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Shepsky
Rookie
Canada
211 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2012 : 18:48:24
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Poll Question:
nhl.com has listed 6 teams in the running for Rick Nash, which one do you think he'll end up on, and what do you think Columbus will get back?
Every day is a great day for hockey
-Mario Lemieux
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@valanche
Rookie
Canada
240 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2012 : 19:56:24
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Rangers give up:
- McDonagh or del zotta
- Brandon dubinsky
- hagelin or first round pick
66 is > than 99 |
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 05:42:27
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no question that he'd look good playing along side Crosby in Pitt. i'm sure Ray Shero has enquired about him more then a few times.
but i also think he'd fit well in Philly. why not do Nash for Hartnell, Voracek, and either a solid prospect or mid to high round pick? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 06:07:39
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The real question is, which team is the most willing to give up anything close to the exorbitant demands of the Columbus GM?
My guess is NY Rangers. Even getting Del Zotto and Dubinsky and a decent prospect . . . it's a very nice return, frankly. And they might be willing to give up even more than that, which is crazy, but that's what it's come to.
If I was the Columbus GM, I'd be all over the offer from the Rangers . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 09:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by @valanche
Rangers give up:
- McDonagh or del zotta
- Brandon dubinsky
- hagelin or first round pick
66 is > than 99
This is what CJB originally asked for at the trade deadline and Sather told them to go fly a kite. This is a gross deal for NYR and would basically sell the future for limited return.
Much like the Luongo situation (although CJB is far more greedy) these GM's somehow thing other GM's are idiots and are willing to sell them the goose for one lonely golden egg.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 09:57:45
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I agree. I think both Howson and Gillis are doing what they can to max out a return for their player and are hoping a team will become desperate for some reason and pay the ransom! Howson originally (at the deadline) was looking for a team desperate for that final piece for a cup run and didn't get his asking price. I believe he then hoped that those who lost out on Parise would pony up the high asking price and go for Nash. When Ryan became available, the rumour was that Nash's value dropped somewhat, but now i think Howson's waiting on Ryan moving so that those who miss out will panic and jump on Nash as the season approaches!
Gillis is in a bit more of a bind with Luongo, mostly because of the limited number of teams Lu wants to waive his NTC for at the current time. If a deal can't be worked out with Fla, AND Luongo agrees to go elsewhere, Gillis prob thinks a team like the Leafs will be willing to overpay? Personally i think Burke is too stubborn being that it's Vancouver and won't drastically overpay. Gillis may end up with a slight overpay but that in the end will be arguable as to the value of the return.
As far as Gillis is concerned though, i can't see him having Luongo on the roster come Sept. Look for something to get done soon.
Anyone hear the rumour of him and the Panthers owner having dinner the other night in Vegas?
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/328220 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 10:08:50
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I have no doubt in my mind that FLA would welcome Luongo with open arms. The issue is getting Gillis to be reasonable. Face up to the facts, he's dumping Luongo. Know you will not get overpaid for that.
As far as Nash goes, I think Howsen is holding a water gun to the heads of the GM's. C'mon! $7.8 million for the next 37 seasons for 30 goals a year on the decline. Again, face up to the facts.
Why can't GM's be as smart as us????
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 11:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I have no doubt in my mind that FLA would welcome Luongo with open arms. The issue is getting Gillis to be reasonable. Face up to the facts, he's dumping Luongo. Know you will not get overpaid for that.
As far as Nash goes, I think Howsen is holding a water gun to the heads of the GM's. C'mon! $7.8 million for the next 37 seasons for 30 goals a year on the decline. Again, face up to the facts.
Why can't GM's be as smart as us????
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
In fairness to Gillis, no one knows what FLA is offering back for Luongo - FLA claims that Gillis is asking too much, but FLA may be offering nothing, so who knows if Gillis is really "overasking". When the dust settles I'm sure we'll hear more.
I think NYR would be crazy to make a trade for Nash if that is the asking price. That being said, Howson is in a much worse spot than Gillis - while VAN has a replacement all ready for Luongo, Howson has no such replacement for Nash - he really needs to get something in return.
Both GM's will have to come down on asking price as we approach September. I don't think either player will be with their current teams at that time, and a deal will have been settled. |
Edited by - nuxfan on 07/12/2012 11:10:24 |
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 12:51:31
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i can understand why NYR is on Nash's list, as they're a cup contender. but i wonder if he'll mesh well with Tort's system, which focuses on the defensive side.......especially in the playoffs.
doesn't really suit Nash's style, does it? |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 15:38:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I have no doubt in my mind that FLA would welcome Luongo with open arms. The issue is getting Gillis to be reasonable. Face up to the facts, he's dumping Luongo. Know you will not get overpaid for that.
