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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
 Posted - 04/23/2012 : 21:21:33
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Aren't the nominees decided by their stats? If voters don't look at stats, what do they look at?
JDC |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 21:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Aren't the nominees decided by their stats? If voters don't look at stats, what do they look at?
JDC
Im sorry, Ive stated everything I think needs to be said, nowhere did I say the STAT's are not relevant, they are just not the deciding factor. If you believe that Eberle will win because he has a better +/- and more points then the others, go ahead. I was just trying to show you that it is not as black and white as he who wins 2/3 of the stats you've selected wins the award.
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 21:41:46
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Sorry, was busy editting a post that sent before i was finished. Clatts, be sure to check it out, i think you'll enjoy it  .
Stats do matter, and prob PIM's most seeing as it's a sportsmanship first award. Good sports, get few PIMs. Simple really. The other factor would be "high standard of playing ability". I'd like to think this is not just points but all around good hockey, be it +/-, consistency throughout the season, plays in many situations, etc. All around good hockey! |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 21:45:28
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Lady Byng! Lady Byng! Lady Byng! Whooooooo! Here we go Byng winner, here we go! Whoo Whoo!
EEEEERRRIIIKKKKSSSOOONNN!
EEEEERRRIIIKKKKSSSOOONNN!
EBERLE FOR MGP!
EBERLE FOR MGP!
Who cares?
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2013. |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2012 : 23:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Sorry, was busy editting a post that sent before i was finished. Clatts, be sure to check it out, i think you'll enjoy it .
It seems STATS are only important to some people when they back up their argument. Im just wondering how long it took you to edit that post 
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 06:02:15
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1st. I found that 2 minutes less in the box is a factor by looking at the last 3 winners and nominees as I've already stated. (I've said before, I don't THINK it should be a factor, but it is),
2nd. OBVIOUSLY not as big of factor as posting better numbers than the other nominees in 2/3 of the stats that matter for the award (you have to have LOW penalty minutes, not necessarily the LOWEST (as Datsyuk's year will show you) to be the "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct", as well as "combined with a "high standard of playing ability", which is indicated MOSTLY by points, as you can tell from the last three winners, as well as PARTIALLY by +/-, and +/- does not count AS MUCH AS points, as it only PARTIALLY shows YOUR standard of playing ability, because it is GREATLY effected by how good your team is, AGAIN I've stated that before) But again, yes it is effected quite a bit by a players team. Which is even more of a reason to vote for Eberle, as he was on a worse team than the other nominees and still had a better +/-... And saying (after correcting myself) that +/- does not weigh heavily on the award and saying it's not a factor are COMPLETELY different.
3rd. Also, I'll refresh your memory back to a time, when I asked you who "should" win between Eberle and Eriksson and you were arguing that you thought Eriksson "should" win over Eberle. So quit saying you never said Eriksson "should" win if it were between the 2, because you clearly hinted at it.
4th. Also if the award is not judged by stats, there is no other way to judge it unless the voters are refs, because if not, they don't know if one player has been in the refs ear more than the next nominee...
5th. (AND MOST IMPORTANTLY) It must be a HUGE coincidence that the past 3 winners have posted better numbers in 2/3 of the relevant statistical categories, if the award is not judged strictly on stats. Which is why it'd be a joke it Eberle doesn't win.
Again, I'm not worrying the award, just stating facts.
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 06:08:33
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And last but DEFINETLY not least I didn't select the stats I'm showing you, the NHL did...As Per the last 3 winners!!!
JDC |
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Guest8927
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Posted - 04/24/2012 : 06:11:49
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| "If you were to look at only those stats then yes I agree Eberle wins, but this is not the ART ROSS were the winner is based on statistics. In fact there is no mention of stats at all in the requirements for winning the trophy." - You suggesting stats don't matter @ all |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 08:20:52
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LOL @ Slantos! You're cracking me up. I was actually beginning to get frustrated with you, now it's become entertaining. Never before have i seen someone contradict themselves, change their mind, skew stats, etc as much and as poorly as you have to back up their opinion! It's comical.
Before "+/- has never counted" (do you remember writing that, cuz it's a direct quote from one of your posts), then it does count, then it only counts "PARTIALLY"! I can't wait to see what happens to it as the day passes by. Now that the finalists have been announced, and your pick Eberle has the best +/- of the 3, surely it will be the most important stat!!!!
I'm kinda curious, are you aware that the award has been given out 86 times, not just 3? you keep referencing the last 3 years?
Anyway, here's a good read, though maybe you (Slantos) should avoid it as Greg Wyshynski of "Puck Daddy" doesn't even have Eberle in his top 4 (yikes, easy now..... ).
