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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2007 : 16:04:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
And Willus, don't know what to say in response to you....glad you find your disdain so amusing, I guess!
I'm so glad you're glad. Which disdain is it that you are referring to?
And are you done trying to be condescending, belittling and insulting there guest 9910?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest6756
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Posted - 05/15/2007 : 16:16:24
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| Patrice Brisebois ... hands down the worst of all time. Here's a guy who has never heard of clearing the puck off the boards. I was so glad when Montreal got rid of this clown I wept with joy. |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/15/2007 : 16:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
And Willus, don't know what to say in response to you....glad you find your disdain so amusing, I guess!
I'm so glad you're glad. Which disdain is it that you are referring to?
And are you done trying to be condescending, belittling and insulting there guest 9910?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Condescending, belittling, and insuliting? Are we talking about me or you? And which disdain?! Oh, towards me and other people on this board, and yes, Gretzky (just one example... become a member, then MAYBE I'll debate with you..... If that isn't being condescending, I don't know what is). Perhaps I shouldn't have held up the mirror. Probably wasn't my place to do so (stating I detected a bit of resentment toward Gretzky)...that's only inviting you to do more of the same toward me.
Where's the 87 Canada Cup DVD when I need it..... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2007 : 17:30:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9910
I
Condescending, belittling, and insuliting? Are we talking about me or you? And which disdain?! Oh, towards me and other people on this board, and yes, Gretzky (just one example... become a member, then MAYBE I'll debate with you..... If that isn't being condescending, I don't know what is). Perhaps I shouldn't have held up the mirror. Probably wasn't my place to do so (stating I detected a bit of resentment toward Gretzky)...that's only inviting you to do more of the same toward me.
Where's the 87 Canada Cup DVD when I need it.....
Here's the thing 9910, I wasn't being condescending when I said join and I'll debate you. First of all it's hard to keep track of guests when debating. It's much easier when there's a name to go by. And secondly I would like you to join because you're articulate, intelligent and are knowledgeable about hockey.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/15/2007 : 22:52:45
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Thanks, Willus, that's kind of you to say, though I don't have as much experience as you do in the sport of hockey, I can already tell. You have a wealth of knowledge to share, which is nice for people like me who got started in the sport too late to see a lot of the good stuff.
Go Sens... |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 01:30:55
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[/quote]. Had he been willing to help his team win by doing whatever it took instead of worrying about the precious records he wanted to break, maybe he wouldn't be the all time leader in the ESGA category too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
[/quote]
This is very compelling. I am not usually very supportive of anti-Gretzky statments, but it is so hard to get this ESGA stat out of my mind, especially put up against this LA '94 stat (winning scoring race while missing playoffs) |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 01:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
This has also been discussed in another thead, but you cant look at ESGA stat alone without looking at the +/- as well.
there *is* a significant relationship. Neither are 100% telling, but they both do provide vital information. Discussing ESGA without +/- is misleading.
THANK YOU !! Finally, a voice of reason . |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 06:51:06
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Beans I believe you had mentioned you would like to see the ESGA stat broken down by year and per game? Here it is.
YEAR TEAM GP TGA PPGA ESGA ESGAPG
1980 EDM 79 116 18 98 1,24
1981 EDM 80 116 17 99 1,24
1982 EDM 80 123 14 109 1,36
1983 EDM 80 134 35 99 1,24
1984 EDM 74 134 31 103 1,39
1985 EDM 80 127 37 90 1,13
1986 EDM 80 162 42 120 1,50
1987 EDM 79 120 27 93 1,18
1988 EDM 64 99 21 78 1,22
1989 LAK 78 169 43 126 1,62
1990 LAK 73 153 39 114 1,56
1991 LAK 78 110 10 100 1,28
1992 LAK 74 114 16 98 1,32
1993 LAK 45 60 12 48 1,07
1994 LAK 81 138 29 109 1,35
1995 LAK 48 70 16 54 1,13
1996 LAK 62 76 14 62 1,00
1996 STL 18 25 5 20 1,11
1997 NYR 82 83 11 72 0,88
1998 NYR 82 85 5 80 0,98
1999 NYR 70 71 5 66 0,94
Total Seasons: 20 1487 2285 447 1838 1,24
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 06:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
. Had he been willing to help his team win by doing whatever it took instead of worrying about the precious records he wanted to break, maybe he wouldn't be the all time leader in the ESGA category too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
[/quote]
This is very compelling. I am not usually very supportive of anti-Gretzky statments, but it is so hard to get this ESGA stat out of my mind, especially put up against this LA '94 stat (winning scoring race while missing playoffs)
[/quote]
I appreciate your reasonableness Pickles. I'm not sure why people just write this stat off so easily. Why is he the leader in this category? There were many other players of his era who were lesser talents and yet he leads the category. And it's not an insignificant amount that he leads it by either. Messier is the next closest forward on the list. He played almost exactly the same years and actually played much longer but Gretzky has 383 more goals against. If there is an explanation other than he was weak defensively I'd like to hear it. In all honesty and sincerity.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
Edited by - willus3 on 05/16/2007 09:04:28 |
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BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 08:36:12
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Willus3, i don't consider myself a Gretzky fanatic. For superstars i have seen play, i prefer him over Lemiuex.
