| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2015 : 23:49:06
|
I have figured out how many goals, assists and points each player averaged to each season according to their yearly performance for if they played for 17 seasons which is what Lemieux played to todays standards of 82 games. for example Greztkys first NHL season in 79 games he scored 51 goals and had 86 assists. my formula 51/79x82 = 53 goals, 86/79x82= 89 assists for 142 Points in 82 games. Lemieuxs 1st season in 73 games he scored 43 goal and had 57 assists. again my formula 43/73x82= 48 goals, 57/73x82= 64 assists for 112 Points in 82 games. i did this for ever year for 17 seasons.
here is the outcome.
Season 1: Gretzky 53, 89, 142. Lemieux 48, 64, 112
Season 2: Gretzky 56, 112, 168. Lemieux 50, 97, 147
Season 3: Gretzky 94, 123, 217. Lemieux 70, 69, 139
Season 4: Gretzky 73, 128, 201. Lemieux 75, 104, 179
Season 5: Gretzky 96, 131, 227. Lemieux 92, 123, 215
Season 6: Gretzky 75, 138, 213. Lemieux 62, 108, 170
Season 7: Gretzky 53, 167, 220. Lemieux 60, 82, 142
Season 8: Gretzky 64, 126, 190. Lemieux 56, 111, 167
Season 9: Lemieux 94, 124, 218. Gretzky 51, 140, 191
Season 10: Gretzky 57, 120, 177. Lemieux 63, 75, 138
Season 11: Lemieux 81,108, 189. Gretzky 45, 115, 160
Season 12: Gretzky 43, 128, 171. Lemieux 54, 78, 132
Season 13: Lemieux 67, 78, 145, Gretzky 34, 100, 134
Season 14: Gretzky 29, 89, 118, Lemieux 21, 85, 106
Season 15: Gretzky 38, 93, 131, Lemieux 34, 77, 111
Season 16: Gretzky 19, 63, 82, Lemieux 8, 66, 74
Season 17: Gretzky 23, 81, 104, Lemieux 22, 47, 69
Games played: Gretzky and Lemieux both with 1394 (17 seasons at 82 games)
Goals: Lemieux 957, Gretzky 903
Assists: Gretzky 1943, Lemieux 1496
Points: Gretzky 2846, Lemieux 2453
Goals Per Game Average: Lemieux .687, Gretzky .648
Assists Per Game Average: Gretzky 1.394, Lemieux 1.073
Points Per Game Average: Gretzky 2.042, Lemieux 1.760
Most Goal Seasons: Greztky 10, Lemieux 7
Most Assist Seasons: Gretzky 16, Lemieux 1
Most Point Seasons: Gretzky 14, Lemieux 3
Highest Goals Season: Gretzky 96, Lemieux 94
Highest Assist Season: Gretzky 167, Lemieux 124
Highest Point Season: Gretzky 227, Lemieux 218
Seasons with 50/+ Goals: Lemieux 12, Gretzky 10
Seasons with 100/+ Assists: Gretzky 12, Lemieux 6
Seasons with 100/+ Points: Gretzky 16, Lemieux 15
Seasons with 200/+ Points: Gretzky 5, Lemieux 2
These two players were amazing. I would love to see players with this much skill, but i highly doubt we will ever see it. Hats off to both Gretzky and Lemieux
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP
|
|
|
hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2015 : 01:16:17
|
Head to Head Games: Gretzky vs Lemieux
Stat line is Goals-Assists-Points, Plus/Minus if available
Date Result
11/06/84 Oilers 3 @ Pens 3 Lemieux 0-1-1, Gretzky 1-0-1
1/12/85 Oilers 3 @ Pens 4 Lemieux 2-0-2, Gretzky 0-3-3
1/26/85 Pens 3 @ Oilers 6 Lemieux 1-0-1, Gretzky 3-1-4
1/22/86 Pens 7 @ Oilers 4 Lemieux 0-4-4, Gretzky 1-1-2
3/07/86 Pens 3 @ Oilers 5 Lemieux 0-1-1, Gretzky 0-2-2
3/26/86 Oilers 8 @ Pens 3 Lemieux 0-1-1, Gretzky 1-3-4
