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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2008 : 15:25:30
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If Ovechkin had the heart that sid or iginla, for example had, would he be the best player in the NHL. He doesn't try his hardest, when he loses the puck, sometimes he just gives up. If he tried his very hardest and had more potential, he could very well bethe most complete player in the league.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go!
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Guest8815
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Posted - 01/23/2008 : 16:04:48
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3 Words: He Has Heart.
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 17:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8815
3 Words: He Has Heart.
read this post very carefully before you jump all over me,,,, think about it for one second then respond,,,,, i agree nash, hes got shades of the rocket when he gets the puck and when he decides to go get someone in th corner or go get the puck,,,, but i have seen him lots of times just give up on a play i kinda think he may turn out as a better kovalev ,,,,,, be completely dominant when he wants to be and then slack off at other times,,,
Pasty |
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Guest0216
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Posted - 01/23/2008 : 17:34:40
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| Ovechkin's all heart!! |
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Guest8815
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Posted - 01/23/2008 : 17:51:11
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| Of course he doesn't try his hardest on defense. I bet Boudreau (Sp?) has him stay near the point and save his energy for a fast break or if they are in the offensive zone. My coach says to my star forwards who are all O and no D. To cover the point man and let the others get the puck and send it to them. And Crosby can be compared to Gretz yet Ovechkin is compared to Kovalev? No way in hell. And no I am not jumping all over you I read and respect your opinion, so heres mine: Ovechkin is better than Crosby. Neither are as good as Gretz. Both will have amazing careers and dominate this league for years to come. I'd compare Ovechkin to say Phil Espo. And Crosby to say Oates. Those aren't the best comparisons but close to them. |
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Guest9491
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Posted - 01/23/2008 : 18:05:23
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Big surprise that another Russian gets labeled as not having heart. Since we're stereo-typing, you people are all the same.
You look for reasons to say that, where with any star player, they take shifts off. It's not opinion, it's a fact. When you've been on the ice for 30-35 seconds and a play is just starting to develop in the corner, you bide your time.
Also, by your standards, Nick Lidstrom is lazy. A guy who is rarely out of position doesn't have to work as hard.
Call it what you want. Ovechkin loves the game. He reminds me of Pavel Bure, but with a mean streak. Bure was getting up there in years and playing for a lousy Florida team. He got PUMPED like it was his first goal every time he scored. I loved that about him.
It's ok, you can say it. Canadians tend to be biased and protective of their own. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 18:32:45
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You know what, you are not that good without hard. He might be LAZY. He might be non existent on DEFENSE. He might not be AGGRESSIVE.
But he has heart. When he has the puck, he gives it his all. When he has a good chance to get the puck, he gives it his all.
You all saw the goal. THE goal. You think he doesn't love to score? You think he doesn't live and breathe goals?
Two words:
Think again.
Habs get number 25 this year |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 19:12:34
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In my mind Ovechkin has heart. No question.
But if you look not to far down that bench for the Washington Capitals you see a player by the name of Alexander Semin. He has NO heart at all. He in my mind, has almost just as much skill if not more then Ovechkin. That kid has really nice hands and a great shot. But he does not try at all. Ovechkin does and that's why he is on pace for over 60 goals. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 20:27:46
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I gotta disagree with this forum.
I think that Ovechkin has a ton of heart. He takes few shifts off but no more than anyone else and he works hard in most cases. I agree with the Russian Stereotyping going on here. Seriously, although I have watched a limited amount of Ovechkin,I have never watch a game where he wasn't giving it all on the ice.
Here's an example of Ovechkin's heart. The World Junior Gold Medal game in 04/05. Anyone remember that game?? Phaneuf must have layed a huge hit on Ovechkin at least 4 times. And I mean big hits. Ovechkin played as long as he could, until his team doctors made him not dress for the 3 period. He actually missed 2 months after that game because his shoulder was separated so badly. What do he do?? He hit the gym hard and comes into the NHL a totally agressive, body checking player.
In my books, that's Heart.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 20:44:14
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Well I just finished watching the Leafs beat Ovechkin, and the Capitols, and I pointed this out to my son that there are some people that do not think that he has heart...
