Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Search
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?
 All Forums
 Hockey Forums
Allow Anonymous Posting forum... General Hockey Chat
 Alain Vigneault - Rangers is that a match Allow Anonymous Users Reply to This Topic...
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Guest4674
( )

Posted - 06/16/2013 :  00:16:47  Reply with Quote
Alain Vigneault has an agreement to be the next head coach of the New York Rangers.

Is this a match made in heaven.??

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  09:27:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well the Rangers are a tough defensive team, good offensive potential, with a good goaltender, so this is a lot like Vancouver, but I dont see a culture change in New York with AV. He is less vocal than Torts and wont be calling out or benching players on hunches like Torts did. Maybe this is a message to the team that management has faith in them to play and they dont want a coach screaming the message to them.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

Guest2697
( )

Posted - 06/17/2013 :  16:57:45  Reply with Quote
so now NY can underachieve with a new coach
Go to Top of Page

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  06:12:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is a perfect situation for me to either tell all those Canucks fans "I told you so" or vise versa. One of two things will happen. The first thing is the Rangers become a very good, dare say a great, regular season team only to fold in the playoffs with mostly undisciplined play. In that case, I say I told you so all the way. In the other case, the Rangers become a better team and see playoff success (meaning ECF, Cup Finals, or Cup Winners) and the Canucks fans can say I told you so to me.

I don't believe that coaches change their stripes. In most cases, coaches are prideful to a fault and don't ever give up on their systems or styles. In some ways that is what makes some coaches successful anywhere they go (Quinville, Hitchcock) while in other cases it is the bane of their existance (Boudreau, Maurice, Tortorella).

I think AV is in the second group. He's a solid coach and good communicator but he doesn't know how to keep his team out of the penalty box. More importantly, he gets consistently outcoached in the playoffs.

The Rangers made a really great lateral move. If their goal was to have a coach who the media will like more but will have the same performance on the ice; mission successful.

Time will tell..........

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  13:34:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't know if Vancouver has all the parts and pieces New York has. New York is younger, bigger and tougher than Vancouver is and aside from the Sedin's and Kessel, New York has more skilled players. I think Tort's shot blocking, tight defensive system, was maybe a little too tight and limited offensive creativity. I think AV will find success here. At the very least if he doesn't find success, we can label it clearly the coach and not the roster.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  14:27:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I don't know if Vancouver has all the parts and pieces New York has. New York is younger, bigger and tougher than Vancouver is and aside from the Sedin's and Kessel, New York has more skilled players. I think Tort's shot blocking, tight defensive system, was maybe a little too tight and limited offensive creativity. I think AV will find success here. At the very least if he doesn't find success, we can label it clearly the coach and not the roster.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Oh, wow. I can't disagree more. The Rangers might look ok in some spots but I think a top 6 of Richards, Nash, and???? compared to the Sedins, Burrows (threw up in my mouth), Kessler, Booth is no contest. I would also say that NY might have greater skill at the top of their defensive group but as a whole, Vancouver's top 6 are as good or better than anyone. NY does have Vancouver in goaltending.

However, one thing Vancouver will certainly have over NY is coaching. I don't even know who the coach of the Canucks is but I know he is better than Vigneault.

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  15:56:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I don't know if Vancouver has all the parts and pieces New York has. New York is younger, bigger and tougher than Vancouver is and aside from the Sedin's and Kessel, New York has more skilled players. I think Tort's shot blocking, tight defensive system, was maybe a little too tight and limited offensive creativity. I think AV will find success here. At the very least if he doesn't find success, we can label it clearly the coach and not the roster.


Why is it that we can then label it the coach? No one else has seemed to have been able to have a lot of success with the Rangers in the past 15 years!!! They're often at or near the top of peoples projections at the beginning of the season, yet never seem to live up to the expectations? So, if AV fails, it's "not the roster"??? Please explain......

I agree Beans, if it's undisciplined play that costs the Rangers, i'll admit you were correct. IF they fail due to a PP disappearing or simply lacklustre play, that's a little more debatable. Sure, that can also be blamed on coaching, but you've been adamant that the penalties and undiscipled play that AV "allowed" or tolerated here is what's cost the Canucks a lot of success. My best guess is, with the Rangers, he finds less questionable calls go against his team!
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  16:04:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nash Richards and Stephan are close in quality to Vancouvers top 3. After the Sedins and Kessler the talent pool in Vancouver is not deep. I see your Booth and Burrows and raise you Clowe, Callahan, Haglin, Brassard, Staal and Kreider whom I think has great potential. Hell 3rd in scoring this year due to Kesslers injury was Hansen. There just isn't as deep an offensive potential in Vancouver as in New York. I think AV has found a deep well he hasn't had experience dealing with before and could do well.

