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Guest8875
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 Posted - 04/09/2012 : 12:48:06
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Poll Question:
Who should win the Lady Byng?
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Edited by - n/a on 04/26/2012 07:37:35
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 12:56:32
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| hossa should be in there too, but I say eberle, obviously |
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Sensfan101
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
500 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 14:03:23
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Matt Cooke
You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take Wayne Gretzky |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 19:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by sahis34
hossa should be in there too, but I say eberle, obviously
Why "obviously"? Cuz you're an Oiler fan?
For the Lady Byng, my pick is Loui Eriksson. |
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sahis34
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
591 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2012 : 22:16:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by sahis34
hossa should be in there too, but I say eberle, obviously
Why "obviously"? Cuz you're an Oiler fan?
For the Lady Byng, my pick is Loui Eriksson.
yes. He also deserves it but yes, its cause Im an oilers fan. |
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Guest7961
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Posted - 04/10/2012 : 11:10:07
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| YOU STUNNED AMERICAN. YOU SPELLED IT WRONG. GO TO THE LIBRARY. |
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Guest4377
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Posted - 04/10/2012 : 18:57:09
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Well, Guest7961 will never win an award for being the most gentlemanly!
BTW - why do you assume the typo was made by an American? And "stunned?" Really?
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Guest4342
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Posted - 04/11/2012 : 03:58:14
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I don't know who he was criticizing about there spelling. But it is The Lady Byng Memorial Trophy. And as a Canadian I'd like to say we aren't all ignorant.
Anyways I think Eberle will win, and yes I am an Oilers Fan.
Also Alex, you asked why "obviously". Yet didn't give any reason for picking eriksson. Besides the fact that Eberle had more points and less pims. Oh I guess that wouldn't be reason for picking Eriksson at all. My bad
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2012 : 08:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4342
Also Alex, you asked why "obviously". Yet didn't give any reason for picking eriksson. Besides the fact that Eberle had more points and less pims. Oh I guess that wouldn't be reason for picking Eriksson at all. My bad
I asked Sahis "why obviously" because i was wondering if he was implying that his vote was being cast because he's an Oiler fan? Personally i think that's a poor way to vote on something like this as it's very biased. However, he did say he thinks Eberle is deserving of it and i have no problem with that. As for my pick / answer, i wasn't asked why. THAT would be the reason i didn't explain my pick. The question simply asked out of the three choices, who my pick would be. Now, if you're curious, my reason, much like my Norris prediction of Weber, is based on Eriksson having very similar numbers to Eberle, AND having been a finalist last year. I tend to think that the voters look at guys who've "been there before" and not won, and lean their votes towards that guy, especially for an award like this, which is not exactly the biggest prize out there!
Hopefully you're now satisfied with my answer......  |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 14:47:32
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Originally posted by Alex116
"I asked Sahis "why obviously" because i was wondering if he was implying that his vote was being cast because he's an Oiler fan? Personally i think that's a poor way to vote on something like this as it's very biased. However, he did say he thinks Eberle is deserving of it and i have no problem with that. As for my pick / answer, i wasn't asked why. THAT would be the reason i didn't explain my pick. The question simply asked out of the three choices, who my pick would be. Now, if you're curious, my reason, much like my Norris prediction of Weber, is based on Eriksson having very similar numbers to Eberle, AND having been a finalist last year. I tend to think that the voters look at guys who've "been there before" and not won, and lean their votes towards that guy, especially for an award like this, which is not exactly the biggest prize out there!"
Now I'm not trying to change your mind Alex116, I'm just going to tell you some stats/facts about the award.
First off, Eberle had more points on a WAY worse team.
Second, Eberle was also a contender for the award all year, your correct, maybe not last year, but that shouldn't factor into your decision as this year is the only year that counts.
Third, he had less penalty minutes than Eriksson, or any other contender for the award, ya it was only 2 minutes less, but that is still a HUGE factor for the award.
Fourth, yes Eriksson had a better +/-, but again, he was on a better team, and lucky for Eberle, +/- has never counted for this award. Only points and penalty minutes do, if they count +/-, it will be the first time in the history of the award. Just like the Calder Trophy, +/- has never counted for the award.
(Which is why Nugent-Hopkins should beat out Landeskog for the Calder, and should have votes to spare. Look at 07-08, if +/- counted for the Calder, Backstrom would have beaten Kane for ROTY, but Kane won it because +/- doesn't count in the Calder, OR for the Lady Byng)
For all of those reasons above I will confidently say, that if Eberle doesn't win, that will be the biggest mistake in the history of the award.
JDC |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2012 : 22:34:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Originally posted by Alex116
"I asked Sahis "why obviously" because i was wondering if he was implying that his vote was being cast because he's an Oiler fan? Personally i think that's a poor way to vote on something like this as it's very biased. However, he did say he thinks Eberle is deserving of it and i have no problem with that. As for my pick / answer, i wasn't asked why. THAT would be the reason i didn't explain my pick. The question simply asked out of the three choices, who my pick would be. Now, if you're curious, my reason, much like my Norris prediction of Weber, is based on Eriksson having very similar numbers to Eberle, AND having been a finalist last year. I tend to think that the voters look at guys who've "been there before" and not won, and lean their votes towards that guy, especially for an award like this, which is not exactly the biggest prize out there!"