As far as Nash goes, I think Howsen is holding a water gun to the heads of the GM's. C'mon! $7.8 million for the next 37 seasons for 30 goals a year on the decline. Again, face up to the facts.
Why can't GM's be as smart as us????
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Decline? you mean player hitting his prime right? he's what 28? his stats may have decline but come on beans he's played for CBJ's, i know you don't think so beans But IMO Nash is an Elite Talent who hasn't gotten the exposure he should because he has played in Columbus if Parise can get that kind of money he has, Nash deffinetly deserves 7.8 million,
i mean Parise is 27 going to be 28 Nash is 28
Nash has 547pts in 674 games playing on a very weak columbus team for his entire career.
Parise has 410 points in 502 games playing for the New Jersey Devils,
both play a solid 2 way game I don't see how you can argue Nash is not a top 15 winger in the NHL and isn't worht quite a bit in a trade,
granted yes if i were the rangers that would be obsurd,
what i feel is fair value for Nash would be,
a potentially late first round pick with a solid defensive forward or shut down D at a decent age, and a late blooming prospect with some potential and upside still to be seen...
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Guest2669
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Posted - 07/12/2012 : 15:49:12
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To Boston: Nash
To Columbus : Thomas, Krecji, Knight and two first round picks. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 16:14:37
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No Pasty I got it right. I would say that going from 67 pts, to 66 pts, to 59 pts and from 33, to 32, to 30 goals is decline is it not?? It's not like he was playing on a different team with players that were significantly worse than any other time in his career. Or did I miss something??
Let's look at this objectively for a second:
Rick Nash has:
Only 2-40 goal seasons in his entire career. That includes 9 NHL seasons and 2 seasons in the OHL.
One of those 2 seasons was a Richard winner (tied with 2 other players) and was the lowest winning total since the inception of the award.
Rick Nash is a career minus player, including a few seasons of being one of the worst in the NHL. He was also a minus player in the OHL. Not saying the +/- stat is a great measure, however few minus players are considered playing a 'solid 2 way game.'
Rick Nash is a nearly $8 million cap hit for another 6 seasons.
Let's face facts, Nash has not produced at an elite level for a long time. Actually, he has produced at a less than elite level for most of his career. He has been closer to a 60 pt player than an 80 pt player. I get that he has played on a bad hockey team for a long time but so have other players who I would consider elite who were able to produce at an elite level on bad teams. Not a chance in h-e-double hockey sticks in Nash a top 15 foward in the NHL. I can name 20-25 off the top of my head that I would put ahead of Nash.
On the flip side, Nash is a legit power forward who is likely a top 30-40 forward in the NHL. He is huge and skates well and you can't teach that. He is super durable missing more than 6 games in a season only once. He also doesn't take many penalties.
Nash would be a 1st line player on most teams in the NHL but he is NOT a top 15 forward in the NHL, not a cornerstone of a franchise but a fantastic supporting piece, and is overpaid by nearly $2 million a season for the next 6 years.
Add all that up and he is not worth anywhere near what Howsen is asking for. He is worth something and a valuable something, but not selling the farm valuable. Nash belongs in a group with Neal, Parise, Ryan, Marleau, Heatley, et al. They should all be $5-$6 million players. The younger guys are worth a bit more because of age so perhaps over $6 million but not $7 million let alone $8 million.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 19:31:28
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Beans, we ve been at this before (btw i said top 15 winger not forward) And i really just think Nash brings a whole lot to the table then his stats, I would take Nash easily before every player you named as his comparables, but that is me and my opinion, and i know it is not yours and i respect that, The way i have seen Nash perform internationaly where on every World championship team and on the Canadian Olympic team he has always easily been one of our countries top players, in Vancouver besides Toews Nash was our best player, and this isn't just my opinion that was the Opinion of many hockey analyst. That is why i feel Nash is elite despite the stats, because everytime he has been surrounded with the best he has looked as good if not better than all of them.
lets take a look for fun at how many players under 30 have 500 points or more in the NHL.
Crosby, Malkin, Ovetchkin, Spezza, Kovalchuk , Gaborik (30) , E. Staal , Nash, Thats all i could find their may be a few more but with a quick look thats it, and that is pretty elite company if you ask me,
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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@valanche
Rookie
Canada
240 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2012 : 19:36:08
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I'm just wondering what's taking so long. It was supposed to be once parise and Suter signed the rest of the dominos would fall. I'm sure each team has its offer on the table and by this time no one will be making any last second changes. Howson needs to end this drama and take the best package offered. The only reason I can think of why this continues to drag on is that some of the teams in on Nash (San Jose, Boston, New York) are also interested in guys like Doan and bobby Ryan so if they miss out Howson thinks the price of Nash goes up.
