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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  08:45:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Point has been brought up in another thread, should Oilers keep him or look for a new coach?

Edited by - willus3 on 04/17/2012 17:42:18

Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  08:48:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think he deserves the blame for the Oilers shortcomings

I think he will be fired for sure.

I don't have an opinion on weather or not he should be

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  09:01:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My belief is unless he has a major disagreement and chooses not to return, Renney is the right guy in Edmonton. Bean's has pointed out that it was the veterans who did not respond to Renney and that the rookies and developing players did. I like a coach who can work well with developing players and this team is young throughout. Veteran core has been the problem of the last 3 coaches, so lose the underperforming veteran players and continue to right the ship
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  09:02:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He doesn't have to be fired. His contract is done as of July. They just won't resign him if they don't want to.

And I disagree a bit with Clatts on this one. I think that Renney has done an excellent job with the young players in Edmonton. I think seeing the development of Eberle, Hall(when healthy, grrr), and Hopkins in a very short time is clear. I think people also miss the other player who have taken huge strides during his tenure like Dubnyk, Smid, and Lander.

However, Renney has not been able to do much with the older players. Motivation is tough when the team is missing the playoffs, but a culture of winning starts with the coach and filters through the seasoned players on the roster and then to the younger players. Hemsky was a pile of cr*p for the first 50 games of the season and only started playing well again after he signed a contract that was over his head. Good on him for stepping up to at least try to earn his money. Horcoff was gross. Smyth was disinterest and lack intensity. Even a sparkplug like Ryan Jones took most of games 50-75 off and only started his fire again when he took over Hall's spot on the top line.

Renney also made tactical errors in his line up. Barker was bad from day one of the season and Renney went with him (or Teddy Peckham) over a very steady Andy Sutton on many occasions. Darcy Hordichuk made an impact with his physicality in every game he played but barely 1/2 the games. Temmu Hartikanen was another guy that made an impact in each game he played but was only in the line-up at the end of the season.

I personally think Renney has done a great service to the Oilers by bringing along the younger player but I think his time is up. I think he is not the right guy to move forward with. It's time for the Oilers to mold that winning culture and holding all players accountable for their performance. I just don't think Renney is the guy to do that.


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  10:32:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow thats a heavy crap you just took on your team. I didnt think it was that bad. I have really only seen a few games, highlights and havent attended any games live this year for the Oilers. What I have seen was early and midseason action and I liked what I seen. Horcoff even had a good start, Smyth seemed like the Smyth I remember. The last 30 or so games when the Oilers were out of contention I lost interest so looks like I missed a lot.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  11:50:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The crap on the team is based on how good some of the team played and how poorly the rest of the team played. There was a clear distiction in the effort put forth by some compared to others and frankly, the Oilers were a far better team than their record showed at the end of the season.

I am not saying they would have been a playoff team, but they would have likely finished out of a lottery pick if their vets showed up for even 1/2 the games.

It might also be a bit of fan frustration as it is have been multiple years of this kind of attitude from the vets. The players who should be leading the charge and providing the example to the younger players are getting outplayed, outhustled, and outworked in nearly every game in the 2nd half of the season.


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  14:08:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

The crap on the team is based on how good some of the team played and how poorly the rest of the team played. There was a clear distiction in the effort put forth by some compared to others and frankly, the Oilers were a far better team than their record showed at the end of the season.

I am not saying they would have been a playoff team, but they would have likely finished out of a lottery pick if their vets showed up for even 1/2 the games.

It might also be a bit of fan frustration as it is have been multiple years of this kind of attitude from the vets. The players who should be leading the charge and providing the example to the younger players are getting outplayed, outhustled, and outworked in nearly every game in the 2nd half of the season.


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



Well thank goodness the vets didn't show up, finishing out side of the playoff and outside of the lottery is an oiler fans worst nightmare isn't it?

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  15:30:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, if you are going to miss the playoffs anyways Clatts, why not get the #1 pick??


The nightmare for oiler fans is not losing, it's losing because of the lack of effort from players that have not shown effort in years.

The nightmare keeps repeating. Hopefully it ends soon..........


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  15:33:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Well, if you are going to miss the playoffs anyways Clatts, why not get the #1 pick??


The nightmare for oiler fans is not losing, it's losing because of the lack of effort from players that have not shown effort in years.

The nightmare keeps repeating. Hopefully it ends soon..........


Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



I will admit when I saw that Oiler logo being held up at the draft lotto i swore very loudly

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Guest8875
( )

Posted - 04/13/2012 :  21:12:10  Reply with Quote
I think Renney came in with a plan of developing a certain way and although I don't completly like whats happening I feel it's not completly his fault. I don't like how he said 'let's play this game like it's the first game of next season' - last game against Van. Then at the end of the game he is playing the third line when the Oil where behind. Obviously he should have Eberle and the rest of the young guns out there. They are the ones who come through clutch and how are they going to develop on the bench. I can't help but think maybe there is some things I am unaware of but I feel Renney should go. As Oil GM I would look to see if there is anything better and if not then sign him again short term..
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Cyclonis
Top Prospect



Canada
56 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2012 :  14:50:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ultimately it is the players that are on the Ice. Renny will need to turn things around thisseason but really I don't see it as his fault that they faded after a quarter of a season.

I don't see the issues around Smyth that others do as he played hard, killed penalties, and still almost scored 20. He lead the team in scoring for the first 20 games no?

As per the actual question asked: I say you keep Renny and let him continue to develop the young players at this stage. Keep them in his system for the time being and let them work on improving the team.

Eberle, Hall, and RNH are the Stars on the team moving forward and they wil be required to step it up and carry their team some nights when the secondary cast fails.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2012 :  15:12:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I dont like to start rumours, but after talking with a member of the Oilers staff it sounds like Sutter is actually being considered. Guess they haven't ruled him out. Not my first choice. I'd have gone elsewhere, but at least he is a true Albertan and Edmonton can sell the heck outta that.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2012 :  17:52:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How can Edmonton sell a Sutter? They are not Edmontonian. I would hate to see Sutter here. In the words of Donald Trump, 'uge mistake. 'Uge.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 04/18/2012 :  23:34:08  Reply with Quote
Edmonton doesn't have to sell a Sutter to anyone!

The Sutters are a respected (and proven) hockey family, and Brent Sutter is a very good coach.

As far as "selling" a Sutter, I'm not sure if the reference relates to whether Oiler fans would "accept" a Sutter as a coach, but if so, the Oilers don't need to sell their fans on a coach. The Oilers have sold out their building for the past six seasons, and along the way, they've traded or lost some big name players, and they've missed the playoffs each of the last six seasons, and most notably finished last two years in a row, and second last this past season.

And what difference does it make where the Sutters are from? In actuality, their home town (Viking Alberta) is closer to Edmonton than Calgary. Tom Renney was born in Cranbrook, B.C., and began his coaching career with the Kamloops, Blazers. And his first NHL coaching job was with the Canucks. What difference does it make where a coach was born or raised?

And lastly, Edmonton already have a Sutter on staff - Duane, who is a scout for the Oilers. Not a high profile position for sure, but it has to count for something.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  08:43:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lived in Red Deer when Sutter was the coach and owner of the Rebels. The Rebels did quite well and the Sutters were well respected in Calgary, New Jersey and throughout the hockey world. I think the fan base has sold out the arena but having Sutter on the bench be good for the fans, not named Bean's. Again he wouldn't be my first choice either. I'd rather have a guy like Crawford who has actually won a cup and works well with developing young offensive minded teams. Why isn't Crawford coaching right now btw.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  09:51:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
From listening fan in the Edmonton area and sports radio, it would not be a popular move for the Oilers to sign Sutter. Not only is he Calgary's 'sloppy seconds' but he is also a poor performing professional coach. Most people that are talking about it are not happy about it. Not just me.

Sure he has had some success coaching in the junior ranks, but his 5 seasons of NHL coaching without a playoff win tells me he is not a great NHL coach.

I just don't see the fit and I would not be happy about that decision. I am allowed to have that opinion, am I not???

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
266 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  10:58:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

From listening fan in the Edmonton area and sports radio, it would not be a popular move for the Oilers to sign Sutter. Not only is he Calgary's 'sloppy seconds' but he is also a poor performing professional coach. Most people that are talking about it are not happy about it. Not just me.

Sure he has had some success coaching in the junior ranks, but his 5 seasons of NHL coaching without a playoff win tells me he is not a great NHL coach.

I just don't see the fit and I would not be happy about that decision. I am allowed to have that opinion, am I not???

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!



He is 215-146-49 in regular season play

4-8 in playoffs. Beans check your facts. Unless you mean playoff series wins in which case he has 0, but then you should say series wins.

In any case those are not bad numbers considering he has never coached a team that was considered elite.

2 gold medels in WJC as well as a memorial cup.

In regards to him having not won a playoff series, Im not sure Edmonton needs to worry about that anytime soon.

They need a coach who is good with young talent, I think Sutter might be the guy.

"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  11:20:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You are right Clatts, I should have said playoff series, not playoff wins. My facts are fine, my typing is not.