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/lady-byng-trophy-finalists-campbell-vs-eberle-vs-211621836.html
Once again though, we come back to what this is all about, and that is your opinion that Eberle should win this award no questions asked otherwise it will be "the biggest mistake....blah, blah, blah.... )
Here, try to understand this and maybe you'll get what we've (Clatts and i anyway) have been trying to get across to you......
If Moulson or Campbell win the Lady Byng, it will prob be a close vote with Eberle right in the mix. All three played to "a high standard" and all three "exhibited sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct". Someone's gotta win, but with ALL relevant stats being very close, NO ONE is a runaway winner. It's gonna come down to the voters, simple as that. There can't be a "biggest mistake ever".
On the other hand, if E. Malkin doesn't get awarded the Art Ross Trophy, THAT, would be the biggest mistake in the history of that award.
You see the difference? Prob not, but at least i tried..... |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 09:58:57
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Hey I love that post as it just backs my arguement that he was playing at a higher standard, as he led his team in G, A, and P. Did Moulson or Campbell do that? Nope.
And yes, I was only stating stats from the last 3 years, because if Eberle doesn't win it will be as big of mistake, as if one of the previous 3 winners had not won.. As their stats are extremely similar, that's the point I was trying to get across.
JDC |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 10:30:22
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Slantos, do you get that a forwards stats vs a defenseman stats have nothing to do with the Lady Bing. Gentlemanly player with a high standard of play. Looking at the stats of the defenseman with close to similar stats who led the team to a higher standing in the season. Just cause he plays for the Oilers and they sucked this year and he led them in offense does not make him a shoe in for the Lady Bing.
The fact that these players play for a less offensive minded team, they played more important minutes on the ice, without large amounts of penalty minutes, with similar stats, to me means they are on the level and maybe better suited for the Lady Bing award. Btw, my shot at the Irony/Hypocracy of a heated debate over the lady bing was more of a joke for your personal shot at a poor reader, I dont think you are a poor reader Alex, and your glaring run on sentence to follow up your personal shot. Not really Lady Bing like.
BTW, I would be happy if any of the candidates won this award as they all have merit in an almost meaningless award. No clear cut winner and certainly wouldn't be the worst mistake ever if Eberle didn't win, but he could. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 04/24/2012 10:31:20 |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 12:51:18
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First, I never said the other candidates weren't deserving, I just said Eberle is more deserving, as statistically he is, you can't argue that. (He also would have led 18 other NHL teams in points if he were on them, not just the Oilers) And I never said he should be a shoe in cuz he was on a terrible team, I simply think that because Moulson and Campbell were on better teams they're stats should have been just as good as Eberle's, if not BETTER. (As far as points and +/- go)
Second, saying they play for less offensive minded team then the Oilers is crazy. Also, I've already showed you that defenseman or forward, it doesn't mean that Campbell's stats should obviously have less points and +/- than Eberle because he's a defenseman, because that is wrong, as Mike Green has had 76 points before.
Also just because Campbell's team finished higher, doesn't mean they finished higher even partially because of him (Versteeg, Fleischmann, Weiss, Bergenheim, Kopecky, Madden, Samuelsson, Gudbranson, Theodore, all played just as big of role, if not more so in Florida finishing high). Same with Moulon and the Islanders, there were other factors in them finishing higher than the Oilers.
Who are you to decide which is more important between penalty kill minutes, power play minutes or even strength minutes? They are all, EQUALLY IMPORTANT!
It would be just as big mistake as if St. Louis didn't win last year, as Eberle has also posted the best numbers for this award.
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 13:01:17
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Saying Campbell helped Florida finish where they did is like saying Nash helped Columbus finish where they did. It's just wrong, they're entire team together is why they finished where they did.
JDC |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 13:24:25
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| So Slantos, now Mike Green type stat make a Lady Bing. I am certain if they posted slightly better offensive stats you would find another reason to preclude them and make Eberle a stand alone winner. Offensive stats are only a part of the Lady Bing consideration. Are you dating him? I have only seen a one track mind like this from a love obsessed woman. Any one of the 3 are deserving winners. |
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Guest4178
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Posted - 04/24/2012 : 13:45:45
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Thanks for sending the "sports.yahoo" link Alex.
One thing which I found interesting in the link/article was the suggestion that referees and/or linesmen should vote on this award. I actually think it's a very good idea.
Why not? Wouldn't the officials on the ice have a better idea of who exhibits the most class (or who is the most gentlemanly) in the NHL? And moreso than the hockey writers?