When I explained to my son that it is because "He doesn't try his hardest, when he loses the puck, sometimes he just gives up." He laughed, and said the only time I could see him in that position would be at the end of his 2 min power play shift, and he was more than likely just plan exhausted...
well I watched him in every shift he played tonight, and paid special attention to see if he does not try all the time, well I have to tell you he tried the hardest every single shift...in fact he was the only player that I believe gave all he had every shift on both teams...
Of coarse you know that this means war!
- - Bugs Bunny
http://www.maldesigns.ca/top50since1967.htm
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2008 : 23:54:21
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i ve never seen him play defensivly in my life once the pucks behind him he gives up,,, he sees no time on the pk why hes got one thing in mind offense the best players in the league play both ends of the rink
by the way did i even mention crosby or greztky ?? no so read before you post!
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 01/24/2008 00:00:17 |
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vanillagorilla
Top Prospect
Canada
24 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 04:00:48
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do some of you guys even have cable....sid the kid meets his goalie in the shower guys...follow him on defence, not just offence....everyone is just nit-picking players...this guy this, this guy that.....every and i mean every player will have flaws....wayne had them, mario had them....noone is above being "flawed"....i'll take a line of ovechkins on my team anytime....
happy 40th anniversary leaf lemmings |
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Guest8332
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Posted - 01/24/2008 : 05:38:56
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they also mentioned on tsn last nite during the game that his production went UP once he signed the jig deal rather than down which seems to always be the norm.
I dunno about him NOT being the best player in the nhl.. hes certainly led a lousy Washington team to respectability |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 05:45:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8815
I'd compare Ovechkin to say Phil Espo. And Crosby to say Oates. Those aren't the best comparisons but close to them.
Not the best comparisons? Those are terrible comparisons, without taking too much away from 2 good players.
Esposito was pretty great in the prime of his career. So if you are comparing a 3rd year or when he was 22, Ovechkin is putting up numbers that are nearly twice as good with little talent around him. Ovechkin's Russian style of play is evident in how he plays the puck, which is also fundamentally different than the tapes I've seen of Esposito. Ovechkin is significantly smaller relative to present day players and unable to physically dominate the game like Espo.
Oates only once got more points than Crosby did last year in a much higher scoring era of hockey. He didn't reach 102, which Crosby did his rookie year until his fifth year in the league. And Crosby didn't have weapons around him and played on a losing team his rookie year, so don't tell me that the reason Oates didn't score more was because he was on a bad team. He only had 4 100+ point seasons when more goals were being scored. You would be terribly remiss if you don't believe Crosby will do this far more than 4 times. The only thing these two have in common is their build. But you wouldn't say Jaromir Jagr and Georges Laraque are comparable players, would you (both 6'3", 240lbs)? |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 10:56:50
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Did anybody actually read my comment?
When did I say Ovechkin had no heart? Other than maybe the title.
Ovechkin has heart, I'm not doubting that. If you watch the guy night in and night out though, he stands at the blueline when his team gets the puck and walks into the offensivezone with it. After he loses the puck, he either goes off for a change or skates slowly back to his defensive end if the player he was chasing is too far ahead of him. If he went back as hard as he could and fought for pucks, he could easily be at the top of the league right next to Crosby.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 11:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
Did anybody actually read my comment?
When did I say Ovechkin had no heart? Other than maybe the title.
Ovechkin has heart, I'm not doubting that. If you watch the guy night in and night out though, he stands at the blueline when his team gets the puck and walks into the offensivezone with it. After he loses the puck, he either goes off for a change or skates slowly back to his defensive end if the player he was chasing is too far ahead of him. If he went back as hard as he could and fought for pucks, he could easily be at the top of the league right next to Crosby.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go!
I don't really know about that. If he skated his hardest two ways, don't you think something, i.e. his stamina, would give? He is able to blow by guys on offence and be physically and mentally strong, because he has a reservoir of energy to feed off of late in the game.
Habs get number 25 this year |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 11:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
In my mind Ovechkin has heart. No question.
But if you look not to far down that bench for the Washington Capitals you see a player by the name of Alexander Semin. He has NO heart at all. He in my mind, has almost just as much skill if not more then Ovechkin. That kid has really nice hands and a great shot. But he does not try at all. Ovechkin does and that's why he is on pace for over 60 goals.