I think this is a case of you not seeing New York in action as much as the Canucks, whom of which make you regurgitate in your mouth. I watch the Rangers play regularly in the East and think they are more talented than how they ended up last year. I think Torts moving on was great news for this franchise and AV may see greater success next year than Torts did last year. Time will tell.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/18/2013 :  16:09:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is there any East coast fans here who would say they would prefer the Canucks forwards to the Rangers. My guess would be, hell no! Remember I am an Ottawa fan living in Edmonton. I am a hockey fan first and watch an equal amount of east/west games.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  00:17:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joshua.....first off, keep in mind i picked the Rangers in Jan to be in the final. I'm not debating their talent. THAT, is where i have the problem though. How is it that the Rangers always seem to have a top team on paper, yet get no results? Can you really blame the coach? Heck, they've fired 5 in the past 6 or 7 years and it doesn't seem to have worked!!!

You say you think the Rangers are more talented than they ended up last year? So, are you putting this on the coaching then?

I just don't understand that comment you made in regards to putting the blame for failure on AV rather than the roster? If no coach with a similar roster has had success, why is it suddenly AV's fault if he fails as well???? Maybe, just maybe, it IS the roster???
Go to Top of Page

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  06:43:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Couple of things:

Firstly, Joshua I will take the proven players in Vancouver over the potential players in New York. Also, I'm not sure if you were saying Staal was a forward or not but that's kind of how it came across. Finally, I think you are grossly undervaluing the Canuck players. Granted they are on the unhappy side of 30. But I don't think there is another team in the NHL that has 2 Art Ross Winners and a perennial Selke nominee in their top 6 except for maybe Pittsburgh. But they traded their Selke guy to Carolina.

I watch more than enough Rangers game (10+ a year) to know what's what. If you honestly think Stephan/Nash/Richards is comparable to Sedin/Sedin/Burrow (gross), I will stop arguing because it's pointless. I'll give you one tidbit of fact and I would appreciate your feedback. Henrik has more points in the past 5 years than anyone not named Alex Ovechkin and has 44 more assists than any other player in that span. Can NY say anything close to the same about any of their best players??


Alex : Like I proven to Nux in another thread, NY has only been a 'favorite' once in the past 5 seasons. Otherwise, they finish in the middle of the pack more often than not. Take a look and see for yourself.


Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  08:41:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can skew facts to suit an arguement as well my friend. Whereas the Sedins have in the past 5 years amassed more points than the 3 I suggested, last year 2012/2013 numbers are 44, 40, 24 by the Vancouver trio and 44, 42, 34 by the New York trio. Thats a 12 point advantage to New York playing in front of a tight defensive core which stiffles offense. I am not saying Sedins+Burrows or Kesler bad, Nash+Richards+Stephan good, I am saying similar and the depth behind them in New York is better than the depth in Vancouver.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  09:23:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I can skew facts to suit an arguement as well my friend. Whereas the Sedins have in the past 5 years amassed more points than the 3 I suggested, last year 2012/2013 numbers are 44, 40, 24 by the Vancouver trio and 44, 42, 34 by the New York trio. Thats a 12 point advantage to New York playing in front of a tight defensive core which stiffles offense. I am not saying Sedins+Burrows or Kesler bad, Nash+Richards+Stephan good, I am saying similar and the depth behind them in New York is better than the depth in Vancouver.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Good point. let me ask you how else scores in NY other than their top line?? Compare production for the entire team before you start talking about 'depth behind them.'

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  13:45:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why am I doing all the work to prove your wrong! Here are 3 links to show you depth of scoring for both teams and head to head for goals per game. Vancouver is behind them in goals for top 3 and goals per team. Just say you dont know much about New York, rather than be rude and disagree without actually checking for yourself.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?season=20122013&gameType=2&team=NYR&position=S&country=&status=&viewName=summary

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?season=20122013&gameType=2&team=VAN&position=S&country=&status=&viewName=summary

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20132ALLSAAALL&sort=avgGoalsPerGame&viewName=summary



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  15:32:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Alex : Like I proven to Nux in another thread, NY has only been a 'favorite' once in the past 5 seasons. Otherwise, they finish in the middle of the pack more often than not. Take a look and see for yourself.



Beans, i believe i actually agreed/supported your claim in that other thread. However, i'm talking preseason rankings/predictions. The Rangers have failed to live up to a lot of preseason hype over the past 5 years! Yes, going into the playoffs they've not been a favorite, however "on paper", they've often been a top 5 pick for the cup over the past number of years!