There's a lot of stuff which takes place on the ice, which hockey writers (and fans) don't see, but there are things said and done by the players which the on ice officials see better than everyone else.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 14:53:43
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Guest4178 - I agree, i think the refs and linesmen should have a say in it. They can certainly look at the same stats that the "writers" who currently vote on it do, and add in their on ice knowledge of the players. I think it'd be a great idea!
Joshua.....i don't think Slantos was saying a guy like Green in his breakout season should be or should have been a candidate. I believe he's trying to make the point that because Green had 78 points, there's no reason why other dmen shouldn't be capable of that. Then again, who know's really what he's thinking????
Another "convenient" post Slantos (below). Convenient because you ignore anything that anyone's said to crush your argument and/or you change your tune! Loving this....
How can you possibly say:
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
First, I never said the other candidates weren't deserving, I just said Eberle is more deserving, as statistically he is, you can't argue that. (He also would have led 18 other NHL teams in points if he were on them, not just the Oilers) And I never said he should be a shoe in cuz he was on a terrible team, I simply think that because Moulson and Campbell were on better teams they're stats should have been just as good as Eberle's, if not BETTER. (As far as points and +/- go)
Do you not understand that your whole "biggest mistake ever" comment does in fact say that you feel Eberle should be the runaway winner. Does this not imply that the others don't actually deserve to win the award. You do know it's awarded to 1 guy only, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Second, saying they play for less offensive minded team then the Oilers is crazy. Also, I've already showed you that defenseman or forward, it doesn't mean that Campbell's stats should obviously have less points and +/- than Eberle because he's a defenseman, because that is wrong, as Mike Green has had 76 points before.
Are you saying that because one defenseman (include Karlsson, Coffey, Orr, etc if you like), let's say a handful of defensemen had huge seasons that that's the norm??? You might want to work out a percentage of dmen compared to forwards who score 75+ points before going down that road!!!
This next one's so good i gotta split it into two separate rebuttals!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Also just because Campbell's team finished higher, doesn't mean they finished higher even partially because of him
Maybe my biggest laugh yet! Unless i've misunderstood this due to my lack of reading skills that you pointed out yesterday, what you're saying here is that Brian Campbell was virtually useless to the Panthers and made no contribution to their season! Awesome! I think that about cements your level of knowledge of the game of hockey. It's basically saying that if Campbell had been abducted by aliens before game 1, the Panthers would be where they are today. He had no bearing on their season whatsoever! Too good......where do you come up with this stuff?
If that wasn't bad enough, we have this.....
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
(Versteeg, Fleischmann, Weiss, Bergenheim, Kopecky, Madden, Samuelsson, Gudbranson, Theodore, all played just as big of role, if not more so in Florida finishing high).
While i could see one saying Fleischmann, Weiss and maybe even Versteeg and Theodore, played bigger roles than Campbell (though even THAT would be very debatable), Gudbranson, Madden, Samuelsson, Bergenheim??? C'mon, you're not serious are you? Do you even realize that Gudbranson is a dman? Yup, his 8 points and -19 really must have added more to the Panthers than what Campbell did! Next your gonna tell me that Nino Niederreiter was more important to the Isles than Moulson!
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Who are you to decide which is more important between penalty kill minutes, power play minutes or even strength minutes? They are all, EQUALLY IMPORTANT!
Yeah, how dare anyone decide what's important for the Lady Byng! We should all know by now that only Slantos is allowed to determine just how the voters decide who's the "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability".
This stuff is awesome slantos, keep up the good work! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 15:10:32
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| If I could virtually high 5 you Alex I would. Dont take this the wrong way was the best icon I could find. All points I wanted bring up. Either way if Eberle wins it I aint gonna go (noooooooo!) that SOB stole a win away from Moulson or Campbell. I actually like Eberle, but I like the other 2 as well. I just haven't developed the man crush Slantos has |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 15:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
If I could virtually high 5 you Alex I would. Dont take this the wrong way was the best icon I could find. All points I wanted bring up. Either way if Eberle wins it I aint gonna go (noooooooo!) that SOB stole a win away from Moulson or Campbell. I actually like Eberle, but I like the other 2 as well. I just haven't developed the man crush Slantos has
Lol, i hear ya. I love Eberle as well and would have absolutely NO COMPLAINT if he does win it. It just simply isn't a foregone conclussion that Slantos seems to think it is. I don't even care if he gets 100% of the votes, it doesn't mean every single voter had trouble deciding, it's just that close!
Maybe admin can add a "high five" emoticon? |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 16:55:17
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I agree refs should vote on this as well, as they of all people would know best, who's the most gentlemanly. But since they don't, stats are the only logical way to judge the winner, and STATISTICALLY Eberle is the most deserving. And from the last 3 winners, it seems like it has been judged on stats, as if you looks at their stats, it looks like there's been a certain similarity of statistics.
