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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2007 : 19:51:05
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Poll Question:
Eric Lindros will officially retire on Thursday, according to TSN. There are many differing opinions about the legacy he leaves behind. Which statement best describes your opinion of him, and please explain your choice.
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Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/06/2007 19:52:36
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 19:55:20
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| I voted for the second statement, that his career was too affected by injuries to be considered for the HHOF. I also think he was a bit misunderstood, though. A lot of the issues surrounding him that would be considered controversial were the doings of his father, Bobby Clarke, and the doctors for the Philly Flyers. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:01:22
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| His career was ended by a concussion. So for those people who watched him in the 90's did he skate with his head down? Because perhaps he did because if he did get hit in juniors he wouldn't fall because he was so big. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:08:31
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Lindros did skate with his head down a lot, but there were other factors.
I suspect the head problem is a family issue, as his brother had to retire because from concussion problems after a pretty good start in the NHL.
He was also a target. Let's face it, in the 1990's, he was probably the best and most powerful hitter in the league. You know what happens when you are the champ...lots of contenders want to take you down. That made him a pretty nice target for guys looking to make a name for themselves.
I think he had a lot of heart, actually. There were many times in his career where he could have gone soft and played a different style of game, but that really only happened in the last couple of years. Even then, he was still a physical player and awesome body checker.
At the age of 18, he put Ulf Samuelson right through the glass (literally, the glass broke) in the 1991 Canada Cup. He was a hero of mine from that day forth. I wish things had gone differently for him, but he still had a decent career. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:36:28
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His peak value gets him in the HHOF for me. Though short, it was long enough to make an unforgettable impression.
But I voted "Other" because I think you probably can take the adjectives from a few of your categories ("misunderstood' and "selfish" being two) and say he was a little of each of these. "Arrogant" may be a good word too. But, yes, he had arrogant people around him too. Clarke, and the Fllyers, mishandled things with him.
In a way, he is kind of sad story . Yes, he was great and succeeded to a very high degree. But back in the early 90s everyone was forecasting such HUGE things for this guy (and that very much appeared to be real, not just hype, as we started to see more and more of him). I have a friend who is a bit like you actually Flyguy (breathes and bleeds hockey) and he just couldn't stop talking about Lindros, even in '92 and '93, let alone his bigger years that followed.
In some ways his story reminds me a bit of Marlon Brando (only without the Godfather comeback). But if you would have asked some guy in the mid-50s, after Brando had pulled off 4 consecutive best actor nominations, where he would have ended up in terms of academy awards won, the guy probably would have forecasted BIG BIG numbers for him. Same with Lindros - let's face it, we all thought the HHOF question was a gimme back in the mid-90s. The thing we were asking was where is he going to rank in the top three or four best ever.
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Edited by - andyhack on 11/08/2007 20:48:11 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 20:48:47
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Absolutely true, andyhack. In 1995 I was thinking, okay is this guy going to be behind Orr, maybe ahead of Mario...hmmm...not sure....
I was one of his biggest fans. As much as I like Crosby now, I was a bigger Lindros fan (if you can believe that). I loved every facet of his game.
Then the injuries started to mount up. The worst one (the one he almost died from) that Keith Jones basically saved his life when he had a collapsed lung, was totally the fault of the Flyers medical staff, who under Bobby Clarke, never accepted any responsibilty. Of course, he should never have been playing in that game where Scott Stevens nearly took his head off, either. He wanted to play, but if the Flyers had any sense, they would have kept him off of the ice.
And all Clarke does is call him a crybaby and insult his dad (who probably was a jerk - what agents aren't though).
Just a series of sad events. The guy was maybe never a top 5 of all time great, but he was a HHOF shoe-in at one time for sure. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2007 : 21:26:54
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| Lindros was one of my favorite players ever. I wanted to give half a vote to 2 and 3. I think he got a bad rep because of the whole Quebec draft day ordeal. I personally can't blame the guy one bit for his stance on the situation though. It's very unfortunate he suffered the injuries and scrutiny he did. I never had the honor of playing professionaly but I can gauruntee I would not want to be going into the corner against a man of that size and skill. He certainly did have a target on his back his entire career. I have my fingers crossed for him making the Hall, but it's not going to be a cake walk that's for sure. He certainly makes it before Bondra though. I mean, being Canadian does have it's benefits. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 10:08:37
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I voted the second option as well. I think that a HOF player is not only amazing in his peak, but at the least consistant and dangerous through his entire career. I have a hard time looking at a guy for the HOF without a solid 12-15+ year career with 10 of those(min) as outstanding.
