few resources he inherited. The leafs are probably just few pieces away from a playoff spot.

Patience is the key here, Toronto being under the spot light I think they feel they need to be good right now, they should put a 3 or 5 year plan together and stop firing everyone that dosn't give them the holy grail in there first year

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors


Just guessing, but, "Burkie" stated when he got here, "we don't have 5 yrs to do a rebuild, we need to win now". Well, he's going into his 5th I believe and guess what?
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Guest6786
( )

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  09:20:55  Reply with Quote
ToXXic, this was my point earler when i was going back and forth with Alex.
IMO, the reason Burke said "we don't have 5 years" is because he knew that Leafs Nation wouldn't wait that long. so yes, he tried the quick fix route. did it work? absolutely not.
but even if Burke did ask for patience and told the public that it's going to take at least 5 years, and Leafs Nation fully understood at the time what it would take in order to build through the draft (multiple losing seasons). i would still bet that at this point, 3 full seasons into his tenure, Leafs Nation would lose their patience and still demand he be fired.
damned if you do.......damned if you don't.
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Lee Marshall
Rookie



Canada
102 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  09:31:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well guest...why we continue to cheer for the team seems to provide a wealth of answers and reasons. HOPE remaining a constant. If Burke has the team on a path toward that goal...it's good. If not? It's a failure. Someone said..."at least he tried"..or words to that effect.

He's being paid HUGE dollars and he's spending them in order to get "there". Trying is wonderful but ut isn't everything. He's got 1 more year to get in on track. Right now...he's all bark and no bite. Not good enough for ANY team.

Makes it hard to cheer when it's just not happening.

Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
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Guest6786
( )

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  10:33:21  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall

He's being paid HUGE dollars and he's spending them in order to get "there". Trying is wonderful but ut isn't everything. He's got 1 more year to get in on track. Right now...he's all bark and no bite. Not good enough for ANY team.



ok fine. let's go with your scenario. we miss the playoffs again next year. MLSE fires Burke, and brings in a new GM with his own blueprint. then what? we wait 5 years for him to work his plan? after 3 years with no playoffs again, he'd be fired to!
or worse yet, many of the prospects in the AHL that Burke aquired/drafted, start to make their move into the NHL and pay dividends right away. guess what? all the hail the new GM, he's a genius!
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Lee Marshall
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Canada
102 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  10:43:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Burke's losing his cool thread is one below this one...currently. Leaf fans will continue to cheer regardless of who the GM is. Ottawa turned it around in 1 year. Florida has come a long way with Dale Talon in a year...or 2. St. Louis turned their fortunes around how many games into THIS season.

Hope is one thing. Results quite another. Burke, so far, has only provided one of those...and it's quickly dissipating. It ain't just Leaf fans or the organization who would, at some point, say enough is enough. In every sport/every league there is a time limit. Burke called his. 5 years. He's NO closer to achieving his goals today than he was 3 1/2 years ago. The clock is ticking.

Maybe he can win at the press conferences. But THAT doesn't win games or cups. HIS agenda is not to be a short tempered, rude, sonofabeach. It's to WIN. That'll energize the fan base and MOVE product. It'll also sell playoff tickets and bring in LOADS more dough. Brian's failure is costing us time and MLSE money.

1 more year...max.

Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.

Edited by - Lee Marshall on 03/28/2012 10:45:43
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  11:35:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall

Burke's losing his cool thread is one below this one...currently. Leaf fans will continue to cheer regardless of who the GM is. Ottawa turned it around in 1 year. Florida has come a long way with Dale Talon in a year...or 2. St. Louis turned their fortunes around how many games into THIS season.

Hope is one thing. Results quite another. Burke, so far, has only provided one of those...and it's quickly dissipating. It ain't just Leaf fans or the organization who would, at some point, say enough is enough. In every sport/every league there is a time limit. Burke called his. 5 years. He's NO closer to achieving his goals today than he was 3 1/2 years ago. The clock is ticking.