Now I'm not trying to change your mind Alex116, I'm just going to tell you some stats/facts about the award.
First off, Eberle had more points on a WAY worse team.
Second, Eberle was also a contender for the award all year, your correct, maybe not last year, but that shouldn't factor into your decision as this year is the only year that counts.
Third, he had less penalty minutes than Eriksson, or any other contender for the award, ya it was only 2 minutes less, but that is still a HUGE factor for the award.
Fourth, yes Eriksson had a better +/-, but again, he was on a better team, and lucky for Eberle, +/- has never counted for this award. Only points and penalty minutes do, if they count +/-, it will be the first time in the history of the award. Just like the Calder Trophy, +/- has never counted for the award.
(Which is why Nugent-Hopkins should beat out Landeskog for the Calder, and should have votes to spare. Look at 07-08, if +/- counted for the Calder, Backstrom would have beaten Kane for ROTY, but Kane won it because +/- doesn't count in the Calder, OR for the Lady Byng)
For all of those reasons above I will confidently say, that if Eberle doesn't win, that will be the biggest mistake in the history of the award.
JDC
Slantos.....welcome aboard, i noticed this was your first post.
Now lemme first clarify something. I screwed up with the wording here and when i said "For the Lady Byng, my pick is Loui Eriksson.", i meant that he would be who i thought would win, not necessarily who i'd vote for if i had a vote. The question said "Who should win" and i thought it was asking who i thought would win. I have no problem and wouldn't complain one bit if Eberle wins it. I love the kid! Love his game, love everything about him, except that he's not a Canuck! The only reason i asked Sahis what i did, was that i don't think being a fan of a guy or the team he plays for is a very good way to pick him for an award, which is something that sahis admits he did to some degree!
As far as your other (4) points about the award:
1. Agreed. The Stars were def better than the Oilers
2. I do think that past years voting comes into play and that's why i mentioned that voters may favour Eriksson. It also shows i misunderstood the question. I too don't think last year should factor in, but unfortunately, it seems to.
3. I honestly don't think that 2 mins in penalties is "huge". I certainly don't see one guy getting a vote over another due to 2 mins.
4. +/- prob doesn't come into play for this "gentlemanly" award. Though it might ever so slightly considering the winner is the "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability". I would argue that +/- could be used to judge a players "high standard of playing ability". Don't kid yourself, it most certainly does/can come into play for the Calder as that trophy is for the player who's deemed to have been "the most proficient in his first year". I would tend to believe that +/- is considered there too!
BTW, i think your final statement could be considered bold, biased, etc. I don't know the history of the award and who's lost when maybe should have won, but there are others who might even be in the mix this year not listed on this poll, for example, Brian Campbell. He had over 50 points as a dman and just 6 PIMs in a full 82 games!!! There may be others too, but Campbell is one i've heard mentioned as a favorite as well as these guys.
BTW, my pick for the Calder, both who i would pick and who i think will win is RNH. Kid's already a stud and nothing against Landeskog, i value points more than games played so it's a given i'd vote RNH.  |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 06:05:50
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If one of the voters, votes for Eriksson because he was a finalist last year, they should not be voting, because as I stated before it has nothing to do with this years award, but only a certain players history. The people they poll have a certain responsibility to realize that.
Agreed, I don't think a player should get a vote over another player because of 2 PIM, but seeing as a lot of people view that as the main stat you need to win award (yes with a high level of play, but they are both extremely close there) But the fact of the matter is, some people will vote for Eberle because he has 2 PIM less, and they wouldn't be wrong to do so. (Yes I realize you weren't saying they would be wrong to do so, was again just stating a fact.)
For Lady Byng I agree +/- is apart of high level of play, and for the Calder, +/- could PARTIALLY be used too judge which player had a better season. I was just stating that it has never been that significant in deciding the winner for either award, and there's a big reason for that.
Again refer back to the 07-08 Calder winner and you'll see how important +/- is for the award (not really at all). And look back to the last 2-4 Lady Byng finalists/winners, and again you'll see how merely insignificant +/- is for the award.
The reason that +/- does not way heavily on these awards is because it's effected quite a bit by how good a players team/goalie is, and it is also effected by how good a persons line mates are.
Also, yes my last statement was bold, but I truly believe it. And sure if I made that statement (that it would be a joke if Eberle didn't win) strictly because I'm an Oilers fan, yes it would be biased, but that's not at all the reason why I made that statement. (Your right that's not the proper way to make decisions on these awards) I said that statement because I believe considering the team he plays on, he was better, statistically, for the Lady Byng than the next nominee. (nothing against Eriksson, as I would LOVE to have him on the big Oil as well.) And I also gave stats to support my beliefs and statements, unlike that Shias person.
