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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
 Posted - 05/19/2007 : 05:18:35
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Poll Question:
There has been a lot of talk about the Hart and goalies lately, but after looking at the list of winners just now I started thinking that, even putting aside the goalie issue, maybe this award has often been given to the wrong person (moreover, I also wonder if they got the nominees wrong in a lot of years).
So the question is this: Generally speaking, looking back over history at the nominees and the winners, do you think that the results show that this award has been misunderstood or understood? I'm also curious what years you may think they got it totally wrong, and why?
Here's a list of winners - I have been trying to find a list of nominees too but so far, no luck! Pucknuts, help please!!!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hart_Memorial_Trophy
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2007 : 08:16:39
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I admit that the list is awfully impressive though!
But that is actually part and parcel of the question. You can, I think, under the definition of this award, have situations where you have Player A being by far the best player in the league that year and Player B being maybe, or even definitely, not as great a player as Player A, but when you look at Player B's team, and his relative value to it, he is perhaps more worthy of this award
One example - Marcel Dionne! I love Lafleur and Trottier, and respect what Gretzky did in say 79-80 and 80-81, but, take Dionne off the Kings of the late '70s, early '80s, and they may go from an average team to maybe one of the worst teams in the league. It's tricky I admit, cause, even considering the powerhouse Hab dynasty team, it's difficult not to give it to Lafleur in his vintage years.
Also - on the goalie point - Patrick Roy never won a Hart. That's interesting considering the two Montreal cup winning teams he was on were far from favorites at the beginning of those years. If an underdog team wins the Cup, was the goalie not incredibly valuable? Maybe the answer is that he was particularly big in the playoffs and the Hart vote is for the regular season? If so, another goalie who never won was Bernie Parent. Look at his regular season numbers in Philly's Cup-winning years - more importantly, watch some of his goaltending if you can on old clips - he was pretty awesome those years.
As I say, this is a tricky question - I am sort of rethinking my opinion on it a bit, but I go back and forth. |
Edited by - andyhack on 05/19/2007 09:32:04 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2007 : 18:53:40
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| Most times a team wouldn't be anywhere without a goaltender. I truly think that the MVP should be given out to a goaltender because most times that goalie is actually keeping you in it to win, example Vancouver, they would be horrible without Luongo. Almost for every cup run they have a great goaltender leading them. MVP and Conn Smythe should be given to a goalie almost every time. Giving it to a player just isn't the same because most times he just puts the puck in the net or gave a lot of passes that would lead to goals. And yes you need to win games by goals but keeping the puck out of your own net is even more important. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 08:27:28
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I had to scan this from a book, I could not find any information on all the Nominations over the years...
HART MEMORIAL TROPHY
Year _ Winner _________________ Runner-up
2006 _ Joe Thornton, Bos., S.J. ___ Jaromir Jagr, NYR
2005 _ Lockout ______________ Lockout
2004 _ Martin St. Louis, T.B. ___ Jarome Iginla, Cgy.
2003 _ Peter Forsberg, Col. ___ Markus Naslund, Van.
2002 _ Jose Theodore, Mtl. ___ Jarome Iginla, Cgy
2001 _ Joe Sakic, Col. ___ Mario Lemieux, Pit.
2000 _ Chris Pronger, St.L. ___ Jaromir Jar, Pit.
1999 _ Jaromir Jagr, Pit. ___ Alexei Yashin, Ott.
1998 _ Dominik Hasek, Buf. ___ Jaromir Jagr, Pit.
1997 _ Dominik Hasek, Buf. ___ Paul Kariya, Ana.
1996 _ Mario Lemieux, Pit. ___ Mark Messier, NYR
1995 _ Eric Lindros, Phi. ___ Jaromir Jagr, Pit.
1994 _ Sergei Fedorov, Det. ___ Dominik Hasek, Buf.
1993 _ Mario Lemieux, Pit. ___ Doug Gilmour, Tor.
1992 _ Mark Messier, NYR. ___ Patrick Roy, Mtl.
1991 _ Brett Hull, Stl. ___ Wayne Gretzky, L.A.
1990 _ Mark Meser, Edm. ___ Raymond Bourque, Bos.
1989 _ Wayne Gretzky, L.A. ___ Mario Lemieux, Pit.
1988 _ Mario Lemieux, Pit. ___ Grant Fuhr, Edm.
1987 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Raymond Bourque, Bos.