1/24/87 Pens 2 @ Oilers 4 Lemieux 0-1-1, Gretzky 1-3-4
11/20/87 Pens 1 @ Oilers 4 Lemieux 0-1-1,-2 Gretzky 0-2-2.+2
2/19/88 Pens 3 @ Oilers 7 Lemieux 0-1-1,Even Gretzky 0-0-0, Even
11/12/88 Pens 2 @ Kings 7 Lemieux 1-1-2,+3 Gretzky 0-1-1, Even
3/07/89 Pens 2 @ Kings 3 Lemieux 1-1-2,+2 Gretzky 0-2-2, +2
10/31/89 Kings 8 @ Pens 4 Lemieux 0-2-2,-3 Gretzky 3-3-6, +4
2/10/90 Kings 6 @ Pens 7 Lemieux 0-1-1,-1 Gretzky 0-1-1, Even
2/26/91 Pens 2 @ Kings 8 Lemieux 0-1-1,-3 Gretzky 0-3-3, +1
3/07/91 Kings 2 @ Pens 3 Lemieux 0-2-2,+2 Gretzky 1-1-2, +1
3/07/92 Pens 3 @ Kings 5 Lemieux 0-1-1,-1 Gretzky 1-2-3, +3
3/11/93 Kings 3 @ Pens 4 Lemieux 1-3-4,+2 Gretzky 1-1-2, Even
11/06/93 Pens 3 @ Kings 8 Lemieux 0-2-2,-2 Gretzky 0-4-4,+3
3/26/96 Blues 4 @ Pens 8 Lemieux 5-2-7,+3 Gretzky 0-1-1,-2
10/16/96 Pens 1 @ NYR 8 Lemieux 0-0-0,-2 Gretzky 0-2-2, +2
11/16/96 NYR 8 @ Pens 3 Lemieux 0-1-1,-1 Gretzky 1-1-2, Even
1/25/97 NYR 7 @ Pens 4 Lemieux 0-0-0,-1 Gretzky 0-3-3, +1
3/24/97 Pens 0 @ NYR 3 Lemieux 0-0-0,-2 Gretzky 1-1-2, +2
23 Total Games Lemieux 11-27-38, -13 Gretzky 15-41-56, +16
9 Oilers Games Lemieux 3-10-13, -2 Gretzky 7-15-22, +1
14 Post-Oilers Lemieux 8-17-25, -11 Gretzky 8-26-34, +15
Gretzky's team was 17-5-1 (.761) in these 23 games, 18-6-1 (.740) if the other two count.
Unaccounted for games
12/05/86 Oilers 4 @ Pens 2 Lemieux 0-0-0 Gretzky 0-3-3
2/24/87 Oilers 2 @ Pens 5 Lemieux 0-0-0 Gretzky 0-1-1
HSP shows that Mario played in the game before the December 5 game (November 30) and the game after (December 6), but that doesn't necessarily mean he played on December 5. He played February 26, but doesn't show up in the boxscores immediately prior to the February 24 game. These games may move Gretzky's line as high as 15-45-60.
Now you guys can do that analysis stuff that you always do, now that you have, to the best of my knowledge, stats for all the games the played against each other.
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
 |
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2015 : 12:20:45
|
| I didn't audit your stats numbers or other wise, but if your point was Gretzky was better than Lemieux, I think most people will conceive the point. Some will argue it because of Lemieux's health or the longevity of eithers career, but in the end Gretzky wins with the majority of hockey fans. The argument has sometimes become if he was better than Bobby Orr, if you consider there differences in positions. Either way all were incredible, as with Jagr and Howe. All with different highlights to otherwise incredible careers. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2015 : 08:30:39
|
Very interesting, thanks for this, Hanley! Much appreciated.
I still argue (and most will agree) that Lemieux never went through a "diminishing returns" aging process, due to the fact that he actually had more time off to regenerate/rest, AND, he didn't play nearly as long. The factors of overall age and fatigue, the wearing down of your mental toughness and tenacity due to constant play for 17 seasons . . . it has a palpable effect, that no one can deny.