I don't care if 1% of D-Men get 75+ points, my point is the other 99% of D-Men could have done it to, get it now?
And seeing as +/- has alot to do with the caliber of team a players on, seeing as both the other nominees were on a better team than Eberle, why is their +/- worse? And Eberle's +/- was better on a worse team? Doesn't that say something about who's playing at "a higher standard of playing ability"?
(+/- was not AS relevant in deciding the last 3 winners as points was, but YES I realize it is and was apart of deciding who's playing at "a higher standard of playing ability")
Also I never said every single one of those players had more of an impact on Florida's success did I? But all as a group... That's what I was getting at anyway.
And I never decided what stats are relevant, just stated the stats that have been most relevant in deciding the past 3 winners of the award.
And common sense says, that there are 3 MAIN stats that should be used to judge the "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability". They are, Points, +/-, and PIM's.. (MAINLY POINTS) If you can think of any other stats that could be used to judge this feel free to let me know.
And do you really consider it a compliment for a defenseman to be called "gentlemanly"? Cuz I sure don't want a "gentlemanly" defenseman on my team... I want a Weber, Chara, Bieksa, Suter, Pronger, Staal, or any defenseman that will go out there and bash someones head in!
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 17:23:09
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Also if your going to say that stats haven't been the only things used to judge the award over the last 4 years... Is it just a HUGE coincidence that the last FOUR winners, have posted better numbers in at least 2/3 of the main relevant categories I've stated?
You'll have a tough time convincing me of that, as I don't believe in coincidences (especially when it's OBVIOUSLY NOT a coincidence)
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 17:28:14
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That's the MAIN reason I think it's a BIG mistake if Eberle losses
JDC |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 18:17:43
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Slantos between all your posts in this thread you have probably wrote a 2000 word essay and have said absolutely nothing. Alex has proven that you contradict yourself and bend STATS to support your argument.
"I don't care if 1% of D-Men get 75+ points, my point is the other 99% of D-Men could have done it to, get it now?"
I really don't understand this argument, by this logic I could say that just because 1% of forwards had over 100 points doesn't mean the other 99% (including Eberle) couldn't have. Do you get it now? A defencemen getting 50 points is equivalent if not better than a forward getting 70points.
"They are, Points, +/-, and PIM's.. (MAINLY POINTS) If you can think of any other stats that could be used to judge this feel free to let me know."
I would say TOI should come into play in this, also weather your team made it to the playoffs should be a factor.
And do you really consider it a compliment for a defenseman to be called "gentlemanly"?
Yes, if my defencemen is effective and dons't take penalties absolutely I would love to have him on my team.
"Also I never said every single one of those players had more of an impact on Florida's success did I?"
Yes you did say that
"Also just because Campbell's team finished higher, doesn't mean they finished higher even partially because of him (Versteeg, Fleischmann, Weiss, Bergenheim, Kopecky, Madden, Samuelsson, Gudbranson, Theodore, all played just as big of role, if not more so in Florida finishing high)"
See where you say "all played just as big of role,if not more so"
This would be like me saying Jones had as much of an impact if not more so in Edmonton having any success, it's just not true.
of Eberle you say :
"(He also would have led 18 other NHL teams in points if he were on them, not just the Oilers)"
How can you know this, Eberle is a good player but wouldn't play the kind of minutes he has played for Edmonton this year if he were on another team, in fact had he been drafted by another team he may not even be in the NHL yet(or maybe this would be his rookie season). Do you think Eberle would lead Boston is scoring because he got more points then anyone on that team? He probably wouldn't even crack their top six.
"And yes, I was only stating stats from the last 3 years, because if Eberle doesn't win it will be as big of mistake, as if one of the previous 3 winners had not won.. As their stats are extremely similar, that's the point I was trying to get across."
2008-2009
Datsyuk: 81GP, 97P, +34, 22PIM
2009-2010
St. Louis: 82GP, 94P, -8, 12PIM
2010-2011
St. Louis: 82GP, 99P, +0, 12 PIM
2011-2012
Eberle: 78GP, 76P, +4, 10PIM
Eberle has 20 points less than previous winners, how is that "extremely similar"
SLANTOS- could you please just acknowledge that no one is saying Eberle shouldn't win, they are just saying that if one of the others wins they are as deserving and it wouldn't be "the biggest mistake in the history if the award''
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 18:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
I agree refs should vote on this as well, as they of all people would know best, who's the most gentlemanly.
