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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
 Posted - 07/04/2008 : 16:24:08
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Bah, humbug!!!
You guys all keep going on about "intent". What about Moore's intent on Naslund? Moore intented to elbow Naslund in the head...he even reached out to get him as Naslund stretched out vulnerably. How come Moore wasn't suspended? My point? Clearly the injury has bearing upon the judgement.
Bertuzzi didn't want to end the guy's career, he just wanted to kick his ass in a good ol' fashioned hockey fight. The punch from behind wasn't intended to KO him, it was to get him to turn around and stand up like a man for his actions. The outcome however was the result of an unfortunate accident (lucky shot compounded by half a dozen guys falling on top of him) I can buy that Bertuzzi deserved a suspension, but the one he received was too long in my opinion.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, I've seen way worse (Domi elbow on Niedermeyer for one) |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 00:59:56
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If Moore was properly suspended for what he did originally, he might not have been on the ice for the Bertuzzi incident.
Also....don't forget, to defend Big Bert on this incident is to defend McSorely on his incident.
Please discontinue your love affair with certain players and call a spade a spade! Call it how it is.... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 07:27:50
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I still hold true that what Moore did was spur of the moment and did not deserve a suspension. I have watched that clip countless times and Moore did not lead with anything other than a very solid open ice hit. Naslund moved and Moore reacted with his elbow. You will see this happen at least once in every single NHL game each season. The different was that Naslund was in a vulnerable position.
Moore should have gotten a penalty for the play, but no suspension. Absolutely not.
Andy, although rare I completely agree. A sucker punch is a sucker punch, regardless of the outcome. I would stongly agree with specific set minimum suspensions for certain infractions. Intent to injury, immediate suspension. Using a stick or any other piece of equipment to injury another player, immediate suspension, etc.
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2008 : 20:08:33
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July 5, 2008
The Anaheim Ducks organization may have divorced itself from Disney a year ago, but don’t tell Brian Burke that. This man seems keen on the idea that any attention is good attention.
Burke wants to make a Dreyfus out of friggin’ Dustin Penner. For a year, Kevin Lowe watched as Brian made an utter mockery of himself. You can only tickle the queen’s guards so long before they clobber you silly. Kevin Lowe has now associated himself with this nonsense, and the other 28 GMs are left to stand as the piggies in the middle.
Kevin Lowe was foolish for even responding to this crazed lunatic. Up until this point, the ball was in his court. Every second he kept silent, he proved to be above such petty child’s play. Now, he’s the lesser of two evils.
Kevin Lowe had an illustrious NHL career, winning six Stanley cups and playing a role in one of the greatest NHL dynasties. He has enjoyed continued success on the international stage, capturing gold in Salt Lake City and at the 2004 World Hockey Championships. What has Brian Burke have to his repertoire? An inherited Stanley Cup. This guy is the Paris Hilton of hockey if you ask me! His air of confidence is deadlier than a string of yellow cabs in rush hour.
The facts are this: Kevin Lowe acted within the precincts of the CBA by going after Dustin Penner. It’s conceivable that he started a trend of throwing money around recklessly, but if anything it roots from his offer to Vanek, not Penner. Even assuming the blame for this reoccurring phenomenon rests solely on Lowe’s shoulders; let us not forget the fad Brian started by letting Neidermayer and Selanne jock him around for half a year before ending their mid-life crises. Players like Sundin suddenly think it is their birthright to play forty game seasons. To the prototypical fan, it is far worse to see the game’s stars mull over retirement for half a season than it is to follow increasingly exciting July 1sts.
Brian Burke won a Stanley Cup in Anaheim. To his credit, the acquisitions of Neidmermayer, Pronger and Selanne were golden. That being said: he ran a Vancouver Canucks team into the ground; he failed to make it past the first round in the year following his Cup, even though he had essentially the same team (some would argue better); he has done nothing, and very little of that, to replenish his aging roster through the draft. On the other hand, in the words of Ron Wilson, Kevin’s record ‘speaks for itself’ and he is clearly building a franchise poised to make a run this year, among his many other accolades
Brian Burke would be wise to keep his dirty laundry for the Laundromat as opposed to the press box.
-The New Kid on the Block |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2008 : 08:19:02
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Oh wow, it's gotten so a guy can't go camping for a couple days without coming home to a raring PickUpHockey!
