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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2008 : 06:48:56
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This is the thread where the debating will happen and the votes will be casted.
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 03/24/2008 16:31:16
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2008 : 11:00:56
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Tuesday March, 25
Andyhack vs. 99pickles
Tommorow The Great Debate will begin.
PLEASE only Andyhack and 99pickles post in this thread untill their debate has ended. If you have any comments, please post in the other thread.
Andyhack and 99pickles, Recent debate over this topic has many people in the NHL wanting a rule change. Your topic up for debate is....TOUCH ICING
Are you for touch icing, against it, or are you back and forth on the subject? Would you like to see a no-touch icing rule be introduced? If you are back and forth, state clearly why and try to support your facts. Make a strong argument for whatever side you are on. Remember the recent injury, and how it has the NHL in an uproar.
Since 99pickles was drawn first, he will get the opening statement. Each person will get 3 statements. Back and forth against eachother. 99Pickles may start whenever he is ready.
Other members, please wait untill the debate is over untill you cast your vote. This thread is STRICTLY for DEBATING and VOTES.
Good Luck!
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 03/25/2008 04:29:11 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 11:41:10
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I just want you to know that I will be posting my initial statement this evening during tonight's games.
(just so that you know I have been keeping my eye on this topic...I am committed to helping it to be very successful) |
Edited by - 99pickles on 03/25/2008 11:45:16 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 08:25:29
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Moved it over here...
I humbly submit to my esteemed fellow poster, Paintrain, and all other respected participants of these here hockey forums, the following....
No Touch Icing and the NHL's 'Fast' Response
A recurring issue has once again been brought to the forefront in light of another on-ice injury: Kurtis Foster suffers a broken femur on, of all things, an icing chase-down. A mostly benign and fringe event amongst all the goings-on of a hockey game has once again resulted in a season-ending injury. And it's not even the first time this season! Others include Alexei Ponikarovsky, Maxime Talbot and Mark Eaton (not the first time for him either).
So why doesn't the league just institute no-touch icing and be done with it? Al MacInnis suffered a dislocated hip back in the nineties, Mark Tinordi suffered a badly broken leg in the late eighties that ultimately ended his career after several attempts at a restart. This has been going on a LONG time; love him or hate him, Don Cherry has been championing this issue on Coach's Corner since the eighties!! So why the delay?
I'll tell you why...simply because the GM's vote against it every time the issue comes up at the annual summer meetings. Their sole reasoning being that it is an exciting moment in hockey. Strangely, however, in a recent poll of players , they voted in favour of the no-touch style. After all, THEY are the ones in danger of suffering career-ending injuries. And this coming from the group that still wants visors (and in some cases, helmets) to be optional !! If the players want certain protective elements to be optional, it's pretty stunning that they prefer protection on this issue.
And as for it being an exciting play in hockey... the vast majority of these chase-downs result in the predictable: whistle blown. So why not just save those few seconds wasted on the usual result of a done play, and use them on post-faceoff play BACK IN THE OFFENSIVE ZONE. Isn't offensive pressure more exciting than than a race to a whistle?To use no-touch icing actually puts game-play time back on the clock for real game-play.
I consider international hockey to be VERY exciting - more-so than most NHL hockey - therefore no-touch icing isn't reducing any excitement level as far as I can see. That is a mistaken argument.
It's actually not stunning that the GM's have dragged their collective feet on this concern for so long. Up until the massive rule changes following this most recent lock-out, the league has always been slow to implement change: re-instituting regular season O/T after about 40 years when it was just a war-time restriction... switching to 6-man hockey years after the Pacific Coast league only because it meant paying for less players... only allowing forward passing in all three zones nearly 30 years after the league formed... just look at that track record.
Well what are they waiting for this time? Ludek Cajka already died in a European game due to an icing chase-down. So the NHL doesn't even have to wait for something to happen to one of their own. They already have their guinea pig.
This one's such a no-brainer, that I am stunned it wasn't put in a long time ago.
(apparently I was pretty tired last night!!) |
Edited by - 99pickles on 03/26/2008 08:27:07 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 14:39:43
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Sorry for the delay. I had some internet problems. Here is my opening.