And yes I COMPLETELY agree, that Brian Campbell should be a nominee, and possibly even a favorite, it's disgusting how he isn't. (Although that was biased as I tend to favor defenseman for these awards) LOL
So I have one last question, if you think Eriksson WILL win, who do you think SHOULD win? (Give valid reasons and statistics to back up your argument as I did :-D)
JDC |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 10:10:14
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I will keep this very simple. I THINK Brian Campbell should win the award. I don't think he will seeing as only 2 dmen in the history of the award have ever won it for some reason, but look at the most simple numbers.
Campbell led the league with a total of 2205:31 mins on the ice. He had just 3 minor penalties for a total of 6 mins.
Eberle played 1372:35 mins. He had 10 PIMs.
With the amount of ice time dmen get, i'm not sure why they don't win more often. Are dmen less likely to take a penalty? I'd think not with all the play in front of the net and having to defend all the time?
Anyway, look at those numbers and you'll prob see my reasoning for Campbell. (Not to mention he had 53pts which i believe was 2nd among dmen and a pretty good total nowadays) |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 14:36:27
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That's completely fair, and good reasoning... How about if you had to choose between Eberle and Eriksson? Who do you think SHOULD win between those two?
JDC |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2012 : 20:00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
That's completely fair, and good reasoning... How about if you had to choose between Eberle and Eriksson? Who do you think SHOULD win between those two?
JDC
Let's look at'em both.....
Eberle 78GP 34G 42A 76PTS +4 10PIMs 17:35TOI/G
Loui 82GP 26G 45A 71PTS +18 12PIMs 19:45TOI/G
I'd prob pick Eriksson just for the simple reason that Eberle played 4 less games. He prob would have gotten into a fight in one of those.  All kidding asided, it's a coin flip, and because this award is borderline useless imo, i'd prob go with Eriksson, and if you don't like that, you'll hate my reasoning more, but because he missed out on it last year. Sorry, i know that's wrong, but like the voters, it's inevittable that votes will go that way when the numbers are so similar.
BTW, you say that Eberle's 2 less PIMs is "huge", but keep in mind that number i gave you earlier of 1372:35. That was Eberle's time on ice. Eriksson's was 1620:28. That's over 4 hours of ice time with only 1 more penalty??? That's approx 250 one minute shifts with only 1 more penalty???
Oh, and there's two other guys with very nice numbers who may not even get in the running here, Jason Pominville and Matt Moulson. Pomminville had 30G and 73PTS with just 12PIM's and Moulson had 36G and 69PTS with just 6PIMs!!! OH, and both played more games than Eberle and had more TOI overall.
Don't get me wrong, if Eberle wins, i'm not going to say he's not deserving. They realistically all are. But really, like i said earlier, it's a borderline useless award, so i can't picture myself ever getting upset over a winner. Heck, maybe they won't be able to decide between these guys and will give it to Matt Cooke!
After looking at the numbers i've supplied, do you still think Eberle not winning would be the "biggest mistake in the history of the award"??? |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2012 : 05:28:06
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Yes. Because all of this TOI/G and GP'd is not relevant to this award. Eberle posts the best numbers in 2/3 of the only relevant stats for this award, compared to Eriksson. The only stat where he's not better in is +/-. And there is just that, only 3 relevant stats for this award. (It's fine that your basing your opinion on TOI, but voters should not). So again, with more PIM and less points than Eberle, it should be an easy choice for voters to choose between Eberle and Eriksson.
As for Pominville, Eberle has more points, less PIM's, and a better +/- than him. Should be an easy decisions for voters to decide between those 2 as Eberle has better numbers in 3/3 of the relevant stats.
Eberle 76P, +4, 10 PIM
Eriksson 71P, +18, 12 PIM
Moulson 69P, +1, 6 PIM
As for the 3 main contenders, seeing as thats how the numbers break down, Eberle still has both those guys beaten in 2/3 of yhe relevant stats. But if anyone other than Eberle is to win the award, out of those other 2, it should be Eriksson as he has better numbers in 2/3 of the relevant stats than Moulson. (points and +/-, just like Eberle's numbers compared to Moulson's)
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2012 : 07:28:12
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But I also wouldn't be suprised if Moulson steals a few votes away from Loui and Eb's, for the same reason I thought Eberle would steal some votes away from Eriksson, lower penalty minutes. Because as I've stated before, it's one of the two most relevant categories of stats linked to this award. (Besides being a high scoring little pu$$y, oh wait... That IS high points and low penalty minutes... LMAO)
Also yes, if Eberle doesn't win, I would be very happy if Brian Campbell took 'er home, as I also value defenceman more than forwards. But as for deserving the award statistically:
1. Eberle
2. Eriksson
3/4. Campbell/Moulson
5. Pominville
P.S. Also, I can't WAIT to welcome Yakupov to the Oilers! Within the next 3 years watch out Canucks!! Also I hope the Oilers get the 1st pick next year, so we could get the next Crosby (if there will EVER be one!) in Nathan MacKinnon!! (Any comment on THAT "soon to be out in the first round" Canucks fan!!! :-D :-P )
JDC |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2012 : 22:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Yes. Because all of this TOI/G and GP'd is not relevant to this award. Eberle posts the best numbers in 2/3 of the only relevant stats for this award, compared to Eriksson. The only stat where he's not better in is +/-. And there is just that, only 3 relevant stats for this award. (It's fine that your basing your opinion on TOI, but voters should not). So again, with more PIM and less points than Eberle, it should be an easy choice for voters to choose between Eberle and Eriksson.