And I emphatically and whole heartidly disagree that the Oilers need a coach for the young players. The kids are fine. The Oilers need a coach that can motivate and manage all players young and old. A coach who will demand accountability and get performance from the players across the board.

If we are going to talk about fact checking, Sutter has now has 2 'experienced' teams that he did nothing with. New Jersey had come off 2 seasons of making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They were hoping to move forward, not backward.

Secondly, the Devils teams that Sutter coached finished with 46 and 51 win respectively. That's elite enough to finish with the 3rd highest point totals in the East, includind a division win.

I guess you can't fault him for losing with Calgary. They just suck. No one could make the playoffs with that team.



Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  11:49:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What do you think about Crawford and has he been brought up in any rumours. I haven't heard any but would be surprised if he wasn't considered
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

You are right Clatts, I should have said playoff series, not playoff wins. My facts are fine, my typing is not.

And I emphatically and whole heartidly disagree that the Oilers need a coach for the young players. The kids are fine. The Oilers need a coach that can motivate and manage all players young and old. A coach who will demand accountability and get performance from the players across the board.

If we are going to talk about fact checking, Sutter has now has 2 'experienced' teams that he did nothing with. New Jersey had come off 2 seasons of making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They were hoping to move forward, not backward.

Secondly, the Devils teams that Sutter coached finished with 46 and 51 win respectively. That's elite enough to finish with the 3rd highest point totals in the East, includind a division win.

I guess you can't fault him for losing with Calgary. They just suck. No one could make the playoffs with that team.



Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!

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@valanche
Rookie



Canada
240 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  13:45:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

What do you think about Crawford and has he been brought up in any rumours. I haven't heard any but would be surprised if he wasn't considered
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

You are right Clatts, I should have said playoff series, not playoff wins. My facts are fine, my typing is not.

And I emphatically and whole heartidly disagree that the Oilers need a coach for the young players. The kids are fine. The Oilers need a coach that can motivate and manage all players young and old. A coach who will demand accountability and get performance from the players across the board.

If we are going to talk about fact checking, Sutter has now has 2 'experienced' teams that he did nothing with. New Jersey had come off 2 seasons of making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They were hoping to move forward, not backward.

Secondly, the Devils teams that Sutter coached finished with 46 and 51 win respectively. That's elite enough to finish with the 3rd highest point totals in the East, includind a division win.

I guess you can't fault him for losing with Calgary. They just suck. No one could make the playoffs with that team.



Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!





crawford is borderline backup goalie material

66 is > than 99
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  13:51:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Meant Crawford the coach/commentator for the playoffs, not Corey Crawford the goalie.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  14:43:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

What do you think about Crawford and has he been brought up in any rumours. I haven't heard any but would be surprised if he wasn't considered
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

You are right Clatts, I should have said playoff series, not playoff wins. My facts are fine, my typing is not.

And I emphatically and whole heartidly disagree that the Oilers need a coach for the young players. The kids are fine. The Oilers need a coach that can motivate and manage all players young and old. A coach who will demand accountability and get performance from the players across the board.

If we are going to talk about fact checking, Sutter has now has 2 'experienced' teams that he did nothing with. New Jersey had come off 2 seasons of making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. They were hoping to move forward, not backward.

Secondly, the Devils teams that Sutter coached finished with 46 and 51 win respectively. That's elite enough to finish with the 3rd highest point totals in the East, includind a division win.

I guess you can't fault him for losing with Calgary. They just suck. No one could make the playoffs with that team.



Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!





I have not heard any rumors outside of Sutter. Crawford is an interesting choice. Except for Dallas, he has been successful in most places he has been. The Bertuzzi incident not withstanding, I like his style. Although he has not had a bunch of playoff success since coaching COL and his last stint in DAL tells me he may have been a great dead puck era coach but the game today might not be suited to his systems. Dallas has seen more success with virtually the same team and a different coach. That's not a good thing considering Crawfords pedigree and experience.

Much like Andy Murray and Pat Quinn, I think Crawford might be in a group of coaches from a different era that did not adapt well to the new NHL. But I still would prefer to see Crawford behind the Oiler bench rather than Sutter.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  15:08:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Might have been a personality clash or the his inability to work with the defensive style of play in Dallas. Crawford only seemed outta place in Dallas. He always seemed like a well informed and successful hockey person to me. I think some team somewhere is gonna give him another chance.
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  22:39:11  Reply with Quote
I still don't understand the original comments made about Sutter not being "Edmontonian," and how the Oilers would need to sell a Sutter as a coach.

