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Guest6639
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 Posted - 02/24/2008 : 19:32:35
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According to TSN.ca http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story/?ID=230511&hubname=
Wow...what do you all think? Part of me says extremely selfish for not helping the team he claims to love so much, another part of me says, loyal guy.
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 19:53:34
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It is not Sundins fault that the Leafs have been miss managed for so many years that it comes down to trading the best player you have for a few draft picks.
I have less respect for a player that jumps ship because they feel that they want to win a cup, and the team they are on is incapable.
He will be back next season, and hopefully they can get rid of some of the dead weight, and actually put a NHL calibre team on the ice...
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img] |
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Guest6639
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Posted - 02/24/2008 : 20:20:39
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Not Sundin's fault...very true.
Sundin is still deluding himself if he thinks he is going to win a Cup with the Leafs before he retires.
What I found interesting is that he still said he would not waive "at this time." Well when then Mats? |
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Guest6639
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Posted - 02/24/2008 : 20:22:08
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"I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL Club at this time."
Why say at this time, is he planning on signing with some other team in the offseason? |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
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Guest6639
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Posted - 02/24/2008 : 20:36:47
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Rats jump off when ship is sinking...that is presenting Mats leaving in a negative light...I say good for the rats, they care about themselves.
"It is my belief that winning the Stanley Cup is the greatest thing you can achieve in hockey"
Once he retires he will regret not winning a Cup because he could not get his head around not being able to appreciate a Cup unless he was with a team from October, short-sighted thinking, in my opinion, he did not consider the big picture of his life...unless this is some negotiating ploy.
Oh well. |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 20:53:44
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Sundin is not leaving like some other players felt they had to do...Bourque...
Players that help their team win a Cup get all the respect from me, except for the ones that leave to win with a team that was already destined to win...
It is easier to go to a winning team than it is to make the team you are on a winner...
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img] |
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Guest6639
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Posted - 02/24/2008 : 21:02:47
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Well if Mats won with his new team he would be helping his team win the Cup...if Mats left to win I would respect that he cared enough about himself to set up the Leafs long term and that he cared enough about himself to reward himself with a Stanley Cup, or at least a realistic opportunity at the Cup, but by choosing to not get traded:
-Leafs do not get good assets for future
-Mats never wins Stanley Cup in his career
Lose, lose.
The fact that he said "at this time" is also suspicious to me, if he really cared about his teammates as much he is letting on he would have said something like, "I cannot leave my teammates" or "I could never leave my teammates"
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pensfan17
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
330 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 21:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
When a ship is sinking the rats jump off...
He is saying he will play for Toronto until he retires.
Sundin will sign a two year deal worth 5 mil the first, and 4 mil the second then he will retire a Leaf...
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img]
I bet Sundin will take much less money next year to try to make the club better |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 21:25:01
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You can always tell the selfish players in the league that take the maximum salary...
There are some good team players that have taken way less salary that they could have asked for, and would have been given.
Here is a link to the teams, and player salaries. After a good read come back, and let us know how selfish Sundin really is when he is the best player on the Leafs by far...
http://www.nhlnumbers.com/
[img]http://www.maldesigns.ca/top%2050%20since%201967%20banner.jpg[/img] |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 21:52:05
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If Mats Sundin was a Leaf for Life, I would say he is actually doing the team a dis-service by not waiving his NTC. As the only really marketable asset the Leafs have, he could waive it and give them a chance to get better. Consider that the rumor is Bobby Ryan and a 1st round pick(which is actually the Oilers pick) that would create something pretty positive for Leaf Nation.
What's to stop Sundin from pulling a Ryan Smyth and crying his way out of town?? I can hear it now, "I love it here and I will alway be a Leaf. I want the team to get better and this is the best way I can see it happen. I love all Leaf fans." Then, here it comes..........
He resigns in the off season.
Wow, Bobby Ryan, Mats Sundin resigned, and potentially 2 of the top 5 picks in this years draft, maybe even #1 and #2??? Toskala in net. Move a little dead weight out and work on getting better. 2 seasons and the Leafs could be a legitimate Play Off Team. What if they even won the Cup??
Sundin would instantly become the greatest Leaf of All Time by leaving and could also be the excuse the are bad for a long time to come........
I my humblist of opinions. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2008 : 22:59:35
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Mats was in a situation he could never win. I respect him for standing up for his convictions (on rental players) He's a good, no, a GREAT CAPTAIN and his players will respect him even more for not bailing. Personally I hope he does move in the summer, but until then he is bleeding blue and white with his team and that is a true leader! One of the classiest guys in the game.
Although I respect his decision to stay more, I would have fully appreciated it if he had decided to move too, he's earned it either way.