Even if i did, i would have no problem admitting that a favourite was a schmuk. I have this problem with objectivity. Gretzky was bad defensively. Except in the good offence is a good defence argument. Gretzky was not one of the great leaders of the game. Except in the fashion of leading by example, and even that was limited, while he gave his all, he didn't go in the corners, he didn't block shots,
However, I am stating that the stat is useless. I really don't care who it says is good or bad, the stat is a number crunchers wet dream. It is +/-, which is pretty useless, taken to an extreme. It is possible to make numbers say whatever you want, this is a prime example of that. Bourque showing up on the list is a direct and compelling argument to discard the stat as the meaningless drivel it obviously is.
There are many reasons, i suspect they have all been listed off by Beans and others, including but not limited to:
- Quality of opponents.
- Coaching.
- Majority style in years played.
- Teammates.
- Playing with injuries.
- Playing on a winning or losing team.
- Length of career.
Even going to a per game ratio, which makes it somewhat better, it is not possible to statistically compare players that played in the early 80s to players in the late 90s. The dominant style of play in the league had changed drastically
Now if you were to change the question to something like "worst defensive player, of players that played 1000+ games" or something like that, maybe i could agree with you. But as it is how can anyone agree that any player with so long a career as Gretzky could be the worst ever at anything.
Off the top of my head several players have been similar or worse than Gretzky defensively.
Similar:
Mogilny
B. Hull
Ozolinsh
Worse:
Antropov (more for the quality of his gaffes, rather than the frequency)
V. Bure
P. Bure
Daigle
Kovalev
Kovalchuk
I. Koralyuk
Tarnstrom
Domenichelli
Rivers
Janney
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 09:25:02
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Good post BigShow.
Btw I didnt start this thread. I also said that i didn't think he was the worst all time. I said worst of his era. I think that's fair.
Also I don't think the fact that Borque is on the list makes this stat worthless. It's actually logical that good defensemen would be on the list. They play 28 plus minutes a game and always against the best offense of the opposing team.
Also I am basing my opinion of Gretzky's defensive abilities on what I saw. I have thought this for years. Pretty much since the beginning of his career. I only recently happened upon this esga stat. Is it a coincidence that Gretzky leads this category while pundits who critiqued his game objectively, said he was weak defensively?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
Edited by - willus3 on 05/16/2007 12:33:59 |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 12:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Good post BigShow.
Btw I didnt start this thread. I also said that i didn't think he was the worst all time. I said worst of his era. I think that's fair.
Also I don't think the fact that Borque is on the list makes this stat worthless. It's actually logical that good defensemen would be on the list. They play 28 plus minutes a game and always against the best offense of the opposing team.
Also I am basing my opinion of Gretzky's defensive abilities on what I saw. I have thought this for years. Pretty much since the beginning of his career. I only recently happened upon this esga stat. Is it a coincidence that Gretzky leads this category while pundits who critique his game objectively, say he is weak defensively?
it's sometimes frustrating to read your posts Willus when the logic you use sometimes has 1+1 equalling 3.  (Mind you, I can actually prove that that is true)
There are some good discussion threads here however, that I may just plagiarize as examples if I ever instruct my logic class again (of course names will be changed to protect the innocent  ) |
Edited by - tctitans on 05/16/2007 12:04:12 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 12:32:34
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Perhaps you could give an example of my flawed logic TC. Maybe you just aren't keeping up.