A battle on the defending blue line for the puck. The Home team gets possession, the defenseman wants a change but he dumps it in ahead of the red line. There is only 30 seconds left in the game and it is tied 5-5. The Right Wing knows that he has to beat the icing or there is a face off in his own end, and the players will have to stay on and they’re all tired, a goal could happen very easily. He sees that it’s in the corner; he puts his head down and starts skating as hard as he can. He catches up to the defenceman and they are neck and neck. He does a few quick crossovers to get ahead of the defenceman and puts his shoulder down into the player. He gets the puck; he puts it behind the net. His centerman is there and he takes it, the player who negated the icing goes right to the net and he gets the feed from behind the net and roofs it on the goalie. The Bench erupts in screaming. Every spectator in the Arena stands to that excellent hard working player. The Right Wing goes crazy; he goes right to his team mates and gives them a big hug. The game ends 6-5 for the home team.
If you say you would have seen a play like that and not be excited, someone deserves to punch you right in the face. That’s an exciting play that can happen with keeping the rule that the player can negate the icing if he gets to the puck first. But with an exciting play there comes consequences. As you all know, injuries happen a lot with these kind of plays. But on every play the player who got injured was not being smart about it. The players have voted to make the rule a no- touch icing but if they were smart on body positioning I don’t think they would have a problem with the rule. The reason they get injured is because they would turn there back to the player and even a little bump could knock them flying into the boards. If you watch Brian Campbell of the San Jose Sharks. He is very smart when it comes to that stuff. When he is racing for the puck, he uses his shoulder to separate him from the opposing player. He never turns his body to face the boards and he puts that shoulder down to protect himself. Very simple play that every player can do. Another big reason that injuries occur is the boards. There is that ledge under the glass. Patrice Bergeron of the Boston Bruins was injured very badly because of that ledge. So how can we fix it? Simple, we put that cushion on the ledge. So if the players get knocked into the ledge they won’t get a concussion or a broken nose because that cushion will be there.
I think the biggest reason for these injuries is because of players who aren’t being smart of body position. To help this problem, I believe in the off season a special coach should go to each of the teams and do a practice with them so they can have smart body position so they won’t get injured. Having smart body position obviously works because Brian Campbell hasn’t been injured from it. If you never turn your body to the boards and you use your shoulder as protection, you should never get injured with all the equipment you have on.
I hope this may have changed your minds on the no-touch icing.
PainTrain
(BTW, I chose to go against what everyone thinks just for the hell of it, maybe it will put some extra marks for me!)
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2008 : 20:47:16
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Is the NHL ready for such a big rule change? No, of course not...but this is not one of the big rule changes like allowing the 2-line pass, allowing glove passes in the defensive zone, and re-allowing for 4-on-4 hockey during coincidental minors. This is down there with moving the nets out an extra 2 feet; moving the nets back in another 1 foot; and putting in a trapezoid to get goalies to not wander too much resulting in the near complete elimination of fluke goals (another entirely different discussion).
Yes, I regard this as so small of a rule change as to be inconsequential...as far as a rule change goes. But it is of the utmost importance as far as player safety is concerned. Never has there been such a small change that could result in such a great amount player safety as this one.
The only negative consequence is removing the possibilty of the offending team's forward actually winning the icing race, actually getting the puck to a scoring position either for himself or a teammate..actually having a goal subsequently scored....and actually having said goal make a difference in the outcome of the game !! Going strictly from memory and from watching a couple hundred games worth of goal highlights on NHL.com, it doesn't appear that this has even happened since the lockout ! Over a half dozen injuries this season alone...and not a single icing chase showdown resulting in a goal since the lockout??
Even if you want that possible scenario to still exist, no matter how improbable, it CAN still exist. How?
I'll tell you how: just have them race to a different point before the icing line. Obviously the icing line is too far, and the blue line isn't far enough. So either the beginning edge of the zone's faceoff circles or the faceoff dots in those circles should suffice. Of course this would result in an increase in the "hey - I won that footrace!!" arguments, but we already have those arguments anyways.