I did lose a ton of respect for him through the "I'm not playing for Quebec" thing. I don't care if it was his dad/agent/preist/girlfriend that was making the decisions for him. He was his own man, he could have made that decision on his own. And if you get drafted you play. That's it. I don't care where it is. For us working class stiffs that dreamt(or still Dream, right Fly ) of playing in the NHL, it's an embarrassment to hold out on a contract or decline playing for the team that has your rights. I also think that that move the Lindros did on his draft year was the begining of teams overpaying/trading for players and contract hold outs and stuff in the NHL. Those things happened a lot more after Lindros got exactly what he wanted. Other players followed suit.
On ice, too short of an amazing streak to be in the HOF but could have been if not for injuries. Off the ice, he belongs in the Hall of Shame.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
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Guest9617
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Posted - 11/07/2007 : 11:40:05
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| Sorry, Andyhack, but peak value doesn't count. Would Lindros have put up HOF numbers had he remained healthy? Most certainly but coulda, shoulda, mighta, is just fun speculation. It's like Thurman Munson in baseball. If he hadn't died, stayed healthy and played 5-10 more years, he would have been a shoe-in, but fate said otherwise. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 11:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9617
Sorry, Andyhack, but peak value doesn't count. Would Lindros have put up HOF numbers had he remained healthy? Most certainly but coulda, shoulda, mighta, is just fun speculation. It's like Thurman Munson in baseball. If he hadn't died, stayed healthy and played 5-10 more years, he would have been a shoe-in, but fate said otherwise.
Peak does count. See Cam Neely...
And Lindros will get in the Hall.
People are too hung up on career numbers. It doesn't always take 15 - 20 seasons to see how talented a players is. Some players just belong for the sheer brilliance they showed while they played.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
Edited by - willus3 on 11/07/2007 12:03:28 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 13:04:20
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We had a pretty good discussion on this in: http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2717&whichpage=1
In 2040 older guys like the future moi are going look back on hockey of yesteryear and clearly remember some incredible things about Lindros in his prime. That combined with pretty decent numbers in their own right are my reasons for saying he should get in.
There are no hard and fast rules on this Guest 9617. If you were to strictly apply Bean's criteria, for example, Orr wouldn't get in. Of course, Beans and noone else except maybe those guys on the boat with R.P. McMurphy (Jack Nicholson) in One Flew over the Cuckoos Nest would suggest Orr shouldn't be in there.
Should someone of Orr's stature be the only exception to the longevity rule? I think it's a legitimate question, but come down on Willus's side of it for the answer. But you do have to be careful with it, I agree. Pay attention to the guy in the above thread who mentions the "indelible impression test" - he seems to make a valid point.
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Edited by - andyhack on 11/07/2007 13:06:30 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 13:22:31
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Was Eric Lindros better than Darryl Sittler?
If you can make this judgement than you saw enough of Lindros to determine if he belongs in the Hall.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 13:47:43
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I'd say that Lindros and Sittler are about even skill wise, it might be Lindros' grit that will get him into the hall someday, if he makes it.
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 15:48:47
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Wow.
I just saw Bobby Clarke on TSN, and he said Eric Lindros belongs in the Hall of Fame.
He also said that had Eric's parents left him alone, he doesn't know how good Eric would have been, but he was amazing despite their interference. He said before they became a factor, Eric was just a great young player, but that they made him be a pain in the butt for about three years.
He also said that Eric, for about seven years, was the most physically dominant player in the NHL, and maybe ever.
Great praise from Mr. Clarke. I have a bit more respect for him as of this moment. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2007 : 16:00:54
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Sorry to double-post, but I have to address something. Over the years, I have heard about the whole "I lost respect for Lindros because he did not go to Quebec" argument.
Man, people are so hypocritical about this. How many players over the years have held out, gotten traded, not shown up for training camp, etc., and it is soon forgotten? Hundreds?
The only thing Eric did differently is that he did it in a more public manner. You say bad Eric, I say bad Nordiques. They were idiots. He told them to trade the first overall pick because he did not want to play on their team, and they chose to pick him anyway. Stupid.