My entire point on that though was just regarding Joshua saying the blame would be on AV if the Rangers fail and not the roster. Why, if multiple coaches before have failed with a similar roster, is it the coach? Is it just on motivating the troops? Or maybe it's the mix of players there? Who knows anyway, they're likely to make some changes and Nash is still relatively new there. Add in a really good developing guy like Stepan, some youngsters in Hagelin and Kreider who may make the next step in their game plus whatever happens with Richards and i think we'll see a bit of a different look. It's going to be interesting to see what sort of "mark" AV puts on this club.
Go to Top of Page

The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/19/2013 :  21:34:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don`t think AV will excel in NY.....i bet they miss the playoffs next season, although they do have Lundquist. guess its hard to miss the playoffs with him in net...lol

AV seems to come off rather soft as a coach to me....not hard enough on his players....maybe i`m wrong but thats my opinion of him.

As for Van`s and the NYR`s team offense....i`d say Van`s was much better over the last 5 - 6 seasons over-all, but not anymore, seems like the Sedins have dried up some what.

To me the NYR`s are an average NHL team with stellar goal - tending.
Go to Top of Page

Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8186 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  09:05:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

Why am I doing all the work to prove your wrong! Here are 3 links to show you depth of scoring for both teams and head to head for goals per game. Vancouver is behind them in goals for top 3 and goals per team. Just say you dont know much about New York, rather than be rude and disagree without actually checking for yourself.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?season=20122013&gameType=2&team=NYR&position=S&country=&status=&viewName=summary

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?season=20122013&gameType=2&team=VAN&position=S&country=&status=&viewName=summary

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm?fetchKey=20132ALLSAAALL&sort=avgGoalsPerGame&viewName=summary



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "



Or, you can miss the point completely and realize I was speaking about a bigger sample than the 48 games last season.

But, whatever. You want to say that NY scored better than Van over the last 50 games, cool. You proved your point

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

Go to Top of Page

nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3590 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  09:30:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

AV seems to come off rather soft as a coach to me....not hard enough on his players....maybe i`m wrong but thats my opinion of him.




Thats only because you don't see him in the media scrums throwing his players under the bus whenever they miss a pass or have a bad line change. He has only done that a couple of times in his time with VAN, it is not his style.

There is tactful performance management... and then there is the Torts way of managing performance. I don't doubt for a minute that AV holds his players accountable inside the room.
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  14:10:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Alex : Like I proven to Nux in another thread, NY has only been a 'favorite' once in the past 5 seasons. Otherwise, they finish in the middle of the pack more often than not. Take a look and see for yourself.



Beans, i believe i actually agreed/supported your claim in that other thread. However, i'm talking preseason rankings/predictions. The Rangers have failed to live up to a lot of preseason hype over the past 5 years! Yes, going into the playoffs they've not been a favorite, however "on paper", they've often been a top 5 pick for the cup over the past number of years!

My entire point on that though was just regarding Joshua saying the blame would be on AV if the Rangers fail and not the roster. Why, if multiple coaches before have failed with a similar roster, is it the coach? Is it just on motivating the troops? Or maybe it's the mix of players there? Who knows anyway, they're likely to make some changes and Nash is still relatively new there. Add in a really good developing guy like Stepan, some youngsters in Hagelin and Kreider who may make the next step in their game plus whatever happens with Richards and i think we'll see a bit of a different look. It's going to be interesting to see what sort of "mark" AV puts on this club.



I think you misunderstood me. I actually think AV is a good thing for New York, especially during the season and with the wealth of talent New York has he may find good post season success. If he doesn't you can compare his coaching vs Torts and we can then say which was more effective for New Yorks roster. I dont dislike AV and I do dislike Tort's. Thats just my opinion, not based on which has a better coaching style, I just don't like Tort's personally.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  14:22:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Or, you can miss the point completely and realize I was speaking about a bigger sample than the 48 games last season.

But, whatever. You want to say that NY scored better than Van over the last 50 games, cool. You proved your point


What I think you are not understanding is I am talking about the present talent and future ability of these 2 teams, not the accolade's of Vancouver and there roster from a few years ago. If you need me to spell it out again, now and the upcoming season moving forward not backwards, with the rosters as they are now, the Rangers have more offensive scoring depth than Vancouver. If you disagree fine, but don't be rude about it.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  15:09:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Yes, going into the playoffs they've not been a favorite, however "on paper", they've often been a top 5 pick for the cup over the past number of years!