Man, i got this far (yup, one whole sentence in) and thought you weren't gonna go on repeating all the same garbage you've been spewing.........then i kept reading. 
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
But since they don't, stats are the only logical way to judge the winner, and STATISTICALLY Eberle is the most deserving. And from the last 3 winners, it seems like it has been judged on stats, as if you looks at their stats, it looks like there's been a certain similarity of statistics.
Lol, read that again. Talk about being repetetive! I think we get what you are saying. We've heard all about the last 3 winners and their stats! We've also witnessed you flip flop about the value of +/- and spin things to support your opinion over and over again. It's all right here in the thread! Know what you should do.....a little more research. Go back and look at the past 40 winners to get a little better sample of the award. Please supply us with all three finalists, their PTS totals, GP, PIMs, +/-, TOI and maybe even some other interesting tidbits you're sure to find. Then, report back to us your findings so we can make a better judgement. Please take your time......
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
I don't care if 1% of D-Men get 75+ points, my point is the other 99% of D-Men could have done it to, get it now?
Yeah, and goalies should outscore everyone cuz they get more ice time! Give your head a shake, you're really making yourself look more silly with each and every ridiculous comment like this one above.
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Also I never said every single one of those players had more of an impact on Florida's success did I? But all as a group... That's what I was getting at anyway.
Oh brother, here we go again. I call you out for a foolish comment, and now you're giving it the patented "Slantos Spin" to try to make it seem as though you meant something entirely different. Nice try! It's almost worse, what you're saying now! Really, you think that a group of 9 starters might have played a little larger role than 1 guy? Uh yeah, thanks for letting us in on that big secret. Keep up the good work!
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
And I never decided what stats are relevant, just stated the stats that have been most relevant in deciding the past 3 winners of the award.
And common sense says, that there are 3 MAIN stats that should be used to judge the "player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability". They are, Points, +/-, and PIM's.. (MAINLY POINTS) If you can think of any other stats that could be used to judge this feel free to let me know.
Really? You don't think that members of the "Professional Hockey Writers Association" are perhaps capable of looking at the whole picture? Maybe looking at time on ice, blocked shots, PP/PK time, time played in important situations, etc, etc. I'm not saying that some don't simply look at points and PIMs and throw their vote in that way for such a low profile award, but i bet some actually take the responsibility to look at the entire package.
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
And do you really consider it a compliment for a defenseman to be called "gentlemanly"?
Uh, did i miss something? Did i say i consider it a compliment? Do i care who wins this award? NO, NO, and NO! This is completely irrelavent to what we've been talking about. I'm not sure why you even brought this up? Please, spare us an explanation.
BTW Slantos.....you might wanna get ahold of this guy (link below). He's already cast his vote (as have all the voters) and you may wanna send him the link to this thread so he knows he's possibly contributing to making the "biggest mistake in the history of the award"!
http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/award-winners-why-191800441--nhl.html
Happy reading!  |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 18:40:57
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I love how you addressed everything I said but this:
Is it just a HUGE coincidence that the last FOUR winners, have posted better numbers in at least 2/3 of the main statistical categories that have been used to crown a winner?
JDC |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 20:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
I love how you addressed everything I said but this:
Is it just a HUGE coincidence that the last FOUR winners, have posted better numbers in at least 2/3 of the main statistical categories that have been used to crown a winner?
JDC
I love how you've addressed NOTHING either me or Alex said, you just keep saying the same stuff.
If you read Alex's last comment he does comment on that question.
Yes maybe it is a HUGE coincidence.
Did you know both St.louis and Datsyuk shoot left handed so there NO WAY a righty like Eberle could win the award...I mean in ALL THE PAST 3 SEASON the award has went to A LEFTY so to choose a RIGHTY would be just plain NUTS!
by the way I also responded to your question in my last post, you know the part where I point out that even though Eberle has 2/3 stats he has 20 less points then all the previous winners, so how is this guy a shoe in?
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/24/2012 : 22:18:44
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Clatts, i didn't realize you were typing up an epic response around the same time as me! It's pretty easy isn't it.
Having said that, i don't think i actually responded to the one part Slantos is now trying to hang onto.....
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
I love how you addressed everything I said but this:
Is it just a HUGE coincidence that the last FOUR winners, have posted better numbers in at least 2/3 of the main statistical categories that have been used to crown a winner?
Truth is, i didn't even notice this as it wasn't part of the post i responded to. However, i find it ironic that you bring this up and totally ignored the huge rant/post you put up that was completely squashed! First, it's possible it's a coincidence, whether you believe in them or no, but it's also noted that you supplied yet another claim that you pulled outta your you know what! Remember a few days ago when +/- didn't matter much cuz it's a stat the relies on team play? Yeah, like points don't. I suppose Jonathan Cheechoo would have had 56 goals in '06 without Joe Thornton and his other team mates huh? Now it's one of your 3 main criteria for the award.