If it's completely off topic maybe Admin would permit you to start a new thread about it. Up to you.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 13:46:18
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Yep my bad, i keep addressing you because you are on that side of the argument, and the guy that started it can't take the time to make up a name and sign in. I'm too lazy to be bothered trying to remember which number is which set of opinions.
I agree that defencemen that log huge minutes over a huge career will see a lot of goals against, but that Bourque and Gretzky both make the top five signifigantly devalues the stat to me.
If we are limiting it to Gretzky's era, Craig Janney has to have been far worse. Which id of course reflected in his ice time and career length. He was probably the worst floater i have ever seen. Bret Hull was about the same i would say. There are others in that era that are worse than Gretzky.
This in no way should be taken to say that Gretzky was good defensively. Or even average. Perhaps below average. But realistically, away from the puck, or in close, bad would be the adjective of choice.
Saying anyone is the worst at something is really hard to say objectively. They can be plenty bad and not be the worst. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 14:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
Yep my bad, i keep addressing you because you are on that side of the argument, and the guy that started it can't take the time to make up a name and sign in. I'm too lazy to be bothered trying to remember which number is which set of opinions.
I agree that defencemen that log huge minutes over a huge career will see a lot of goals against, but that Bourque and Gretzky both make the top five signifigantly devalues the stat to me.
If we are limiting it to Gretzky's era, Craig Janney has to have been far worse. Which id of course reflected in his ice time and career length. He was probably the worst floater i have ever seen. Bret Hull was about the same i would say. There are others in that era that are worse than Gretzky.
This in no way should be taken to say that Gretzky was good defensively. Or even average. Perhaps below average. But realistically, away from the puck, or in close, bad would be the adjective of choice.
Saying anyone is the worst at something is really hard to say objectively. They can be plenty bad and not be the worst.
Excellent points.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 15:36:57
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This is a list of NHL players with 200+ games played since 1968 with the worst ESGA/G...
Rnk - PLAYER----- - GP - ESGA/G
1 - STEWART, BOB - 575 - 1.362
2 - JOHNSTON, LARRY - 320 - 1.334
3 - LYNCH, JACK - 382 - 1.309
4 - LARSON, REED - 904 - 1.304
5 - HUBER, WILLIE - 655 - 1.296
6 - OWCHAR, DENNIS - 288 - 1.253
7 - TURNBULL, IAN - 628 - 1.250
8 - GRETZKY, WAYNE - 1487 - 1.236
9 - WILKINS, BARRY - 417 - 1.213
10 - LONG, BARRY - 280 - 1.211
11 - BURROWS, DAVE - 724 - 1.209
12 - LEMIEUX, MARIO - 915 - 1.208
13 - MAXWELL, BRAD - 612 - 1.206
14 - CHRISTIE, MIKE - 412 - 1.194
15 - GIBBS, BARRY - 792 - 1.193
16 - VADNAIS, CAROL - 1076 - 1.191
17 - BABYCH, DAVE - 1195 - 1.190
18 - SALMING, BORJE - 1148 - 1.181
19 - BUBLA, JIRI - 256 - 1.176
20 - COFFEY, PAUL - 1409 - 1.174
21 - NYLUND, GARY - 608 - 1.173
22 - STACKHOUSE, RON - 889 - 1.165
23 - HOGANSON, DALE - 343 - 1.163
24 - RAMAGE, ROB - 1044 - 1.163
25 - BECK, BARRY - 615 - 1.163
26 - HUGHES, BRENT A - 435 - 1.156
27 - JOLY, GREG - 365 - 1.156
28 - CAHAN, LARRY - 283 - 1.148
29 - CARLYLE, RANDY - 1055 - 1.145
30 - HARTSBURG, CRAIG - 570 - 1.144
I thought I would hilight some of the Big name players...
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 15:48:29
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PuckNuts, where does Craig Janney show up in the list?