I totally agree here. I have seen Ovechkin score and Semin score. Semin just seems to have that extra bit of talent. Maybe it's a softer touch, or whatever. But the boy just doesn't seem to have heart. Ovechkin, on the other hand, seems to be going full-tilt every time I see him. He seems to score through speed, brute strength, and desire. He comes off for a line change only when HE feels like it (which is almost never!). He celebrates every goal like he's just scored the overtime winner in the cup finals. I would classify that as heart! |
Edited by - SuperSakic on 01/24/2008 11:57:57 |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 12:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
Did anybody actually read my comment?
When did I say Ovechkin had no heart? Other than maybe the title.
Ovechkin has heart, I'm not doubting that. If you watch the guy night in and night out though, he stands at the blueline when his team gets the puck and walks into the offensivezone with it. After he loses the puck, he either goes off for a change or skates slowly back to his defensive end if the player he was chasing is too far ahead of him. If he went back as hard as he could and fought for pucks, he could easily be at the top of the league right next to Crosby.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go!
I'm sorry, but when did crosby become Mr. Defense? He's not really known for his defensive skills either...I've seen Ovechkin lose the puck on a powerplay and turn back and catch the player with the puck and go right back to the powerplay again...What more does he have to do? |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 12:06:36
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Try on defense maybe, skate back to help his team...
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
Edited by - nashvillepreds on 01/24/2008 12:06:48 |
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Guest9840
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Posted - 01/24/2008 : 13:41:00
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Just to Back up SuperSakic's comment about Sid's defensive side (or lack of) vs Ovechkin's defensive side, we can go to some of the stats:
Shorthanded Time on Ice 07/08
AO - 0:08 min/game
SC - 0:48 min/game
Shorthanded Time on Ice 06/07
AO - 0:11 min/game
SC - 0:14 min/game
So Crosby has improved more here but he's still neither is playing a lot of time on the PK
Even-strength Time on Ice 07/08
AO - 17:08
SC - 15:01
Even-strength Time on Ice 06/07
AO - 15:39
SC - 14:40
PP Time, not as relevant but it puts total time on ice into perspective - Both players getting over 5 mins a game, AO with about a minute more of this time, so Overall he's being played more, and I don't think Crosby's extra 40 secs on the PK make him that much more of a defensive gem (from a time standpt at least).
More Stats
Hits
AO is 11th in the league right now with 130, SC had 41 when he got injured. in 06/07, AO finished with 184, Crosby with 55. That show's grit and heart, some of the hits must have been on the backcheck as well.
Blks
AO has 27 vs SC's 33, not a big difference. Last year AO had 44 and SC had 43, I think that's a pretty even indicator of their defense.
Give Aways/Take Aways
AO consistently has more GA and TA then Crosby but his ratio of GA/ TA is ruffly the same (1.32 vs 1.25). In 06/07 AO had 13 more GA but 30 more TA then crosby. That show's he has the heart to go after the puck more.
And Finally +/-
AO - +11 (this year), -19 (last year), +2 (rookie year) = -6 career
SC - +15 (this year), +10 (last year), -1 (rookie year) = +24 career
Here Sid has the edge, but this may be more indicative of the teams they've played on, Pittsburgh was a cup contender last year, and Washington a contender for 1st draft overall.
So there you go, you guys decide what you think. Personally I think neither one has any real edge over the other on defence.
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Guest8815
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Posted - 01/24/2008 : 13:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8815
I'd compare Ovechkin to say Phil Espo. And Crosby to say Oates. Those aren't the best comparisons but close to them.
Not the best comparisons? Those are terrible comparisons, without taking too much away from 2 good players.
Esposito was pretty great in the prime of his career. So if you are comparing a 3rd year or when he was 22, Ovechkin is putting up numbers that are nearly twice as good with little talent around him. Ovechkin's Russian style of play is evident in how he plays the puck, which is also fundamentally different than the tapes I've seen of Esposito. Ovechkin is significantly smaller relative to present day players and unable to physically dominate the game like Espo.