1986 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Mario Lemieux, Pit.
1985 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Dale Hawerchuk, Wpg.
1984 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Rod Langway, Wsh.
1983 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Pete Peeters, Bos.
1982 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Bryan Trottier, NYI.
1981 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Mike Liut, Stl.
1980 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Marcel Dionne, L.A.
1979 _ Bryan Trottier, NYI. ___ Guy Lafleur, Mtl
1978 _ Guy Lafleur, Mtl. ___ Bryan Trottier, NYI
1977 _ Guy Lafleur, Mtl. ___ Bobby Clarke, Phi.
1976 _ Bobby Clarke, Phi. ___ Denis Potvin, NYI.
1975 _ Bobby Clarke, Phi. ___ Rogie Vachon, L.A.
1974 _ Phil Esposito, Bos. ___ Bernie Parent, Phi.
1973 _ Bobby Clarke, Phi. ___ Phil Esposito, Bos.
1972 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Ken Dryden, Mtl.
1971 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Phil Esposito, Bos.
1970 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Tony Esposito, Chi.
1969 _ Phil Esposito, Bos. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1968 _ Stan Mikita, Chi. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1967 _ Stan Mikita, Chi. ___ Ed Giacomin, NYR
1966 _ Bobby Hull, Chi. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1965 _ Bobby Hull, Chi. ___ Norm Ullman, Det.
1964 _ Jean Beliveau, Mtl. ___ Bobby Hull, Chi.
1963 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Stan Mikita, Chi.
1962 _ Jacques Plante, Mtl. ___ Doug Harvey, NYR
1961 _ Bernie Geoffrion, Mtl. ___ Johnny Bower, Tor.
1960 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Bobby Hull, Chi.
1959 _ Andy Bathgate, NYR ___ Gordie Howe, Det.
1958 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Andy Bathgate, NYR
1957 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1956 _ Jean Beliveau, Mtl. ___ Tod Sloan, Tor.
1955 _ Ted Kennedy Tor. ___ Harry Lumley, Tor.
1954 _ AI Rollins, Chi. ___ Red Kelly, Det.
1953 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ AI Rollins, Chi.
1952 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Elmer Lach, Mtl.
1951 _ Milt Schmidt, Bos. ___ Maurice Richard, Mtl.
1950 _ Chuck Rayner, NYR ___ Ted Kennedy, Tor.
1949 _ Sid Abel, Det. ___ Bill Durnan, Mtl.
1948 _ Buddy O'Connor, NYR ___ Frank Brimsek, Bos.
1947 _ Maurice Richard, Mtl. ___ Milt Schmidt, Bos.
1946 _ Max Bentley, Chi. ___ Gaye Stewart, Tor.
1945 _ Elmer Lach, Mtl. ___ Maurice Richard, Mtl.
1944 _ Babe Pratt, Tor. ___ Bill Cowley, Bos.
1943 _ Bill Cowley, Bos. ___ Doug Bentley, Chi.
1942 _ Tom Anderson, Bro. ___ Syl Apps, Tor.
1941 _ Bill Cowley, Bos. ___ Dit Clapper, Bos.
1940 _ Ebbie Goodfellow, Det. ___ Syl Apps, Tor.
1939 _ Toe Blake, Mtl. ___ Syl Apps, Tor.
1938 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Paul Thompson, Chi.
1937 _ Babe Siebert, Mtl. ___ Lionel Conacher, Mtl.M
1936 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Hooley Smith, Mtl.M
1935 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Charlie Conacher, Tor.
1934 _ Aurel Joliat. Mtl. ___ Lionel Conacher, Chi.
1933 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Bill Cook, NYR
1932 _ Howie Morenz. Mtl. ___ Ching Johnson, NYR
1931 _ Howie Morenz, Mtl. ___ Eddie Shore, Bos.
1930 _ Nels Stewart, Mtl.M. ___ Lionel Hitchman, Bos.
1929 _ Roy Worters, NYA. ___ Ace Bailey, Tor.
1928 _ Howie Morenz, Mtl. ___ R Worters, Pit.
1927 _ Herb Gardiner, Mtl. ___ Bill Cook, NYR
1926 _ Nels Stewart, Mtl.M. ___ Sprague Cleghorn, Bos.
1925 _ Billy Burch, Ham. ___ Howe Morenz, Mtl.