66 is > than 99 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 07:55:04
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Hmm. It's interesting how people see things differently sometimes. Although I agree that Toews was the best player for Canada at the Vancouver Olympics I would strongly disagree that Nash was right after him. I recall both Iginla and Crosby were magic together, 4 game winning goals between them speak for themselves. I also recall Dany Heatley playing the most inspired hockey he has in the past few seasons and was a complete beast. I also recall Drew Doughty being fantastic.
I apologize for my assumption you said top 15 foward, but I would still not put him in the top 15 winger catagory. I get that he brings more to the table than offense, but it really isn't defense. Granted I have not watched a pile of him but what I have seen of him, he floats more than what I would like to see.
When looking at players in his own position one could pretty easily put Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Neal, Eriksson, Zetterberg, Lucic, Heatley, Brown and Vanek ahead of or at least on par with Nash. That doesn't include the up and coming left wingers like Hall, Benn, E. Kane, and Landeskog. Looking at RW, Giroux, Hossa, Gaborik, St Louis, P. Kane, Pominville, Sharp, Wheeler, Perry, Williams, Erat, Ryan, and Semin are all ahead or comparable. You also have some older wingers that are will relevant like Jagr, Whitney, Doan,Iginla, and Selanne, .
So there is a list of 30 wingers that I would put either ahead of or on par with Nash. There is no way even the biggest Nash fan can put him in the top 5 of that list.
He gets paid like he's top 5 and will for the next 6 seasons. That makes just about any trade for him a garbage trade. Hence no one wanting to overpay in a trade for him.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 08:21:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
Beans, we ve been at this before (btw i said top 15 winger not forward) And i really just think Nash brings a whole lot to the table then his stats, I would take Nash easily before every player you named as his comparables, but that is me and my opinion, and i know it is not yours and i respect that, The way i have seen Nash perform internationaly where on every World championship team and on the Canadian Olympic team he has always easily been one of our countries top players, in Vancouver besides Toews Nash was our best player, and this isn't just my opinion that was the Opinion of many hockey analyst. That is why i feel Nash is elite despite the stats, because everytime he has been surrounded with the best he has looked as good if not better than all of them.
lets take a look for fun at how many players under 30 have 500 points or more in the NHL.
Crosby, Malkin, Ovetchkin, Spezza, Kovalchuk , Gaborik (30) , E. Staal , Nash, Thats all i could find their may be a few more but with a quick look thats it, and that is pretty elite company if you ask me,
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
I honestly think that Nash is overrated, especially defensively. Not a top 15 forward in the league, I agree with Beans. Off the top of MY head, I would take . . .
Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, Giroux, H. Sedin, D. Sedin, Spezza, St. Louis, Iginla, Gaborik, Kessel, Hossa, Kovalchuk, Tavares, Thornton, Ovechkin, Parise, E.Staal, Toews, Kopitar, Eberle, Nugent-Hopkins, Datsyuk, Marleau, Neal.
Ok, I cheated and filled in a few names I might have missed, but even after those . . . 25 players, Nash falls into a fairly big group of "compareable" players (Backes, Krejci, etc)
Over. Rated.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 08:49:46
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Wow! I guess it depends on the exact comparison really, but some of those names i wouldn't even consider in the same conversation as Nash! Let's face it, he's only played with high quality players at WC's and Olympics so it's hard to compare to some of the others. But, if you're talking about who i'd rather have for let's say the next 5 years, he'd be ahead of many of them! I'm not about to say he's a top 5 winger or top 15 forward or whatever the argument is, but give him to me ANY day over Erat, Neal, Lucic, Heatley, Brown, Vanek, St Louis, Pominville, Wheeler, Williams, Semin and obviously the old guys like Whitney, Doan, Jagr, etc (if we're talking the next 5 years).
Is Nash overpaid? Yup. But the guy is still an extremely talented forward and i really hope he ends up somewhere with some talent to compliment his! Imagine if he, and not Neal, were paired up with Malkin last year in Pittsburgh? If he's put up 40+ in the past playing with the guys he has, i can only imagine what he'd do with Malking and/or Crosby or a guy in that ilk. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 09:34:14
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Beans all that aside what about the fact that only 8 other players in his age group have put up as many points as he has since being in the league? and how many of those players have been better surrounded than Nash ,, all of them
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:12:00
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Nash is in the company of 8 players today? So what! Did you go back and look how many players are in the league today who also had 500+ points before the age of 30?? How about the players who are projected to do that??