Slantos....Please feel free to show me where you're getting all your info in regards to what is relevant to this award and what the voters are supposed to base their decision on. Please do share that with me, because last time i checked, it said: The Lady Byng Trophy, is presented each year to the National Hockey League "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability". Nowhere did i read that having 2 less penalty mins means a lot, nor a few more points. You also talk about how Eberle was on "a WAY worse team" than Eberle. So what? I honestly don't think they simply take most points and fewest PIMs and hand out the award, but if you can prove otherwise, please do.
As for TOI per game, why wouldn't it matter? You seem to have put a lot of importance on those 2 mins in PM's that Eriksson had over Eberle, but you don't consider the fact that Eriksson played over 4 more hours of hockey, in which he could accumulate more PIMs? Sure, i'll admit, he played more time therefore he should have more points, but the whole point is, i don't think the voters care about 2PIMs. They look at guys who've done well, had good seasons and low PIM's in general. They then vote on this useless award (notice it's no longer borderline useless?) and someone wins it and no one gets excited.
As for your "(Any comment on THAT "soon to be out in the first round" Canucks fan!!! :-D :-P )" comment, i don't get it? Things are at times, difficult to determine in print (as to their meaning) therefore i'm a little afraid to reply. I think i'll leave that one alone as i'm confused by it more than anything......
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Guest8927
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Posted - 04/21/2012 : 22:39:51
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If you look at past winners and finalists you will see how important most points and least penalty is.
First, we can go on record saying that Eberle was more gentlemanly. I'll be the first to admit not by much.
Second, your correct, Eriksson did play a ton of more minutes. And you're right, he should've had more points if he was playing at a higher level.
Third, my statement about the Oilers and Canucks wasn't that confusing. |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2012 : 22:43:56
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Sorry forgot to sign in. Also if you'll look at the poll above, a lot of people agree with me. I'm the only one backing up my argument.
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 01:55:11
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And did I ever once say that they're just going to hand over the award to the person with the most points and the least penalty minutes? No. But Eberle deserves it, because inevitably and unfortunately for Eriksson, if you look at previous winners and nominees, you'll see that points and penalty minutes do count for something. And Eb's had more points and less PIM. Numbers don't lie my friend.
And yes if Eberle had of played the same amount of TOI, he would of had tied in PIM with Eriksson, but he also would of had 14 more points.
1372 / 76P = 18 min,
248 min played less / 18 min per point = 13.77 more points
1372 / 10 PIM = 137.2 mins played per one penalty minute
248 mins played less / 137 = 1.8 more PIM
So same amount of TOI and the numbers would have looked like this:
Eberle 90P 12 PIM
Eriksson 71P 12 PIM
So if you want Eriksson to win, I wouldn't bring up the TOI, as it makes him look worse.
So compared to Eriksson, I believe that will satisfy the definition "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability", as Eberle had better production rate at points/per minute played, and had a better penalties/per minute played ratio.
So if you look at previous Lady Byng awards, you'll see that points and penalty minutes count for quite a bit of it, it's easy to say who SHOULD win.
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 05:05:27
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What stat do you suppose they should look at, to judge which player, was the "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct" other than penalty minutes?? I would like to know which stat you suggest or think they should look at to judge THIS part of the award... (OTHER than PIM's)
And which stat will show a "high standard of playing ability" other than points?
(And as I said before +/- says more about a players team, line mates, & goalie, than it says about an individuals play) I would like to know which stat you suggest or think they should look at to judge THIS part of the award... (OTHER than points)
Just look at the last 2-3 finalists and winners, and you'll see that, PIM's and Points, are a big factor in winning this award.
And I'll be the first to admit, I don't think 2 PIM SHOULD be a huge difference, but people will vote for players with lower penalty minutes, (not necessarily the lowest), as that's the first requirement to winning the award.