1924 _ Frank Nighbor, Ott. ___ Sprague Cleghorn, Mtl.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way... |
Edited by - PuckNuts on 05/20/2007 08:30:19 |
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Guest7034
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Posted - 05/20/2007 : 11:50:21
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
I had to scan this from a book, I could not find any information on all the Nominations over the years...
HART MEMORIAL TROPHY
Year _ Winner _________________ Runner-up
2006 _ Joe Thornton, Bos., S.J. ___ Jaromir Jagr, NYR
2005 _ Lockout ______________ Lockout
2004 _ Martin St. Louis, T.B. ___ Jarome Iginla, Cgy.
2003 _ Peter Forsberg, Col. ___ Markus Naslund, Van.
2002 _ Jose Theodore, Mtl. ___ Jarome Iginla, Cgy
2001 _ Joe Sakic, Col. ___ Mario Lemieux, Pit.
2000 _ Chris Pronger, St.L. ___ Jaromir Jar, Pit.
1999 _ Jaromir Jagr, Pit. ___ Alexei Yashin, Ott.
1998 _ Dominik Hasek, Buf. ___ Jaromir Jagr, Pit.
1997 _ Dominik Hasek, Buf. ___ Paul Kariya, Ana.
1996 _ Mario Lemieux, Pit. ___ Mark Messier, NYR
1995 _ Eric Lindros, Phi. ___ Jaromir Jagr, Pit.
1994 _ Sergei Fedorov, Det. ___ Dominik Hasek, Buf.
1993 _ Mario Lemieux, Pit. ___ Doug Gilmour, Tor.
1992 _ Mark Messier, NYR. ___ Patrick Roy, Mtl.
1991 _ Brett Hull, Stl. ___ Wayne Gretzky, L.A.
1990 _ Mark Meser, Edm. ___ Raymond Bourque, Bos.
1989 _ Wayne Gretzky, L.A. ___ Mario Lemieux, Pit.
1988 _ Mario Lemieux, Pit. ___ Grant Fuhr, Edm.
1987 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Raymond Bourque, Bos.
1986 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Mario Lemieux, Pit.
1985 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Dale Hawerchuk, Wpg.
1984 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Rod Langway, Wsh.
1983 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Pete Peeters, Bos.
1982 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Bryan Trottier, NYI.
1981 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Mike Liut, Stl.
1980 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Marcel Dionne, L.A.
1979 _ Bryan Trottier, NYI. ___ Guy Lafleur, Mtl
1978 _ Guy Lafleur, Mtl. ___ Bryan Trottier, NYI
1977 _ Guy Lafleur, Mtl. ___ Bobby Clarke, Phi.
1976 _ Bobby Clarke, Phi. ___ Denis Potvin, NYI.
1975 _ Bobby Clarke, Phi. ___ Rogie Vachon, L.A.
1974 _ Phil Esposito, Bos. ___ Bernie Parent, Phi.
1973 _ Bobby Clarke, Phi. ___ Phil Esposito, Bos.
1972 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Ken Dryden, Mtl.
1971 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Phil Esposito, Bos.
1970 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Tony Esposito, Chi.
1969 _ Phil Esposito, Bos. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1968 _ Stan Mikita, Chi. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1967 _ Stan Mikita, Chi. ___ Ed Giacomin, NYR
1966 _ Bobby Hull, Chi. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1965 _ Bobby Hull, Chi. ___ Norm Ullman, Det.
1964 _ Jean Beliveau, Mtl. ___ Bobby Hull, Chi.
1963 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Stan Mikita, Chi.
1962 _ Jacques Plante, Mtl. ___ Doug Harvey, NYR
1961 _ Bernie Geoffrion, Mtl. ___ Johnny Bower, Tor.
1960 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Bobby Hull, Chi.
1959 _ Andy Bathgate, NYR ___ Gordie Howe, Det.
1958 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Andy Bathgate, NYR
1957 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Jean Beliveau, Mtl.
1956 _ Jean Beliveau, Mtl. ___ Tod Sloan, Tor.
1955 _ Ted Kennedy Tor. ___ Harry Lumley, Tor.
1954 _ AI Rollins, Chi. ___ Red Kelly, Det.
1953 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ AI Rollins, Chi.
1952 _ Gordie Howe, Det. ___ Elmer Lach, Mtl.
1951 _ Milt Schmidt, Bos. ___ Maurice Richard, Mtl.
1950 _ Chuck Rayner, NYR ___ Ted Kennedy, Tor.