Like it or not, he was the Crosby of his day - a sure thing. That's a bit different from a workin' man. If I don't show up to work, I'm replaceable. He, at the time, was not. Should a person use that to their advantage? If anyone answers no I will call you a liar. If I had bargaining power of any kind, I am smart enough to make use of it to give the best life I can for my family, be it salary, location, or otherwise.
Interestingly, Lindros was proven right when the Nordiques were sumarily sold for a song a couple of years later. If you know anything about what went down in the Lindros situation, you'd know it had a lot to do with Marcel Aubut and Eric's parents more than anything. They did not like each other.
Why is that held against a then 18 year old? For what, listening to his parents? That's supposed to be a good thing. But nope - he's famous, so let's hate on him. I call BS.
Again, how many ADULT players have held out, gotten traded, etc, and no one says a darn word? Literally hundreds. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 07:18:49
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First of all, I never once said that Orr did not belong in the Hall of Fame.
And to compare Bobby Orr's brilliance in 657 to Lindros great(but not game trancending) play for 760 games is not the same. Not even close. The simple fact that Orr produced over 100 more points in more than 100 less games as a defensemen. Need I say more??
And Fly, how is what I said Hypocritical?? Have I ever applauded a player who held out?? Have I ever said good job to a guy saying he wouldn't play for a team?? I said that I thought Lindros started a lot of that stuff. Before 91, I'm sure it happened, but not that often. After 91?? It happened all the time. I think it's sick. If a team has your rights, you play for them. You don't like the place, you ask to be traded. This, I'll never player for a team crap is pathetic. Lindros did that. I wouldn't care who did it or does it, it's disgusting.
And bad Nordiques?? What the hell are you talking about?? They made the only move they could have. Lindros has such high value going in, they had no other option but to draft him and try to get him to play. They couldn't, so they trade for Peter Forsberg, Ron Hextall, Chris Simon, Mike Ricci, Kerry Huffman, Steve Duchesne, a 1st round selection (Jocelyn Thibault) in 1993, a 1st round selection (later traded to the Toronto Maple Leafs, later traded to the Washington Capitals - Nolan Baumgartner) in 1994, and $15,000,000 cash.
Bad Nordiques?? I think they did the only thing they could have and turned a possible horrible situation into 8 division titles and 2 Cups. How many division titles and Cups does Lindros have??
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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Guest9627
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Posted - 11/08/2007 : 10:53:15
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Of course Eric Lindros belongs in the HHOF. There are already guys like Clark Gillies and Guy Lapointe (to name a few) in the Hall. Plus, Lindros' Goals per game average is one of the highest, and he's a Hart Trophy winner -- only 2 previous Hart winers aren't inducted in the Hall of Fame.
Those that want to detract from Lindros' case as a HOF'er often state he missed too many games need only look at Cam Neely's numbers to see that the Bruin HOF'er is eerily similar to Lindros in Games Played, Goals and Points. No one seems to question Neely's induction even though his career was shortened.
Even Peter Forsberg seems to be on the same track as Lindros, and he will fall 100 points or more shy of 1,000 for his career unless he attempts another comeback. Oddly enough, many people name Forsberg as a HOF shoo-in when his time comes, even though his numbers will not compare to many other greats, due mostly to injuries.
For some reason, Lindros does not get his due, and most hockey fans tend to look for reasons to criticize him. Maybe his accolades came too soon, maybe he was pig-headed in his youth. But it cannot be denied he dominated the league in his youth, much in the way stars like Crosby and Ovechkin do now. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 13:00:23
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Difference between Forsberg and Lindros?? One is a winner, one is not. Also, Lindros went from Hockey God to a non-factor. A mildly health Forsberg on one leg is still one of the most feared offensive players in the game. Lindros, sadly, is not.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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Guest4071
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Posted - 11/08/2007 : 13:50:40
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| If Crosby continues getting another 120 points the next four, maybe five seasons, and then gets into injury trouble that eventually leads to retirement, does he get into the HHOF? This could be compared to Eric Lindros, although they play a different style of game. |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 15:02:17
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Just wondering, for the people who voted "other", what did you mean?
