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KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
297 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2007 : 17:45:00
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Azeman(a guy on this forum) and I go to school together. We have been argueing for awhile. He thinks Lidstrom is the best defensemen of all-time ahead of Orr, Bourque, Coffey etc. and won't stop commenting about it. I think he's crazy at thinking that, where do you guys think Lidstrom ranks and who are the top 5 defense of all-time? I think maybe this might shut him up.
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Edited by - KariyaSelanne on 11/13/2007 17:45:57
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 17:51:34
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| I think Lidstrom ranks out of my top 5. My top 5 of all time defenseman would be (in no particular order) , Orr, Coffey, Bourque, Harvey and Larry Robinson. But Lidstrom is probably 6th or 7th. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 17:57:19
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Orr, Potvin, Park, Bourque, Coffey(arguable as he was not great defensively), and Robinson are definately ahead of Lidstrom on my list.
Other to mention would be Pilote, Langway, Wilson, Chelios, Neidermayer, MacInnis, Stevens, maybe even Pronger and Blake.
I would say Lidstrom would be in the top 10, maybe in some people's top 5, but there has yet to be anyone to touch Orr.
Realistically, Orr should hold the 1 through 10th spots, then the next guy should be 11th all time.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 18:19:46
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| For me it's Orr, Coffey, Bourque, Harvey, Robinson, Potvin, MacInnis...now we can talk Lidstom. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 18:30:58
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
For me it's Orr, Coffey, Bourque, Harvey, Robinson, Potvin, MacInnis...now we can talk Lidstom.
No Brad Park?? The guy finished 2nd in Norris Voting 6 out of 8 years. The only reason he didn't win most of those was a guy named Bobby. When he retired, only Orr had more point and he's still 11th all time. OF his 18 season, his team missed the playoffs only once with him as the 1 or 2 d-man on the team.
I dunno, he's top 5 in my books.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 18:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
For me it's Orr, Coffey, Bourque, Harvey, Robinson, Potvin, MacInnis...now we can talk Lidstom.
No Brad Park?? The guy finished 2nd in Norris Voting 6 out of 8 years. The only reason he didn't win most of those was a guy named Bobby. When he retired, only Orr had more point and he's still 11th all time. OF his 18 season, his team missed the playoffs only once with him as the 1 or 2 d-man on the team.
I dunno, he's top 5 in my books.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!!
Haha....great minds think alike, I guess...I had typed Brad Park, and then backspaced....he was that close.
To be brutally honest, I just know a lot less about him as a player than the other guys on my list. Yes, I am admitting a lack of knowledge on a subject. Mark this date on your calendars. |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 19:05:48
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Lidstrom doesn't make my top ten, not to metion ahead of guys like Bourque, Orr Coffey etc.
My top ten in no particualr order
Orr
Bourque
Park
Coffey
Harvey
Potvin
Robinson
Housley
Leetch
Macinnis
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 20:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Greg Smith
Lidstrom doesn't make my top ten, not to metion ahead of guys like Bourque, Orr Coffey etc.
My top ten in no particualr order
Orr
Bourque
Park
Coffey
Harvey
Potvin
Robinson
Housley
Leetch
Macinnis
Good list, except I'd say Lidstrom is ahead of Housley. Terrific offensive player in a high scoring era, but not as good as Lidstrom either offensively or defensively. Leetch is close, though. I always thought when he was on his game, Leetch could be dominant offensively, which is something Lidstrom never really has been...more steady than dominant. Just my opinion. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2007 : 21:23:00
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If we're talking all time here's how I see it.
Orr
Harvey
Shore
Park
Bourque
Potvin
Robinson
Kelly
Chelios
Fetisov
Lidstrom
Pilote
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2007 : 06:06:02
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quote:
Originally posted by KariyaSelanne
Azeman(a guy on this forum) and I go to school together. We have been argueing for awhile. He thinks Lidstrom is the best defensemen of all-time ahead of Orr, Bourque, Coffey etc. and won't stop commenting about it. I think he's crazy at thinking that, where do you guys think Lidstrom ranks and who are the top 5 defense of all-time? I think maybe this might shut him up.