And please don't quote Donald Trump's catch-phrases. ("Uge mistake.") He's not worthy of being quoted.



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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2012 :  23:14:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What's not to understand? Sutter has spent 3 years in Calgary. Prior to that, his time in Alberta was in Red Deer and in the Viking area where he was born.

Does that clearly explain how he is not Edmontonian? If the Oilers are going to hire a coach who just coached the Flames into absolutely nothing for the past 3 seasons, you don't think there might be more than a few fans that will be scratching their heads at that decision?

And by the way, I can quote who I want, when ever I want, as long as it's not against the forum guidelines. That a 'uge benefit of this site; everyone can have their own opinion. If you don't like or agree with my opinion, you also have the ability to do that here. Clearly you disagree, and I respect that.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 04/20/2012 :  16:53:10  Reply with Quote
To be clear, I don't understand what Sutter's birth certificate has to do with anything.

I know where he was born, where he coached before, etc.

To me, it's about his (or anyone else's credentials). Do you think Calgary cares where Iginla is from?

Whether it's a player, coach, GM, etc., their birthplace (or the fact they played or coached for an arch rival) has little significance.

If Yakupov (the likely first overall pick) was born in Calgary, would the Oilers select another player because a Calgary-born player would not be "sellable" to the fans.

Most fans (including Oiler fans) care about winning, and very little about birth certificates!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2012 :  07:28:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very true guest, but what are his credentials at a pro level? He took a very deep and talented New Jersey team to the top three in the east and did absolutely nothing in the playoffs. H took a very telnet less team in Calgary absolutely no where.

His credentials, at least at the pro level, show he can win in the regular season and has proved nothing in the playoffs.

And it has a lot less to do with his birth certificate as it does his previous employer. What do you think would happen in Toronto if they brought in a former Habs or Bruins coach right after they were fired?

I don't want a coach from Calgary who got fired for not winning. It's against every fiber of Oiler fan I possess.

Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 04/21/2012 :  08:04:04  Reply with Quote
Beans - you make reasonably good points about whether or not Brent Sutter is (or is not) a good coach. That's not the debate. (At least with me it's not.)

My point (once again) was about your original comment ("because he's not Edmontonian") which quite frankly seemed uncharacteristically silly coming from you.

When I first read the posting, I thought it was Sahis (sorry fella), or that you fad a few "pops," or that someone hijacked your computer. :)

I also disagree with you about the Oilers needing to "sell" a Sutter, despite what you've heard on the radio call-in shows.

The Oilers will pick the best man for the job, and if it's Sutter, I doubt that even one season ticket holder will cancel their tickets.

And getting back to Brent Sutter being fired in Calgary for not winning, Calgary finished about where they should have, considering the age of the team, and the number of injuries they had this past season.

And maybe Sutter was fired for having philosophical differences with Jay Feaster (Calgary's GM) as some people have speculated?

But Sutter's credentials or coaching ability is not the dispute. I still maintain that a coach's birth certificate is irrelevant, and whatever the Oilers decide, they will pick the best man for the job regardless of birthplace.
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Guest4377
( )

Posted - 04/21/2012 :  08:25:13  Reply with Quote
Here are a few examples (there are countless more) of teams bringing in players or coaches from their arch-rival:

~ Pat Burns going from Montreal to Toronto. (I know he wasn't fired by the Habs, but he was the "enemy" beforehand.)

~ Steve Smith from Edmonton (player) to Calgary (player, then coach) then back to Edmonton.

~ And how about Doug Risebrough? He was hated by Oiler fans, highlighted with his famous cutting Marty McSorley's jersey with his skates after a huge melee. Risebrough went on to become the VP of Hockey Operations for the Oilers fom 1996-1999.

Players, coaches, GMs move around all the time, and decisions are made on merit, accomplishments, etc., not birthplace or because he played/coached for the "enemy."
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8174 Posts

Posted - 04/21/2012 :  12:44:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A coupe of things.

Firstly, I've explained the Edmontonian thing but perhaps not clearly enough from the start. The guy doesn't have to have been born in Edmonton but there are clearly Edmonton guys and Calgary guys in this province. Sutter is not an Edmonton guy.

Secondly, to the other guest who tried to prove me wrong. As i originally stated and the key point 'right after they were fired'. I know guys move around the league all the time. But I would think it is very rare of ever where rivals hire the other teams coaches after he was fired.

I just don't like Sutter as a coach in the NHL. Again, no one is comment on a very relevant point. The guy has never won a playoff series even with a very good team, and couldn't get Calgary even to squeak in.

He might be a great jr coach but he has not proven he can win in the playoffs as a pro.



Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
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