1949 _ Sid Abel, Det. ___ Bill Durnan, Mtl.
1948 _ Buddy O'Connor, NYR ___ Frank Brimsek, Bos.
1947 _ Maurice Richard, Mtl. ___ Milt Schmidt, Bos.
1946 _ Max Bentley, Chi. ___ Gaye Stewart, Tor.
1945 _ Elmer Lach, Mtl. ___ Maurice Richard, Mtl.
1944 _ Babe Pratt, Tor. ___ Bill Cowley, Bos.
1943 _ Bill Cowley, Bos. ___ Doug Bentley, Chi.
1942 _ Tom Anderson, Bro. ___ Syl Apps, Tor.
1941 _ Bill Cowley, Bos. ___ Dit Clapper, Bos.
1940 _ Ebbie Goodfellow, Det. ___ Syl Apps, Tor.
1939 _ Toe Blake, Mtl. ___ Syl Apps, Tor.
1938 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Paul Thompson, Chi.
1937 _ Babe Siebert, Mtl. ___ Lionel Conacher, Mtl.M
1936 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Hooley Smith, Mtl.M
1935 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Charlie Conacher, Tor.
1934 _ Aurel Joliat. Mtl. ___ Lionel Conacher, Chi.
1933 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Bill Cook, NYR
1932 _ Howie Morenz. Mtl. ___ Ching Johnson, NYR
1931 _ Howie Morenz, Mtl. ___ Eddie Shore, Bos.
1930 _ Nels Stewart, Mtl.M. ___ Lionel Hitchman, Bos.
1929 _ Roy Worters, NYA. ___ Ace Bailey, Tor.
1928 _ Howie Morenz, Mtl. ___ R Worters, Pit.
1927 _ Herb Gardiner, Mtl. ___ Bill Cook, NYR
1926 _ Nels Stewart, Mtl.M. ___ Sprague Cleghorn, Bos.
1925 _ Billy Burch, Ham. ___ Howe Morenz, Mtl.
1924 _ Frank Nighbor, Ott. ___ Sprague Cleghorn, Mtl.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...
the fact that the Oilers won the Cup the year after their 9 time Hart Winner left means no one has a clue about this trophy. |
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Guest9995
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Posted - 05/20/2007 : 15:43:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7034
the fact that the Oilers won the Cup the year after their 9 time Hart Winner left means no one has a clue about this trophy.
The fact that the Hart trophy has nothing to do with playoff victories or Stanley Cups (it's a regular season award) means you may have to re-evaluate your statement.
As for Gretzky's importance to the Oilers winning Stanley Cups, you do know what happened the year Gretzky was traded to LA, right? LA, who had finished 4th worst in the NHL prior to the arrival of Gretzky, beat the 4 time champions, Edmonton Oilers, in 7 games. So what exactly happened there? They took Gretzky off a dynasty team, and the very same year, he beats his old dynasty team playing for a team that was one of the worst teams in the NHL prior to arriving there. What more do you want than that?! That should tell you everything you need to know.
What happend next? The Oilers had to regroup and figure out just how to take the rest of the core group and win without Wayne. It took them two years to figure it out, even though they had a few hall of famers to work with...pretty much everyone important from the 1988 Oilers except for Gretzky.
Moreover, if you had taken Mark Messier off the 1990 winner and replaced him with Gretzky, they would likely have won just as easily (incidentally, the same year Messier won the Hart). One player never makes a team, though they certainly can be the most valuable to their team, hence the award.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 18:44:49
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Here's my problem with the Hart trophy. Too often historically it is weighted in favour of the Art Ross winner. Maybe Pucknuts would be willing to workout the number of times this happened.
I know you wanted specific examples Andy, sorry. I have more of a general issue with how it's decided.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 19:35:36
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I believe it's pretty clear that it's either misunderstood and they should either reevaluate their selection process, or change the criteria for the award.
It's usually (incorrectly) weighted towards a popular/high scoring/high impact player and has nothing to do with them being the most valuable player for their team.
Unfortunately, I don't see anything changing here in the short-term... |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 19:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Here's my problem with the Hart trophy. Too often historically it is weighted in favour of the Art Ross winner.