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 17:08:49
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I voted other....Based on numbers alone, he belongs in the HHOF..I mean, he was unreal in the mid-90's...But he was still a douchebag..I mean, most people in the NHL realize how lucky they are..They don't go cry on their dads shoulder saying I don't want to play in Quebec...Common! what a joke! I certainly respected his on ice work a lot more than that other first round pick who I really don't like..But off the ice, he was as big a p**** as Sid is on the ice. Refusing to play for Philly cause of his boyhood toronto dreams? ummmm, who's he think he is? I think his dad had a lot to do with all his off-ice problems, but if that's the case, eric should get a magnifying glass and look for his balls. If his dad had little to do with his self-centered decisions, then I'm glad he's retired, because no team should have a player with a "me-first" mentality.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 19:10:36
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Anybody else?
After playing in the NHL, it's hard to watch hockey games. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 20:39:59
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I chose "Other" because even though I think he was, for a time, "a great player" and that he belongs in the Hall of Fame, I think to just say that misses the full story of Eric Lindros, which included some selfishness, some very unfortunate incidents/injuries, some somewhat arrogant people in his life and ultimately a sense of disappointment about lost promise.
I think he was "selfish", but I don't come down as hard on him for that as Beans, because to be "selfish" is sometimes to be "human". He did what he wanted to do - what he (or his parents) thought was best for him. Sure, I would have preferred that he had stayed in Quebec - that probably would have been more honorable. But if I'm going to chastise him for that, then I have to remember to chastise myself for a few things in my life, some of which, though clearly selfish, were actually the right choices for me at the time. In his case, in retrospect, doing what he did with the Quebec thing may not have actually been the right/smart thing for him to do - but that's just a misjudgment - we have all done that too.
But, aside from the Quebec thing, it does appear from things such as Eric DesJardin saying, "It's all I, I, I, I, I" about Lindros, that it's fair to somehow classify Lindros in a not so positive light, whether the word be "selfish", "arrogant", "jerk-like" or whatever. Of course, that's not his WHOLE story, but it's a big enough part of it to be noted.
Last point - Beans - was there a Chinook Wind in Edmonton today or something? Wake up on the wrong side of the igloo? I wasn't comparing Lindros to Orr, nor was I saying that you said that Orr shouldn't be in the Hall. I was just responding to your comment,
"I have a hard time looking at a guy for the HOF without a solid 12-15+ year career with 10 of those(min) as outstanding."
My point was that IF you were to apply what you say above strictly (IF - I wasn't saying you were saying to do so), Orr wouldn't have made it to the Hall. So it follows that it is legitimate to at least consider guys who have had shorter periods of outstanding achievement. Lindros had about seven. Should it be difficult to get in with seven unless you are Orr? Absolutely YES, but as has been noted, some have, and as I have said, for me the test is, did the guy leave an unforgettable impression. Personally, those of us who saw him in his prime, I think we are going to CLEARLY remember THE BIG E! |
Edited by - andyhack on 11/08/2007 20:53:25 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 21:04:00
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Let's not forget the guy did more than just the Quebec thing:How about the fact he sat out in the OHL when he was drafted by the Greyhounds? He wouldn't play until he was traded to Oshawa.Then the Quebec thing happened.Then he held out in Philly. He was a headache for management everywhere he played until he was no longer hot stuff.
Then there is the rumors about his "antics" off the ice with other players wives and stuff. That rumor about Brind'Amour beating the crap out of him in the dressing room after practice is not a lie. I personally know a guy who played with Philly the year after Lindros left. It was common knowledge about that situation and most if not all of those players were elated to see the Big E head off to the Big Apple. He was a cancer in most of the dressing rooms he was in.
So Great player for a short period of time+Pain for Management+Pain for team Mates+injury plagued career=HHOF???
Not by the way I do math.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 21:30:48
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I continue to laugh at the hypocracy displayed here.
It's okay, I've heard it for years in Lindros's case. What a terrible person he is for not going to Quebec when they drafted, him...Oh boohoo, you have to play for the team that picks you, that's just how it works.
Watching PrimeTime Sports today, they suggested that really, when you get down to it, the draft is illegal, except for the fact that it is a part of collective bargaining. How can you tell someone where they are to be employed? Really?
In what other profession aside from sports are you bound like that, where you HAVE to work for someone just because they choose you? Are hockey players indentured servants, or slaves?