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 15:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
I agree that defencemen that log huge minutes over a huge career will see a lot of goals against, but that Bourque and Gretzky both make the top five signifigantly devalues the stat to me.
I
I'm curious why you say it devalues the stat to you.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 15:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
PuckNuts, where does Craig Janney show up in the list?
Rnk - PLAYER -------- GP - ESGA/G
700+ JANNEY, CRAIG - 760 - 0.828
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 16:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
I agree that defencemen that log huge minutes over a huge career will see a lot of goals against, but that Bourque and Gretzky both make the top five signifigantly devalues the stat to me.
I
I'm curious why you say it devalues the stat to you.
I can't speak for BigShow, but it certainly devalues the stat for me. This statistic is being used to show how bad a player was defensively, more specifically, the worst ever. In my opinion, there are far too many players on this list that I don't consider bad defensively, the opposite in fact (Players like Babych, Salming, Ramage, Carlyle, Hartsburg, Bourque, ...). It's because of this that it doesnt make sense to use this stat the way it was used in the orginal argument.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 16:24:08
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Alright PuckNuts, now, can you do a smattering of players that played roughly the same era and similar number of career games?
You are loving this aren't you PuckNuts? All these stats. You must be in heaven.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 16:29:54
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I find it interesting that the difference between Lemieux and Gretzky is 0.03 esga/game. Yet, Lemieux was a big, fairly physical player and many consider him a better defensive player than Gretzky. Before these latest esga stats by PuckNuts, a poll with the question of who is the better defensive player, Gretzky of Lemieux? Lemieux would have won by a landslide. But if you put value into the esga stats, it's not the case.
Again, I stand by my original post, because Gretzky did not play a physical type of defense, it is the perceptions that he was poor.
I recall Gretzky winning most of his battles against the boards and coming out of his end with the puck. Was that not his job defensively?? Isn't that what many people on here have posted about Crosby's defensive ability?(Willus, I know you have.)
And Pucknuts, why didn't you highlight Jiri Bulba?? C'mon, Jiri Slegr's Dad. He was awesome!
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 05/16/2007 16:31:19 |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 16:33:31
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I am not a Bill Gates fan, but Excel works wonders once you have some data...
tctitans you are right, the stat is not justified as some of the great players were paired (defence for example) with weaker players during the 5 on 5 situations, and that may altar the stat somewhat...
I just like to post the stats so everyone has a chance to use them as they please...
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
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Guest7085
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Posted - 05/16/2007 : 16:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
. Had he been willing to help his team win by doing whatever it took instead of worrying about the precious records he wanted to break, maybe he wouldn't be the all time leader in the ESGA category too.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
[/quote]
This is very compelling. I am not usually very supportive of anti-Gretzky statments, but it is so hard to get this ESGA stat out of my mind, especially put up against this LA '94 stat (winning scoring race while missing playoffs)
[/quote]
Youre darn right, pal.
Oh... and another thing...Gretzky that year won the Art Ross as a minus player. That must be record #62 - its unique in NHL history. Pretty good for the "best player ever", huh? I wonder if he'd have even led the Kings in scoring if he played responsibly. Wiillus is absolutely right...woudl Team Canada have won Canada Cup 81 if Grets was more responsible defensively? How about losing in G7 to the Flames in 86? I mean chrissakes they only had to beat 1 team to get to the finals every year. What kind of a "dynasty" is that?
Ever wonder why no coach allowed a player to set up in the "office"? Because its a bad percentage play - for each goal you set up you make 5 bad passes and you're caught behind the net.
Taken in totality that ESGA stat says more about how 99 set his records than it says about Bourque who slogged up to 40 minutes a game (not 28, I saw a lot of Bruins games in the 80's) against tough East teams every night. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 16:43:42
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Alright PuckNuts, now, can you do a smattering of players that played roughly the same era and similar number of career games?
You are loving this aren't you PuckNuts? All these stats. You must be in heaven.
Can't we consider Coffey, Lemieux, Bourque, Babych, Ramage, Carlyle, Hartsburg... as roughly in those categories? |
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Guest7734
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Posted - 05/16/2007 : 17:26:12
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| This pro-Gretzky / anti-Gretzky "discussion" is sophomoric at best, down right idiotic (and boring) at worst ... get a life guys and move on. |
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Guest5518
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Posted - 05/16/2007 : 17:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7734
This pro-Gretzky / anti-Gretzky "discussion" is sophomoric at best, down right idiotic (and boring) at worst ... get a life guys and move on.