Personally, I would rather do away with the whole thing and be done with it. Player safety comes first. We've already seen this test-marketed in international play, and it works just fine. If anything it leaves more time on the clock that can be used for real game play. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2008 : 20:47:14
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I tried to find some video of the examples you have used of players who got injured but I can't seem to find it. Which makes this already hard debate for me even HARDER! And I can't find any stats that will help my case at all! I gotta go right to opinion. If I win, you guys must really like me! Haha!
Let's begin!
99pickles I think you should try to make your own ideas. Not taking a idea from Bob McKenzie that is actually used in the USHL. That whole rule of the imaginary line and the linesman uses his discretion to whether blow it or let the battle for the puck go. That was Bob McKenzie's idea.
Either way, if the players weren't so stupid going to the boards we wouldn't even be having this discussion. With the equipment they have on and if they are smart about their body position they should not get injured!
You talked about players safety. Which is obviously important. The players are protected from head to toe. But the players can't think that they can get hit and get thrown into the boards and come out fine. They have to be smart with body position. I could say it a million times. Body position,body position and body position!!!! It frustrates the hell out of me seeing a player turning there whole entire body to the boards and the opposing player bumps into them and they go flying into the boards. Do what Wayne Gretzky did, go to the corners and the boards at an angle! Protect yourself with your shoulder, the shoulder pads are big enough so you don't need to worry about that. There is two reasons players get injured. #1. The person who injured the player, was angry and was trying to do too much and hit the opposing player in a dirty fashion. #2. The player who got injured was being dumb, either having his head down or going into the boards with your back facing the play. Most injuries that happen are number 2. So what if the players started to be smart about everything? Injuries would go down so much and the only real injuries can be accidental, like Saku Koivu's. Or because a player is really angry. Like Chris Pronger when he hit Dean McCamond. The NHL should make it mandatory that before each season that the 30 teams have to do a body position clinic to reduce injuries. Smart body position equals no injuries which equals the touch icing still active which equals entertainment for the fans!! All of that is really possible, don't you think 99pickles? |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 02:35:43
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To quote Paintrain:
"99pickles I think you should try to make your own ideas. Not taking a idea from Bob McKenzie that is actually used in the USHL. That whole rule of the imaginary line and the linesman uses his discretion to whether blow it or let the battle for the puck go. That was Bob McKenzie's idea."
I have not borrowed or stolen any ideas from anyone. If my idea is in any way similar to his ( or his idea being in any way similar to mine, from my point of view) then that is only proof that hockey enthusiasts can have similar ideas. Although I am thrilled that ideas I have had regarding this (dating back to the late 80's, mind you) are being implemented today - to only a certain degree though - I must say that they are, unfortunately, not the same. The top half of the face-off circles are, in fact, not imaginary lines, and neither is the face-off dot in that circle. Subsequently, there is no referee discretion as to whether they will blow down the play or not...in my suggestion, that is. The only referee discretion involved in my personal suggestion is over who made it to the agreed-upon 'finish line' first.My proposed distinct finish lines include faceoff dots, and edges of faceoff circles Sadly, this would result in at least a slight increase in the number of arguments over who won the foot-race. Although I used to think that this was the perfect and inarguable solution to this issue, over time I have come to learn that there truly is only one clear solution to avoid the unnecessary player injuries: just do what they have been doing in international play for a long time...blow the whistle once the puck crosses the icing line.
However, if the "thrill" of the icing foot-race is too much for the league to do without, then racing to a different pre-determined non-imaginary line (that proves to be more safe then the end of the rink) is the next best solution.
Both of my suggestions are definite improvements over the current system.
Now, to rebut your suggestion....
I find it highly unlikely that any solution involving the re-education of NHL players in regards to body positioning is a reasonable solution to any of the NHL's issues, let alone this one. They can't even get a reduction in head shots, checking from behind, hell, even stomping is on the rise! I am highly skeptical that a pre-season clinic is going to have any kind of impact whatsoever. Remember...the massive rule changes and enforcements since the lockout haven't even made the intended lingering effect on player safety, or scoring for that matter. And you believe a clinic will do the job in this case? Simply not realistic. You have a better chance at removing fighting 100%.
Respectfully yours, Pickles (neither an idea borrower, nor stealer be)
Cheers! |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 15:32:47
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I guess you weren't stealing his idea but it is awfully close to the idea Bob McKenzie has.