Let's cover a few things:
1) Mats Sundin is 37 and is getting started late in life. He has not yet married. As his family looks now, he doesn't need 20 million more for two people. If I was him, sure, 20 mil is 20 mil; but maybe he just wants to settle down and start a family. His soon to be wife probably wouldn't want to go through a pregnancy / raising kids with her husband on the road for half a year, and if Sundin wants kids (who wouldn't?) it may mean no more hockey. It's not as simple as money and hockey; this guy has a lot of things influencing his decision. Good for him for taking his time.
2) The Bertuzzi sucker punch was classless. It was intent to injure. Regardless of what Moore may have done to Naslund, whether there was malice or not (although Beans adequately proved that it may very well have been a natural reaction to an impending collision) Bertuzzi went way over the line by forgetting there was a game around him and focusing solely on hurting another hockey player.
3) Brian Burke deserves credit for winning as a GM, which is more than Lowe can say. Maybe Burke is bullying Lowe, maybe it's a little overplayed, but at the end of the day, he's right. There's rules and there's principles. Lowe cheated the Ducks out of Penner and strangled Buffalo financially by offering Vanek way more than he deserved. The effects are being felt when a guy like Huet makes more than Brodeur. Brian Burke is the better GM and the more knowledgeable of the two, and everything he predicted has in fact come true.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey''
EDIT: Federer vs. Nadal, history could be made today! I'm expecting comments from Andy and I'mAC on this...! Let's go Roger! |
Edited by - BradTheBadDad on 07/06/2008 08:22:35 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2008 : 16:24:58
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July 6th, 2008
ESPN released its 2008/09 Fantasy Rankings a couple weeks back, and it looks like it’s been through a food processor if you ask me. This year will be harder than last in terms of drafting near the top, especially if you’re paying for that rollover style.
Alex Ovechkin at number one? If Sid the Kid is to be our barometer, the reigning Hart, Art Ross, Richard and Pearson winner isn’t money in the bag. Teams will be on him like the white on a golf ball this season. Don’t forget the Southeast is much stronger on the back end than a year ago. Last year he 32 percent of his goals came via inter-division play. Here’s a guy that plays a physically demanding style. Peter Forsberg ring a bell? As much as people want to play this next point down, he is Russian; they have a tendency to dry up. Pavel Bure anyone? Let’s not forget, AO makes his bread and butter on goals. A scoring touch is easy to lose. For most of the Philly series, he was shut up tight. He may very well be the exception to the rule, but when you’re looking at such an ambiguous league, safe rather than sorry. I can think of two guys I’d take before him in this year’s NHL.
A far safer pick to me is Pavel Datsyuk (ranked 5th amongst forwards.) What does this guy have to do to get noticed, friggin’ cartwheel all over the ice? How about smoke signals, you think people will notice him then? This guy is the real deal! Detroit is the best team in the NHL after the draft and after the free agent frenzy. The acquisition of Marian Hossa will only serve to shorten the time he plays against a number one defensive unit. Either way, I’m not too worried about the defense in the Central Division as it is. Those who want to mention Brian Campbell should remember that he is a puck-moving defenseman and Detroit is the best fore-checking team in the NHL. Oh, and I’m not too worried about the All-Stars in net either. Ellis, Huet, Leclaire and Legace aren’t exactly brick walls.
At number two I’d take Sidney Crosby (ranked 2nd amongst forwards), and only because Pittsburgh isn’t as good a team as Detroit. Sid still has the best vision in the NHL, and I like the idea of him playing alongside Dupuis and possibly Fedetenko. He isn’t going to get the attention he did last year because Malkin was the one who turned heads, but he will be better than last year. Taking a ‘risk’ on the pride of Cole Harbor at number two is probably the biggest barrel of laughs since Tlusty’s promiscuous meltdown.
At number four, you can’t go wrong with Jarome Iginla. Mr. Clutch and Mr. Consistency all gift-wrapped for you and still under 32. Murray Edwards has more dollars pumped into his defense than the Right Hon. has invested in Afghanistan, Miikka Kiprusoff is still one of the best in the business, Cammalleri has showed up to help shoulder the load, and this team looks really good. This season will see them take advantage of the shell-shocked Avs, ‘Nucks and Wild.