You a Gretz fan getting your comeuppance? |
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Guest5518
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Posted - 05/16/2007 : 17:43:10
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
I agree that defencemen that log huge minutes over a huge career will see a lot of goals against, but that Bourque and Gretzky both make the top five signifigantly devalues the stat to me.
I
I'm curious why you say it devalues the stat to you.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
The ESGA - ESGF differential of Gretzky is skewed by the padding of goals by 99. Dont ever forget that.
No one ever padded stats like 99 - scoring goals when its 5-2 with a minute left??? |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 17:47:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5518
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7734
This pro-Gretzky / anti-Gretzky "discussion" is sophomoric at best, down right idiotic (and boring) at worst ... get a life guys and move on.
You a Gretz fan getting your comeuppance?
Guest7734 is obviously an anti-Gretzky forumster that doesnt like the way things are going... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 17:48:30
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Oh, looks like Chooch is back!
What player in their right mind would not score a goal, regardless of time remaining or score in the game??
You are easily, the most brilliant hockey mind in history.
How can someone use one stat to knock a specific player and justify the same stat for every other player??
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 17:49:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5518
quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
I agree that defencemen that log huge minutes over a huge career will see a lot of goals against, but that Bourque and Gretzky both make the top five signifigantly devalues the stat to me.
I
I'm curious why you say it devalues the stat to you.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
The ESGA - ESGF differential of Gretzky is skewed by the padding of goals by 99. Dont ever forget that.
No one ever padded stats like 99 - scoring goals when its 5-2 with a minute left???
Absoluetly right Choocher.. No one ever padded stats like 99... Scoring when it's 5-2 with a minute left... when it's 0-0 and 20 seconds into the game.. when it's 4-4 in overtime... when it's ... |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 18:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5518
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7734
This pro-Gretzky / anti-Gretzky "discussion" is sophomoric at best, down right idiotic (and boring) at worst ... get a life guys and move on.
You a Gretz fan getting your comeuppance?
Guest7734 is obviously an anti-Gretzky forumster that doesnt like the way things are going...
Interesting assumption...
I'd say 5518 came closer to the truth.
And so you're saying you think this debate has gone more in favour of the esga being worthless side? That's strange because I still have yet to read a post explaining why if he isn't bad defensively it's Gretzky who leads this category and leads it by a country mile...
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
Edited by - willus3 on 05/16/2007 18:51:36 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2007 : 20:35:14
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Check out Bobby Clarkes numbers. Impressive.
BOBBY CLARKE
YEAR TEAM GP TGA PPGA ESGA ESGAPG
1970 PHI 76 68 24 44 0,58
1971 PHI 77 70 21 49 0,64
1972 PHI 78 69 18 51 0,65
1973 PHI 78 93 34 59 0,76
1974 PHI 77 63 27 36 0,47
1975 PHI 80 52 33 19 0,24
1976 PHI 76 52 30 22 0,29
1977 PHI 80 70 24 46 0,58
1978 PHI 74 51 18 33 0,45
1979 PHI 80 83 30 53 0,66
1980 PHI 76 77 33 44 0,58
1981 PHI 80 73 28 45 0,56
1982 PHI 62 68 28 40 0,65
1983 PHI 80 64 18 46 0,58
1984 PHI 73 68 26 42 0,58
Total Seasons: 15 1147 1021 392 629 0,55
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Guest9910
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Posted - 05/16/2007 : 21:00:03
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I thimk if we are going to compare the stats of two different players, it has to be done with plus minus. Hockey is about outscoring the opponent, afterall. I would hazard a guess that Gretzky had a better plus minus than Messier when they were playing for the same team. Maybe even over their entire careers for that matter (career plus minus).