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 10:43:58
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2008-2009 Lady Byng Nominees
Datsyuk has better #'s in 2/3 of the relevant stats - **+Winner***
**Datsyuk: 81GP, 97P, +34, 22PIM**
St. Louis: 82GP, 80P, +4, 14PIM
Parise: 82GP, 94P, +30, 24PIM
2009-2010 Lady Byng Nominees
St. Louis has better #'s in 2/3 of the relevant stats - ***Winner***
**St. Louis: 82GP, 94P, -8, 12PIM**
Datsyuk: 80GP, 70P, +17, 18PIM
Richards: 80GP, 91P, -12, 14 PIM
2010-2011 Lady Byng Nominees
St. Louis has better #'s in 2/3 of the relevant stats - ***Winner***
**St. Louis: 82GP, 99P, +0, 12 PIM**
Datsyuk: 56GP, 59P, +11, 15 PIM
Richards: 72GP, 77P, +1, 24PIM
2011-2012 Lady Byng Nominees
**Eberle: 78GP, 76P, +4, 10PIM**
Eriksson: 82GP, 71P, +18, 12PIM
Moulson: 82GP, 69P, +1, 6PIM
Eberle has better #'s in 2/3 of the relevant stats - Winner???
There's some proof that there is 3 main stats for this award, so why should the award be given for different stats this year, than the previous 3 years???
So I'll confidently say it again, if Eberle doesn't win, that'll be one of the biggest mistakes in the history of the award.
JDC |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 12:49:20
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I am pretty sure the guy that wins the Lady Byng cares a little bit less about it than Slantos does. I also know that the Byng has at least once been awarded as a consolation prize. When Wayne won it in '79 or '80(one of those), he had tied Marcel Dionne for the scoring lead, but lost out on the Art Ross, because Dionne had more goals. He was also ruled out of the Calder race because of his time spent in the WHA. I believe there are further examples of Lady Byng being a consolation, but either way, it's not usually something that gets debated every spring. Would be nice to see an Oiler get some hardware after all these years, though.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013. |
Edited by - OILINONTARIO on 04/22/2012 12:59:53 |
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Guest8927
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Posted - 04/22/2012 : 13:29:18
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| LOL, no, I really don't care about it. I was merely just showing that over the last 3 years it has been awarded for points, +/-, and PIM. The person who has better stat #'s in most of those categories over the last 3 years has walked away with the award, and it should be no different this year. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 16:04:26
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Slantos.... I hope Eberle wins, for your sake. You seem awfully hung up on this virtually meaningless award. Personally, i could care less really. Personally, i think they (the voters) would not make their decision based on 2 PIM's, but i could be wrong because the award is so useless that they might just do that for easiness in making their pick!!!
Regardless, if Eberle doesn't win the Byng, i vehemently disagree that it will be "the worst mistake in the history of this award". There are far too many who are in the mix and it's certianly not as though Eberle has run away with it and made it a given that he wins.
BTW, as simple as you claim it is, i still don't understand this: quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
P.S. Also, I can't WAIT to welcome Yakupov to the Oilers! Within the next 3 years watch out Canucks!! Also I hope the Oilers get the 1st pick next year, so we could get the next Crosby (if there will EVER be one!) in Nathan MacKinnon!! (Any comment on THAT "soon to be out in the first round" Canucks fan!!! :-D :-P )
JDC
You haven't been around here long enough perhaps to understand that often things in print are taken out of context. I'm not sure if that's a cheap shot at me, a cheap shot at the Canucks, a friendly poke regarding the Canucks, a serious question about what i think about the Oilers possibly drafting another stud and a guy potentially as good as Crosby, etc? I'm serious, i really don't get it? |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2012 : 16:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
P.S. Also, I can't WAIT to welcome Yakupov to the Oilers! Within the next 3 years watch out Canucks!! Also I hope the Oilers get the 1st pick next year, so we could get the next Crosby (if there will EVER be one!) in Nathan MacKinnon!! (Any comment on THAT "soon to be out in the first round" Canucks fan!!! :-D :-P )
JDC
You actually hope Edmonton finishes last so they can get MacKinnon?
Yakapov or not I think it's a little early for Edmonton to start saying watch out! to the Canucks. The Oilers still have A LOT of missing pieces.
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 08:12:51
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1st. I agree, there ARE many players in the running for the award. But if you look at the relevance of each category of statistics (as per the last 3 years) and the stats each of the nominees put up, none are as deserving as Eberle. Eberle has put up better stats that are relevant for this award, and if you look at the stats below, you'll see that Eberle should have run away with the award as much as Datsyuk did in 08-09, and St. Louis did in 09-10 (And I'm SURE someone voted for them because of they're relevant 2 less PIM's {although as I've said before I don't think they should have}, and if you don't think they voted because of that, then what, points??? AND if you look over the last 3 years you'll see that the player with the MOST points, and less PIM's won) And as I've stated before, +/- shouldn't be a relevant stat for this award, as it has more to do with team play, rather than individual play.
