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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
 Posted - 11/01/2007 : 11:26:17
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Thoughts on whether Bondra will make the Hall?
I think this is a tricky question. He's a 500 goal scorer who played virtually hi entire career in the dead puck era. That's something. Only Jagr has more goals 94-04.
He was impressively fast as well. Won fastest skater one year at the All Star game. I remember that as it actually surprised me.
Are his goals enough to get him in? I don't know. I'm going with no...
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 11:35:40
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I don't think he makes it. If he does it's a travesty because guys like Glenn Anderson haven't made it in yet. He has 498 goals and 1099 points, along with 6 rings. Compare that to Bondra who has 503goals and 892 points with no rings.
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall. |
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nux_fan
Top Prospect
10 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 12:36:21
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| Not a chance in heLL |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 17:25:03
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quote:
Originally posted by hkalirah
I don't think he makes it. If he does it's a travesty because guys like Glenn Anderson haven't made it in yet. He has 498 goals and 1099 points, along with 6 rings. Compare that to Bondra who has 503goals and 892 points with no rings.
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall.
I completely agree with this. I think he doesn't make it based on the fact that they sort of fall on the side of exclusion, not inclusion with marginal guys like these. Plus, he never had that one sensational season that really sticks out to the people who do the voting.
Guys like Adam Oates and Ron Francis fall into this category (although I think Francis goes in ahead of Bondra and Oates because of the Cup rings). Terrific careers, but where was the 150 point season? Or the 60 goal season? Or the money shot of the guy hoisting the Stanley Cup (which is why Brind'Amour has a shot someday - that face holding the Cup is both the most grotesque and most beautiful thing I'd ever seen at the same time).
Not taking anything away from Bondra, though. |
Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/01/2007 17:26:12 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 17:30:11
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Anderson isn't in the hall because of an incident that happened with him (don't know if it was with the NHLPA or the league itself). That is why he isn't in.
Bondra should be in for 1 reason.
-He scored 502 goals mostly in the Dead Puck Era. That itself is impressive. |
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Guest0843
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Posted - 11/01/2007 : 19:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Guys like Adam Oates and Ron Francis fall into this category (although I think Francis goes in ahead of Bondra and Oates because of the Cup rings). Terrific careers, but where was the 150 point season? Or the 60 goal season?
Sorry Fly but not many players in the HHOF ever had 150 points or 60 goal seasons. In the HHOF, there is only 2 at 150+ points (Yzerman not in yet) and probably less than 15 at 60 goals (Yzerman, Bure and Selanne are not in yet). Those are very special numbers you are throwing around.
Bondra not in because 1. He played for Washington (not like they get alot of hockey attention. 2. No rings. 3. Not 1000 points. 4. No major individual award. But darn good player.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 19:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0843
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Guys like Adam Oates and Ron Francis fall into this category (although I think Francis goes in ahead of Bondra and Oates because of the Cup rings). Terrific careers, but where was the 150 point season? Or the 60 goal season?
Sorry Fly but not many players in the HHOF ever had 150 points or 60 goal seasons. In the HHOF, there is only 2 at 150+ points (Yzerman not in yet) and probably less than 15 at 60 goals (Yzerman, Bure and Selanne are not in yet). Those are very special numbers you are throwing around.
I am fairly well aware of who is in the HHOF, thanks. I know a lot of them did not have 150 point seasons. I know many of them did not score 60 goals in a season. My point was that Bondra exhibits no WOW factor, such as someone who has done these things (or other things not related to 150 point, 60 goal seasons such as, but not exclusive to: 10 shutouts in a season, a save percentage over .930, 100 assists, 350 penalty minutes, etc).
The Rocket had 50 goals in 50 games. That's a WOW factor. I acknowledge that, and it wasn't even a 60 goal season.
Along with being knowledgable about who is a member of the HHOF, I also have an aversion toward the use of figurative language, as opposed to literal. My apologies to those whom would conversationally be considered anal retentive. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 22:02:42
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I actually just laughed out loud when you compared Bondra to Francis and Oates. Now that's a real piece of WOW factor. I think it's really great that you support Francis getting inducted into the HHOF considering he was inducted this year.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/01/2007 : 22:36:48
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quote:
Originally posted by MSC
I actually just laughed out loud when you compared Bondra to Francis and Oates. Now that's a real piece of WOW factor. I think it's really great that you support Francis getting inducted into the HHOF considering he was inducted this year.
Actually, Francis will not get inducted for another 10 days, since you appearently like to try and get technical.
If you disagree with my assessment of Bondra, then go on and make some points, instead of just saying "I laughed out loud." I welcome a good hockey argument/conversation. What I don't care for is people with condescending insults but nothing to back them up. I am, after all, older than 11.