And finally, to fill out the top five look no further than Vinny Lecavalier (22nd overall on ESPN’s rankings ??) I’ve always maintained he can be better than Ovechkin and Crosby on most nights, and Tampa’s facelift just adds more to that argument. This team is too good to miss the playoffs, and Vincent Lecavalier is a great addition to any fantasy roster. More fantasy news tomorrow.
McCain for President! |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 03:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Bah, humbug!!!
You guys all keep going on about "intent". What about Moore's intent on Naslund? Moore intented to elbow Naslund in the head...he even reached out to get him as Naslund stretched out vulnerably. How come Moore wasn't suspended? My point? Clearly the injury has bearing upon the judgement.
Bertuzzi didn't want to end the guy's career, he just wanted to kick his ass in a good ol' fashioned hockey fight. The punch from behind wasn't intended to KO him, it was to get him to turn around and stand up like a man for his actions. The outcome however was the result of an unfortunate accident (lucky shot compounded by half a dozen guys falling on top of him) I can buy that Bertuzzi deserved a suspension, but the one he received was too long in my opinion.
I've said it before and i'll say it again, I've seen way worse (Domi elbow on Niedermeyer for one)
Hey Leigh - I'm going to go through this one by one.
Leigh comment - "You guys all keep going on about intent".
Andy's reply - No. Not me. I actually don't care about his intent for the first minimum level of punishment. He sucker punched the guy from behind. That's all I need for a very lengthy suspension as a minimum. And 20 games is not very lengthy. It's about a couple of months for something that, regardless of whether it actually causes any damage, is a non-hockey related act that could cause serious damage. And the fact that hockey is an inherently dangerous game shouldn't be raised as a defense to this point. Just the opposite! The fact that it is an inherently dangerous game means the NHL should at least try to totally stamp out the ugly stuff that CLEARLY is not part of the game (these things have to be treated even more seriously than a vicious check, which even if dirty, at least occurs in the course of playing the game)
Leigh's comment - What about Moore's intent on Naslund?
Andy's reply - Irrelevant in terms of whether a terrible wrong was committed by Bertuzzi. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Leigh's comment - Clearly the injury has bearing upon the judgement.
Andy's reply - that's true. And it's totally wrong in my opinion. Even if Moore got up and walked away from this I'd be calling for a very severe suspension. This is really THE point I'm trying to make here, actually. Even if there was no injury, and in fact even if there was no intent to injure, the act still warrants a very lengthy suspension in my mind. Sure, handing out such a suspension in those circumstances (where a guy walks away uninjured) would take guts. Call me crazy, but I'd like to see guts like that.
Leigh's comment - Bertuzzi didn't want to end the guy's career, he just wanted to kick his ass in a good ol' fashioned hockey fight.
Andy's reply - I think that's true too. But for reasons already mentioned, I don't think it should matter at all at the first stage of handing out minimum suspensions. Anyway, if he clearly did want to end his career, don't you think this would be a really easy question? I mean, banish him for life in that case. Obviously.
Leigh's comment - I can buy that Bertuzzi deserved a suspension, but the one he received was too long in my opinion.
Andy's reply - 20 games is a couple of months basically. In the large scheme of things, when you think of the potential harm from a totally unnecessary act that had nothing at all to do with the course of the game, it's not really much at all. It's a couple of months of watching lots of Seinfeld reruns late into the night. Not too harsh.
Leigh's comment - I've said it before and I'll say it again, I've seen way worse (Domi elbow on Niedermeyer for one)
Andy's reply - Have to watch that one again but, sure, probably there are a whole list of worse things in terms of potential danger. But with a lot of them, Simon stomping excluded mind you, the problem is that you are always dealing with the whole "these things happen in hockey" thing. And to a certain extent, in some instances (Randy Jones hit for instance) that is very true. In this case though, there is no grey area. There is no "well, sucker punches are part of hockey" defence.