Lemieux's numbers would have been much, much lower without his injuries. I mean his career ppg average, etc . . . would have been much lower.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2015 : 17:41:44
|
The ongoing debate #128522; who was better ?
I watched them both throughout their careers , they were different type players I thought. Gretzky was always the one to plan the perfect play... Lemieux was always the one to finish it off.
It's hard to say which one was better, I like to think one was better than the other at certain aspects of the game. NO ONE was better than Lemieux one on one... NO ONE seen the ice or read a play better than Gretzky .
I also watched Bobby Orr, he was great at both !!! #128521;
Lemieux seemed like he played hockey because he was good at it...
Gretzky seemed like he played hockey because he loved it....
Orr seemed like he had a combination of both, Orr had Swagger ... Orr dished out big body checks and also dropped the GLOVES...#128565;
Orr,s offensive stats were astounding for a defenseman and his plus / minus #'s were through the roof in some seasons...Orr slowed the game down, opposing players just watched and tried to guess what he was going to do next .
All great players indeed |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2015 : 21:41:36
|
A few stats on Orr
Year. Goals. PTs +/-
69-70. 33. 120. 54
70-71. 37. 139. 124
71-72. 37. 117. 86
72-73. 29. 101. 56
73-74. 32. 122. 84
74-75. 46. 135. 80. Unbelievable
Career plus - minus ... Of plus. 597
Just to compare to another d-man, Chris prongers was career plus 183 ...
92 points in 74 career playoff games
Some awards
1966-1967
Calder
67-68
Norris
68-69
Norris
69-70
Norris
Conn smythe
Hart memorial
70-71
Norris
Hart memorial
71-72
Norris
Conn smythe
Hart memorial
72-73
Norris
73-74
Norris
74-75
Norris
Art Ross
Lester b Pearson
8 straight consecutive Norris trophy winning seasons
Job to top that #128522; |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 13:58:40
|
Not certain who you were directing that last comment to Duke, but if you wanted a comparison to Orr, here goes:
Paul Coffey
Years Games Goals Assists Points - Career Games Goals Assists Points
1980-81 - 74 -- 9 - 23 - 32
1981-82 - 80 - 29 - 60 -- 89 ---- 2y Career total - 154 -- 38 -- 83 - 121
1982-83 - 80 - 29 - 67 -- 96 ---- 3y Career total - 234 -- 67 - 150 - 217
1983-84 - 80 - 40 - 86 - 126 ---- 4y Career total - 314 - 107 - 236 - 342
1984-85 - 80 - 37 - 84 - 121 ---- 5y Career total - 396 - 144 - 320 - 463
1985-86 - 79 - 48 - 90 - 138 ---- 6y Career total - 475 - 192 - 410 - 601
1986-87 - 59 - 17 - 50 -- 67 ---- 7y Career total - 534 - 209 - 460 - 668
1987-88 - 46 - 15 - 52 -- 67 ---- 8y Career total - 580 - 224 - 512 - 735
1988-89 - 75 - 30 - 83 - 113 ---- 9y Career total - 655 - 254 - 595 - 848
1989-90 - 80 - 29 - 74 - 103 --- 10y Career total - 735 - 283 - 669 - 952
1990-91 - 76 - 24 - 69 -- 93 --- 11y Career total - 811 - 307 - 738 - 1045
1991-92 - 64 - 11 - 58 -- 69 --- 12y Career total - 875 - 318 - 796 - 1114
1992-93 - 80 - 12 - 75 -- 87 --- 13y Career total - 955 - 330 - 871 - 1201
1993-94 - 80 - 14 - 63 -- 77 --- 14y Career total - 1035 - 344 - 934 - 1278
1994-95 - 45 - 14 - 44 -- 58 --- 15y Career total - 1080 - 358 - 978 - 1336
1995-96 - 76 - 14 - 60 -- 74 --- 16y Career total - 1156 - 372 - 1038 - 1400
He had an incredible goals per game average to this point .322
An absolutely amazing assist per game average of .897
an unbelievable and unrepeatable points per game average of 1.211
This was not the end of his career, but the start of the dead puck era and the point at which he and others like Ray Bourque with similar stats couldn't maintain the ppg pace. He ended his career at:
1409 games
396 goals / .281 gpg%
1135 assists / .805 apg%
1531 points and a ppg% 1.086
Had Coffey ended his career roughly the same amount of games played 88-89 with 655 games played to Orr's 657, he would have been within 10% of Orr's career totals in goals assists and points. The fact he was able to maintain that pace and level of play for more than 2.5 times Orr's career total games played, only to drop off in his later years, coinciding with the dead puck era is incredible. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 03/31/2015 11:17:47 |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 14:03:01
|