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 00:57:27
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Yup, you got me there. They didn't have the ceremony so Francis isn't in the HOF yet. This certainly leaves him open for comparision with other non HOF members.
Ron Francis is 4th all time in career points, second all time in assists, 21st in goals. He has 3 Lady Byng trophies, and 2 Stanley Cups. Did I mention he is 4th all time in points scored(1756)?
Peter Bondra has 892 career points, and is 35th in all time goals scored. Yeah, that's about it.
I really don't understand how you could dream of comparing these two players. Bondra was good Francis was one of the best. One time I saw this really awesome picture of Lyle Odelin. I guess that puts him into the same category as Rod Brind'Amor.
Back onto topic. Peter Bondra is not HHOF worthy, unless we're talking about the Slovakia Hockey Hall of Fame |
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Guest8372
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Posted - 11/02/2007 : 06:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
I am fairly well aware of who is in the HHOF, thanks. I know a lot of them did not have 150 point seasons. I know many of them did not score 60 goals in a season.
Understatement of the week: A lot of players in the HHOF did not have 150 points.
How about only 3 of out the many thousands of players in the history of hockey? Or that the 2 that are currently in are so special, they waived the 3 year waiting rule.
As for the 60+ goals, that is a little less exclusive but still less than 20 players ever in the history have ever achieved this number, 7 are currently not in the HHOF, Mogilny, Selanne, Bure, Yzerman, Jagr, Robitaille, Nicholls (that's all I can think of).
Though I agree with you, Bondra never had that WOW factor even when he scored 50 goals in a season. Maybe it is because he never got any hype playing in Washington.
I'd compare Bondra to Bernie Nicholls. I'd argue Bondra's 50 goals from Oates is about the same feat as Nicholls 70 goals with Gretz feeding him. |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 08:40:02
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Lets think about this logically. The hall can only take in a max of 4 players per year.
Here's a list of people who have retired since 2000 who may get in. Some can be argued while other's can't.
Joe Nieuwendyk
Dave Andreychuk
Brett Hull
Brian Leech
Alexander Mogilny
Luc Robitaille
Steve Yzerman
Adam Oates
Igor Larianov
Pierre Turgeon
Pavel Bure
Doug Gilmour
Guys like Leech, Hull, Robitaille and Yzerman should be in first ballot. But is Bondra significantly better than any of the rest of these players?
Wings are used to fly, Leaves only fall. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 08:42:32
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Bondra will not make the HHOF. Reason being is not that he didn't win a Cup, but exaclty what Fly and MSC said. No wow factor. Plus, it hurts him not being a North American born player. I think it's a little harder for Europeans to get into the Hall.
And fellas, stop the personal shots.
And in regards to Francis, I know his numbers are fantastic, but I don't think he was a GOAT. Through the 80's, the man only broke 100 points once. In the 80's?? He should have had a lot more if he was so great. He couldn't win a Cup without Mario. He averaged a PPG in the regular season, but in the playoffs he was just over 1/2 PPG. Through all his great career he makes 3 all-star teams and only 1 time is asked to represent his country. And, he's a -10 in his career.
I hate to say it, but that doesn't look like a Hall of Fame Player to me. He is going in on stats and stats alone.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 08:56:49
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I understand that Francis couldn't take over a game with his skills and that longevity, consistency and health are the biggest factors in his success BUT how do you make a case for keeping the fourth most productive player in the history of the league out of the HHOF? Keep in mind that Gordie Howe(although he played a different style of game all together) also barely managed to average a point a game.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 09:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Bondra will not make the HHOF. Reason being is not that he didn't win a Cup, but exaclty what Fly and MSC said. No wow factor. Plus, it hurts him not being a North American born player. I think it's a little harder for Europeans to get into the Hall.
And fellas, stop the personal shots.
And in regards to Francis, I know his numbers are fantastic, but I don't think he was a GOAT. Through the 80's, the man only broke 100 points once. In the 80's?? He should have had a lot more if he was so great. He couldn't win a Cup without Mario. He averaged a PPG in the regular season, but in the playoffs he was just over 1/2 PPG. Through all his great career he makes 3 all-star teams and only 1 time is asked to represent his country. And, he's a -10 in his career.
I hate to say it, but that doesn't look like a Hall of Fame Player to me. He is going in on stats and stats alone.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
Couple of quick things on the Francis comments.
1. He played in a tough division in the '80s - probably the most defensive division of that time I would think - Maybe Pucknuts can help us with the '80s GA stats?  Sorry Pucknuts, but you are clearly the GREATEST when it comes to stats!