Oates only once got more points than Crosby did last year in a much higher scoring era of hockey. He didn't reach 102, which Crosby did his rookie year until his fifth year in the league. And Crosby didn't have weapons around him and played on a losing team his rookie year, so don't tell me that the reason Oates didn't score more was because he was on a bad team. He only had 4 100+ point seasons when more goals were being scored. You would be terribly remiss if you don't believe Crosby will do this far more than 4 times. The only thing these two have in common is their build. But you wouldn't say Jaromir Jagr and Georges Laraque are comparable players, would you (both 6'3", 240lbs)?
I wasn't relating them to there styles I was just trying to think of a good goalscorer and a good playmaker off the top of my head.
quote:
i ve never seen him play defensivly in my life once the pucks behind him he gives up,,, he sees no time on the pk why hes got one thing in mind offense the best players in the league play both ends of the rink
by the way did i even mention crosby or greztky ?? no so read before you post!
Pasty
Before you start telling me to read your post, read mine. I said and i quote "And no I am not jumping all over you I read and respect your opinion, so heres mine: Ovechkin is better than Crosby. Neither are as good as Gretz. Both will have amazing careers and dominate this league for years to come."
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Guest5054
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Posted - 01/24/2008 : 14:49:30
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| hello, ovechkin has 38 goals to lead the league on a team that isn't nearly as deep as Calgary or Pittsburgh. you have no idea that he doesn't try his hardest, the games I've seen he's always around the puck and is not afraid to get physical either. Also have not seen him whine as much as Crosby |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2008 : 15:23:01
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Would anyone on here like to question the heart of Wayne Gretzky of Mario Lemieux??
Both had a ton of heart and neither were known as defensive players.
Just because a guy isn't great defensively doesn't mean he lacks heart.
My measure of heart, the desire to win. Does Ovechkin have that??? In spades, and over many others in the league.
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 14:26:14
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Fine, I give up. I'm still stciking with my opinion that both Iginla and Crosby have more hart than Ovechkin.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
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Guest6916
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Posted - 01/25/2008 : 14:47:28
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| I never really thought that Ovechkin didn't have a heart. He seems to go hard all the time I thought, but I honestly don't see many Washington games (just the highlights) But I would agree that no one has a heart the size of Iginla's. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 09:17:22
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Hey Nash, could it be a stereotype towards Russians being lazy and Canadian's being hockey Gods???
Wayne or Bobby?? How about both!!! |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 12:30:15
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No, I think there are a lot of lazy canadians. I'm not saying Ovechkin is lazy, I just feel he doesn't try 100% every single game.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
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jschur77
Top Prospect
Canada
11 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 21:31:10
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| Ovechkin skates harder than 99% of the NHL even with that huge weight of the Washington Capitals Franchise on his back |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 23:00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
No, I think there are a lot of lazy canadians. I'm not saying Ovechkin is lazy, I just feel he doesn't try 100% every single game.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go!
I am sorry, but I am not sure what games that you watch, but every time I have seen Ovechkin play, he gives it his all every shift...
Champions take chances, and pressure is a privilege.
Billy Jean King to Maria Sharapova
http://www.maldesigns.ca/top50since1967.htm
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Edited by - PuckNuts on 01/29/2008 23:01:09 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 05:01:28
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This is a ridiculous opinion . . . not because I disagree with it, but because it clearly hasn't been thought through, as is evidenced by this long thread.
Ovechkin has tonnes of "heart", is a GRITTIER player than Crosby, and is a MUCH BETTER GOAL SCORER. Hey - I love Crosby, he's a fantastic player - but don't sell this Ovechkin kid short.
You mention Sid and Iginla in the same sentence, where I would lump Iginla and Ovechkin together as very similar players, although I think Ovie is much more talented. Crosby has heart; sure he does. Do you know how easy it would be for Ovechkin to pad his goals total (yes, PAD - as in, ADD TO) by not playing defence at all?!? On a bad team with heartless talents like Semin around, he is a +11! Cripes, look at some other great talents on bad teams - like Kovalchuk, Lecavalier, Jokinen. How do they compare? The only plus player there is Lecavalier (+3), and he's playing with St.Louis and I think Prospal now. Can you even name who Ovechkin is playing with?!?
