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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
 Posted - 04/22/2008 : 12:52:03
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Tuesday, April 22
Beans15 vs. SuperSakic
PLEASE only Beans15 and SuperSakic post in this thread untill their debate has ended. If you have any comments, please post in the other thread.
Beans and SuperSakic. This this is a hot button issue and will pickuop steam in te years ahead. You guys are starting at it early, and will share your views on the matter. Your topic up for debate is.....NHL Pros at the Olympics.
In this debate, state clearly why you chose the side you are on and make your facts worthwhile and clear. Organization is key to this, as we learned from myself and Alex's debate.
Since Beans allowed SuperSakic to go and Sakic seems to be okay with that, he will get the opening statement. Each person will get 3 statements. Back and forth against eachother. SuperSakic may start whenever he is ready.
Other members, please wait untill the debate is over untill you cast your vote. This thread is STRICTLY for DEBATING and VOTES.
Good Luck!
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Edited by - leafsfan_101 on 04/22/2008 12:58:26
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 13:14:18
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It seems as though Gary Bettman is trying (for the life of him) to get the NHL to a level of ubiquity that the NFL or MLB has in the US. There have been several gimmics to get more people comfortable with the play of the game. Anyone remember that ridiculous glowing puck that had a blue/red light-stream when someone shot the puck? *Shakes head*
Anyway, what makes people become fans of this great game of ours is the skills, the determination, and the sheer competition involved. We have watched our favourite players play the game and are left agog when they astound us with their puck-handling, or play-making abilities, or their game-stealing saves. We wear their t-shirts, or (those who can afford them) their jerseys. As kids, we tried to emulate our favourite players by playing hockey (either on the ice or on the street) against our siblings or friends and calling every goal in the name of [insert your favourite player name here]. *Those were the days* Oops, sorry, I got lost in the moment.  As I was saying, this is how most of us came to be fans of the game. We enjoyed watching our favourite players and other players whom we came to respect, even though they didn't play on our home team, and we imagined what it would be like to have that player, and that player, and that player, all together on one team. We could only dream of such a team. The All-Star games were fun and all, but they seemed to lack something. Maybe it was the desire to actually want to win? Then along came the '98 Olympics in Nagano, and the NHL allowed it's players to participate. We were all giddy with anticipation.
We were going to see our countries represented by the best players we had to offer! (On a personal note, I never watched the olympics before then). We had the Great One playing along with the Next One (Lindros at the time). Not only were we able to see the stars of our game, but this was an opportunity to showcase our best players and thier talents to other countries; to give other countries a taste of what players in the NHL are capable of. There is no better stage than the World to really sell this great game of ours. It would be a great disservice to the sport of hockey (and the NHL) to not to send it's best (and to some extent, it's most famous) players.
The floor is yours Beans. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2008 : 20:43:13
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Sport. I love sport. What do I love about it?? The competition. The people who, for that period, live only for the sport. Their life has one purpose: to win. When does the purest form of this occurs?? The Olympic Games.
For most Olympic Athletes it an once in a life time opportunity. There is no 2nd chance. Most Olympic Athletes have worked for the better part of their life to compete at the highest stage possible. The that one chance to etch their name for all time. The best in the world. For hockey players before the introduction of NHLer's, it was the only chance they got. That created a hunger that Pro players can not have. The Pro hockey players loses that hunger simply by knowing that there is another chance. Consciously or subconsciously, this is not the only chance. Their could be another.
The Canadian team in Turino proved this. The effort and heart exhibited by that team was a pale comparison to that which we have the pleasure of enjoying each Christmas with the World Junior Championships. Now consider if the passion that we see in these players each Christmas happened only once every 4 years. It would be like the WJC on steroids! That creates the purest form of sport. Competition with a singular goal to win for the sake of winning. Nothing else matters but the win. Not the money, not the 2nd chance. It's only about the win.
Leave the NHL players at home and this is what you will get. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 04/24/2008 18:33:36 |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 04/25/2008 : 08:50:08
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You're right Beans. The olympics holds the stage for the purest form of competition. I agree also, that for most olympic athletes, it is a once in a lifetime opportunity. However, given that we are talking about Men's Hockey, I
don't think that having a bunch of amateurs representing their respective countries are necessarily "The best in the world." They may be the best of the amateurs, but not the world.