(As it would be easier for somebody, who was playing on a team with Lehtonen, with a defense like Dallas', to put up the +/- Eriksson did.... Compared to 2 terrible Oilers goalies, and a horrifying Oilers defense.. It's absolutely astonishing that Eberle was still a + player, if you don't agree with that your dense)
**Datsyuk: 81GP, 97P, +34, 22PIM**
St. Louis: 82GP, 80P, +4, 14PIM
Parise: 82GP, 94P, +30, 24PIM
**St. Louis: 82GP, 94P, -8, 12PIM**
Datsyuk: 80GP, 70P, +17, 18PIM
Richards: 80GP, 91P, -12, 14 PIM
Eberle: 78GP, 76P, +4, 10PIM
Eriksson: 82GP, 71P, +18, 12PIM
2nd. I don't know why you say I'm so hung up on the award. All I was doing was answering your question, and showing you where I was getting my info from, and basing my statements off of, that over the last 3 years, points and PIM's were the most relevant stats needed to win the award. But I guess maybe your just getting a little angry because you don't have any more stats to argue that Eriksson should win, because just like the last 3 years and winners, Eberle has Eriksson beat in 2/3 of the relevant statistical catergories.
3rd. That was a cheap shot at you, as well as the Canucks. And it was a question about what you think of the soon to be stacked Oilers.... If you knew how to read, you would have realized that.
4th. Eriksson might win because he was a finalist last year, but again I'll say that would be a joke, as last year shouldn't count for this award, and the voters have a responsibility to realize that.
5th. I really don't care who wins, I was just backing up my pick with previous relevant stats, and to be honest, all awards are pointless, as they mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
And last, unless the Oilers are going to win the cup, yes I hope they get last again. As they this year, last year, and the year before, have gained more than every team except for the Stanley Cup winners (Hopkins, Hall, and Yakupov) With the exception of Boston, who have gained Seguin, Hamilton, and a cup ring.
JDC |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 11:27:49
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FYI.....Eberle has a better chance to win than Eriksson, seeing as the finalists were announced as Campbell, Moulson and Eberle.
As for your latest rant, i will do my best to make it your last as you're repeating yourself again and again and it's boring me to death. I hope you've been cutting and pasting or your fingers must be getting really tired!
You just said that i think Eriksson "should" win. If you'd take some time off from typing so much and actually read what i've said, you'll see where i admitted i read the original question wrong and said i thought Eriksson "would" win. Then i explained i thought Campbell "should" win. SO, Campbell is my pick as to who "SHOULD" win the award. No he doesn't have the points that Eberle did, but keep in mind, he's a defenseman.
Now, did you just type: AND if you look over the last 3 years you'll see that the player with the MOST points, and less PIM's won) and then provide us with numbers that go right against that? Look at Datsyuk's PIMs compared to St Louis' in the year he won. Don't the numbers YOU supplied say that Datsyuk actually had 8 more PIMs than St Louis? And don't go telling me his +/- was better, cuz you clearly stated that's not relevant.
As to your cheap shot at me regarding my reading skills, i can in fact read. THAT is how i noticed the errors you made. As far as my comments as to how good the Oilers will be, YUP, they sure as hell should be! What can i do about it? They've stunk for so long, they're bound to improve as would most franchises if given a top pick for 5 years or whatever it's been?
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 11:28:53
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Wow, personal shots and team bashing when discussing the Lady Bing award. Learn to read (priceless), and this from a guy making a post with a huge run-on sentence. Is that Ironic or hypocritical
Either way an arguement can be made for both players. TOI to me is an important stat, as well as games played. So by your stats provided Eberle was 2/5 on relavant stats to Eriksson. I would not also totally disregard a +/- for a player, but would base its worth from the difference between a teams +/- average and the players. I am not arguing against either player but could make an arguement for either. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 12:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Wow, personal shots and team bashing when discussing the Lady Bing award. Learn to read (priceless), and this from a guy making a post with a huge run-on sentence. Is that Ironic or hypocritical
Lol, pretty funny actually!
BTW, i forgot to mention that Moulson AND Campbell both have fewer PIMs than Eberle. If that stat is one of only two which are "relevant" to this award, this could be a very close vote. Which actually brings us back to the whole point that regardless of who wins, it won't be "the biggest mistake in the history of the award"! No one, i repeat, NO ONE, has run away with this award to the point that one could really seriously claim that! |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 15:41:06
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First, the award was given to Datsyuk that year, because he had the MOST POINTS, with low penalty minutes, and yes a better +/- came into play that year. Again, better #'s in 2/3 of the relevant stats.
2nd. I'll say learn to read again, because since we came to the consensus that +/- could PARTIALLY be used to judge "a high standard of playing ability" and looking at the past 3 winners stats, I never said it was irrelevant. I said it SHOULDN'T be relevant (as +/- is clouded by a players team, and points should be considered more relevant to the definition of "a high standard of playing ability") There's a difference between saying it's irrelevant, and saying it SHOULDN'T be relevant.
As per you saying Campbell should win, yes you said that. I THEN asked you "How about if you had to choose between Eberle and Eriksson? Who do you think SHOULD win between those two?". And then you went on to give reasons why you thought Eriksson SHOULD win over Eberle & TOI was your main factor, but maybe JOSHUACANADA missed my comments on that.