Here's another great article i found while looking into some of the past winners vs nominees. http://www.aolnews.com/2009/04/24/lady-byng-nominees-announced/
Interesting point about Iginla being mentioned and i actually agree with the guy's point. Iggy is just an example and i don't think he should necessarily win, but from everything i've seen from the guy, he's a good sport, a polite guy and one of the classiest guys i've ever witnessed play the game (though that's another topic all together). Point is, even PIM's shouldn't be the be all end all. Go ahead Slantos, throw this back at me and say "this further proves my point, it doesn't matter that Campbell only had 10 PIMs......", why, because that's exactly what you do. You don't "get it" and prob never will so you angle things to make you think your convincing others of your madness!
Bottom line is, low penalty mins should be considered for sure. But does that mean Eberle's 10pims were better for the award than 12 from Eriksson? What if all 12 of Eriksson's were "good penalties" that bailed out his d or goalie and saved a goal. These do exist you know! And maybe Eb's 5 minors were all for retaliation where he slashed someone? *Warning, warning, this is hypothetical Slantos, hopefully unlike coincidences, you do believe in hypothetical examples?
Points should be considered too, but also not the be all end all. If a guy like Dave Bolland played a shut down roll all year, while putting up 65 points and 6 PIMs, that'd be incredible and would be better than a 90 point 10PIM season from a forward like St. Louis imo.
Lastly, to judge a guy's season as far as hockey goes, his role and all his stats should be considered. GP, PTS, +/-, TOI, blocked shots, etc..... |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 05:59:39
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Truth is, i 'didn't even notice this as it wasn't part of the post i responded to. However, i find it ironic that you bring this up and totally ignored the huge rant/post you put up that was completely squashed! First, it's possible it's a coincidence, whether you believe in them or no, but it's also noted that you supplied yet another claim that you pulled outta your you know what! Remember a few days ago when +/- didn't matter much cuz it's a stat the relies on team play? Yeah, like points don't. I suppose Jonathan Cheechoo would have had 56 goals in '06 without Joe Thornton and his other team mates huh? Now it's one of your 3 main criteria for the award.
First, my rant wasn't completely squashed, i just don't feel like addressing someone who doesn't listen. I'll address every one of your questions AGAIN. I do believe in coincidences, just not 4 IN A ROW. As for this +/- statement, I've already stated, since doing my research on the past 4 nominees and winners, I REALIZE NOW, IT IS APART OF DECIDING THE WINNER. But obviously as the past 4 winners will show you, it doesn't carry as much weight in deciding the winner as much as points. Also yes I realize points and +/- are effected by the team as well (did I ever say points weren't? No, so stop trying to make it sound like I did) But again as the past 4 winners will show you, (in +/- and points) that has nothing to do with how much those stats weigh in deciding the winner of the award. And again, that's not MY main 3 criteria for the award. it's the MAIN 3 criteria that have been used to decide the last 4 winners.
Here's another great article i found while looking into some of the past winners vs nominees. http://www.aolnews.com/2009/04/24/lady-byng-nominees-announced/
Interesting point about Iginla being mentioned and i actually agree with the guy's point. Iggy is just an example and i don't think he should necessarily win, but from everything i've seen from the guy, he's a good sport, a polite guy and one of the classiest guys i've ever witnessed play the game (though that's another topic all together). Point is, even PIM's shouldn't be the be all end all. Go ahead Slantos, throw this back at me and say "this further proves my point, it doesn't matter that Campbell only had 10 PIMs......", why, because that's exactly what you do. You don't "get it" and prob never will so you angle things to make you think your convincing others of your madness!
I've already addressed this, and I agree with it, because again, as the past 4 winners will show you, PIM SHOULD NOT and HAVE NOT, been the be all and end all in this award. Is that throwing it back in your face? No it's agreeing with you.
Bottom line is, low penalty mins should be considered for sure. But does that mean Eberle's 10pims were better for the award than 12 from Eriksson? What if all 12 of Eriksson's were "good penalties" that bailed out his d or goalie and saved a goal. These do exist you know! And maybe Eb's 5 minors were all for retaliation where he slashed someone? *Warning, warning, this is hypothetical Slantos, hopefully unlike coincidences, you do believe in hypothetical examples?
I'm not saying Eberle's 10 PIM were better PIM for the award than Eriksson's, but unless the type of penalties they take are supplied for the voters, they will only see and take into account that it's 10PIM vs. 12 PIM.