| I tried to line up the stats but when I posted all the space deleted. I organized the post to year, games, goals, assists, points and finally career totals to that point. Sorry if its a hard read, but just wanted to show how comparable Orr and Coffey were for those who believe Orr's career was un-comparable. |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 16:31:12
|
Wasn't directing any comment toward any1 in particular Joshua
Just a Orr fan
Coffey was a great offensive talent... But
Orr hit hard and fought...plus was. Great offensive talent, a very rare combination ... That's what makes him the greatest d-man of all time
It's more than points that come into play
For example....if points only counted... Over the last several years, this would mean that Phil kessel is a better hockey player than johnathon teows .... Lol
Teows is head and shoulders above kessel... Kessel isn't even in teows hemisphere.... YET... Kessel has more points in the previous 3 seasons combined than teows... Points don't tell the whole story
Most are too young to remember Orr play, I watched both Orr and Coffey. Coffey controlled the play, Orr controlled the game
I wonder what Orr,s point totals would look like if he had # 99 to foward the puck to has Coffey had....
NOT sayin Gretzky made Coffey... Coffey was great after the gretzky days BUT as a d-man ... Ur stats HAVE to get PADDED having a forward in front of u scoring over 200 points
|
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 18:15:06
|
| Points are why I used Coffey to make my point, but I wanted you to see there were other comparable players to Orr out there. Bourque, Lindstrom both have amazing point totals with amazing 2 way games, but not on the physical level Orr was. Chelios early in his career was the closest to having the triple threat I have been told Orr had. But the one thing all of those players had Orr did not was a long career. When considering the best to ever play the game almost every player gets compared to a player who dominated for 8 years but only had a 9 full year career with 3 other part years with very few games. I am not saying he wasn't great, but a long career has to come in to play in being considered the greatest player ever. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 03/31/2015 11:21:49 |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2015 : 22:19:16
|
Well 8 years at the pace he had I think proves something
Remember his knees were bad through some of those seasons too... Quite the feat I think .. 2 NHL scoring titles to boot ...
Has any other defenseman ever won the art Ross beside Orr ?
When comparing forwards and defenseman to other forwards and defenseman .... In respect to point totals, YOU CANT put too much emphasis on players who played in different eras......
All I'm saying is , it's much fairer to compare Orrs totals to other top defenseman who played during his era
Same with players like Coffey.... Compare his stats to other top defenseman who played during his era... This gives a clearer picture on that player
We've had flat out scoring war eras... Some trap eras... And some neutral eras... Look at goaltending today, their unreal ... All these factors come into play
BUT .... When you compare players of the same hockey era, THEY. ALL had to deal with the same circumstances. |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2015 : 22:26:41
|
Actually Coffey blew away the competition in his position and most of the forwards playing the game when all the all time records were being smashed by Gretzky and challenged by Lemieux, which is likely why Coffey never got a sniff at the Art Ross. I am not trying to take away from the accomplishments of Orr. I just remember a time when the greatest players to ever play the game played and Coffey was among them. In his first 10 seasons he had more goals than Orr's career total and Orr played in 12 seasons. Albeit the last 3 seasons were not great based on the injuries you mentioned. I am providing a link to the highest scoring defenseman to play the game and he is the only comparable to Orr point wise over his career. But again if you stop his career at the point Orr did, he would have eclipsed Orr's total. Coffeys career between 19-29 was greater than Orr from 18-30. I would say Orr changed the game, but likely people have forgotton just how good Coffey was, because he didn't play a physical brand of hockey. The only reason he doesn't own all the defenseman records is because Bourque, a similar talent played in 203 more games in which he got 14 more goals and 48 more points.