2. He was a very integral part of the Pens Cup teams - that can't be overestimated actually - he came up very big, especially in 91-92 with 27 playoff points
3. Greg Smith's comments need to be considered here - see what he has to say about Francis in his Questions and Answers thread
4. His consistency alone maybe should get him in - even if he hadn't made any 100 point seasons, he still has a lot of 80 or 90 point seasons - about 7 or 8 I believe - pretty impressive
5. I think using him not getting on All-Star teams to judge this is a bit harsh, as he played in an era where there were some superduperstar, superstar and very, very good centers
I'm not a Francis fan in particular (nothing against him either), but I think he definitely deserves to be in there.
Bondra is much trickier to me. I'd probably leave him out, but I'd acknowledge that if he would have been on a different team, things might have turned out differently for him. But, one has to consider that there have been some players over the years on worse teams (Dionne being the main one) who nevertheless clearly jumped over the HHOF hurdle.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/02/2007 : 11:34:14
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quote:
Originally posted by MSC
I understand that Francis couldn't take over a game with his skills and that longevity, consistency and health are the biggest factors in his success BUT how do you make a case for keeping the fourth most productive player in the history of the league out of the HHOF? Keep in mind that Gordie Howe(although he played a different style of game all together) also barely managed to average a point a game.
I wouldn't keep Francis out. He's not an outstanding player to me but I think over all his career warrants his induction.
Now for the Howe comment. You acknowledged his different style of play but you didn't mention the fact that Howe played in a very low scoring era in his prime and absolutely dominated. There was a five year stretch there in the 50's where he was as dominant as people say Gretzky was in the 80's.
Sorry, not to pick on your comment but Francis/Howe is just a bad comparison. There really is no comparison there.
There's not a snowball's chance that'd I'd put Bondra in though. Like others have said, not really any wow factor. Definitely a pure goal scorer but that just isn't enough.
Andreychuk, Leetch, Mogilny and Turgeon don't make my cut either.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2007 : 20:10:55
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Beans' comment about Europeans is true - I think they have to do something that much more impressive to make the Hall. However, I think the reverse is true for Americans. I bet Leetch gets in.
Francis deserves it because of his career point total. That one is a gimme - you really can't argue with the numbers. Too many points to deny him, even if he was never in that "mega-star" category.
Bondra won't make it in. I'm almost willing to bet the farm on that one (although I don't live on a farm). |
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Guest7170
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Posted - 11/04/2007 : 00:05:57
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| I believe he gets in. Although I agree there isn't the WOW factor, Bondra was important to hockey. He was not as important as Borje Salming, but I believe he held a similar role in the internationalization of the NHL into Europe. Of course Peter Stastny could be considered the most important Slovakian player, but was he more influential than Bondra? After Bondra, many more skilled Slovakian players came to the NHL than ever did after Stastny. The players include Palffy, Demitra and Stumpel within 3 years of Bondra's immediate impact on the NHL, and after them, many more. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 06:01:18
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| I have a sneaky suspicion Demitra (along with the others) would have made the NHL whether Bondra ever strapped the skates on or not. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 09:11:03
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| I'm not so sure if Demitra would have played in the NHL. Remember he was taken in the later rounds of his draft year. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 19:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7170
I believe he gets in. Although I agree there isn't the WOW factor, Bondra was important to hockey. He was not as important as Borje Salming, but I believe he held a similar role in the internationalization of the NHL into Europe. Of course Peter Stastny could be considered the most important Slovakian player, but was he more influential than Bondra? After Bondra, many more skilled Slovakian players came to the NHL than ever did after Stastny. The players include Palffy, Demitra and Stumpel within 3 years of Bondra's immediate impact on the NHL, and after them, many more.
Being a big influence on Slovakian hockey is like being a big influence on Jamaican ice fishing. Okay, maybe a little better (my apologies to my Slovakian friends), but still....it's nice, but does it make you a household name in the hockey world? Uh, no. Maybe he goes into the European Hall of Fame, but not ours (is there such a thing?).
If Bondra makes the HHOF, I will lose all respect for the institution and take up Jamaican ice fishing in protest. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2007 : 21:54:22
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Well Jamaica has a bobsled team, you never know, they could ice fish 
Bondra was actually born in Ukraine, he must've moved to Slovakia later on. Slovakia, while not even remotely close to being as big a hockey power as Canada for example, is, however, one of the few European countries that actually gives a crap about hockey.
But to get to the point, Bondra isn't good enough to make the HHOF. I would be very surprised if he ever gets in.
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Whether in hockey or politics, the Senators have always annoyed me |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 14:58:56
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Getting back to Bondra making the HHOF. 2 words, NO WAY. If he makes it I make it.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2007 : 15:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Smith
Getting back to Bondra making the HHOF. 2 words, NO WAY. If he makes it I make it.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games.
I can go you one better...if he makes it, I make it. |
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Topic |
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Will Bondra make the HHOF? 