If Eberle had of played the exact same amount of TOI as Eriksson, it would have been worse for Eriksson, as their stats would of ended up like this
Eberle: 90P, 12PIM
Eriksson: 71P, 12PIM
So either way you shake a stick at it Eberle would have better #'s. Also TOI is not one of the 3 MAIN stats used to judge the nominees for this award. (Just look at the last 3 winners)
As for me writing run on sentences being ironic or hypocritical after saying "learn to read", it is neither, as reading and writing are completely different.
Lastly, I wouldn't have to keep repeating myself if you would just read my statements and get them through your head.
JDC |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 15:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
If Eberle had of played the exact same amount of TOI as Eriksson, it would have been worse for Eriksson, as their stats would of ended up like this
Eberle: 90P, 12PIM
Eriksson: 71P, 12PIM
JDC
I understand your logic here, you think Eberle would have got more points if he had more ice time.
However I think your logic might be flawed, a player who plays more minutes may play in different situations such as the penalty kill where points are few and far between.
He may also be more fatigued and not preform as well when playing more minutes per game.
It is also hard to say how many more penalties he would have taken with increased ice time, fatigued players are often the ones that take lazy penalties and mental mistakes.
Im not saying Eberle wouldn't have gotten more points had he had more ice time I just think it's wrong to assume that he definitely would have.
Added time on ice dose not always equal production. I think this was seen when Alex Ovechkin's minutes were cut when Dale Hunter came in, he had less ice time but put up more points.
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 16:13:21
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Clatts....i think we've been duped . I just realized a couple things. "Slantos" has made 12 posts, 11 of which are antogonizing towards you or i in this thread. The other, a random one in the Oil Pick First again thread?
Guest8875 has been egging us on in the Luongo Trade topic in a similar fashion.
Guest8875 also started this poll (about the Lady "Bing") and has not weighed in since, seems kinda fishy, no?
After reading through both threads, i've come to the conclusion that:
Slantos = Guest8875 (and/or vice versa)
IF NOT, my best guest judging by this thread would be:
Slantos = Jordan Eberle |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 16:22:46
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Who's to say Eberle would have been fatigued? It's just as wrong to assume that as it is too assume he would have more points... I simply figured it out the only logical way; and did his "on pace for"....
And heres how the new nominees break down...
Eberle: 76P, +4, 10PIM
Campbell: 53P, -9, 6PIM
Moulson: 69, +1, 6PIM
Again, better in 2/3 of the relevant stats, and since the previous 3 winners had MOST POINTS, with LOW penalty minutes. Not necessarily the LOWEST, as Datsyuk's winning year will show you.
Yes we have to keep in mind Campbell's a defenseman, but we also have to keep in mind that stats shouldn't matter if your a forward or defenseman. (As Mike Green on Washington has had 76P, +39, 54PIM, yes his PIM was higher, but that tells you Campbell could've got as many points as Eberle, and could've had as good a +/- as Eberle did, but failed to)
So Eberle has still run away with it even though the nominees we are debating have changed.
P.S. I've never been a guest other then the post I told you I forgot to sign in.
JDC |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 17:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Who's to say Eberle would have been fatigued? It's just as wrong to assume that as it is too assume he would have more points... I simply figured it out the only logical way; and did his "on pace for"....
And heres how the new nominees break down...
Eberle: 76P, +4, 10PIM
Campbell: 53P, -9, 6PIM
Moulson: 69, +1, 6PIM
Again, better in 2/3 of the relevant stats, and since the previous 3 winners had MOST POINTS, with LOW penalty minutes. Not necessarily the LOWEST, as Datsyuk's winning year will show you.
Yes we have to keep in mind Campbell's a defenseman, but we also have to keep in mind that stats shouldn't matter if your a forward or defenseman. (As Mike Green on Washington has had 76P, +39, 54PIM, yes his PIM was higher, but that tells you Campbell could've got as many points as Eberle, and could've had as good a +/- as Eberle did, but failed to)
So Eberle has still run away with it even though the nominees we are debating have changed.
P.S. I've never been a guest other then the post I told you I forgot to sign in.
JDC
He is only 20 so i'm thinking his endurance is not what it will be when he matures a bit more. Besides I gave more reasons that just fatigue.
I don't want to get into this debate over who should win the Lady Byng as I could care less.
I was just giving my thoughts on that more TOI does not always equal more production, if you don't agree thats up to you.
Slantos I think Alex is arguing that the award could go to any of the nominees, he is not saying Eberle doesn't deserve or won't win he just doesn't agree with the statement " if Eberle doesn't win, that will be the biggest mistake in the history of the award".
With that statement you are inviting people to argue for the other guys to show that they have as good a chance, if not a better chance of winning the award.
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 19:49:32
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Here is an argument for the candidates
Campbell:
-2nd in points and assists for defencemen
-Played all 82 games
-Only visited the penalty box 3 times
-No penalties in the last 25 games and only one since the All-Star Break
-would be the first defencemen since the 50's to win the Byng
-Team made the playoffs
-Played more minutes than other candidates, defencemen are more prone to taking penalties
Eberle:
-Only 2nd season in the NHL
-Had a 31 game stretch with no penalties
-Only 10 pims
-Career highs in goals (34), assists (42), points (76) and power-play goals (10).