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-defensemen-all-time-points-leaders.html |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 03/31/2015 11:23:24 |
|
|
|
The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2015 : 14:36:14
|
Yes Coffey was an explosive offensive talent, no doubt. He was one of the all time greats for sure and was over shadowed by Gretzky while playing on maybe the greatest NHL team ever assembled.
Again, as I mentioned before, it's not fair comparing players who played on different style teams in diffrent eras .
I wonder what Orrs totals would look like if he played with Gretzky, kurri, messier, Anderson, etc... During the 80,s on an ALL offensive onslaught team like the oilers ??
Remember, the team Orr played, ( although a very talented team ) was noted for in your face , tight checking, defensive style hockey
To put up those numbers while playing on such team was quite remarkable |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2015 : 15:32:10
|
Hey no disagreement with the fact the remainder of the Oilers played a part in Coffey's incredible totals, but I could have easily done a comparison to Orr and Bourque. Orr would have come out on top, but again it would have been close enough to compare, while Bourque wouldn't have been accused of having elevated stats solely because of his teammates. Coffey didn't always play with Gretzky or the Oilers and still put up incredible league leading stats. Just like the age old arguments against Gretzky being the best ever, the parts (players) may not have the sums (stats) without the whole of the Oilers team. But then again we are talking about some of the Greatest players to play the game ever and maybe it would not have been as far off as we expect.
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Yes Coffey was an explosive offensive talent, no doubt. He was one of the all time greats for sure and was over shadowed by Gretzky while playing on maybe the greatest NHL team ever assembled.
Again, as I mentioned before, it's not fair comparing players who played on different style teams in diffrent eras .
I wonder what Orrs totals would look like if he played with Gretzky, kurri, messier, Anderson, etc... During the 80,s on an ALL offensive onslaught team like the oilers ??
Remember, the team Orr played, ( although a very talented team ) was noted for in your face , tight checking, defensive style hockey
To put up those numbers while playing on such team was quite remarkable
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2015 : 07:04:22
|
For me, in terms of player worth at their highest peak, I put Gretzky and Lemieux as equals. BUT, if I am asked to judge who was better, I have to give the edge to Gretzky . . . because of more durability, longer career, and the slightly better stats (even when you adjust for the dead puck era, or the high-scoring era).
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2015 : 07:49:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
For me, in terms of player worth at their highest peak, I put Gretzky and Lemieux as equals. BUT, if I am asked to judge who was better, I have to give the edge to Gretzky . . . because of more durability, longer career, and the slightly better stats (even when you adjust for the dead puck era, or the high-scoring era).
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
Couldn't agree more. Though I hated the Oilers (only because they were so good and constantly beat up on the Canucks) I always respected Gretzky and consider him the best ever! It's like Kobe or Lebron in Basketball. They're Lemieux's in my mind while Air Jordan is the Gretzky.
Orr, I give a ton of respect to, but as always, it's difficult to compare the era's especially since i was too young to appreciate Orr's talents. However, here's the thing i see, and again, at that time, i get it, he was the best, but the game was SO much slower then. What I'm getting at, is in today's game, i think Gretzky in his prime would still thrive. Orr, not nearly as much. Again, it's nearly impossible to compare but it's all i have to go on. I asked my dad who watched all these players through their prime and he agrees that hands down, Gretzky is simply the greatest ever. And he too was not an Oilers fan!!!
It's the ever subjective question, one that there really isn't a right or wrong answer i guess? |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2015 : 13:11:41
|
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-points-per-game-leaders.html
Thought this would be the place to post the all time points leaders, based on Points per game. Some of the usual suspects, Gretzky 1st, Lemieux 2nd, Bossy 3rd, but surprisingly Sidney Crosby is in 5th right behind Bobby Orr at 4th, Malkin at 11th, Ovechkin at 15th and even though father time is catching up now Jagr at 17th still. The sooner Jagr retires the sooner he will be a guarantee Hall of Famer. Hopefully he doesn't play so long that he drops to much more in the points per game category or he will end up in the Gordie Howe territory at 37th on the list. |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2015 : 15:11:17
|
The reason I brought up Jagr was the longer he plays the farther his statistics get from the top of the league, except points total. Jagr's career prior to returning to the NHL.