You saying that them doing a body position clinic won't help them is not true. Out of all the injuries most of them are because they are not being smart about their body position. And if you teach them of what to do they should not get injured. How many times have you seen Brian Campbell get injured because of a race?And he has races like that a couple times a game and he has never gotten injured. How many time have you seen Wayne Gretzky get injured because of a race down? Once, yes once, and that was because the other player was being stupid and hit him very dirty! So out of those two players and in a combined total of 2138 games and only one injury happened out of all the plays and the injury happened because the opposing player was being really dirty! I think that means that body position works! And if you think about it. If the players are more confident about going into those races without getting hurt that those races would increase and that means it would be exciting and the play I used in my first post could easily happen.
You also say that its' not realistic that they would make the body position clinics before the season. And you think that your idea of having the linesman decide if they can race for it or he can blow it dead is more realistic. It would be easier for your case that they just remove the touch icing and put in no-touch icing, but the reason for the mistake is the players fault, so why don't they just teach the players so they won't have these injuries? And in doing so it can keep the excitement that it can bring.
I don't think there is much more to say for my closing remark. There wasn't even that much to say in the first place. I tried really hard to go against it and maybe it actually convinced some of you to change your mind on it, I know it actually changed mine. Been a pleasure debating with you Pickles and best of luck of who advances! |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 16:04:35
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| Yes, that was pretty fun. It was fun debating you. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 16:44:44
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Leafsfan_101's Nomination
It was nice to read the argument here, and many great points were shared. I have to give the edge here to Pickles, but in Paintrain's defence he had a very difficult side to argue. I just think that Pickles had better ideas, and defended his side better.
Also, I thought that the stats Paintrain gave us about Campbell and Gretzky were near useless. From the time Gretzky played to now, many players have played. To base it on just 2 players doesn't cut it.
So my vote goes to Pickles99.
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Edited by - leafsfan_101 on 04/02/2008 16:45:15 |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 17:26:58
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Yes voting may begin.
My vote goes to Paintrain. I particularly liked his opening and I thought that he maintained a strong argument.
99pickles: 5
Paintrain:3
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 04/03/2008 19:11:19 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 17:36:08
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99pickles borrowed a lot of information, but hey, his arguments were better. I mean, PainTrain undoubtedly had a harder side and made a case for himself arguing a side that no one is on. It was interesting to see him fashion his case from basically his own concepts, and I give him credit for that. However, the work on 99pickles part, be it his or someone else's, is more thorough and thought provoking.
I vote for 99pickles.
Take two minutes to join the PickUpHockey Cyber Cup!
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3820#51395
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 19:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
Leafsfan_101's Nomination
It was nice to read the argument here, and many great points were shared. I have to give the edge here to Pickles, but in Paintrain's defence he had a very difficult side to argue. I just think that Pickles had better ideas, and defended his side better.
Also, I thought that the stats Paintrain gave us about Campbell and Gretzky were near useless. From the time Gretzky played to now, many players have played. To base it on just 2 players doesn't cut it.
So my vote goes to Pickles99.
But what else was I suppose to do? I knew I wasn't going to win so I just tried to get it over with so you guys can move on. The only way I can win is if I pull a horseshoe out of you know where!! |
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shinnyafterschool
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
375 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2008 : 19:53:29
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99Pickles
"Desire is the most important factor in the success of any athlete. " |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 00:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
99pickles borrowed a lot of information, but hey, his arguments were better. I mean, PainTrain undoubtedly had a harder side and made a case for himself arguing a side that no one is on. It was interesting to see him fashion his case from basically his own concepts, and I give him credit for that. However, the work on 99pickles part, be it his or someone else's, is more thorough and thought provoking.
I vote for 99pickles.
Take two minutes to join the PickUpHockey Cyber Cup!
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3820#51395
I borrowed no information, whatsoever. Of course I did research player injuries due to touch icing. I was completely unaware that any league in the world used anything other than touch or no-touch icing.
I "youtubed" video clips of injuries, "googled" news articles from injuries over this past season, and over the past decade, and also found articles about player opinions online. I received information from XM radio as they played pre-recorded bits about this issue going back onto the GM agenda at this summer's meetings despite the unlikelihood of any forthcoming changes. And, finally, in an issue of The Hockey News in the past year there was an article that showed the results of a poll on this concern.