And not everyone has been surrounded by talent. Gaborik is a perfect example. He had to drag Demitra and a pile of pilons around the ice and got 80 pts.
I agree completely with Slozo. Nash is a very over-rated hockey player. He is a legit power forward with 30-35 capabilities. Perhaps 40 on the outside. He is a floating defensive player and ONLY when he is playing with elite talent is he considered a good player.
Elite players make those around them better. Nash doesn't do that.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:19:03
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Backes ,,, Krecji how are these his comparables they are close to the same age and Nash has more than double the 30 goal season these two have produced and close to double their career point totals? does consistency mean nothing ?
30 goals in every NHL season he has played in except for his Rookie year (17) and a injury shortend season (75gp 27 goals) you know you his real comparable is Jarome Iginla, have a look,,
Iginla: 1188 gp 1073 pts 516 goals = .903 pts per game and .434 goals per game
Nash: 674 gp 547pts 289 goals = .812 pts per game and .429 goals per game
at this rate if Nash remains consistent as he has shown he has he will be a 500 goal scorer before his 35th b day, how many of these comparables will do that ?
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 10:25:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Nash is in the company of 8 players today? So what! Did you go back and look how many players are in the league today who also had 500+ points before the age of 30?? How about the players who are projected to do that??
And not everyone has been surrounded by talent. Gaborik is a perfect example. He had to drag Demitra and a pile of pilons around the ice and got 80 pts.
I agree completely with Slozo. Nash is a very over-rated hockey player. He is a legit power forward with 30-35 capabilities. Perhaps 40 on the outside. He is a floating defensive player and ONLY when he is playing with elite talent is he considered a good player.
Elite players make those around them better. Nash doesn't do that.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Beans this shows how many times you have watched Nash play Floating really ask Hitchcock how much Nash floats defensivly , what a joke,,, Nash ha played a 200 foot game since Hitchcock began coaching him, if he is such a floater how come in Vancouver he was put into a checking role where he dominted with Toews and Morrow or Richards ? seriously floating what a joke ?Nash has been everything to a nothing team for almost a decade,
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 11:52:41
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Well, that's is what I see. It's not a joke. When put into a checking role, he will check. I don't argue that. But Hitchcock But for a guy who is supposed to be so great 2-way, how can he be one of the worst +/- players in the league?? Why does he not kill penalties, ever???
Nash has strong takeaway number but I would suggest that is based far more on his intense forecheck than it is on his backcheck.
I think he is a very good hockey player but as Slozo said, over-rated. I think that he has answered the call for Canada on a number of WC and the media hypes him up so much that he appears better than what he is. If he was American or European and did not get the media that he does, people would consider him a Martin Erat or a Bobby Ryan. That is, a quality top 6 forward who can get 30-40 goals and 60-70 pts. Granted, I think Nash is step above a player like Erat, he is not substantially better and they belong in the came conversation.
Frankly, I don't expect you to change your opinion. You have displayed a very clear pro-Nash bias for a very long time. But just because I disagree, does not make my opinion a joke. I have not watched Nash as much as other players. But I can tell you that in the games I have watched of him (5 or 6 a year for the past number of years) he doesn't really know what his end of the ice looks like unless there is a defensive zone face off.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 12:03:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Well, that's is what I see. It's not a joke. When put into a checking role, he will check. I don't argue that. But Hitchcock But for a guy who is supposed to be so great 2-way, how can he be one of the worst +/- players in the league?? Why does he not kill penalties, ever???
Nash has strong takeaway number but I would suggest that is based far more on his intense forecheck than it is on his backcheck.
I think he is a very good hockey player but as Slozo said, over-rated. I think that he has answered the call for Canada on a number of WC and the media hypes him up so much that he appears better than what he is. If he was American or European and did not get the media that he does, people would consider him a Martin Erat or a Bobby Ryan. That is, a quality top 6 forward who can get 30-40 goals and 60-70 pts. Granted, I think Nash is step above a player like Erat, he is not substantially better and they belong in the came conversation.