Agree completely. I think you could even go 1 step further and you would see an even higher correlation between Hart winners and players who were at least competing for the Art Ross. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 19:42:02
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Here is what I found of the Hart and Art Ross connection:
The Hart and Art Ross have been given out the same year 58 times(1947-48 to 2005-06 not including 2004-05 strike year)
In that time, the Art Ross winner was also the Hart Winner 29 times. If you consider Gretzky in 79-80, who won the Hart and tied Dionne for the Art Ross(Dionne got the award for more goals) that means 30 of 58 or 51% of the time the Hart Trophy goes to the leagues leading scorer.
Another 20 times the Hart Winner was in the top 6 in scoring. So 50 of 58 times (86%) the Hart goes to a player fighting for the Art Ross.
That means, only 8 times has the award gone to a non-offensive player. 6 of those were goalies.
So Pronger and Ted Kennedy in 54-55 were the only two skaters to ever win the Hart being outside of the top 10 in scoring. And Kennedy may have been a top ten scorer, I just can't find the complete stats for that year.
You think the NHL favors offensive players for the Hart??
(I know this looks like crap, but here is the info)
Year Hart Winner Art Ross Winner Scoring Rank of Hart Winner
2005-06 - Joe Thornton - Joe Thornton - 1st
2003-04 - Martin St. Louis - Martin St. Louis - 1st
2002-03 - Peter Forsberg - Peter Forsberg - 1st
2001-02 - Jose Theodore - Jarome Iginla - N/A
2000-01 - Joe Sakic - Jaromir Jagr - 2nd
1999-00 - Chris Pronger - Jaromir Jagr - Out of Top 10
1998-99 - Jaromir Jagr - Jaromir Jagr - 1st
1997-98 - Dominik Hasek - Jaromir Jagr - N/A
1996-97 - Dominik Hasek - Mario Lemieux - N/A
1995-96 - Mario Lemieux - Mario Lemieux - 1st
1994-95 - Eric Lindros - Jaromir Jagr - 2nd
1993-94 - Sergei Fedorov - Wayne Gretzky - 2nd
1992-93 - Mario Lemieux - Mario Lemieux - 1st
1991-92 - Mark Messier - Mario Lemieux - 6th
1990-91 - Brett Hull - Wayne Gretzky - 2nd
1989-90 - Mark Messier - Wayne Gretzky - 2nd
1988-89 - Wayne Gretzky - Mario Lemieux - 2nd
1987-88 - Mario Lemieux - Mario Lemieux - 1st
1986-87 - Wayne Gretzky - Wayne Gretzky - 1st
1985-86 - Wayne Gretzky - Wayne Gretzky - 1st
1984-85 - Wayne Gretzky - Wayne Gretzky - 1st
1983-84 - Wayne Gretzky - Wayne Gretzky - 1st
1982-83 - Wayne Gretzky - Wayne Gretzky - 1st
1981-82 - Wayne Gretzky - Wayne Gretzky - 1st
1980-81 - Wayne Gretzky - Wayne Gretzky - 1st
1979-80 - Wayne Gretzky - Marcel Dionne - 1st (tie)
1978-79 - Bryan Trottier - Bryan Trottier - 1st
1977-78 - Guy Lafleur - Guy Lafleur - 1st
1976-77 - Guy Lafleur - Guy Lafleur - 1st
1975-76 - Bobby Clarke - Guy Lafleur - 2nd
1974-75 - Bobby Clarke - Bobby Orr - 6th
1973-74 - Phil Esposito - Phil Esposito - 1st
1972-73 - Bobby Clarke - Phil Esposito - 2nd
1971-72 - Bobby Orr - Phil Esposito - 2nd
1970-71 - Bobby Orr - Phil Esposito - 2nd
1969-70 - Bobby Orr - Bobby Orr - 1st
1968-69 - Phil Esposito - Phil Esposito - 1st
1967-68 - Stan Mikita - Stan Mikita - 1st
1966-67 - Stan Mikita - Stan Mikita - 1st
1965-66 - Bobby Hull - Bobby Hull - 1st
1964-65 - Bobby Hull - Stan Mikita - 4th
1963-64 - Jean Beliveau - Stan Mikita - 3rd
1962-63 - Gordie Howe - Gordie Howe - 1st
1961-62 - Jacques Plante - Bobby Hull - N/A
1960-61 - Bernie Geoffrion - Bernie Geoffrion - 1st
1959-60 - Gordie Howe - Bobby Hull - 6th
1958-59 - Andy Bathgate - d***ie Moore - 3rd
1957-58 - Gordie Howe - d***ie Moore - 4th
1956-57 - Gordie Howe - Gordie Howe - 1st
1955-56 - Jean Beliveau - Jean Beliveau - 1st
1954-55 - Ted Kennedy - Bernie Geoffrion - Out of top 10???