Nowhere in those sources did I ever see any mention of any league at any level (whether pro, junior, N American or European) that uses any thing other than "touch" or "no touch". The only original idea that could be an alternate option in between those 2 choices would have to be a footrace to a different point, far short of the icing line.
None of my ideas were borrowed from any source, thank you.
I felt that Paintrain did his best for a tough argument, and his clinic idea was an original idea that I hadn't heard before on this issue. I felt the same way about my "race to an earlier line" argument too, but apparently there is something similar out there in US developmental hockey 
Again, that was quite fun Paintrain !
I can't wait to see who and what is next! |
Edited by - 99pickles on 04/03/2008 00:41:40 |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 08:55:17
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Sorry PainTrain, but you had a REALLY tough side to argue. You did very well but i'm gonna hve to go with Pickles.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 10:46:24
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Here's my critique and vote. Please, Pain and Pickles, this is not towards you personally or about your hockey knowledge. This is about this specific debate.
I think Pain did a fine job of providing information and rationale behind his opinion. However, what I found lacking was the opinion was black and white. Just simply shut off the touch icing and do it this way. I think that to support a strong arguement regarding change, you have to provide multiple options. Above this, most if not all of what I read into Pain's side was that of facts facts and more facts. Could have been somewhat more opinion or feeling based.
Pickles, on the other hand, not only put in facts but also his opinions and I really liked the added touch of a possible situation that might occur. The "story" about the 5-5 tie game.
For these reasons, I vote Pickles. |
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 12:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
[br
Pickles, on the other hand, not only put in facts but also his opinions and I really liked the added touch of a possible situation that might occur. The "story" about the 5-5 tie game.
For these reasons, I vote Pickles.
Beans, my man, i think you are a tad confused. PainTrain was the one that put in that 5-5 tie game story, not pickles. Just wanted to point that out.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 13:31:37
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Paintrain, kudos. Many, many kudos for your valiant effort. You drew a bad card, and tackled an issue that even those who run the NHL have been unwilling to address, or justify to the satisfaction of the masses. Pickles, you did exactly what you had to do, and did it rather well. No-brainer, maybe, but you knocked it out of the park. Well done. My vote goes to 99pickles.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009. |
Edited by - OILINONTARIO on 04/03/2008 13:48:45 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 16:28:49
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| I wonder who is going to win!? This is a real nail bitter!! Congrats Pickles, good luck in the next round!!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 17:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
[br
Pickles, on the other hand, not only put in facts but also his opinions and I really liked the added touch of a possible situation that might occur. The "story" about the 5-5 tie game.
For these reasons, I vote Pickles.
Beans, my man, i think you are a tad confused. PainTrain was the one that put in that 5-5 tie game story, not pickles. Just wanted to point that out.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull.
Opps, my back. My vote is for Pain. Sorry.
Suggesting for going fowards, maybe start a new topic for each debate. This is going to get very big very fast. |
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Patchy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
529 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 18:45:01
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My vote goes to Pain, he did a great job of arguing a side that was terribly hard to back up. Even though there's no stats that can back up his point, I was really convinced that no-touch icing should NOT come into play.
~~Go Leafs Go~~ |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 19:16:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's my critique and vote. Please, Pain and Pickles, this is not towards you personally or about your hockey knowledge. This is about this specific debate.
I think Pain did a fine job of providing information and rationale behind his opinion. However, what I found lacking was the opinion was black and white. Just simply shut off the touch icing and do it this way. I think that to support a strong arguement regarding change, you have to provide multiple options. Above this, most if not all of what I read into Pain's side was that of facts facts and more facts. Could have been somewhat more opinion or feeling based.
Pickles, on the other hand, not only put in facts but also his opinions and I really liked the added touch of a possible situation that might occur. The "story" about the 5-5 tie game.
For these reasons, I vote Pickles.
So Beans did you just get our names mixed up in this above post? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2008 : 08:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's my critique and vote. Please, Pain and Pickles, this is not towards you personally or about your hockey knowledge. This is about this specific debate.