Maybe he can win at the press conferences. But THAT doesn't win games or cups. HIS agenda is not to be a short tempered, rude, sonofabeach. It's to WIN. That'll energize the fan base and MOVE product. It'll also sell playoff tickets and bring in LOADS more dough. Brian's failure is costing us time and MLSE money.

1 more year...max.

Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.



Every Leaf fan here seems to preach loyalty and hope but when it comes down to it they are willing push aside the people who had the team looking good for most of the year.

Calling for Burke to be fired, Chatting " Fire Wilson" which is pretty messed up (an arena full of people calling for someones job). The leafs have the same team that played good at the start of the season, the crumbled witch happens to teams from time to time. A team is never as good as they seem when winning and never as lousy as they appear when losing.

You mention the Sens turning it around in one season? What moves did they make? They haven't done anything except for get decent goaltending (Which Rhimer could do next year) and wait for Karlsson to produce (Lots of young guys who could step up in T.O.)

Kadri, Scheen Ect. these seem to be the most hated players in T.O. because they haven't come out the gate playing like hockey gods, give them a minute to develop.

Anyway in closing you can fire Burke, You can trade away players, get rid of coaches but until there is a change of culture in the entire Leafs Nation where they will be more patient and let Gm's and Coaches develop a system and use it you will be destined for mediocrity in the centre of the universe, no wait... the centre of the canadian universe Toronto.

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Guest7111
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Posted - 03/28/2012 :  12:09:03  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

You mention the Sens turning it around in one season? What moves did they make? They haven't done anything except for get decent goaltending (Which Rhimer could do next year) and wait for Karlsson to produce (Lots of young guys who could step up in T.O.)



Sorry, have to briefly touch on this point. Last year the Senators' farm team Binghampton won the Calder cup. This year's NHL roster includes a bunch of these rookies/young guns who have since made the jump from the AHL including:
Jared Cowan
Erik Condra
Bobby Butler
Colin Greening
Zack Smith
Jim O'Brien
Kaspars Daugavins

and still waiting in the wings are:
Robin Lehner (Calder Cup MVP) (Goalie)
Jakob Silfverberg (Swedish Elite League MVP this year)
Mark Stone (Team Canada leading scorer at the juniors)

The Sens are a great example of how to re-build through the draft and the Leafs should take note of their recent success.

Sources:
http://www.ahlstore.com/teams/binghamton-senators/binghamton-senators-2011-calder-cup-champions-banner-with-roster.html
http://senators.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=622201
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Guest7110
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Posted - 03/28/2012 :  12:14:57  Reply with Quote
Back on topic:

I've sat by and listened to Leafs-fan friends blame the coaches, management, goaltending, goaltending, forwards, defense, goaltending, coaches, goaltending.... well you get the point.

In a way when you continue to have shortcomings in all areas that's a fault of management, but there is one other thing missing in the Leafs formula. Drafting. The teams that draft well are the teams that are always at the top of the standings (It's really the only way to stay there, see Detroit). I don't even remember the last Leafs pick that has panned out and it's not Kadri/Schenn.
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  12:28:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7110

Back on topic:

I've sat by and listened to Leafs-fan friends blame the coaches, management, goaltending, goaltending, forwards, defense, goaltending, coaches, goaltending.... well you get the point.

In a way when you continue to have shortcomings in all areas that's a fault of management, but there is one other thing missing in the Leafs formula. Drafting. The teams that draft well are the teams that are always at the top of the standings (It's really the only way to stay there, see Detroit). I don't even remember the last Leafs pick that has panned out and it's not Kadri/Schenn.



Tuukka Rask was a leafs pick, albeit he doesn't play there anymore.

Viktor Stalberg was a 6th round pick and is capable NHLer

Karl Gunnarsson was a 7th round pick and is a capable NHLer

Anton Stralman was a 7th rounder and is a capable NHLer

Rehimer was a 4th rounder and could be a #1 goalie

Tlusty and Kulemen are alos toronto picks that have worked out.


Im not defending there draft history just giving examples of picks that have somewhat panned out in the NHL.