It looks like you are both young teenagers, and I find it very difficult to rate a player, or players that you have never seen.
You can look at stats, but they can be miss leading, depending on the era they played in, and on the teams they stared for.
Watching a hi light reel of video only shows the best of a player, not the mediocre plays, or bad plays, if they made any...
Orr, Harvey, Coffey, Robinson, Potvin...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2007 : 09:01:42
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I think he's the best defensive defenceman of all time. The other guys were great because they put the puck in the net and racked up the points. But strictly from a defensive aspect, Lidstrom is close to #1 of not #1.
Unfortunately, I never got to see Orr or Harvey play, however, he's 1 away from tying Harvey with Norris wins, and he's already tied with Bourque.
Go Wings Go! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2007 : 09:25:18
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quote:
Originally posted by hkalirah
I think he's the best defensive defenceman of all time. The other guys were great because they put the puck in the net and racked up the points. But strictly from a defensive aspect, Lidstrom is close to #1 of not #1.
Unfortunately, I never got to see Orr or Harvey play, however, he's 1 away from tying Harvey with Norris wins, and he's already tied with Bourque.
Go Wings Go!
Harvey has 7 Norris nods.
I can name a dozen guys better than Lidstrom from the defensive aspect. Every guy I put on the list in my previous post in fact.
In my opinion Lidstrom has 5 Norris trophies because for the most part he hasn't been competing with any all time great defencemen. When he was against them he didn't win.
I'm not saying he isn't a great defenceman, he is. But he didn't face the level of competition of say Bourque who has 5 Norris nods while playing against guys like Chelios, Coffey, Robinson, Potvin, MacInnis etc...
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
Edited by - willus3 on 11/14/2007 09:26:30 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2007 : 13:38:15
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Willus, totally agree. Taking nothing away from Lidstrom, who is a top tem all time D-man, but his only real competition has been Pronger and Neidermayer. Those three guys have won the past 7 Norris Trophies. Listrom will likely win again this year.
Really, in the league today, it's Pronger and Lidstrom. Zubov is about the only other guy that belongs at the top. The rest of the d-men in the league are a distance behind those three.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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KariyaSelanne
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
297 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2007 : 15:24:34
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
quote:
Originally posted by KariyaSelanne
Azeman(a guy on this forum) and I go to school together. We have been argueing for awhile. He thinks Lidstrom is the best defensemen of all-time ahead of Orr, Bourque, Coffey etc. and won't stop commenting about it. I think he's crazy at thinking that, where do you guys think Lidstrom ranks and who are the top 5 defense of all-time? I think maybe this might shut him up.
It looks like you are both young teenagers, and I find it very difficult to rate a player, or players that you have never seen.
You can look at stats, but they can be miss leading, depending on the era they played in, and on the teams they stared for.
Watching a hi light reel of video only shows the best of a player, not the mediocre plays, or bad plays, if they made any...
Orr, Harvey, Coffey, Robinson, Potvin...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
Yeah we are 14, so thats why I asked the people on the forum because most people I know never got a chance to watch guys like Orr, Coffey etc. . |
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Greg Smith
Rookie
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2007 : 15:26:50
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| beans, your forgetting a couple of guys who in my mind are also amazing. Phaneuf, young and talented. I also think Regehr is very good, just he doesn't get the credit he desereves because he isn't an offensive defenseman. |
Edited by - Greg Smith on 11/14/2007 15:29:20 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2007 : 15:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by hkalirah
I think he's the best defensive defenceman of all time. The other guys were great because they put the puck in the net and racked up the points. But strictly from a defensive aspect, Lidstrom is close to #1 of not #1.
Unfortunately, I never got to see Orr or Harvey play, however, he's 1 away from tying Harvey with Norris wins, and he's already tied with Bourque.