I believe your correct on this, as the type of penalties they take should have weight on this award as well, but unless the type of PIM are supplied to voters, it obviously does NOT.
Points should be considered too, but also not the be all end all. If a guy like Dave Bolland played a shut down roll all year, while putting up 65 points and 6 PIMs, that'd be incredible and would be better than a 90 point 10PIM season from a forward like St. Louis imo.
See I half agree with this statement, points SHOULD NOT BE THE BE ALL AND END ALL. But again as the past 4 winners will show you, points obviously carry the MOST WEIGHT(not 100% of it, but MOST OF IT) And IMO, I don't think it'd be better, but maybe just as good. And obviously the people who decide on the nominees don't think those type of players should be nominated either. (or maybe those type of players just haven't put up those type of stats)
Lastly, to judge a guy's season as far as hockey goes, his role and all his stats should be considered. GP, PTS, +/-, TOI, blocked shots, etc.....
If you believe ALL stats "SHOULD" be considered to judge a players season, you have a right to do so. But REALIZE, FOR THIS AWARD, as the last 4 winners of the award will show you, either all the other stats haven't been considered, or they just simply don't pull AS MUCH weight in deciding the winner of the award as points, +/-, and penalty minutes do. Which obviously all pull different weight from each other as well. AGAIN AS THE PAST 4 WINNERS WILL SHOW YOU, POINTS OBVIOUSLY PULL THE MOST WEIGHT
JDC |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 07:39:30
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Read this.....
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
[br Is it just a HUGE coincidence that the last FOUR winners, have posted better numbers in at least 2/3 of the main relevant categories I've stated?
You'll have a tough time convincing me of that, as I don't believe in coincidences (especially when it's OBVIOUSLY NOT a coincidence)
Now, read this.....
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
I do believe in coincidences, just not 4 IN A ROW.
This is exactly what you've been doing this entire thread. Saying one thing, then changing what you said to suit your argument. It's hilarious that you continue to do this. Read through this thread and it's riddled with "Slantos spins".
As much fun as this has been, i'm done with you. One last time, not that it's gonna register with you all of a sudden, but anyway......Eberle is deserving of the award, maybe even the most deserving? Personally i think Campbell "should" win. BUT, not matter what, if Eberle doesn't win, IT WILL NOT BE, "the biggest mistake in the history of the award". THAT, is what you've completely FAILED to prove to anyone.
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 10:42:15
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This is exactly what you've been doing this entire thread. Saying one thing, then changing what you said to suit your argument. It's hilarious that you continue to do this. Read through this thread and it's riddled with "Slantos spins".
Haha your hilarious, all YOU do is try to find contradictory statements I've made.. Instead of try to back your argument, and find relevant stats why you think Campbell "should" win.
As much fun as this has been, i'm done with you. One last time, not that it's gonna register with you all of a sudden, but anyway......Eberle is deserving of the award, MAYBE EVEN THE MOST DESERVING? Personally i think Campbell "should" win. BUT, not matter what, if Eberle doesn't win, IT WILL NOT BE, "the biggest mistake in the history of the award". THAT, is what you've completely FAILED to prove to anyone.
If you now believe Eberle is most deserving, my job is finished.
Also seeing as Eberle is STATISTICALLY as deserving as the LAST 4 WINNERS, that's the POINT I was trying to get across. And it would be as big of a joke, as if one of the previous 4 winners, who posted the most relevant stats, had not won.
Also if you think TOI and blocked shots should be included in this award you are nuts (i realize you didn't say that, but you hinted at it) As those stats have nothing to do with playing "with a high standard of play" and definitely have nothing to do with being the most "gentlemanly".
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 12:34:57
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Also seeing as Eberle is STATISTICALLY as deserving as the LAST 4 WINNERS, that's the POINT I was trying to get across. And it would be as big of a joke, as if one of the previous 4 winners, who posted the most relevant stats, had not
Yes I'm biased, but have I not given valid points and good enough stats of previous winners and of the current nominees, for that statement?
JDC |
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 12:57:19
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| slantos i only have one question for you? why won't you let this thread die. its as boring as the kessel trade thread and that was 8 pages long dear god....... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 13:01:38
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quote:
Originally posted by mandree888
slantos i only have one question for you? why won't you let this thread die. its as boring as the kessel trade thread and that was 8 pages long dear god.......
Sorry mandree, but that implies past tense. As far as i know, the Kessel trade thread is still alive, unfortunately, and will continue to grow. |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 13:38:18
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Ok, I guess as far as arguments against Eberle winning go, this thread IS over..