Frankly, I don't expect you to change your opinion. You have displayed a very clear pro-Nash bias for a very long time. But just because I disagree, does not make my opinion a joke. I have not watched Nash as much as other players. But I can tell you that in the games I have watched of him (5 or 6 a year for the past number of years) he doesn't really know what his end of the ice looks like unless there is a defensive zone face off.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
how many players on the bluejackets were plus players last year Beans? and the year before? Thomas Plekanec is one of the better 2 way centers in the league was minus 15 last year why he played on a last place team,,,
I will ask this question again does consistency count for nothing? sure these players you keep bringing up as his comparables have had season compareable to Nash, but how many of them have done it every single year they have been in the league with the exception of their rookie year? Nash is Elite because on the worst team in the league he put up very good numbers year in year out every year. Nash getting 30 goals is a gurantee, give him a number 1 center and let's see how his stats go. And it looks like we will have a chance to see that this upcomig season
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Edited by - Pasty7 on 07/13/2012 12:08:27 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 12:51:03
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OK, Pasty. I get it. He will get 30 goals a year. Who cares?? That is not my point.
Maybe this will help:
Rick Nash is a very good hockey player. He will play on the 1st line on most teams and will do well. Not many players are as big and strong with that talent level.
HOWEVER
That does not make him a franchise player, he is NOT worth $8 million a season, and he is NOT anywhere near the value of the trade being proposed.
It's not about Nash being good or bad. My belief that he is over-rated is irrelevant. Bottom line is the trade value Howsen is asking for is for a top 10 PLAYER (not top 15 winger) in the NHL. The kind of player that will immediately make a pretender a contender and someone to build around.
Nash is a building block, not a foundation. The value is too much. That is the point I have been trying to make.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 16:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
OK, Pasty. I get it. He will get 30 goals a year. Who cares?? That is not my point.
Maybe this will help:
Rick Nash is a very good hockey player. He will play on the 1st line on most teams and will do well. Not many players are as big and strong with that talent level.
HOWEVER
That does not make him a franchise player, he is NOT worth $8 million a season, and he is NOT anywhere near the value of the trade being proposed.
It's not about Nash being good or bad. My belief that he is over-rated is irrelevant. Bottom line is the trade value Howsen is asking for is for a top 10 PLAYER (not top 15 winger) in the NHL. The kind of player that will immediately make a pretender a contender and someone to build around.
Nash is a building block, not a foundation. The value is too much. That is the point I have been trying to make.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Yeash i think a lot of GMs care about a player who will get you at least 30 goals every year. Maybe you don't and that's probably why you are a pickuphockey analyst and not a GM,
I mean seriously you do realize only 30 players scored 30 goals or more this season, so 1 per team, so you tell a GM that you've got a guy that has scored 30 or more in 7 of his 9 NHL season is big physical skates like the wind, has a tonne of take aways has always been a leader and takes very few penalty's is available and you think a GM reaction will be "who cares"?
the fact is roughly 30 players a year do what Rick Nash does every year, and even less of those players do it as consistently as Rick Nash, Nash will probably end his Career with over 500 goals something only 42 players have done before in what world is this guy over rated,
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 20:39:31
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Ok, so let's start with this 500 goal business. I mean all the respect in the word, but dude, c'mon. He's got 289 goals in 674 games. That means, if he doesn't slow down even a little bit through his 30's he will have to average 30 goals per seasons through the next 7 seasons. That's no injury and no slow down. I'm not saying it won't happen but i would say the odds are actually against him. I cant recall who posted it originally, but there is a history of goal scores significantly dropping production past the age of 30.
Now, to the 'elite' conversation. Take a read thought this. It's easily the fairest assessment of Nash I have ever read.
http://www.nesn.com/2012/07/rick-nash-not-the-elite-difference-maker-worthy-of-price-blue-jackets-are-demanding-in-trade-talks.html
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2012 : 21:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ok, so let's start with this 500 goal business. I mean all the respect in the word, but dude, c'mon. He's got 289 goals in 674 games. That means, if he doesn't slow down even a little bit through his 30's he will have to average 30 goals per seasons through the next 7 seasons. That's no injury and no slow down. I'm not saying it won't happen but i would say the odds are actually against him. I cant recall who posted it originally, but there is a history of goal scores significantly dropping production past the age of 30.
Now, to the 'elite' conversation. Take a read thought this. It's easily the fairest assessment of Nash I have ever read.
http://www.nesn.com/2012/07/rick-nash-not-the-elite-difference-maker-worthy-of-price-blue-jackets-are-demanding-in-trade-talks.html
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
hes avging pretty much the same goals per game as iginla, iginla has 516 and is only 35, all signs point to nash being a 500 goal man unless there is a dramatic change in his ever consistent performances , even if he avg 20 goals a year for the next 10 seasons and retires at 38 that would have him pretty close to 500 mark no?