Go Wings Go!
I understand you are young, so I realize that this comment is made out of a lack of experience watching the game over the years...
Lidstrom has been a very good defenseman for a number of years now, and has won 5 Norris Trophies. Excellent. But you can't dismiss what Beans and willus are saying. As guys who have seen the best, and can compare them to Lidstrom, there really is no comparison to make. Lidstrom is no Raymond Bourque. He's no Paul Coffey. And he sure as heck is no Bobby Orr.
No, not even close, guy. Watch ESPN Classics, I'm serious. It's like comparing Paul Kariya and Wayne Gretzky. Some similarities, but not really in the same universe, you know?
Lidstrom is a product of not only a lack of competition, but a different era of the game. We often talk around here about the dead puck era, but we rarely talk about how boring the position of defence has become.
When I was young, Orr was getting 85-100 or more assists in a year!! 100!!! And 120+ points!!! Think about it, Sidney Crosby (the annointed Next One) got that many playing centre last year. Coffey had a 48 goal season. Imagine a defenseman getting anywhere close to that now!
Now when Gonchar gets 25 goals and 65 points, we're ready to crown him some kind of scoring hero, even when he's a -25. Defencemen are really mediocre right now, if you think about it. |
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Azeman
Top Prospect
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2007 : 07:49:48
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I still think that lidstrom is the best d-man of all time. Ya i agree that orr and harvery etc. were all good but everyone talks about them because they racked up points. See everyone looks at the goals. assits, points and all that stuff. But no one ever pays attention to the +/- (if you dont what +/- is its when your on for a goal you get a plus and if your on for the other team goal you get a minus). Lidstrom has been dominating that area. See hes good defensevly and offenseivly. And he makes every single play look easy. i dont think he takes the ballot by a long shot, but hes the best defenseman. Not the best offensive defensman or has the hardest shot, but the best all-around defensman
GO WINGS GO!!!! |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2007 : 08:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Azeman
I still think that lidstrom is the best d-man of all time. Ya i agree that orr and harvery etc. were all good but everyone talks about them because they racked up points. See everyone looks at the goals. assits, points and all that stuff. But no one ever pays attention to the +/- (if you dont what +/- is its when your on for a goal you get a plus and if your on for the other team goal you get a minus). Lidstrom has been dominating that area. See hes good defensevly and offenseivly. And he makes every single play look easy. i dont think he takes the ballot by a long shot, but hes the best defenseman. Not the best offensive defensman or has the hardest shot, but the best all-around defensman
GO WINGS GO!!!!
Do you know what Orr's +/- rating is, for his career, and his season's best?
Career +/- Leaders
Name +/-
1 Larry Robinson 729
2 Bobby Orr 585
3 Ray Bourque 528
4 Denis Potvin 460
5 Brad McCrimmon 444
6 Serge Savard 428
7 Mark Howe 400
8 Scott Stevens 393
9 Al MacInnis 374
10 Dallas Smith 366
11 Brad Park 358
12 Chris Chelios 341
13 Nick Lidstrom 338
14 Guy Lapointe 329
15 Bill Hajt 321
16 Andre Dupont 300
17 Paul Coffey 294
18 Jimmy Watson 287
19 Rod Langway 277
20 Kevin Lowe 255
21 Jacq Laperriere 241
22 Charlie Huddy 239
23 Jim Schoenfeld 237
24 Petr Svoboda 206
25 Mike Ramsey 205
Season +/- Leaders
PLAYER YEAR TEAM +/-
1 ORR, BOBBY 1971 BOS 124
2 ROBINSON, LARRY 1977 MTL 120
3 SMITH, DALLAS 1971 BOS 94
4 ORR, BOBBY 1972 BOS 86
5 HOWE, MARK 1986 PHI 85
6 ORR, BOBBY 1974 BOS 84
7 McCRIMMON, BRAD 1986 PHI 83
8 ORR, BOBBY 1975 BOS 80
9 SAVARD, SERGE 1977 MTL 79
10 ENGBLOM, BRIAN 1982 MTL 78
11 LAPERRIERE,JACQ 1973 MTL 78
12 POTVIN, DENIS 1979 NYI 71
13 ROBINSON, LARRY 1978 MTL 71
14 SAVARD, SERGE 1975 MTL 71
15 SAVARD, SERGE 1973 MTL 70
16 SMITH, RICK 1978 BOS 70
17 LAPOINTE, GUY 1977 MTL 69
18 PARK, BRAD 1978 BOS 68
19 LANGWAY, ROD 1982 MTL 66
20 ORR, BOBBY 1969 BOS 65
21 WATSON, JIM 1976 PHI 65