And Brian Campbell MIGHT win, but I wouldn't want him on the Oilers as he's to expensive, he's a - player (as a defenseman that HORRIBLE), and he's not doing his job as a defenseman if he won't be gritty toward the opposition. Ask any forward in the league who they'd rather go up against, a guy like Bieksa who's willing to cross check them, punch them, slash them, or simply do ANYTHING to make them think twice about charging the net, and to throw them off their game, or a guy like Campbell, who won't do any of the above. I'm SURE their answer would be simple.
JDC |
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mandree888
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
400 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 13:45:08
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quote:
Sorry mandree, but that implies past tense. As far as i know, the Kessel trade thread is still alive, unfortunately, and will continue to grow.
it was hope alex..... it was hope.......thank you for crushing it rofl |
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Clatts
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
266 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 16:55:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Ok, I guess as far as arguments against Eberle winning go, this thread IS over..
And Brian Campbell MIGHT win, but I wouldn't want him on the Oilers as he's to expensive, he's a - player (as a defenseman that HORRIBLE), and he's not doing his job as a defenseman if he won't be gritty toward the opposition. Ask any forward in the league who they'd rather go up against, a guy like Bieksa who's willing to cross check them, punch them, slash them, or simply do ANYTHING to make them think twice about charging the net, and to throw them off their game, or a guy like Campbell, who won't do any of the above. I'm SURE their answer would be simple.
JDC
Nicklas Lidstrom has never had more than 50 PIMS in a season and has averaged 25 PIMS per season...so you probably wouldn't want him on your team.
"Most of the guys that wear them are Europeans and French Guys."
Don Cherry on Visors |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 18:04:53
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quote:
Originally posted by mandree888
quote:
Sorry mandree, but that implies past tense. As far as i know, the Kessel trade thread is still alive, unfortunately, and will continue to grow.
it was hope alex..... it was hope.......thank you for crushing it rofl
Think nothing of it . Come to think of it, maybe i'll go post in it to bring it back to the front page. j/k..... |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2012 : 20:31:04
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Lidstrom is a + player, who does what it takes to win. That includes doing the gritty stuff. I would gladly take him on my team.
JDC |
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 07:36:54
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Are you really trying to compare Lidstrom to Brian Campbell? ARE YOU HIGH???? Lidstroms closests comparable year statistically to Campbell's this year, he had 57 points, was a +14, and had 14 PIM (still not a - player). His lowest +/- came extremely late in his career, and he was still only a -2, other than that year, he had NEVER been a - player. Yes +/- was effected by his team, but he was the player on that team that was playing the majority of the TOI, ALMOST HIS WHOLE CAREER!!!
JDC |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 07:57:08
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But not Brian Campbell who based on stats had a better year and more deserving this year for the Lady Bing award. You are unable to comprehend an arguement unless it suits your opinion aren't you. +/- is based on overall team play and no person here is gonna argue Florida has a lower overall +/- than Detroit. Plus +/- is probably the hardest stat to equate in this scenerio as one player might have a role to be sent out against the other teams best players and the other could be used primarily in offense situations.
Lidstrom had 34 points, 21 penalty minutes and +21
Campbell had 53 points, 6 penalty minutes and -9
Based on those numbers and the fact that Campbell is on a team which has an overall lower +/-, I'd take Campbell this year over Lindstrom based on the 2/3 stat performance advantage you chose to put such importance on for this award.
Those stats are not the only factor when choosing the Lady Bing or to measure the importance of a players high standard or play and value to his team. TOI which has Campbell averaging 25+ minutes per game and he is usually on the ice during the most important times. Eberle whom I believe is a deserving candidate averages 18 minutes of play. You can argue who is on the ice during the most important points in the game but the simple fact is Campbell plays just under 1/2 the game and Eberle see less than 1/3. While spending more than 7 minutes per game over an 82 game season, the guy who spent more time on the ice and in a defensive role manage to receive lower penalty minutes. Based on an award for sportsmanship and high level of play Campbell deserves high consideration.
quote:
Originally posted by Slantos
Lidstrom is a + player, who does what it takes to win. That includes doing the gritty stuff. I would gladly take him on my team.
JDC
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Slantos
Top Prospect
Canada
35 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2012 : 16:31:50
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First off, I never said Lidstrom was more deserving for the Lady Byng than Campbell, I simply said I'd prefer to have him on my team rather than Campbell, as he's willing to do the gritty stuff, willing to do what it takes to win, he's a + player, and Campbell is not.
2nd. For those who'll argue that Campbell SHOULD win over Eberle, or is as deserving as Eberle, I'd LOOOVE to here your arguments after you read my next post.
JDC |
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2011/12 Lady Bing 