1953-54 - Al Rollins - Gordie Howe - N/A
1952-53 - Gordie Howe - Gordie Howe - 1st
1951-52 - Gordie Howe - Gordie Howe - 1st
1950-51 - Milt Schmidt - Gordie Howe - 5th
1949-50 - Chuck Rayner - Ted Lindsay - N/A
1948-49 - Sid Abel - Roy Conacher - 4th
1947-48 - Buddy O'Connor - Elmer Lach - 2nd
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
Edited by - Beans15 on 05/20/2007 19:43:53 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 20:28:44
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Thanks for the list Pucknuts (a.k.a. The King of Stats)!
Here's one thing that makes me question this award a bit. Since Bobby Orr, only one defenceman has won in the last 30 plus years - Chris Pronger in 2000. Moreover, since 1930, YES 1930, the years where a defenceman either won or was runner-up are as follows:
2000 _ Chris Pronger, St.L. ___ Jaromir Jar, Pit.
1990 _ Mark Messier, Edm. ___ Raymond Bourque, Bos.
1987 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Raymond Bourque, Bos.
1984 _ Wayne Gretzky, Edm. ___ Rod Langway, Wsh.
1976 _ Bobby Clarke, Phi. ___ Denis Potvin, NYI.
1972 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Ken Dryden, Mtl.
1971 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Phil Esposito, Bos.
1970 _ Bobby Orr, Bos. ___ Tony Esposito, Chi.
1962 _ Jacques Plante, Mtl. ___ Doug Harvey, NYR
1954 _ AI Rollins, Chi. ___ Red Kelly, Det.
1944 _ Babe Pratt, Tor. ___ Bill Cowley, Bos.
1940 _ Ebbie Goodfellow, Det. ___ Syl Apps, Tor.
1938 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Paul Thompson, Chi.
1936 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Hooley Smith, Mtl.M
1935 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Charlie Conacher, Tor.
1933 _ Eddie Shore, Bos. ___ Bill Cook, NYR
1932 _ Howie Morenz. Mtl. ___ Ching Johnson, NYR
1931 _ Howie Morenz, Mtl. ___ Eddie Shore, Bos.
Considering the importance of a defenceman, the above just seems weird to me. |
Edited by - andyhack on 05/20/2007 20:39:30 |
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Guest9995
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Posted - 05/20/2007 : 20:30:21
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| Interesting... Wayne Gretzky won the scoring title 3 times in the 1990s without winning the Hart trophy. Almost like they were trying to even it out for all the Harts he won in the 1980s. Either that or the voters got so used to him winning the scoring title by 60 or 80 points that when they saw him winning by only 10 to 30, it was like he was having a bad year. Amazing that a 163 point season in 1991 (over 30 points more than what Brett Hull had in 1991) was considered non Hart worthy! Just goes to show what the previous astronomical numbers can do to the human psyche. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 20:43:30
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Guest 9995 - Actually, looking at the way this award is defined, Wayne may very well have been more deserving in some of the years that he didn't win compared to some of the years where he won. I don't think that was your point, but in that way, I do agree with you.
Edit - Anyway, as the defenceman post above points out, my doubts about this award are broader than just Wayne's Harts in the '80s. If there is a problem with this award, it goes a LONG way back historically.
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Edited by - andyhack on 05/20/2007 20:49:23 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 20:50:30
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This thing in the 90's may be true.
One amazing this about the 80's and 90's. Between 1980-81 and 2000-01. 21 years, there were only three players who won the Art Ross. Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr. In those 21 years, one of those three players won the Hart Trophy 13 times. 10 times in the 80's and only 3 in the 90's. 1990 to present, 6 of 15 Harts went to the Art Ross winnner as well.
Maybe the league is trying to tear the Hart out of the Art Ross!
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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Guest0956
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Posted - 05/20/2007 : 20:59:14
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I can see your point, though I must say that the voters seemed to enforce the actual definition of the award once Gretzky became an LA King. Previous to LA, they would always give the Hart to the leading scorer (Gretzky tied for the lead in his first NHL season, despite not winning the Art Ross due to having less goals than Dionne).