I think Pain did a fine job of providing information and rationale behind his opinion. However, what I found lacking was the opinion was black and white. Just simply shut off the touch icing and do it this way. I think that to support a strong arguement regarding change, you have to provide multiple options. Above this, most if not all of what I read into Pain's side was that of facts facts and more facts. Could have been somewhat more opinion or feeling based.
Pickles, on the other hand, not only put in facts but also his opinions and I really liked the added touch of a possible situation that might occur. The "story" about the 5-5 tie game.
For these reasons, I vote Pickles.
So Beans did you just get our names mixed up in this above post?
Yes, that is exactly what happened. My sincerest apologies. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/04/2008 : 12:12:22
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The voting stands:
99pickles: 5
Paintrain: 3
We are waiting for Willus3 and Hkilirah to place their votes.
I will give them untill 5:00 pm eastern time tonight to cast their votes. It would be a shame if they did not get in but we have to get this thing rolling.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 04/05/2008 08:52:06 |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 14:08:28
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Hey guys, I vote for Pickles.
Sorry but I'm going to have to back out of this debate competition, as I just don't have the time to research/post the arguments at the moment.
Sorry if I've hindered the game.
Go Wings Go! |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 15:36:57
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99pickles has won his first round match against Paintrain. It was pretty close and interesting to read. Seen as Hkilirah has dropped out, Alex and Leafsfan_101 will be the next pair to debate. Alex, please refer to the comments thread, there is a question awaiting you there in terms of the next subject.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 19:00:44
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Saturday April, 5
Leafsfan_101 vs. Alex
PLEASE only Leafsfan_101 and Alex post in this thread untill their debate has ended. If you have any comments, please post in the other thread.
Leafsfan_101 and Alex. This will most likely be a long argument for years to come. And, still there really is no clear cut winner. Your topic up for debate is..... Crosby vs. Ovechkin
This is truely a question that may never be answered in some peoples eyes. In this debate, state clearly why you chose the side you are on and make your facts worthwhile and clear. Leafsfan_101 will be on the side for Ovechkin, and Alex will be debating the side for Crosby which he has agreed to.
Since Leafsfan_101 was drawn first, he will get the opening statement. Each person will get 3 statements. Back and forth against eachother. Leafsfan_101 may start whenever he is ready.
Other members, please wait untill the debate is over untill you cast your vote. This thread is STRICTLY for DEBATING and VOTES.
Good Luck!
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"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 04/05/2008 19:04:34 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2008 : 07:25:04
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Hey. I'm gunna create a new thread for me and Alex's debate. It's just gonna be slightly more organized. I hope that's all right LRP.
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2008 : 07:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
Hey. I'm gunna create a new thread for me and Alex's debate. It's just gonna be slightly more organized. I hope that's all right LRP.
Hey LF101. I'll transfer the debate over and I'll make the new thread.
____________________
"We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time."
- Vince Lombardi
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Edited by - Leafs Rock Planet on 04/06/2008 07:56:10 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 00:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Here's my critique and vote. Please, Pain and Pickles, this is not towards you personally or about your hockey knowledge. This is about this specific debate.
I think Pain did a fine job of providing information and rationale behind his opinion. However, what I found lacking was the opinion was black and white. Just simply shut off the touch icing and do it this way. I think that to support a strong arguement regarding change, you have to provide multiple options. Above this, most if not all of what I read into Pain's side was that of facts facts and more facts. Could have been somewhat more opinion or feeling based.
Pickles, on the other hand, not only put in facts but also his opinions and I really liked the added touch of a possible situation that might occur. The "story" about the 5-5 tie game.
For these reasons, I vote Pickles.
Beans, I just wanted to point out that I offered 3 possible solutions (race to the dots, race to the top edge of faceoff circles, or no-touch altogether) and discarded 2 others (icing line too far, blue line not far enough). I just specified that I prefer "no-touch" out of the bunch due to the possibility of increased arguments as to who may have won footraces.
But the primary reason that I wanted to post a message right now was to say that I am really impressed with the work done so far by LF101 and Alex. |
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OvertimeMark11
Top Prospect
16 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2008 : 09:38:12
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| what was the vote? |
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Topic |
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The Great Debate- Debating and Votes 