I have nothing against Todd Bertuzzi really. He made a very bad mistake, and I think he knows that. Hope he does anyway. Whether he does or not though, he wasn't given a long enough suspension for it
Edit - Federer-Nadal - wow, that was exhausting to watch. Nadal played great, but I thought Federer choked away a lot of key points and made some questionable strategy choices at times. Nice comeback try but a pretty devestating loss for him actually after all the effort the last 4 years to win the French, only to lose to Rafa. But, as I said before, Rafa has a lot of work to do to catch up to Roger, historically speaking (looking at the grand slams overall). He could do it though - as he is incredible, and still quite young. Will be interesting to see what happens with both of them in the next couple of years. |
Edited by - andyhack on 07/07/2008 03:48:56 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 12:33:18
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quote:
Originally posted by BradTheBadDad
3) Brian Burke deserves credit for winning as a GM, which is more than Lowe can say. Maybe Burke is bullying Lowe, maybe it's a little overplayed, but at the end of the day, he's right. There's rules and there's principles. Lowe cheated the Ducks out of Penner and strangled Buffalo financially by offering Vanek way more than he deserved. The effects are being felt when a guy like Huet makes more than Brodeur. Brian Burke is the better GM and the more knowledgeable of the two, and everything he predicted has in fact come true.
I have to comment on this.
I would agree with this completely if it weren't for a couple of things. THE OILERS WERE WILLING TO PAY!!!! I would agree if Lowe created the offer sheets to drive up the costs. He wasn't. He wanted the players.
Firstly on Tomas Vanek. The guy is a legitimate 40+ goal a guy now and will be (baring injury) for the next 10 years. What is that worth in the NHL??? There were only 10 guys in the league with 40 or more goals last season. Most of them as FA's would get $10 million. When Vanek was offered the big dollars by the Oilers, he just came off a 43 goal season and was plus 47 playing 2nd line minutes. That offer was valid.
Penner is a legitimate 20+ goal a year guy with potential for 30+. That is worth the $4.25 a year that he signed for. Again, another valid offer.
Most importantly, the two offer sheets would never have been offered if the GM's would have done their job. They had the entire season to sign those players without any other team having the right to talk to them. Because Burke and Regher chose to wait until the free agency time period to sign them, they were available for anyone to put an offer sheet to. To me it seemed like Burke and Regher were trying to play a little hard ball with their respective players and it jumped up and bit them in the backside!
Don't blame Kevin Lowe for Burke and Regher trying to play hard ball with their own RFA's. That is their fault, not Kevin Lowe's. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 07/07/2008 17:27:04 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 15:12:31
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July 7, 2008
Picking up were we left off…
Taking the sixth slot, Joe Thornton (ranked 9th) and his back-to-back 90 assist seasons. He’s a moose, but doesn’t go overboard with the hitting. He uses his size smartly, to win battles, but not to dock guys. For this reason he has managed to avoid injury fairly nicely, something that many other stars can’t say the same about. He happens to be a playmaker (D-OH!) and with Michalek, Stegouchi and Clowe showing flashes of brilliance last April, the new coach may go back to the drawing board and dump Cheechoo from his wing, something that should have been done ages ago.
The Ottawa Senators may be the NHL’s outcast, but they’re still playing 32 games against a rebuilding Toronto and Buffalo team, and a mediocre (sorry Andy) Boston club. Even against Montreal they seem to have inflated scores. As a result, you can’t afford to overlook the CASH line where everyone else does. ESPN suggests taking Dany Heatley (ranked 3rd) That’s rolling the dice if you ask me. First of all, he is to Jason Spezza what Hillary is to Bill. Second of all, he himself is in the gutter lately (overlooking that incredible output on Canada, where he played on a line much more suited for his style of play.) Therefore, Daniel Alfredsson (17th) seems like the smart money to me. There’s a saying in the workplace, you want something done give it to a busy person. This guy is a lone wolf. He had 89 points in just 70 games (as compared to Heatley’s 82 and 71) and if someone on the team is going to yank all the seams together it will be him.
When a team is that good, a team is that good. Henrik Zetterberg (ranked 16th) and his 92 points on the best team in the NHL is almost too good to be true. OK, so his back is sketchy… it’s not made of porcelain or anything! For the exact same reasons I picked Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg ladies and gentlemen!