If you were offered a job tomorrow at 9:00 am by a company that gave you the hebee-geebees, maybe because the manager seemed a little wacky, perhaps an embezzler but you were not sure, and you know you could work anywhere you darn well wanted because dozens of other places want you....you're telling me you HAVE to take the first option because they picked you? That, my friend, is what you are saying. Exactly the same thing.
How is it different? Because he should be "honored" to be chosen? What a load of crap. Wade Belak should be honored to be in the NHL. Lindros was a sure thing. Just like a high school dropout should be honored to have a job at McDonalds, but for a college graduate, it's a pathetic option.
The Greyhounds argument is even more ridiculous. Aside from hockey, who in the world would fault a 15 year old for wanting to play a GAME close to his home? Who would fault his parents for wanting him close to home???? Funny, I actually think that's good parenting. Better than sending him to play under Graham James or something. I'd do the same with my kid.
Why are hockey players (15 or otherwise) held to a different standard? As the guy on PrimeTime said, people who are angry are angry not because of the moral issue, they are angry because of JEALOUSY. Jealous that they have no skill that affords them such options as Eric had. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 21:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Then there is the rumors about his "antics" off the ice with other players wives and stuff. That rumor about Brind'Amour beating the crap out of him in the dressing room after practice is not a lie. I personally know a guy who played with Philly the year after Lindros left. It was common knowledge about that situation and most if not all of those players were elated to see the Big E head off to the Big Apple. He was a cancer in most of the dressing rooms he was in.
This is not true. I heard that rumour when it came out like everyone else. So I checked it out. I'd like to know your source, because I have another extremely relaible one that says this is a total fabrication that went around but had no basis in truth whatsoever. Urban myths do not equal truth. A fight did occur, but if you have been around dressing rooms like I have been all my life, fights between teammates are hardly an uncommon event. The reason you stated it occurred is COMPLETELY FALSE. There was an incident, but you are way off on your details, as was everyone else who tossed that little rumour around.
My source is Rod Brind'Amour's roommate and teammate at Notre Dame who has remained friends with Roddy to this day. His wife and my wife were great friends in university, and she and I had a couple of classes together, too.
Anyway...Kevin Dineen on PrimeTime today said Eric was the model teammate, and a good friend. Bobby Clarke even said the same thing on TSN last night. He said it was Eric's parents, not Eric himself, that was the problem. Why is it that not one single person connected to Lindros has ever had anything bad to say about him publicly, and that the only comments about his character come from people on boards like this or in the media?
JEALOUSY.
As Bob MacKenzie said, "He's big, he's rich, he's good looking, and he's extremely intelligent. People were bound to hate him (laughs)." I ain't laughing. I'm nodding.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 22:18:19
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Just read this:
"Lindros donates $5 million to hospital and announces retirement from NHL"
the link - http://www.news1130.com/news/sports/article.jsp?content=s110871A
What a "selfish" person, huh guys?
Seek the truth, not urban myths, rumors and mighta happeneds. |
Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/08/2007 22:18:51 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 22:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
Just read this:
"Lindros donates $5 million to hospital and announces retirement from NHL"
the link - http://www.news1130.com/news/sports/article.jsp?content=s110871A
What a "selfish" person, huh guys?
Seek the truth, not urban myths, rumors and mighta happeneds.
The truth is usually in between.
I know a business guy who gives loads to charity. S***loads! But he is also a selfish prick who has screwed over many a poor soul in his life. The two things are not mutually exclusive.
That was just to make a point. I don't think Lindros is necessarily a bad guy or anything.
I think you get my take on this though, Flyguy - "selfish' is just a label. We can call the Quebec thing "Looking out for Number 1' or something else, maybe with less negative connotations, if you want. Regardless of what we call it, the guy did what he thought was best for him - not caring a whole lot about Quebec or anything else. Personally, I don't think the Quebec thing was SUCH a BAD thing, but that's due partially to my views on human nature.
Anyway, he does seem to have a bit of a bad rep, and often where there is smoke, there is fire. Is the Desjardin comment that I mentioned before not true? Any inside scoop on that? I have heard it quoted quite a number of times tonight. Maybe it's not, I don't know.