As for amateur palyers having more hunger than Pro players. I have to disagree. I definitely see more enthusiasm, but I think that that is a product of youth, not necessarily more "hunger".
How about the effect that, having known players on the ice in olympic hockey, has on the audience who is watching it? Sure, amatuer players may exude great enthusiasm, however i think that youthful enthusiasm isn't
sufficient on it's own to draw more people. You need to have a stronger sense of pride. The pros get paid millions. Yet they are willing to put their NHL seasons on the line to go and represent their countries. As a Canadian, when I see a hurt Lemieux continuing to play and lead a 2002 men's team to gold, it makes my chest swell with pride. Don't get me wrong, I am not denegrating the accomplishments of young players, but given the legend that comes with the name "Lemieux" I am more inclined to sit on the edge of my seat and watch. Since the advent of NHL players into the olympics, we have seen a growth in the number of countries participating in Men's hockey as well. What better way can you think of to sell the game than to do so using
some of the biggest names in hockey?
Before the 1998 Olympics, was the Czech Republic really known to be a powerhouse hockey country? No they were not. It was the play of Hasek and company that brought out the throngs in the streets to celebrate the
win. Can you honestly say that it would have had the same effect if amateur players were playing? No sirree bob. Just because the Canadians got cocky and sloppy in the Turin/Torino olympics in 2006 (I would argue that they didn't have the right players, but that is an argument for another thread) should not mean that ALL of the other countries played with less heart and determination. Sweden displayed tonnes of emotion at winning. Finland displayed tonnes of emotion at losing. As a Canadian I was sadly disappointed in my team. However, as a hockey fan, I found the match between Sweden and Finland such a treat to watch.
I want more and more! |
Edited by - SuperSakic on 04/29/2008 07:47:27 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 14:41:14
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My sincerest apologies for it taking so long for my 2nd reply. To say that I have been busy lately is an understatement.
Firstly, why is it alright for every other Winter Olympic sport be represented by amateur athlete except for hockey?? The Olympics are not for the best athletes in the world. It is for the best AMATEUR athletes for every sport except hockey and I think curling. Why?? That makes no sense. Secondly, you and I must have a different definition for "hunger." The definition I found was "desire or craving." I personally think the World Juniors show that every year they compete. Now if that only occurred once every 4 years and that the players on that team only have one chance, that creates desire and craving. The NHLer's have the potential for another chance. Take the Pro's out and there is never a second chance.
And as far as audience, outside of North America, most fans of Hockey in their country could not tell you the names of more than 10 NHL players. (No stats to back this up, just my guess.) That's the truly special piece of the Olympics is that the name on the back of the jersey does not matter, only the logo on the front. You could literally put a team of American hockey players on the ice in Canadian jerseys and the fans in Canada would still go nuts. The players do not and should not matter in the Olympics. The NHLer's take that piece away as well. It's not about selling the game. In most if not all cases of the modern era the Olympic Games lose financially. For the amount of infrastructure built for the games, the money is not recovered from that specific Olympics. It's about National Pride and competing on the World Stage.
And the Czechs were not a hockey superpower?? Hmm. The country was only given their sovereignty in 1991. Since then, they have won 5 medals at the World Juniors(3 Gold) and 2 Olympic Medals. I would say that is a superpower. Before they were their own country, they were part of Czechoslovakia who won 18 medals in 20 years at the World Championships(1970-1992) as well as a 2nd in the 76 Canada Cup, 3rd at the 81 Canada Cup, and Medaled 5 out of 7 times and the Olympics. If that is not a hockey superpower, I don't know what is???