At ninth, you’d be remiss to overlook Ryan Getzlaf (ranked 13th). Chances are your colleagues at the office or buddies at school don’t spend their days glued to a screen, be it computer or otherwise, following the NHL like most of us on this website. Ryan Getzlaf may not be the sexy pick, but he’s a solid one. Like Heatley, he benefited largely from the combination in Canada, something that realistically we can’t expect from him over an 82 game season. Nevertheless, Michael Eisner must have sprinkled some Pixie dust on Perry’s stick, ‘cause somehow they’re clicking. A 90-point season from Ryan is no stretch; the roof on this guy is within a point or two of a hundred. The Ducks are essentially the same group from ’07, and anything can happen…
Rounding out the top 10 forwards is difficult. Dany Heatley (ranked 3rd) is likely the guy you place the chips on, but Evgeni Malkin (12th) did after all manage to register 106 points last season. The reason I hold Heatley in higher regard is because he has had over 40 goals in his last four full NHL seasons, dating back to his Thrashers days. Slumps come and go, you know. And if int’l hockey is to be any indication, you’d be mental to suggest that this guy is still searching for answers. Malkin seems too pouty and apathetic, even at times lethargic, to blow a top-ten pick on. Sorry to say it, but this is the type of guy that gives Russians a bad name.
McCain for President! |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2008 : 18:16:21
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July 8th, 2008
Peter Forsberg get off the damn ice, this isn’t little league! Some NHL players need to learn to quit while they are ahead. There comes a point in every man’s life where self-dignity isn’t something you’re willing to sell to the highest bidder, who’s with me? That point for most athletes is five years before they realize it would have made more sense to quit while they were ahead.
A select few are worthy of taking another shot at glory (Mario jumps to mind immediately.) But it’s time the rest played when they should, and didn’t when they shouldn’t, that simple. Two perfect examples of this in the last two NHL seasons.
1) Scott Niedermayer. A career nothing short of magnificent. This guy was fortunate enough to have his career filled with everything he could possibly have asked for and then some. He was an integral part of the revolutionary New Jersey Devils and won three Stanley Cups with them. He got to play against his own brother in a Cup Final, then move to sunny Anaheim to reunite the family, and won it all again (this time with his brother) as the cherry on top! Now if this guy doesn’t have a horseshoe up his ass he’s got to let me know what astrology magazine he’s subscribed to! Imagine winning the cup with your brother as the pinnacle of a brilliant career. Talk about going out on a high! So why did he need to come back halfway through the next season in an anti-climatic bust?
2) Jaromir Jagr. Top nine in NHL points. Got to play alongside Mario Lemieux and win two cups with him. Was a stud everywhere he went, and captured five Art Ross trophies. This guy is a legend. Now this year, he failed to reach a couple of goals in his contract; a gentle message that maybe his time is over. Instead of putting an asterisk next to a highly successful career, he moves on to the Continental League. This way, he satisfies his craving to remain on the ice, but also leaves on top.
I’m not one of those Scrooges who you’ll find ‘Bah, humbugging.’ I do have a heart. But it just seems like such trashy way for players to leave the NHL. When they turn old and grey and reflect on their careers, do they want to remember the failed attempts at the end, or the success of a triumphant fifteen years? They’re kicking themselves while they’re down. Please tell me other see eye to eye with me on this one...
McCain for President! |
Edited by - Alex on 07/07/2008 18:43:51 |
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Leafs_Fan_67
Top Prospect
14 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 04:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
July 8th, 2008
There comes a point in every man’s life where self-dignity isn’t something you’re willing to sell to the highest bidder, who’s with me?
It’s time the rest played when they should, and didn’t when they shouldn’t, that simple.
Mats Sundin should read this. If he signs anywhere other than Toronto he completely undermines what he has been saying the last decade or so. I don't care if he wins the cup (I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it) but if he wants to be smart he either returns to Toronto or goes the Jagr way and plays inSweeden |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 05:49:17
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quote:
Peter Forsberg get off the damn ice, this isn’t little league! Some NHL players need to learn to quit while they are ahead. There comes a point in every man’s life where self-dignity isn’t something you’re willing to sell to the highest bidder, who’s with me? That point for most athletes is five years before they realize it would have made more sense to quit while they were ahead.
It´s been awhile but an injury free Foppa is the worlds best hockey player bar none. He doesn´t play for a looooong time, comes back, is healthy enough to play in 9 games for Colorado and averages 1,5 ppg wich is higher than Ovechkin had in the regular season.