As for the Younger guys (Kadri Scheen ect.) Like I said before give them a minute. They could become decent NHLers but they have to be given a chance. Theres a lot of pressure being a young guy in Toronto, to come in a be the answer for the teams woes

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Open_Ice
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Canada
109 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  12:48:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You're right, Rask was a good pick. The others have done well for their ranking but why aren't the early round picks working out? When the first/second rounders pan out is when you get top-end talent. Could be player development or drafting or a combination that isn't really working for the Leafs.

By the way Guests 7110 and 7111 were me, whoops.
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Lee Marshall
Rookie



Canada
102 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  13:02:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Odd...I didn't say fire Burke. I said...ONE more year. That'll be 4 1/2 years. And if it hasn't been placed on the tracks by then...well...nobody at ANY job gets to fail for THAT long.

I ain't singling out players. Wilson was a garbage coach. He should have been gone at the end of LAST year...just like ALL of his assistants were. Burke was too loyal to Dirty Ron.

The leafs need a first line centre. They also need a big, strong and talented top 6 power forward. They need a shut down defenceman and most of all they need a reliable goalie. THEN they would have a chance of being competitive and would be in a position to advance into the hunt.

Patience is a virtue....but it ain't "'cause it's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven....forty six strikes you're OUT at the good ol' hockey game."

Unlimited time to get 'er done is just silly. And it's not going to happen. Not in Toronto...or ANYWHERE else.

Who the cap fits...Let them wear it.
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  13:20:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall



The leafs need a first line centre. They also need a big, strong and talented top 6 power forward. They need a shut down defenceman and most of all they need a reliable goalie. THEN they would have a chance of being competitive and would be in a position to advance into the hunt.





First of all i wasn't speaking to one particular person but the entire forum, most have called for Burkes head. I was using your quote to point out the Sens argument.

Second Lee okay you've pointed out some deficiencies, You get to play GM for a day. How would you go about addressing those issues!? Are you going to be able to keep all you picks in tact and get a 1st line centre? Shut down defence men don't come cheep, nor do top 6 power forwards. And goaltending? So go on tell me how you would do it

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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mandree888
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Canada
390 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  13:24:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lee i dont want burke gone! he has brought in tons of assets that will be great one day. i admit that i was really hoping carlyle to whip them into shape quicker than he has and show us some promise heading into the next season.
i agree that ron needed to go because he didn't let the youngs play i am hoping that some make the team next year. kadri should be playing no matter what at this point and same with frattin.
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Guest6786
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Posted - 03/28/2012 :  13:57:50  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Open_Ice

You're right, Rask was a good pick. The others have done well for their ranking but why aren't the early round picks working out? When the first/second rounders pan out is when you get top-end talent. Could be player development or drafting or a combination that isn't really working for the Leafs.



that's because the Leafs never really started to properly develop their players until Burke got here. before him we always used to trade them away.
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Guest4558
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Posted - 03/28/2012 :  15:34:26  Reply with Quote
The real problem with the Leafs currently is lack of depth. Let's look at the teams that made the finals last year (and might very well repeat this year). Aside from Kesel and Lupul, do any of Toronto's forwards crack the top 6 of those teams? Not a chance.

What about defencemen? Going forward I'd probably take Gardiner, and Phaneuf would obviously at least make the teams (although not be close to top 2). The rest of the core is a black hole. Reimer and the monster are also unproven and worse than the other 4 goalies. My point is that If I was Vancouver and Bostons GM and I was able to take ANY leaf for free on my roster, I'd probably stop picking names after 4-5 players. That is pathetic. And there farm isn't much better.

Did Burke inherit a ridiculous mess? For sure. Has he responded to those depth problems? No. Next year he probably realizes he has to go all-in on making the playoffs or else he's fired, so look forward to selling the future away AGAIN for the best case scenario of sneaking into 6-8th in the east and getting destroyed in the first round. P.S. I am a die-hard leafs fan living in Toronto but I absolutely hate the state the franchise is in.
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admin
Forum Admin



Canada
2171 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  16:59:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys, as always thanks for the great contribution, but the topic is "why do we continue to support our Leafs" not let's talk about all the problems they have. Let's keep it on topic. Feel free to start a new topic or post these thoughts in the existing ones as applicable. Thanks!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  19:32:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by admin

Guys, as always thanks for the great contribution, but the topic is "why do we continue to support our Leafs" not let's talk about all the problems they have. Let's keep it on topic. Feel free to start a new topic or post these thoughts in the existing ones as applicable. Thanks!