My entire point on that though was just regarding Joshua saying the blame would be on AV if the Rangers fail and not the roster. Why, if multiple coaches before have failed with a similar roster, is it the coach? Is it just on motivating the troops? Or maybe it's the mix of players there?



Yeah. Good points. There is no doubting the talent the Rangers have held since Slats took over as GM. Good enough on paper to go deep, but, can Sather figure out the right mix?

Glen Sather famously claimed in the early 90's that he could build a greater dynasty than he 80's Oilers if he was able to spend what he wanted. He got the chance before the cap came in and failed (save that one cup, the rest have been abject failures). Maybe, he is doing a bit better, but still on the outside looking in.

I honestly thought Torts would be a perfect fit on Broadway, but obviously he was not.

Glen Sather should be on the hotseat right now. Nobody else.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
Go to Top of Page

Guest5052
( )

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  15:12:11  Reply with Quote
First and Foremost, I think dissecting teams can be misleading. In other words, comparing lines or individuals doesnt always tell the story. I strongly believe in team cultures (for want of a better word).

Second I agree that AV is on teh hot seat in NY, but failure to reach the semis doesnt define him as a good or bad coach. Not if wer're talking about 2 or 3 years.

And I do agree that Van has been a better team than NYR for say at least the past 5 years, but if I had to guess, Id suggest the Ranger have a better chance of getting to the finals than Van does in teh next few years. I fear that the Canucks are on a decline, although a new coach may prove me wrong.
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  15:26:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO

quote:
Originally posted by Alex116

Yes, going into the playoffs they've not been a favorite, however "on paper", they've often been a top 5 pick for the cup over the past number of years!

My entire point on that though was just regarding Joshua saying the blame would be on AV if the Rangers fail and not the roster. Why, if multiple coaches before have failed with a similar roster, is it the coach? Is it just on motivating the troops? Or maybe it's the mix of players there?



Yeah. Good points. There is no doubting the talent the Rangers have held since Slats took over as GM. Good enough on paper to go deep, but, can Sather figure out the right mix?

Glen Sather famously claimed in the early 90's that he could build a greater dynasty than he 80's Oilers if he was able to spend what he wanted. He got the chance before the cap came in and failed (save that one cup, the rest have been abject failures). Maybe, he is doing a bit better, but still on the outside looking in.

I honestly thought Torts would be a perfect fit on Broadway, but obviously he was not.

Glen Sather should be on the hotseat right now. Nobody else.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.

I think Torts wasn't suited well for the talent in New York. I think he took his talent and put them in a shutdown shotblocking role, which to his credit, the team bought into, but guys like Gaborik and Nash are creative players he has stiffled with that type of style. I am surprised Kovalchuk in New Jersey found decent success in 2011/2012 as he is in the same situation.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
Go to Top of Page

OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  15:49:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
He did find success with a talent-laden Tampa team. Just didn't translate well to NYR, I guess. Wouldn't want him coaching my team, but there probably is a spot for him somewhere.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
Go to Top of Page

JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1903 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  16:16:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO

He did find success with a talent-laden Tampa team. Just didn't translate well to NYR, I guess. Wouldn't want him coaching my team, but there probably is a spot for him somewhere.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.

I know I thought of that too. Torts in Tampa during there cup win is the one bright spot on an otherwise ok coaching career. I think if Richards hadn't played MVP like that year, Torts doesn't make the final. Maybe thats why he was so upset Richards could repeat this year. Whatever playoff magic Richards had then was lacking this year. Lecavelier, St Louis, Habby, Stillman, Andreychuk and Richards played amazing.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 06/20/2013 16:19:23
Go to Top of Page

Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5800 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2013 :  22:05:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest5052

First and Foremost, I think dissecting teams can be misleading. In other words, comparing lines or individuals doesnt always tell the story. I strongly believe in team cultures (for want of a better word).

Second I agree that AV is on teh hot seat in NY, but failure to reach the semis doesnt define him as a good or bad coach. Not if wer're talking about 2 or 3 years.

And I do agree that Van has been a better team than NYR for say at least the past 5 years, but if I had to guess, Id suggest the Ranger have a better chance of getting to the finals than Van does in teh next few years. I fear that the Canucks are on a decline, although a new coach may prove me wrong.



Guest 5052...... Some really good, well written posts lately. You should consider signing up / registering so we can put a name and avatar to your posts.

I too fear that the Canucks are on a decline, though you likely "fear" it as more of a thought. I "fear" it as a diehard "non-car torching" Canucks fan.
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
Jump To:
Snitz Forums 2000 Go To Top Of Page