Messier's role was much less offensive than was Gretzky's as well. Gretzky's role was simply to create scoring chances. Naturally, someone in a purely offensive role is going to concentrate more on offense than defence. Does it make for good defensive hockey? No. Did it work? 4 Cups in 5 years suggests it did. And when it counted the most (in the playoffs), Gretzky held up his own defensively regardless. All 4 Cups (though less so the 85 Cup) were also won on team defence, which Gretzky had to play into. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 01:48:44
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I realized something. Total ESGA is only half the story. You have to do a net total while including total ESGF. Oh wait... that's PLUS/MINUS !!
Hmmm... let's see here, Gretzky's career +/- ....
I also find it quite an eclectic mix of guys at the top of the ESGA list - but a couple of the biggest stars ever, and a high percentage of the best defensemen ever. Look at THEIR annual +/-'s too. I am wondering now about this stat.
tctitans makes a good point about Gretzky scoring in various scenarios - of course he did. If you believe Gretzky was padding his stats then every offensive player did so in the 80's. He was just a more gifted scorer so he has more goals/points, period. "Oh but he scored so many on the power play that it ballooned his total" of course he did : remove one opposition player from the ice and the most dangerous player just got more dangerous ! As far as the scoring thing goes, Lemieux was just the same (just to pick a comparable player from the era). Right near him on the ESGA list, scoring very similar sickening amounts.
Let's table a similar argument about ALL the goalies from the 80's era. GAA below 2.70 was strong, but does that mean all goalies from the 80's were the weekest in all of hockey history. It was the nature of the era.
I love guest 7734 saying that this discussion is boring and that people need a life. Only a complete moron would actually post in a thread that they don't like a thread. Isn't that the equivilent of watching every episode of a tv show that you despise, and then complaining about it ??
I agree with BigShow that this stat is devalued, but I did seriously chew on it for a while though. The presence of so many other quality players suggests so.
Finally, Gretzky wasn't bad defensively. He certainly wasn't the worst of any era, decade, season etc.. He played intelligent positional hockey to make up for his lack of size, and the rest was fantastic reading of the play. I am also not saying that he was a superstar defender either. He was adequate, at least. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 05:21:37
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This is a list of the top 25 players with more than 1000 games played, and stats since 1968.
The ES Dif/G is the number of ESGF/G-ESGA/G or (+/-)/GP
Rnk - PLAYER--------- - GP --- +/- - ES Dif/G
1 - ROBINSON, LARRY -- 1384 - 730 - 0.527
2 - CLARKE, BOBBY ----- 1147 - 506 - 0.441
3 - POTVIN, DENIS ------ 1060 - 460 - 0.434
4 - LAFLEUR, GUY ----- --1126 - 453 - 0.402
5 - McCRIMMON, BRAD -- 1222 - 444 - 0.363
6 - TROTTIER, BRYAN ---- 1279 - 452 - 0.353
7 - GRETZKY, WAYNE ---- 1487 - 518 - 0.348
8 - BOURQUE, RAY --------1612 - 528 - 0.328
9 - PARK, BRAD ---------- 1115 - 358 - 0.321
10 - RAMSAY, CRAIG ----- 1070 - 328 - 0.307
11 - PROPP, BRIAN ------- 1016 - 310 - 0.305
12 - CASHMAN, WAYNE -- 1026 - 281 - 0.274
13 - LIDSTROM, NICKLAS - 1096 - 298 - 0.273
14 - MacINNIS, AL -------- 1416 - 372 - 0.263
15 - FEDOROV, SERGEI-- - 1056 - 269 - 0.255
16 - STEVENS, SCOTT ---- 1635 - 393 - 0.240
17 - KURRI, JARI ---------- 1251 - 298 - 0.238
18 - HUDDY, CHARLIE ----- 1017 - 241 - 0.237
19 - ROBERTS, GARY ----- 1087 - 243 - 0.223
20 - JAGR, JAROMIR ------- 1109 - 241 - 0.221
21 - CHELIOS, CHRIS ------ 1476 - 329 - 0.220
22 - TONELLI, JOHN --------1028 - 222 - 0.216
23 - COFFEY, PAUL -------- 1409 - 294 - 0.209
24 - RAMSEY, MIKE ------- 1070 - 218 - 0.204
25 - LARMER, STEVE ------ 1006 - 204 - 0.203
Later I will post the worst players...