22 LAPOINTE, GUY 1976 MTL 64
23 SIMS, AL 1974 BOS 64
24 ENGBLOM, BRIAN 1981 MTL 63
25 PARK, BRAD 1972 NYR 62
You +/- theory does not hold up...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Edited by - PuckNuts on 11/23/2007 09:00:28 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2007 : 08:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Azeman
I still think that lidstrom is the best d-man of all time. Ya i agree that orr and harvery etc. were all good but everyone talks about them because they racked up points. See everyone looks at the goals. assits, points and all that stuff. But no one ever pays attention to the +/- (if you dont what +/- is its when your on for a goal you get a plus and if your on for the other team goal you get a minus). Lidstrom has been dominating that area. See hes good defensevly and offenseivly. And he makes every single play look easy. i dont think he takes the ballot by a long shot, but hes the best defenseman. Not the best offensive defensman or has the hardest shot, but the best all-around defensman
GO WINGS GO!!!!
Harvey didn't rack up points. He was great offensively but go look up his numbers.
And like Pucknuts asked, do you know what Orr's plus minus is? Do yourself a favour and look it up.
http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?page=HistoricalPlayerDetail&pkey=8450070&service=page
There, you don't even have to look it up. just click on the link.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2007 : 09:02:07
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If you went by +/- alone then Robinson would be the greatest...
+/- stats have only been recorded since 1968...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2007 : 09:23:50
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Isn't it amazing what being paired with a great d-man will do for you.
Dallas Smith was a fortunate man.
"I'm a man of principle... or not. Whatever the situation calls for." - Alan Shore |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2007 : 09:32:16
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| Could someone explain to me what the "dead puck area" is? I am not familiar with this term. As far as the topic goes I have watched pretty much all the defencemen mentioned and can honestly say that Orr was the best I have ever seen. Unfortunately, as mentioned in your posts,. we have guys playing in all the different era's of hockey. I can't judge judge by how many Norris Trophies weather one guy is better than another. For instance, Orr's career was hampered by knee problems and I can only make my personal judgement on seeing him play when he is healthy. There have been so many great ones it is almost impossible to choose!!!!!! I will try, Old Timer - Eddie Shore.......50's - Doug Harvey.......60's-70's.......Bobby Orr......... 80's-90's Paul Coffey.....Modern Era........Jury Is Still Out but I like Neiderrmeyer. |
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Guest4912
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Posted - 11/23/2007 : 09:54:27
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| realistically, Lidstrom should be in the top 6 because of teh amount of Norris trophies he has accumulated, he has 4 since 2000 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2007 : 12:18:54
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The Dead Puck Era is considered somewhere between 1994 and 2003. The time was the lowest scoring period since 67 and the typical game was a lot of clutching, grabbing, hooking and holding. As well, many of the team were employing the trap system and it was highly effective in limiting offensive, especially since the Red Line-2 line pass was still in effect.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2007 : 11:35:09
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| Thanks Beans15. It had me a little baffled as I have not heard the term before. |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2007 : 11:36:02
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| Thanks Beans15. It had me a little baffled as I have not heard the term before. |
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Topic |
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Where Does Lidstrom Rank? 