Year - games goals ass points Career goals ass points
1990-91 - 80 - 27 - 30 - 57
1991-92 - 70 - 32 - 37 - 69 ---- 150 -- 59 -- 67 - 126
1992-93 - 81 - 34 - 60 - 94 ---- 231 -- 93 - 127 - 220
1993-94 - 80 - 32 - 67 - 99 ---- 311 - 125 - 194 - 319
1994-95 - 48 - 32 - 38 - 70 ---- 359 - 157 - 232 - 389
1995-96 - 82 - 62 - 87 - 149 --- 441 - 219 - 319 - 538
1996 97 - 63 - 47 - 48 - 95 ---- 504 - 266 - 367 - 633
1997-98 - 77 - 35 - 67 - 102 --- 581 - 301 - 434 - 735
1998-99 - 81 - 44 - 83 - 127 --- 662 - 345 - 517 - 862
1999-00 - 63 - 42 - 54 - 96 ---- 725 - 387 - 571 - 958
2000-01 - 81 - 52 - 69 - 121 --- 806 - 429 - 640 - 1079
2001-02 - 69 - 31 - 48 - 79 ---- 875 - 460 - 688 - 1158
2002-03 - 75 - 36 - 41 - 77 ---- 950 - 496 - 729 - 1235
2003-04 - 77 - 31 - 43 - 74 --- 1027 - 527 - 772 - 1312
2005-06 - 82 - 54 - 69 - 123 -- 1109 - 581 - 841 - 1435
2006-07 - 82 - 30 - 66 - 96 --- 1191 - 611 - 907 - 1531
2007-08 - 82 - 25 - 46 - 71 --- 1273 - 636 - 953 - 1602
gpg .499 which would have been good for 20th all time
apg .749 which was good for 12th all time
ppg 1.58 which was 3rd all time behind only Gretzky, Lemieux
Since he has come back he has dropped to 41st in gpg, 27th in apg, 17th on the ppg, list but has climbed from points total 9th all time to 5th all time and soon to be 4th with 2 more points. All that without 3 years playing in non NHL leagues. For those who maintain a long career goes into being the best player ever there is a case Jagr might be the one who should be compared to Gretzky |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2015 : 14:58:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-points-per-game-leaders.html
Thought this would be the place to post the all time points leaders, based on Points per game. Some of the usual suspects, Gretzky 1st, Lemieux 2nd, Bossy 3rd, but surprisingly Sidney Crosby is in 5th right behind Bobby Orr at 4th, Malkin at 11th, Ovechkin at 15th and even though father time is catching up now Jagr at 17th still. The sooner Jagr retires the sooner he will be a guarantee Hall of Famer. Hopefully he doesn't play so long that he drops to much more in the points per game category or he will end up in the Gordie Howe territory at 37th on the list.
And to further your point JOSHUACANADA,
If Crosby and Malkin continue their careers in relative health until their mid-late 30's . . . do any of us believe that they will sustain the same ppg pace? Of course not! This is the "mirage" of Lemieux, to an extent . . . as great as he was (and he was right there with Gretz, no taking it away from him) there is still zero doubt he has deminishing returns over a longer career with more consistent playing time each season.
If Bossy played a much longer career, there's no way he's third. Except for Gretzky at #1 . . . who are the guys who played what could be termed a "full" career in that top 10, top 20 of ppg?
Gretz at #1
...
Dionne
Esposito, Lafleur, Sakic.
Look at the superstars with super long careers . . . and cut off their last 5 years. Check out what that does to their points per game:
Gretzky -- career ppg 1.921 (#1)
without last 5 years: ppg 2.185 [still over 1100 games, btw]
Dionne - career ppg 1.314 (#6)
without last 4 years: ppg 1.390 [1003 games]
Esposito - career ppg 1.240 (#10)
without last 5 yrs: ppg 1.360 [922 games, about what Mario played]
If Crosby, Ovechkin or Malkin have longer, healthier careers (the current players in the top 15 ppg all-time, all that's required is 500 gp), they will fall down the all-time standings. It's a given. If any of the three retire suddenly due to injury or other reasons while still playing at a similar level . . . their ppg stays about where it is now, and their compareables will continue to drop down the longer they play late into their careers.