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2007 : 23:14:30
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Not sure about the "I..I...I" thing with Desjardins. Never heard that one way or the other. I know Eric Desjardins became captain after Lindros was stripped of it because he complained about the Flyer's medical staff almost letting him die of internal bleeding. The complaining bothered Clarke, who I guess figured Lindros and his dad should not be so upset about a little thing like bleeding to death in a hotel bathtub.
Just for the record, if my team doctor told me to go ice my ribs, and I was bleeding to death internally with a punctured lung, I'd be a tad upset, too.
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Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 11/08/2007 23:15:42 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 09:44:47
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Fly, my source is someone who trusted me with information and I will not post his name publicly. He is a current NHL player. And like I said, played in Philly the year after Lindros left. The stuff he told me was based on stuff he got from the guys that were in the dressing room. I trust and believe what he said. I've know the guy since the 3rd grade and never was he one to make stuff up.
I like Andy's point. The truth is in the middle somewhere.
And as for what players say about him now, I could care less. Most, if not all NHL players will back each other to the end in the media, especially when they retire. But that is not really how it is. For example, I have a close business relationship with the brother of a former NHLer. Having the chance to golf with this former NHL a few times, he gave me great insight into the Oilers Dressing room about 4 years ago and the fact that there were a couple of players that mostly everyone on the team absolutely hated. These guys were darlings in the media as well. I won't go into details as I won't betray the trust of the people that were good enough to talk with me about it.
Things in the locker rooms are not always how they portray them in the media. Spending time around the NHL locker rooms as you have, you should know this as well. To prove my point, try to find an interview with any NHL player that bad mouths a current or former team mate?? I would try myself, but I know when I am wasting my time.
I have a really hard time believe that this guy, who basically used his natural talents to write what ever rules he wanted where ever he went was the utmost pro team mate. That just doesn't make sense.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 12:45:12
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I wouldn't say I'm in on the locker room goings on of the NHL, but I have a bit of insight. I know who you are talking about in Edmonton. I heard those stories too, and like any rumor, their is probably a hint of truth and a bunch of exaggeration.
I'm not saying Lindros was a quireboy who kept his mouth shut. What I am saying is he elicits the type of response that is out of whack with reality. Hockey people (true hockey people, not goofs like us) all say he was a pretty good guy. There may be a few who don't, but I'm sure you could find a few guys who are jealous of Steve Yzerman's attention in Detroit, too.
Should Lindros have played in Quebec? Yeah, probably. But oh well, he didn't. Was it a crime? Was it a terrible act? Was it even "bad"? The answer to all of these is no.
So why is he a villian? Because as an 18 year old kid, he listened to his parents? How ridiculous.
This is exactly the reason I started that other thread about how we love to hate our superstars in this country. To a man, players will say Lindros was the #1 player in the world for a brief period. Do we celebrate that? No (well, I do). No, people dwell on the negatives, which by comparison are probably negligable (and wasn't Eric's draft decision the same thing Mario Lemieux did, with the only difference being Mario was forced to play with the Pens???).
We need to stop eating our young in this country.
And Captain Canada is not a bad guy, either. Stories are just stories. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 13:39:54
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Fly, I do agree with your last comment on this. Unfortunately, hockey players are very much like soccer players in Europe or Baseball/Football players in the states. It has become more than the game. There is an expectation for hockey players in Canada to be heros. We all want our guys to be like Bobby Orr, Gordie Howe, or Wayne Gretzky. Not all can be, and when they aren't, they get eaten alive.
If you look by on my posts, I said that if you base it by on ice play, Lindros is there with the best of them.
Just to rub in a little salt thought, what would you opinion be if his name was Eric Lindrosvski???
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 14:01:13
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Actually, he IS Eric Lindrosvski!!!! But when he was 4, he refused to report to the Ovazinskyova Kindergarten, and that changed the course of his life (and started a trend of kids holding out on kindergartens throughout Russia)!
Well guys, how about Cam Neely then? If you don't think Eric belongs in the Hall, do you think Cam should be out? Take a look at his numbers:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=3930
I know it's not all about numbers, but still, looking at them does make you wonder, well why not put Eric in then?
I think the major differences are expectations (though highly touted, noone called Neely the "Next One") and people's perceptions of Lindros due to the off-ice stuff.