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Edited by - Pasty7 on 07/13/2012 21:50:06 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 06:02:35
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Yepasty, you are right. Mathematically it can happen. And I get the whole playing in CBJ thing. But Iginla is an enigma. Recalling that report about goal scores after 30, Iginla was one of only two players who were able to maintain the pace thought their 30's.
What did you think of the article?
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 12:37:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Yepasty, you are right. Mathematically it can happen. And I get the whole playing in CBJ thing. But Iginla is an enigma. Recalling that report about goal scores after 30, Iginla was one of only two players who were able to maintain the pace thought their 30's.
What did you think of the article?
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
I agree with you on a lot of things, and the article is well written and I can respect the point of it. But i do not entirely agree, I may be wrong though obviously none of us can predict the futur. If I could i would spend a lot less time on these boards. If you go way back to my first or second post i wrote that I felt Howsen was asking too much for Nash, so on that we do agree.
I think I wrote that Nash is worth a Potentially late first rounder (For example the Rangers first rounder should not be a top 20 pick next season) a solid forward prospect like Chris Kreider (staying with the rangers) and maybe a through in bottom 9 forward or bottom 6 defender. Would you not agree that would be reasonable?
Rangers get:
R. Nash
CBJ get:
2013 1rst rounder from Rangers
Chris Kreider
and maybe say Steve Emminger
My biggest argument Beans as to why Nash is better than the players you have Named as his comparables and the reason I think you have undervalued him along with others is I think Nash can be the Iginla enigma as you put it.
He has shown great durability over his career on this we can agree no?
We can also agree that on a sub par team he has consitently put up a very respectable amount of goals.
I think we can both agree (staying with the Rangers) if Nash were playing with Gaborik and Richards on a line his numbers should rise. (i do understand the argument of the article that perhaps he was getting these goals because someone had to be scoring for CBJ but i think Nash has shown on the world stage this is untrue.)
I just really think Nash is more of an Iginla type Forward but time will tell sir,
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 14:11:24
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Fair enough Pasty. Neither of us can tell the future. I certainly agree that he is very durable and he could be that Iginla type enigma. I don't see it but he could be.
We both agree what Howsen is asking for is too much and your Ranger deal is about right.
Good debate. 
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2012 : 14:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
I think we can both agree (staying with the Rangers) if Nash were playing with Gaborik and Richards on a line his numbers should rise. (i do understand the argument of the article that perhaps he was getting these goals because someone had to be scoring for CBJ but i think Nash has shown on the world stage this is untrue.)
Nash-Richards-Gaborik - at nearly 22M in cap space, that might be the most expensive line in the NHL were it to happen. Which really points to the crux of the problem with Nash - he costs too much for too long, for what he brings to the table.
Fact is, he is a good player - and while you and Beans are arguing as to the extent of his goodness, there is no denying that he's good. 30-40 goals and 70-ish points per season every season on a crap team (I too believe he can get higher with another group). He's a wicked offensive threat when he's on and is a big physical presence with a huge reach that makes it hard to defend against. His defensive game is passable - his long stride and reach allow him to appear better than he is, but he's certainly not a defensive liability like OV or Kovy. So, very good all around player.
7.8M per season is a lot of cheddar to pay for a player. Players that make that sort of money are consistent game changers, leaders, and high regular producers, not just very good players. Beans said it best, Nash is not a foundation player, he's a building block. CBJ thought that he might be a foundation player and the cornerstone of their franchise when they signed him to that deal, but he has not taken that next step. He currently carries the 5th highest cap hit in the entire NHL (OV, Crosby, Malkin, and Eric Staal are all higher), and in that company of game changers, leaders, and high regular producers, Nash definitely stands out - he is overpaid.
Therefore, adding Nash is not a slam-dunk for any team. While CBJ is asking for a hefty price in return for Nash, Howson is going to have to realize that he is not a sure thing in return - the team that acquires him has to believe that he can get to that next level as well, and live up to this deal. If he cannot, then this is a bad deal that the acquiring team traded away a solid chunk of their future for. And no GM wants to make that sort of trade. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 06:42:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Wow! I guess it depends on the exact comparison really, but some of those names i wouldn't even consider in the same conversation as Nash! Let's face it, he's only played with high quality players at WC's and Olympics so it's hard to compare to some of the others. But, if you're talking about who i'd rather have for let's say the next 5 years, he'd be ahead of many of them! I'm not about to say he's a top 5 winger or top 15 forward or whatever the argument is, but give him to me ANY day over Erat, Neal, Lucic, Heatley, Brown, Vanek, St Louis, Pominville, Wheeler, Williams, Semin and obviously the old guys like Whitney, Doan, Jagr, etc (if we're talking the next 5 years).