This is where the true greatness of Gretzky lies, if I may circle back to the main point - his ppg is still so high even though he had a long, healthy career. But if you put him back to retire when Mario did . . . his ppg is well above 2, and it's not even close.
The end.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2015 : 09:50:53
|
| Everything you put in your last point was great. I agree with it all. The only tweak I would make would be to include Yserman. I know I am not going to get a whole lotta love for saying this, but I could argue why he was the closest to Gretzky talent and physically wise. The only reason he is not generally put into these conversations is a drastic change in his game or a refocus to his game, which changed his whole team in to buying in to 2 way defensive play, creating the Dynasty (IMO) in Detroit. At one point he was up there with Lemieux, Gretzky, etc in the top 2-5 in scoring for an extended period of time, then all of a sudden he does an about 180 and becomes one of the best 2way forwards in the game. He now sits 7 on the all time scoring list, but had he not changed his game like he did, I truly believe he would be sitting 2nd or 3rd all time on the scoring list. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2015 : 07:10:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
Everything you put in your last point was great. I agree with it all. The only tweak I would make would be to include Yserman. I know I am not going to get a whole lotta love for saying this, but I could argue why he was the closest to Gretzky talent and physically wise. The only reason he is not generally put into these conversations is a drastic change in his game or a refocus to his game, which changed his whole team in to buying in to 2 way defensive play, creating the Dynasty (IMO) in Detroit. At one point he was up there with Lemieux, Gretzky, etc in the top 2-5 in scoring for an extended period of time, then all of a sudden he does an about 180 and becomes one of the best 2way forwards in the game. He now sits 7 on the all time scoring list, but had he not changed his game like he did, I truly believe he would be sitting 2nd or 3rd all time on the scoring list.
That's a fair point - and I think Yzerman is certainly top 10 all-time - but, you can only judge what happened, not what could have happened, or what you wish had happened.
Being in the same stratosphere as Gretzky and Lemieux . . . is a stretch for Yzerman. If you tell me that he's at the front of the line AFTER Gretz and Mario . . . then I'd be in agreement for the most part.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2015 : 11:16:50
|
| Yah that's more like what I meant. Agreed |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/19/2016 : 18:09:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-points-per-game-leaders.html
Thought this would be the place to post the all time points leaders, based on Points per game. Some of the usual suspects, Gretzky 1st, Lemieux 2nd, Bossy 3rd, but surprisingly Sidney Crosby is in 5th right behind Bobby Orr at 4th, Malkin at 11th, Ovechkin at 15th and even though father time is catching up now Jagr at 17th still. The sooner Jagr retires the sooner he will be a guarantee Hall of Famer. Hopefully he doesn't play so long that he drops to much more in the points per game category or he will end up in the Gordie Howe territory at 37th on the list.
Is there any question, 1 year later at 44, with Jagr still playing elite and eclipsing another record every other week, that this guy doesn't belong in the greatest to ever play category, beside the other Elites that people always seem to talk about (Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux) The longer this guy plays and the more records he breaks has me firmly convinced he might have been, arguably, the best to ever play the game. He made a comment earlier this season that he might play until 50. It might take that long to catch Gretzky, but with the 3 years out of the league and a few lost to lockouts, this is the only guy who ever had a shot of catching him. This and he has played thru lockouts, puck dead era's and some of the most physical hockey era's ever. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 07:28:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-points-per-game-leaders.html
Thought this would be the place to post the all time points leaders, based on Points per game. Some of the usual suspects, Gretzky 1st, Lemieux 2nd, Bossy 3rd, but surprisingly Sidney Crosby is in 5th right behind Bobby Orr at 4th, Malkin at 11th, Ovechkin at 15th and even though father time is catching up now Jagr at 17th still. The sooner Jagr retires the sooner he will be a guarantee Hall of Famer. Hopefully he doesn't play so long that he drops to much more in the points per game category or he will end up in the Gordie Howe territory at 37th on the list.