Now, here comes 1989... Gretzky wins the Hart trophy despite losing the scoring title to Mario Lemieux by about 30 points (sound familiar?). This first time it was justified, though. Gretzky turned the 4th worst team in the NHL into the 4th best team pretty much overnight. That's what the biggest trade in history will do for a team, it turns out. And according the the definition of the award, Gretzky's impact was much larger than was Lemieux's on a Pens team that didn't even make the playoffs. But there was a backlash of sorts against this win -- Lemieux himself even was quoted as saying, "Nothing in this league makes sense. In the past the Hart would always go to the top scorer, the best player," and people starting questioning Wayne's win.
Along comes 3 more scoring titles for Wayne, none of which offer his 10th, 11th or 12th Hart trophies. Once again, a 30 point differential over Brett Hull in 1991. This time it's Wayne Gretzky who doesn't get the nod. Is it justified this time like it was in 1989? Hull only had 45 assists! They gave the award to a pure sniper, nothing else. And the Kings finished, what, 1st in the Western Conference that year? 2nd or 3rd overall? That should have been his 10th Hart Trophy. 1993, I can understand, though. The Kings didn't make the playoffs.
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Guest0956
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Posted - 05/20/2007 : 21:01:55
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| ^ ^ My post was for Andyhack by the way! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 21:10:35
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I totally agree that Gretzky could have won the award in 90-91, but let's not discredit Hull. Take him off of the Blues and that team was nothing. Oates would not have that sniper to pass to and not had 90 assists. They more than likely do not finish 2nd in the league. And the Pearson also went to Hull that year. Gretzky did finish 2nd. You kind of have to recognize the 2nd most goals scored in a single season.
Gretzky could have won it, but I don't think it was that big of an injustice.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2007 : 21:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9995
Interesting... Wayne Gretzky won the scoring title 3 times in the 1990s without winning the Hart trophy. Almost like they were trying to even it out for all the Harts he won in the 1980s. Either that or the voters got so used to him winning the scoring title by 60 or 80 points that when they saw him winning by only 10 to 30, it was like he was having a bad year. Amazing that a 163 point season in 1991 (over 30 points more than what Brett Hull had in 1991) was considered non Hart worthy! Just goes to show what the previous astronomical numbers can do to the human psyche.
'91 was the year that Hull scored 86 goals - now as much of a non-fan I am of him, I feel like that year was one where they did a better job of Hart voting. Without him St.Louis wasn't a very good team. It was the Hull & Oates show with Stevens on defense and CuJo in net. After that a lot of defensive-minded players (Cavalini bros., early career Brind'Amour, Meagher,Lowry, Sutter) So wasn't Hull MVP that year ? The Blues finished one point behind Chicago for the President's Trophy. Who was Chicago's top performers? Larmer/Roenick/Goulet were the top point-getters. But that doesn't mean everything. Their goalie that year? With 74 games played (43-19-7) Ed Belfour of course ! Isn't THAT an MVP season ? "the player adjudged to be the most valuable to his team".
The Professional Hockey Writers' Association votes on this at the end of the regular season. I feel that this is the most mis-awarded of the trophies. It would likely be even more mishandled if the vote were made after the playoffs. That would likely change some votes every year. Even still - there was a long strech of years where it was speculated that it simply goes to the leagues' best player. That's acceptable except that there is already an award for that - the Pearson. Another widely mis-understood award. That one goes to the "outstanding" player and is selected by the members of the NHLPA (i.e. the players in the NHL) THIS is the award that should be coveted the most every year ! It, supposedly, goes to the BEST player in the league as chosen by those whose opinion matters most : their peers.
Interestingly enough if you look prior to 1971 (the first awarding of the Pearson) it appears that Hart voting wasn't much different until you get to the '50's and '40's. Those were the first 2 decades of the award and perhaps voting stuck to the original intentions. Time, it appears, has changed the motivations of the voters. Also, it appears that even after 30+ years the Hart still goes to the league's best player or a top 5 scorer, and the Pearson is still a "fringe" award. Another oddity : the winner of the Pearson gets twice as much money ($20k to $10k) as the Hart winner. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2007 : 08:02:45
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Unfortunately the Hart, and many other awards are voted on by the "Professional Hockey Writers Association", some of them I have no problem, but the Harts should be voted on by the players, as they are the ones who know who they could not have been as good a team without...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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The Hart - Misunderstood or Understood 