Sundin has been, and continues to be one of my favourite players of all time (and I'm not too far away from nominating him in the top 50 thread!  ) |
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MarkhamMax
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 00:13:36
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I think the problem is he doesn't want to raise the cup for another team. Certainly not as a rental.
He's steered his own ship too long. Quite simply, I think winning a cup by playing for a team for 5 minutes would be just a little anti-climatic for the guy.
For that reason, I think he's justified controlling his fate in not being herded out like cattle.
I do think however, that he will step down as a Leaf at the end of the season. It's doubtful he'll retire, and he'll still have plenty of cache left that will in turn help his team. |
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Guest6557
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Posted - 02/25/2008 : 00:41:34
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Selfishness is not measured by salary only and plus he has been a 70-80 point player for years now and at his age are you expecting him to get Thornton or Ovechkin type of money? And now it is debatable as to who the best Leaf is as Toskala has proven to be quite valuable but that is a topic for a another thread.
Yes he would be selfish because as said he passed on an a great opportunity to help the team he claims he loves so much, he stayed with the Leafs because HE does not believe in the rental player thing, he stayed with the Leafs because HE wants to retire a Leaf. If he was going to be selfish he might as well have gone all out for himself...try to win the Cup, grow the legend of Mats Sundin and simultaneously help set up the Leafs for the future which actually would have made Sundin seem like he was not selfish at all. What he is doing now is half-assed, he is not helping the Leafs long-term and he did not reward himself with the chance to win the Stanley Cup.
If he had been a Leaf his whole career I could have accepted the "retire a Leaf" thing, it would have been truly special but he is not a career long Leaf, what is the big deal about retiring a Leaf? He could still have entered the Hall Of Fame as a Leaf...even Ray Bourque cared enough about himself to reward himself with a chance at the Cup. At the end of the day it is about your career and your life, I mean who passes on a chance to win a Cup? Mats even said winning the Cup is the greatest achievement in hockey...well then? Do you not care to achieve greatness Mats, I am sure you could eventually live with the idea of winning with another team, 5-10 years from that Cup ring will bring you some deep satisfaction.
Who the heck is giving him advice...you will have to live without winning the Cup for the rest of your life Mats, nothing will make up for that, not even retiring a Leaf. Unless all this ends up being some ploy, Mats clearly has little foresight and does not believe in planning ahead. I still have it in me to admire his choice but have fun parading your Leaf jersey around Sweden and drinking out of your jockstrap. |
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Guest6557
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Posted - 02/25/2008 : 00:44:53
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkhamMax
I think the problem is he doesn't want to raise the cup for another team. Certainly not as a rental.
He's steered his own ship too long. Quite simply, I think winning a cup by playing for a team for 5 minutes would be just a little anti-climatic for the guy.
For that reason, I think he's justified controlling his fate in not being herded out like cattle.
I do think however, that he will step down as a Leaf at the end of the season. It's doubtful he'll retire, and he'll still have plenty of cache left that will in turn help his team.
How do you figure he will step down as a Leaf at the end of the season but it is doubtful he will retire? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 05:05:58
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How is giving your all to the team, including undying loyalty on a sinking ship, selfish? Hunh?!? Why should he bail out Leafs management?!? And how is a player, who takes less money than he could get elsewhere and specifically has a no-trade clause written in his contract, selfish?
Sundin is a franchise hockey player and team captain. He has fullfilled his obligations to the letter, in my mind, exceeded them for the most part.
The Leafs management has resoundingly FAILED. Mats Sundin does not work for management.
Personal note: I have even more respect for Sundin now. He is more old skule hockey player than I thought, and I love it that he showed loyalty in the face of disrespect. He also didn't let the weasels in Leafs management work their way out of a bad season by bailing them out the easy way. KUDOS, my man.
Sundin has earned EVERY RIGHT to choose how he wants his career to end - and if the Leafs had been a classy organisation in the first place, this situation would never have happened.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 05:11:38
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Just to get it out, I agree with what Sundin is doing, even though if I were a Leafs fan this would be pretty frustrating to see the last glimmer of hope extinguished.
Now, I would like to ask: who agress that you ''can't get no satisfaction'' winning as a rental player? I for one agree ten times over.
Habs get number 25 this year |
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Guest9840
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Posted - 02/25/2008 : 05:33:18
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Thank you Slozo,
I can't believe the disrespect leaf fans give to Sundin. It's so transparent when people make the argument of "if he wants to help the team he loves so much he'd leave...", I mean do you care at all the this is a real person who loves his job, loves the city he's made a home in and isn't willing to cut out of a bad situation for short term gratification that could feel hollow down the road. The only reason why Sundin should leave is that the fans/media have turned on him when he's given them the best years of his life.