Is there any question, 1 year later at 44, with Jagr still playing elite and eclipsing another record every other week, that this guy doesn't belong in the greatest to ever play category, beside the other Elites that people always seem to talk about (Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux) The longer this guy plays and the more records he breaks has me firmly convinced he might have been, arguably, the best to ever play the game. He made a comment earlier this season that he might play until 50. It might take that long to catch Gretzky, but with the 3 years out of the league and a few lost to lockouts, this is the only guy who ever had a shot of catching him. This and he has played thru lockouts, puck dead era's and some of the most physical hockey era's ever.
For me, Jagr was already an ALL TIME GREAT when he left for the KHL. Now that he has come back and is still a very good player who is contributing . . . he's just adding to his legend. In this day and age, with the speed of the game dramatically above Gretzky's time . . . it's really remarkable.
Separating the Gordie Howe era and earlier from the modern era, I tend to think that when making my all-time great list, I might have to put Jagr at #4 (behind Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr). It's tough to put him ahead of guys like Bossy, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Selanne, but . . . yeah. That's where I'd put him, without having a full statistical analysis in front of me.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2016 : 15:38:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/records/nhl-players-all-time-points-per-game-leaders.html
Thought this would be the place to post the all time points leaders, based on Points per game. Some of the usual suspects, Gretzky 1st, Lemieux 2nd, Bossy 3rd, but surprisingly Sidney Crosby is in 5th right behind Bobby Orr at 4th, Malkin at 11th, Ovechkin at 15th and even though father time is catching up now Jagr at 17th still. The sooner Jagr retires the sooner he will be a guarantee Hall of Famer. Hopefully he doesn't play so long that he drops to much more in the points per game category or he will end up in the Gordie Howe territory at 37th on the list.
Is there any question, 1 year later at 44, with Jagr still playing elite and eclipsing another record every other week, that this guy doesn't belong in the greatest to ever play category, beside the other Elites that people always seem to talk about (Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux) The longer this guy plays and the more records he breaks has me firmly convinced he might have been, arguably, the best to ever play the game. He made a comment earlier this season that he might play until 50. It might take that long to catch Gretzky, but with the 3 years out of the league and a few lost to lockouts, this is the only guy who ever had a shot of catching him. This and he has played thru lockouts, puck dead era's and some of the most physical hockey era's ever.
For me, Jagr was already an ALL TIME GREAT when he left for the KHL. Now that he has come back and is still a very good player who is contributing . . . he's just adding to his legend. In this day and age, with the speed of the game dramatically above Gretzky's time . . . it's really remarkable.
Separating the Gordie Howe era and earlier from the modern era, I tend to think that when making my all-time great list, I might have to put Jagr at #4 (behind Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr). It's tough to put him ahead of guys like Bossy, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Selanne, but . . . yeah. That's where I'd put him, without having a full statistical analysis in front of me.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds!
But again, back to the age old question of how much a long career goes into ranking a player as the best ever, Jagr already played more than twice as much as Orr and Lemieux. Even the other guys on you list Bossy, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Selanne all had long mostly healthy careers, yet with 3 years in his prime lost to the KHL and 1 and a half other seasons lost to lockout and he is still #3 all time on the points list. The legend of the Mullet might go down in history as #2 best ever. |
|
|
|
Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2016 : 08:55:05
|
There's so many ways to judge "best player". I'm a firm believer that it's Gretzky then Lemieux at 1 & 2. Nobody will convince me otherwise. BUT, I'm willing to admit that in 88-89, when Lemieux put up his best season (199pts), that he was the best player in the world. Prob a few other seasons around then too?
SO, to judge "best ever", sure, you can add longevity in there, in which case Jagr is for sure in the mix, though for me, the highest he could ever go would be 2, and even then, I have a problem putting him ahead of a guy like Lemieux, who was better than him when they were both in their prime.
Another very subjective and judgemental question is what we have here. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
If Lemieux and Gretzky had same GP amount 