Moulson
-With six penalty minutes, he became the first player since Paul Kariya in 1996-97 to score at least 30 goals and have single-digit penalty minutes.
-post career-bests of 36 goals -- 10th in the League -- 33 assists and 69 points
-Moulson is one of 8 players with 30 goals in each of the last 3 years. Here are the other 7:
Stamkos, Ovechkin, Marleau, Kovalchuk, Iginla, Ryan, Kessel
Then there is also a wildcard in receiving this trophy
"to the player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability"
Now I haven't watched these players enough to know but "sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct " is not measured by any STAT, maybe one of the candidates chirps at the refs while the other one picks up the opposing players equipment after a fight and brings it over to him.
Either way to say "if Eberle doesn't win, that will be the biggest mistake in the history of the award". Is an overstatement if not a miss-statement.
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 20:18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Clatts
Slantos I think Alex is arguing that the award could go to any of the nominees, he is not saying Eberle doesn't deserve or won't win he just doesn't agree with the statement " if Eberle doesn't win, that will be the biggest mistake in the history of the award".
With that statement you are inviting people to argue for the other guys to show that they have as good a chance, if not a better chance of winning the award.
DING DING DING!!! Thank you Clatts!!! THAT is exactly the point i've been trying to get across! And here i was thinking it was obvious?  |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 20:38:07
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Well there is no way you can argue this statement:
Of the 3 statistics that have carried the most weight and been the most relevant toward winning the Lady Byng over the last 3 years, Jordan Eberle has posted better stats than both the nominees in 2/3 of these stat categories.
JDC |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 20:53:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Well there is no way you can argue this statement:
Of the 3 statistics that have carried the most weight and been the most relevant toward winning the Lady Byng over the last 3 years, Jordan Eberle has posted better stats than both the nominees in 2/3 of these stat categories.
JDC
If you were to look at only those stats then yes I agree Eberle wins, but this is not the ART ROSS were the winner is based on statistics. In fact there is no mention of stats at all in the requirements for winning the trophy.
Like I said in a previous post there is a element to this trophy that can't be measured by any STAT. You must be sportsmanlike and play at a high level. Can you honestly say that Eberle is by far, without a shadow of doubt more sportsmanlike and plays at a higher level than Moulson and Campbell? Obviously not, unless you watched a lot of Islander and Panther games this year. I know I haven't.
Anyway I wouldn't get your hopes up on Eberle as the majority of people who will vote on this award will be from the East and will have not stayed up until all hours of the night to watch Eberle play.
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 21:09:55
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Here are some of my favorite parts (Slantos quotes) of this thread!
"he (Eberle) had less penalty minutes than Eriksson, or any other contender for the award, ya it was only 2 minutes less, but that is still a HUGE factor for the award." Says who? Where did you find this info that 2 mins less is "HUGE"???
You ready for this one? This is one of the best btw.....
yes Eriksson had a better +/-, but again, he was on a better team, and lucky for Eberle, +/- has never counted for this award. Only points and penalty minutes do, if they count +/-, it will be the first time in the history of the award. Just like the Calder Trophy, +/- has never counted for the award.
Wait a minute.....wait just a minute! Aren't you now using +/- as one of the 3 most important stats? No, you couldn't be, i must be mistaken. Perhaps it's my inability to read that you pointed out earlier today? Couldn't be because the +/- stat now favours your Eberle pick over the other two finalists could it? Na.....
"Agreed, I don't think a player should get a vote over another player because of 2 PIM"
But, i thought those 2 PIMs were "HUGE"? Contradictory at all?
"The reason that +/- does not way heavily on these awards is because it's effected quite a bit by how good a players team/goalie is, and it is also effected by how good a persons line mates are."
Again, contradict yourself much?
You know, i was gonna go through this entire thread and list all my favs, but after about 2 or 3 Slantos posts, i'm already bored and tired of the contradictory crap. I have nothing to prove anyway, as you (Slantos) continue to go on about Eberle vs Eriksson when he wasn't even the guy i think "should" win the award. I'm not going to argue stats for a forward vs a dman so i'll leave it up to the voters to decide and i'll cross my fingers for your Oiler just so i don't have to listen to you whine if he loses!
Funny though, after all this, you still can't even grasp the concept that my entire argument is that your "biggest mistake in the history....." comment is utter poppycock! (did i use that in the right context Slozo?)
On top of it all, i even said " I have no problem and wouldn't complain one bit if Eberle wins it. I love the kid! Love his game, love everything about him, except that he's not a Canuck!" With everything you've said and especially the cheap shot at me, I think you feel i have something against Eberle or the Oilers and that's not the case.
BTW, it's the freakin' Lady Byng! Quit worrying about it so much...... |
Edited by - Alex116 on 04/23/2012 21:35:42 |
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2011/12 Lady Bing 