Sundin is not the GM, it's not his job to collect draft picks and prospects for the team. He's earned every right to choose his path and has done nothing to warrant the accusations of selfishness and disservice to his team. I've gained new respect for him through this period of pressure, and lost mountains of respect for the "leafs nation". |
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semin-rules
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1915 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 05:47:05
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I really think he screwed over the Maple Leafs
they were all ready to get some young new faces to help them,
but Sundin is to precious and decides to stay
he is a free agent next year anyway !
that is very very poor
~~~GO STARS~~~ |
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Guest6901
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Posted - 02/25/2008 : 05:48:55
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You can't really blame him. How can he or any leaf fan trust management to make any kind of a deal that would help the team. C'mon now, Mats can't shoulder the responsibility of the quality of players he's surrounded with, one could argue many play at or above their potential because of the captain. The problem is and has been for 35 years or so (anyone remember Harold?) the management and the poor choices they have made. Change that and then consider beneficial changes to the team. Top down people.
Poor guy, he's definitely in a no win situation, both literally and figuratively speaking.
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 06:21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by semin-rules
I really think he screwed over the Maple Leafs
they were all ready to get some young new faces to help them,
but Sundin is to precious and decides to stay
he is a free agent next year anyway !
that is very very poor
~~~GO STARS~~~
Think about what you are saying and read some of the other posts. Why should he be made to move and play where his heart is not when it is the management's fault? He is basically paying the price for being good.
Habs get number 25 this year |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
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ERTW0T9
Top Prospect
Canada
73 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:03:14
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Undoubtedly three positives can be brought out of this decision for Leafs' Nation, regardless that we're stuck with all our NTC/NMC underachievers.
1. Not all prospects work out. Throw a Bobby Ryan, Steve Stamkos into a market like Toronto and dub them the saviour of a floundering team and they will have unbelieveable amounts of stress on their shoulders. They'll either rise to the occasion, want out or break. Realistically, the latter two are more probable.
2. For once, a professional athelete has demonstrated honour and loyalty. For all the Barry Bonds and Alex Rodriguez's of pro sports its nice to finally see a player want to play where he is 100% and stand by his word that he's claimed all season.
3. If Sundin left, who would lead this team and its youth? Even if prospects and first round draft picks comprised the Leafs next season, there wouldn't be a better leader than Mats to guide them and mentor them.
Despite the possibility of Mats returning next season after being a rental player for another team, he may not want to after all he went through. Also, the Leafs may not have gotten a significant enough return to rebuild the franchise without Sundin signing a contract extension with the other team. Bottom line is, no matter what came of this, there still would not be enough pieces to build this team into a playoff contender for at least another 3 to 5 years.
Everyone should just live with it and respect the fact that the Leafs have a heart and soul guy as their captain still. |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 10:19:21
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I really respect SUndin for staying with the team, especially after a season like this. It does make me wonder, tho, if he will sign with someone else in the offseason. like a previous person said, "I cannot leave my teammates and join another NHL Club at this time." sounds pretty suspicious. EIther way you look at it, the Leafs just got really bad for even longer as their only tradeable asset just refused to be traded. Leaf fans, it's gonna be a while til your team will raise the cup again!
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 13:01:41
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Read this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=burnside_scott&id=3263932
Isn't it a little over the top? Strip him of his captaincy? Blame him for not doing what is in the interest of the team? Label him a ''multimillionaire who never has taken his team to the Stanley Cup finals.''
Where will the insanity end? Think about what we are actually saying guys, it's Mats Sundin over here
Habs get number 25 this year |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 14:32:22
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You know what, most people won't agree with me, but I just started to respect sundin even more. Kudos for him, not waiving his NTC. Yesterday he reported, "It's not my fault to fix something that JFJ started". He is absoloutely right, it's not him that screwed his team up, it was JFJ and the rest of the crew. If the leafs had a decent GM right now, they would be in the playoffs and we would'nt even be having this discussion.
I think, when a player receives a NTC, it's his choice whether he wants to waive it or not. The techical rules are on my side, that much I know. If anybody blames the future leafs on Sundin, I don't don't think they have any idea on what they are talking about.
Ellis or Mason?
Go Preds Go! |
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MarkhamMax
Rookie
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2008 : 15:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6557
How do you figure he will step down as a Leaf at the end of the season but it is doubtful he will retire?
I thought it was pretty easy to understand. I suggested he will step down 'as a Leaf' after the season ends - as opposed to stepping down 'for good' as a player and retiring.
It is my opinion he will not retire, but will seek options elsewhere come July 1st. Despite him possibly regretting not retiring as a Leaf, I don't think he will be satisfied hanging up the skates the way he is playing. At the same time, can he feel good about joining the Leafs for another year, or two?
Personally, I'd like to see him return as a Leaf next year, but I'd understand his departure entirely. |
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Sundin Does Not Waive! 