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 05:37:43
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This is a list of the worst 28 players with more than 1000 games played, and stats since 1968.
The ES Dif/G is the number of ESGF/G-ESGA/G or (+/-)/GP
In the +/- column the - sign is not a spacer, for example Don Lever is actually -240 for his career
Rnk - PLAYER-------------- - GP - +/- - ES Dif/G
1 - LEVER, DON ------------- 1020 -240 - -0.235
2 - BABYCH, DAVE----------- 1195 -223 - -0.187
3 - BOLDIREV, IVAN -------- 1052 -190 - -0.181
4 - RAMAGE, ROB ----------- 1044 -171 - -0.164
5 - BUCHBERGER, KELLY ----- 1182 -177 - -0.150
6 - FEDERKO, BERNIE -------- 1000 -132 - -0.132
7 - BOSCHMAN, LAURIE ----- 1009 -131 - -0.130
8 - CARLYLE, RANDY ------- 1055 -135 - -0.128
9 - UNGER, GARRY ---------- 1105 -131 - -0.119
10 - MULLER, KIRK ---------- 1349 -146 - -0.108
11 - BELLOWS, BRIAN ------ 1188 -125 - -0.105
12 - GILL, TODD ----------- 1007 -98 - -0.097
13 - RICHARDSON, LUKE ---- 1312 -120 - -0.091
14 - QUINTAL, STEPHANE --- 1037 -89 - -0.086
15 - LOWRY, DAVE ---------- 1084 -90 - -0.083
16 - HAWERCHUK, DALE ---- 1188 -92 - -0.077
17 - CASSELS, ANDREW ---- 1015 -73 - -0.072
18 - BERUBE, CRAIG --------- 1054 -81 - -0.069
19 - CARPENTER, BOBBY ---- 1178 -81 - -0.069
20 - SANDERSON, GEOFF ---- 1005 -77 - -0.068
21 - OLCZYK, ED ------------ 1031 -67 - -0.065
22 - CHRISTIAN, DAVE ------- 1009 -65 - -0.064
23 - FITZGERALD, TOM----- - 1097 -72 - -0.059
24 - FERRARO, RAY --------- 1258 -104 - -0.059
25 - VADNAIS, CAROL ------- 1076 -62 - -0.058
26 - SNEPSTS, HAROLD ----- 1033 -59 - -0.057
27 - LESCHYSHYN, CURTIS - 1033 -52 - -0.055
28 - DOMI, TIE ------------ 1020 -54 - -0.054
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 05/18/2007 06:28:08 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 10:43:43
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That is a very interesting way to look at this stat. The differential shows that Gretzky was one of the best, not one of the worst.
And I have put a lot of thought into who I think is the worst defensive player, not only of all time but of the Grezky era. Although there is not one that stuck out in my mind as the absolute worst, one kept on come back to me as a weak defensive player. It happened to be in Gretzky's era as well. Dale Hawerchuk.
The man couldn't even skate backwards!! He was a far worse defensive player than Gretzky. The ESG differential shows him as pretty weak as well.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 11:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5518
quote:
Originally posted by Guest7734
This pro-Gretzky / anti-Gretzky "discussion" is sophomoric at best, down right idiotic (and boring) at worst ... get a life guys and move on.
You a Gretz fan getting your comeuppance?
Guest7734 is obviously an anti-Gretzky forumster that doesnt like the way things are going...
Interesting assumption...
I'd say 5518 came closer to the truth.
And so you're saying you think this debate has gone more in favour of the esga being worthless side? That's strange because I still have yet to read a post explaining why if he isn't bad defensively it's Gretzky who leads this category and leads it by a country mile...
This was one of those times I guess that's it's hard to read point between the lines. My comment was a strongly sarcastic one that was meant to point out the other-side of 5518's obvious unsubstantiated bias.
That said, I do believe that this debate has certainly strengthened the argument against esga being a viable stat to use to prove a players' defensive prowness. |
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GOWINGS19
Rookie
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2007 : 21:41:32
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I'm telling you guys it dandenault haha
"I don’t need to score the goal. I need someone to start thinking about me and forgetting about scoring goals." -Vladmir Konstantinov |
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Topic |
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Who was the worst defensive player ever 