And lastly - in my opinion, if I were picking the best player in the NHL right now, it would be a three-way tie: Alfredsson, Iginla, Ovechkin.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 13:28:51
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| Ya Nash, this is pretty dumb. Sorry but c'mon, I think you are being WAYY to stereotypical towards Ovechkin. Have you watched him play. What does he do that makes him lazy. Gve a reason and explain it? |
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Antroman
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
537 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 14:53:38
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| Man, I don't know where that accusation comes from. I was at the last Washington game in Toronto and being a Leafer, I spent half the game with my heart in my throat everytime he touched the puck.......It seemed like he had it all the time? I can honestly say I have never seen him dogging it and can only dream of having a player like him on my team some day!!!!! |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 15:17:12
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| I am not saying that Ovechkin is lazy. But, I do agree with Nash that he can be a bit moody and not always give a 100% effort. |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2008 : 07:11:18
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I'm just wondering guys, how many of Ovechkin's games have you watched?
I'm positive none of you have watched at least 30 games a year. highlights mean nothing. When the guy loses the puck or doesn't get his pass, he skates lazily back on D. If he has a chance of catching the puck he tries 100% but when there's a breakaway, no team wants the guy on the ice. there's a reason he doesn't get PK time.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
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Guest9537
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Posted - 02/01/2008 : 07:28:12
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Anyone arguing Ovechkin has no heart should watch last nights game VS Montreal.
He got hit in the face with a stick, checked into the boards and broke his nose...bleeding all over his face on the bench.
He went on to score 4 goals and 1 assist including the game winner. Not to mention he was a physical presence all night throwing big hits every chance he could.
How does anyone say no heart to that?
" * * * the kid" would have probably been crying after the high stick... |
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Guest9642
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Posted - 02/01/2008 : 07:29:19
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Ahhhhh... when the other team has a breakaway already, the only player on rhe ice that matters is your goalie! Unless your wanting Ovechkin to do that too? How many actual hockey games have you watched??? |
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Guest9537
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Posted - 02/01/2008 : 07:31:48
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and the reason he doesn't get penalty kill time is because he is an offensive player. He knows how to score goals and that's what you want him to do. Why waste the energy on the PK??? Does Crosby kill penalties?? Does Iginla?? Did Gretzky??
You don't send your goalie in on the forecheck... so why would you play your top offensive player on the PK if you don't need to.
Just common sense. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2008 : 07:34:09
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quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
I'm just wondering guys, how many of Ovechkin's games have you watched?
I'm positive none of you have watched at least 30 games a year. highlights mean nothing. When the guy loses the puck or doesn't get his pass, he skates lazily back on D. If he has a chance of catching the puck he tries 100% but when there's a breakaway, no team wants the guy on the ice. there's a reason he doesn't get PK time.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go!
Nash, how many Ovechkin games have you watched. I have watched about 6 or 7, and in those games he dominates the offensive zone and isn't a liability on the defensive end. He works hard every shift and after a missed pass he ALWAYS skates back hard to his end. So I don't know where you are getting your facts from. |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2008 : 07:34:46
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Ovechkin has no heart? Did you guys see last night’s games, or the highlights?
The kid takes a huge hit from Boullion, which breaks his nose, and also receives a high stick which busts his lip which required stitches.
After all that he still get’s the overtime winner which was his 4th goal of the night.
Everything with a smile on his face/
Wow, that’s all I have to say.
Go Wings Go! |
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Guest4504
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Posted - 02/01/2008 : 08:21:30
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| Naslund and like Yashin have no heart like Naslund is scared to go in the corners and Yashin is really lazy they have no heart. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2008 : 08:40:48
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Yashin, Kovalev, Lindros are all great examples of no heart. Most NHLers have it though, the vast majority carrying the pride of Canada on their shoulders 
I think that your nationality really has a lot to do with it. When was the last time a player died from the excietement of a soccer game here in Canada? Yet a couple years back I remember a story of a player literally having a heart attack scoring the O.T. goal.
It all depends how you grew up and if the sport meant something to you or it was just a way to make money.
Habs get number 25 this year |
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If Ovechkin had heart...... 