With all due respect to my Canadian Cousins, I think that the reason that most Canadians want NHL players in the Olympics is because of our track record in the Olympics without the NHLers'. In three Olympics since the NHL players were involved we have one Gold. Between 1956 and 1998 we competed 10 times at the Olympics, 5 getting a medal, and none of them Gold. Candian Hockey fans expect to win every time. It's not that people want the NHLers there, they want to win. And the Canadian Team has not been able to do that without the NHLers. |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 10:22:52
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I disagree that the olympics are ALL about amateur athletes. Records are broken and people become known as "the stongest this", or "the fastest that". They may be amateurs, but they perform as pros. They are people who have dedicated their lives for their sport. NHLers are no different. They have
dedicated their lives to hockey. For some, the olympics is the biggest stage to perform on. Just because some view the NHL as the best hockey league in the world should not mean that the olympics should be looked upon as a kid's league, and by sending the NHLers, means that we are cheating somehow. If every other hockey country is able to send it's best players, then they have just as much chance of winning gold as every other country. If it's not about selling the game, then selling the game as a by-product of having NHLers present is big plus in my mind.
I am sure that the Swedes can name 10 of their players who play in the NHL. Same with the Fins. Same with the Czechs. I am definitely sure that the Russians can name 10 players who play in the NHL.
"The players do not and should not matter in the Olympics. The NHLer's take that piece away as well. It's not about selling the game. In most if not all cases of the modern era the Olympic Games lose financially. For the amount of infrastructure built for the games, the money is not recovered from that specific Olympics. It's about National Pride and competing on the World Stage." - Have to disagree with you here as well.
The players DO matter, in that, they draw in viewership and fill the seats. Yes, Canadians go nuts for hockey even if it's on a junior level. However, when the big boys are on the ice the audience level goes
up tremendously. According to overnight ratings, the men's final of 2002 drew an average of 10.25 million viewers on Sunday afternoon, which made it the most-watched TV program in Canadian history! Viewership peaked at nearly 12.6 million during the closing minutes and post-game celebrations. Even if it is just North America that is driving these numbers up, isn't this a plus for the olympics? And wouldn't the presence of NHLers be in fact HELPING in recovering money lost due to infrastructure? How do NHL
teams currently try to manage their costs for their arenas and organizations? They bring in a big name player that draws the crowd and fills the seats. That is also the bigger reason that Canadians want their NHLers in the olympics. So that they can have their idols win it for them, instead of some young no-names. Can you honestly tell me that their would be just as much buzz if a team of juniors won the gold and if a team of NHLers won the gold? I highly doubt it.
Sure we have the annual World Juniors. And Canada always gets up for seeing those young kids play to see who's the new up-and-comer. But it pales in comparison to seeing NHLers in the olympics. I have seen/heard on a number of media where everyone is saying, that since having NHLers in the olympics, it is some of the best hockey that they have ever seen. And I wholeheartedly agree. You can never compare the calibre of play and skill level that the NHLers display.
I really don't feel that having NHL players in olympics can be a bad thing. Other than taking ONE tournament away from some junior player, it just brings the Olympics to new heights. I will conclude my arguments with a quote from one of my favourite NHLers:
"The [NHL] players agree. The Olympics are the only true international contest for them. The world championships fall right in the middle of the NHL playoffs every year, so nobody cares. The Canada Cup is deceased and the World Cup is in mothballs, and neither of them interested the Europeans much. But a gold medal meant something to every player here, and that incentive makes for great hockey. "I just hope they keep using NHL players in the Olympics," Yzerman said." |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 09:40:26
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| *Crickets chirping* |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 10:09:55
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Sorry fella, I was away all week end and things have been crazy.
I will do my best to post tomorrow. |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2008 : 10:31:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Sorry fella, I was away all week end and things have been crazy.
I will do my best to post tomorrow.
No probs Beans. It was just me trying to be humorous  .
But do you get the feeling that the passion of the debate has somewhat declined? |
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SuperSakic
Rookie
Canada
192 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 10:32:54
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| Hey everyone hurry up and read this thread and tell me if I've won or not in the comments thread! |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 12:48:02
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| Still waiting for Beans. I don't know if he's on anymore, many people have left. I don't know if the debates can continue either because so many have departed. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 12:50:57
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I'm still here, just extremely busy. With all honesty, I would suggest shutting down the debates for now. The playoffs will be over in a matter of weeks and the traffic on the site will slow considerably.
I love the idea and think it would be great to do at the start of the season. Lots of new debates. New free agents, coaches, contracts.
Just a thought. |
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The Great Debate- Beans15 vs. SuperSakic 