Edit - in fact, I wonder whether Neely benefits from, in a way, the opposite career path of Lindros. People forget that Neely was a bit of a disappointment in Vancouver. Though expectations were still probably high by the time Sinden made that brilliant trade for him, I think from that point on in his career he probably exceeded all expectations of him after the three so-so Vancouver years.
And in the last years of his career he was still playing at a very high level (unlike Lindros) - that may be a very key distinction in the comparison actually.
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Edited by - andyhack on 11/09/2007 14:52:50 |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 16:34:43
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hey fly4apuckguy, that is a pretty funny point about the draft being illegal.......I know, I slam a lot of your comments, but that is a pretty good/humorous point. Sports are pretty much the only job where you're told WHERE to work..Sure you could make the case, these guys are employees for the NHL....but in most other jobs, you have the free will to say, NO, i'm not moving....I don't exactly agree with what you said, I think players should honor where they get drafted...But just the way you put it, I can see where you're coming from.
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 16:39:50
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as for the Lindros donating $5 million big ones....For those of you who didn't know, Harold Ballard was one of the more charitable owners in NHL history, but I don't think any of us look up to Harold Ballard as a hero (that's for all of you out there aware of who Ballard was: perhaps the most bizarre owner in sports history. if any of you have spare time on your hands, read about this guy...it is wild stuff).
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2007 : 16:51:51
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I'm an honest person, even when it hurts my point. If he was a Russian, I'd probably dislike Lindrosvski, instead of rationalizing his actions as much as I do. Probably. I don't know for sure.
I don't think there is any question that Cam Neely (one of my all-time favourite players, also) benefitted from the fact that he started slow and got better and better, instead of the reverse. The whole "work your way up from nothing" kind of feel-good story people love.
Cam's in the Hall, so should be Big E. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 20:32:58
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Thanks to everyone who has voted. As I suspected, the numbers are split up a lot, just like opinions on the Big E. always have been.
I apologize for some of the choices sounding the same, but I was trying to make sure all the quotes I'd heard about him in the past were represented. |
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-Al-
Top Prospect
Canada
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2007 : 23:13:40
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It seems like I'm a bit late in adding this, but just thought I'd add my opinion.
Lindros undoubtedly belongs in the HHOF. He posted points at a pace greater than 1 point per game for the first 9 years of his career. In the 4 years that followed, before his retirement on Thursday, his injuries caught up to him, and he just couldn't do it anymore. Despite this, he still ended his career with an average 1.138 points per game. Had he not been plagued by injuries, and kept the 1.312 point per game pace of his first 9 seasons, he would have recorded about 132 more points in the 760 games he played...
Now compare the numbers this pace could have given him through 1487 games, the number of games played by Wayne Gretzky. Had he not been plagued by injuries, and maintained his scoring pace, he could have recorded 871 goals and 1079 assists, good for 1950 career points. That would place him second all-time in career point and goal scoring, and tied with Adam Oates for the sixth spot in career assists. Now consider that Gretzky is only 13th all-time in games played, and you'll see that those are pretty impressive statistics. Had Lindros played until he surpassed Gretzky's goal total, he could have moved up to 11th all-time in games played, with 1528, 1st all-time in goal scoring with 895, and could have become only the second player to surpass 2000 points, recording 2004. He also could have taken sole possession of 6th all-time in assists with 1109.
These are only projected statistics, but when you consider them and see what he could have done in his career had he not been plagued by injuries, you can see that there's no doubt he was a talented player. I also think the injuries are even more reason to add him to the HHOF, as he was still able to maintain better than one point per game throughout the entirety of his career despite them. |
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LeafsFan4Life
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 00:21:39
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| Personally i think Lindros's brother Brett was the better player, personally dont like Lindros after he did not wanna play in my little town when he was a junior. I don't think he belongs in the HHOF, because he was not that great of a player more an ave player. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2007 : 00:32:29
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| When I think average player I think Robert Lang, Marco Strum, Richard Zednik and Anson Carter. Actually I even consider these guys slightly to above average. How can you possibly rationalize comparing Lindros to these players as average. Your average NHL player is your 3rd and 4th line guys, not your go to guys, team leaders, points leaders and Hart Trophy winners. |
Edited by - MSC on 11/11/2007 00:51:23 |
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Eric Lindros To Retire Thursday - An Opinion Poll 
Topic Locked