Is Nash overpaid? Yup. But the guy is still an extremely talented forward and i really hope he ends up somewhere with some talent to compliment his! Imagine if he, and not Neal, were paired up with Malkin last year in Pittsburgh? If he's put up 40+ in the past playing with the guys he has, i can only imagine what he'd do with Malking and/or Crosby or a guy in that ilk.
So I give you a list of 25 players I'd take ahead of Nash, and you spout off about a bunch of players that you would put Nash ahead of that I never mentioned
(Erat, Heatley, Brown, Vanek, Pominville, Wheeler, Williams, Whitney, Doan, Jagr)
Pretty funny stuff. Hey, if you like arguing with yourself, fine with me . . . but if you are going to pretend to have a DISCUSSION, discuss the players I mentioned. Don't inject other players to try and suit and fit your argument.
And btw, I'd take Doan over Nash.  Better leader, harder hitter, and better defensively.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 07:04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ok, so let's start with this 500 goal business. I mean all the respect in the word, but dude, c'mon. He's got 289 goals in 674 games. That means, if he doesn't slow down even a little bit through his 30's he will have to average 30 goals per seasons through the next 7 seasons. That's no injury and no slow down. I'm not saying it won't happen but i would say the odds are actually against him. I cant recall who posted it originally, but there is a history of goal scores significantly dropping production past the age of 30.
Now, to the 'elite' conversation. Take a read thought this. It's easily the fairest assessment of Nash I have ever read.
http://www.nesn.com/2012/07/rick-nash-not-the-elite-difference-maker-worthy-of-price-blue-jackets-are-demanding-in-trade-talks.html
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
hes avging pretty much the same goals per game as iginla, iginla has 516 and is only 35, all signs point to nash being a 500 goal man unless there is a dramatic change in his ever consistent performances , even if he avg 20 goals a year for the next 10 seasons and retires at 38 that would have him pretty close to 500 mark no?
Anybody with ability can play in the big leagues. But to be able to trick people year in and year out the way I did, I think that was a much greater feat.
Bob Uecker
I don't think Nash has or will have the same top-end skill level that Iginla had, and still has to some extent.
If he did, Nash would have scored 45 or more goals by now - he hasn't. And statistically, this means he won't, unless he is a total outlier (the word you were looking for Beans, not an enigma) like Iggy was/is. I just don't see it.
When talking about elite talent that makes others better . . . I am talking about guys like Iginla making Craig Conroy a 75 point player, Langkow a 30 goal scorer and 70 point player once.
I have never seen that with Rick Nash. And I made the mistake by thinking he was that kind of player, specifically when Umberger - a good young talented player - made his way to Columbus. Instead, I saw a very average, slight progression as Umberger hit his statistical peak years in unspectacular fashion.
Sorry, I don't see that Nash is a great player on his own - especially right now. I get it that a new, winning team will motivate him greatly, and playing with better talent could boost his numbers . . . but don't bank on it. We have seen this before. A big talent goes from a backwater, losing team, and suddenly has new pressures of winning, defensive responsibilities, more pessure from fans/media . . . and it's not as easy as it looked at first to simply boost your stats.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 07:05:19
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Slozo, if you look back you will see that I named most of those players. Althoughit was it stated, I believe Alex's post was directed at me.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 07:21:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Slozo, if you look back you will see that I named most of those players. Althoughit was it stated, I believe Alex's post was directed at me.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
Oh, I see . . . yeah, he posted right after me, so I thought he was directing comments at myself, but I see now it was really for you.
This is why we should always answer with a quote in a long thread with many different levels of conversation happening!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 11:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
This is why we should always answer with a quote in a long thread with many different levels of conversation happening!
Yes, i usually do and often with a reduced quoted post as i have here as i find the threads get so repetetive with post after post quoted again and again. Either way Slozo, i assumed that someone like yourself who's around here as much as you are would have read Beans post too and noticed those names mentioned and not just jump the gun and accuse me of arguing with myself.
As for Doan over Nash? You did read where i said i was comparing these guys for the next 5 years right, no in their primes? If you'd take Doan at 35-40 over Nash at 28-33, i'd wish your team well.