Is it really that important to stay in topic, are we only aloud to discuss the topic as it was first stated? Let the topic take on a life of it's own please



"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  22:10:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Clatts

quote:
Originally posted by Lee Marshall



The leafs need a first line centre. They also need a big, strong and talented top 6 power forward. They need a shut down defenceman and most of all they need a reliable goalie. THEN they would have a chance of being competitive and would be in a position to advance into the hunt.







First of all i wasn't speaking to one particular person but the entire forum, most have called for Burkes head. I was using your quote to point out the Sens argument.

Second Lee okay you've pointed out some deficiencies, You get to play GM for a day. How would you go about addressing those issues!? Are you going to be able to keep all you picks in tact and get a 1st line centre? Shut down defence men don't come cheep, nor do top 6 power forwards. And goaltending? So go on tell me how you would do it

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors



I don't want Burke gone. Neither does Lee Marshall. Where is this majority you speak of that wants Burke gone? Give me some actual concrete examples please. You say most have called for Burke's head . . . I call bulls***.

I agree with Lee - I never liked Ron Wilson from (for me) about half a year into his tenure. And I tried so hard to not hate him and his arrogant attitude, thinking he had such a great resume . . . ugh. He was just brutal, and obviously the wrong coach for this team.

So you wanna be a smart-ass and you ask for answers?

I'll play that game - and I do have ready answers, trust me - but FIRST, you tell me what YOU would do, smarty pants. C'mon - should be easy, you are an unbiased non-fan of the team, right?


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4601 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  22:14:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by admin

Guys, as always thanks for the great contribution, but the topic is "why do we continue to support our Leafs" not let's talk about all the problems they have. Let's keep it on topic. Feel free to start a new topic or post these thoughts in the existing ones as applicable. Thanks!



No, he's right guys - let's stay on topic, me included. If someone wants to start a "what moves do the Leafs do next?" topic, we can talk about that stuff there - but this is not the topic for that.

I was at the 3-0 Carolina game, btw. Worst game I ever saw live, I will have you know. I questioned my sanity that night, but I bought the ticket a while ago as a birthday gift to myself, so what can I say.

Loyalty, that's it. Only thing left is loyalty. A blind, ignorant loyalty to a team that may well never repay the blood and tears I've given to the team.

I guess you could say . . . many Leafs fans, as myself here . . . have a bit of a martyr complex?

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  05:31:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do not follow the Leafs as closely as others here do so I have a question to Leaf fans.

Yesterday there was a team meeting led by Carlyle talking about the season and specifically what happens over the next five games now that the Leafs are mathematically out. One of the things discussed was the fans. I don't recall Carlyle's exact words but the team did discuss the fans, the passion they bring, and that they deserve better than what the Leafs have given.

My question is, has that happened before??? I don't recall any past Leaf coach bringing up the fans in the media in such a way.

I would think there is some renewed hope knowing that the fans are part something the Leafs are thinking about, no?? That might take a little of that blind devotion and provide a bit of clarity??? That is definitely something that Wilson would have never discussed in the media.

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Guest6786
( )

Posted - 03/29/2012 :  09:26:36  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I don't want Burke gone. Neither does Lee Marshall. Where is this majority you speak of that wants Burke gone? Give me some actual concrete examples please. You say most have called for Burke's head . . . I call bulls***.



go to local newspaper/sports websites like the Toronto Sun, Toronto Star, Sportsnet, TSN, etc... find an article about the Leafs. read the "readers comments" section. just about every person on there rants about how terrible this team is, and that Burke should be fired.
its a daily event in Toronto these days...
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