Yes he has alot of injuries and I would like to see him win in Sweden next season. He probably have back problems with all the bling hanging around his neck but it´s nice to have 2 of everything so 2 seasons in (the) Elitserien playing for Modo would suit him imo.
quote:
Mats Sundin should read this. If he signs anywhere other than Toronto he completely undermines what he has been saying the last decade or so. I don't care if he wins the cup (I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it) but if he wants to be smart he either returns to Toronto or goes the Jagr way and plays inSweeden
If it was up to Sundin to decide it would probably be Toronto but it seems like some people aren´t as grateful as they should be in TO management so Sundin might have a chance at a cup after all.
He doesn´t have the injuries Foppa had to deal with so give Sundin some decent linemates and people might start to think he has been a bit underrated in the NHL as a hockey player.
Edit: Federer-Nadal. If they didn´t have it before they have a rivalry now that´s on par or even surpassing classic ones such as Borg / Macenroe and Sampras / Agassi.
A bit unlikely but if Federer could win in Paris next year it would be great for entertainment values. Nadal on the other hand is young and have the time to get better to compete with Federer over the remaining grand-slams.
Edit nr2: Andy, Federer and Nadal have tied the records for most consecutive wins in the Wimbledon and French Open respectively. An interesting fact though is that both these tied records belongs to the same man.....guess who? Another proof of Borgs all around greatness.
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Edited by - I´m also Cånädiön on 07/08/2008 13:28:18 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 07:40:03
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Some quick notes . . .
1. Alex - good job on this, and great writing. Keep it up!
2. Bertuzzi / Moore - when speaking of this incident, it always brings up a lot of emotional responses, with people defending both players. People who defend Bert almost always invoke some excuse including the previous Moore/Naslund hit . . . and that is wrong. If you want to look at that incident, look at that incident. But don't use it as an excuse for inexcusable behaviour - stick to the actual incident. Yes, mitigating factors do give one perspective - but it doesn't diminish the crime. Bert should have been suspended for at least two years of actual playing time, possibly for life. The Naslund hit by Moore, I have to agree with Beans - I see those all the time, nothing of note. Penalty on the play, no suspension - in this case, with no penalty, maybe hand out a one game suspension. Done.
3. Player rankings - I like the way you are ranking your players Alex, but you should also include rankings for pools that give 2 points (or 1.5 points) for a goal and only 1 for an assist. That's the way I run most of my pools, FYI, and it is always harder to figure out due to everyone being stuck in this one point for everything mode. Overall (IN GENERAL, not always), you will never convince me that an assist has the same value as a goal. My rankings, for goal-heavy pools:
1 Ovechkin
2 Heatley
3 Iginla
4 Kovalchuk
5 Lecavalier
6 Malkin
7 Crosby
8 Zetterberg
9 Alfredsson
10 St.Louis
4. Crap, longer than I thought! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 11:39:06
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Every single pool/league is different, even beyond the 2pts-per-goal scenario.
Even if point values were all the same, other factors such as # of goalie categories vs. # of skater categories, league free agent system, whether you have a max number of season-long transactions or not, whether your league employs an IR during the season, etc etc.. will all change your pre-season rankings.
The biggest pre-season ranking affecter? The actual statistical categories of choice in the fantasy league.
So, based on this, I think Alex doing one ranking is plenty enough. Well, unless he wants to do about 30 lists or so?? Then it would be a good idea! |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 14:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
...... Bertuzzi / Moore - .....People who defend Bert almost always invoke some excuse including the previous Moore/Naslund hit . . . and that is wrong.....
I think you have misinterpreted my reason for bringing it up (as has my good buddy Andyhack in a previous response to my comment) I was not justifying the Bertuzzi incident, I brought it up in the context of why was Moore not punished for his "crime"? What I mean is, the debate was about where the line is for suspensions and whether intent or result (or both) is the determining factor when instituting a suspension (and the length of that suspension) I brought up Moore's hit as a separate incident. Naslund suffered a severe concussion, and the hit was clearly a dangerous one, the intent looked pretty obvious to me...but yet, nothing. This is what I meant. I was not trying to imply that this made Bertuzzi's actions appropriate.
Now having said that, if the Moore hit was not a good enough reason good ol' fashioned (legal) hockey fight, then I don't know what is. 
In real life I would not physically lash out at someone because they wronged a friend (unless in pure defense I suppose), but this is professional hockey and they have their own rules. You may not agree with them by your own moral code but the rules do allow fighting. A side note...this is also why I do not agree that the state should be allowed to get involved regarding on ice incidents. But that is another story.