I don't for a second think that Nash is worth the dollars he's making, not by a long shot. He was rewarded for his loyalty to the Blue Jackets and unfortunately for them, he wants out now and not many teams are interested in the deal he has in place. Those few that are, don't want to pay the ransom he's owed! BUT, and overrated is so tough to judge, calling him overrated is so debateable that we could go on forever. Looking at what he's making, he def looks overrated but again, that money was an investment that CBJ really was forced to make as far as their franchise was concerned! But, seeing him play for teams like Canada at the Olympics makes me wonder if he's just simply a better all around player than some of us "non experts" realize. I'll admit, i don't see a ton of him, but from what i've watched, he's pretty darn good. |
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@valanche
Rookie
Canada
240 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 16:08:39
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I just want to point out Nash's contract which most of you find pretty bad:
7.8 million avg for next 6 years
What is so different about that and parise?
7.5 million avg for next 13 years
This is the new range for your 'complimentary' consistebtly productive players.
If GMs are shying away from trading for Nash I have to believe it is Howsons asking price.'
66 is > than 99 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2012 : 21:58:17
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quote:
Originally posted by @valanche
I just want to point out Nash's contract which most of you find pretty bad:
7.8 million avg for next 6 years
What is so different about that and parise?
7.5 million avg for next 13 years
This is the new range for your 'complimentary' consistebtly productive players.
If GMs are shying away from trading for Nash I have to believe it is Howsons asking price.'
66 is > than 99
Your "belief" is 100% correct, though it's no secret really. It's been widely reported that multiple team were and are interested in him but the asking price is scaring them off. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 07:49:35
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I disagree that this is the new range for a productive player. Free agency always inflates the costs of players.
I consider the 30 goal a season with potential for more player to be a $5 million player. Maybe $6 million on the outside, but not close to $8 million.
Think of players loike Ryan, Kesler, Neal, Bergeron, Plekanec, Kessel, Pominville, Getzlaf, Perry, Carter, Richards.
All of those guys are in the $5million to $6million range and their contracts are not that old.
I think it's a bit shortsighted to look at 2 contract, both of which most hockey guys would agree are overpaid, and call them the norm. It's simply not the case.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!! |
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Guest2346
( )
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Posted - 07/16/2012 : 13:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I disagree that this is the new range for a productive player. Free agency always inflates the costs of players.
I consider the 30 goal a season with potential for more player to be a $5 million player. Maybe $6 million on the outside, but not close to $8 million.
Think of players loike Ryan, Kesler, Neal, Bergeron, Plekanec, Kessel, Pominville, Getzlaf, Perry, Carter, Richards.
All of those guys are in the $5million to $6million range and their contracts are not that old.
I think it's a bit shortsighted to look at 2 contract, both of which most hockey guys would agree are overpaid, and call them the norm. It's simply not the case.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
see i disagree beans. perry and getzlafs contracts are old enough now or the players have developed that much more that their old contracts do look a little out of ordinary. if you think both of them sign for an avg of 5.325 million on their next contracts (next summer) than you are one smiling GM. i think both players get at least parise money maybe not over that many years.
as for bergeron, plekanec, pominville, and richards i just dont see any of those guys in rick nashs offensive class and that may dictate why they make less (two way lower scoring elite players).
i will agree that kesler, carter, kessel, and neal are all dynamic players signed on for very reasonable contracts - when on their game.
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@valanche
Rookie
Canada
240 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2012 : 13:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2346
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I disagree that this is the new range for a productive player. Free agency always inflates the costs of players.
I consider the 30 goal a season with potential for more player to be a $5 million player. Maybe $6 million on the outside, but not close to $8 million.
Think of players loike Ryan, Kesler, Neal, Bergeron, Plekanec, Kessel, Pominville, Getzlaf, Perry, Carter, Richards.
All of those guys are in the $5million to $6million range and their contracts are not that old.
I think it's a bit shortsighted to look at 2 contract, both of which most hockey guys would agree are overpaid, and call them the norm. It's simply not the case.
Daniel Alfredsson is the MVP of the universe. All hail the Ottawa Senators!!!!!
see i disagree beans. perry and getzlafs contracts are old enough now or the players have developed that much more that their old contracts do look a little out of ordinary. if you think both of them sign for an avg of 5.325 million on their next contracts (next summer) than you are one smiling GM. i think both players get at least parise money maybe not over that many years.
as for bergeron, plekanec, pominville, and richards i just dont see any of those guys in rick nashs offensive class and that may dictate why they make less (two way lower scoring elite players).
i will agree that kesler, carter, kessel, and neal are all dynamic players signed on for very reasonable contracts - when on their game.
that was me
66 is > than 99 |
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wheel of Nash 