So Slozo and Andyhack, with all due respect, do not paint me with the "two wrongs don't make a right" brush. I know enough about the game, and life in general to have learned this lesson before puberty kicked in the 1980's. |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 17:32:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Most of them as FA's would get $10 million. When Vanek was offered the big dollars by the Oilers, he just came off a 43 goal season and was plus 47 playing 2nd line minutes. That offer was valid.
You can play devil's advocate all you like but we both know that it's more likely than not a push for Vanek to earn that type of money (look at his numbers this year). I can think of a couple highly more effective ways to spend under 10 million, without looking further than Vanek's very team:
1) Daniel Briere. This guy is making an average of 6.5 million a year! Through three rounds he had the most game winning goals this playoffs, if memory serves me correctly. Far better than Vanek's 2008 performance.
2) Chris Drury. Drury is averaging $7.05 milion a season and is a leader and a worker (not to mention a better point-getter than Vanek).
The offer sheet was a claculated move by Lowe, taking a GM who had lost both captains and putting him with his back against the wall. He knew very well that they couldn't afford to lose all three and strangled the Sabres.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
Edited by - BradTheBadDad on 07/08/2008 17:33:32 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 17:42:40
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh What I mean is, the debate was about where the line is for suspensions and whether intent or result (or both) is the determining factor when instituting a suspension (and the length of that suspension)
Perhaps they (the NHL) should come up with a clear standard of games for every single type of egregious foul based on two factors: the act itself (a very firm and established # of games), and the outcome of it (the worse the injury, the longer the suspension - however, I don't believe in the 'suspended for as long as the injured player is out' school of thought).
But, of course there should be extra consideration for repeat offenders.
Finally, maybe unbiased outside arbitration should be used in all suspension matters in light of recent offenses not being punished accordingly. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 17:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by BradTheBadDad
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Most of them as FA's would get $10 million. When Vanek was offered the big dollars by the Oilers, he just came off a 43 goal season and was plus 47 playing 2nd line minutes. That offer was valid.
You can play devil's advocate all you like but we both know that it's more likely than not a push for Vanek to earn that type of money (look at his numbers this year). I can think of a couple highly more effective ways to spend under 10 million, without looking further than Vanek's very team:
1) Daniel Briere. This guy is making an average of 6.5 million a year! Through three rounds he had the most game winning goals this playoffs, if memory serves me correctly. Far better than Vanek's 2008 performance.
2) Chris Drury. Drury is averaging $7.05 milion a season and is a leader and a worker (not to mention a better point-getter than Vanek).
The offer sheet was a claculated move by Lowe, taking a GM who had lost both captains and putting him with his back against the wall. He knew very well that they couldn't afford to lose all three and strangled the Sabres.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey''
Consider it dirty pool, but he didn't break any rules, right? At the very least, maybe he was taking a chance on the fact that with the mass exodus out of Buff, Vanek might be more inclined to take a chance somewhere else.
I'm just looking at it from both sides, I'm on neither side ( I do not want to get in yet another debate about this!)
Now the Penner signing, that was pretty smart - Anaheim would have had to make some roster adjustments in order to keep him at the offer tendered...and they had some other looming roster adjusting to address that summer! They had every right to be pissed, but the ongoing press was distasteful, unfortunately. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 21:24:27
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quote:
Originally posted by BradTheBadDad
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Most of them as FA's would get $10 million. When Vanek was offered the big dollars by the Oilers, he just came off a 43 goal season and was plus 47 playing 2nd line minutes. That offer was valid.
You can play devil's advocate all you like but we both know that it's more likely than not a push for Vanek to earn that type of money (look at his numbers this year). I can think of a couple highly more effective ways to spend under 10 million, without looking further than Vanek's very team:
1) Daniel Briere. This guy is making an average of 6.5 million a year! Through three rounds he had the most game winning goals this playoffs, if memory serves me correctly. Far better than Vanek's 2008 performance.
2) Chris Drury. Drury is averaging $7.05 milion a season and is a leader and a worker (not to mention a better point-getter than Vanek).
The offer sheet was a claculated move by Lowe, taking a GM who had lost both captains and putting him with his back against the wall. He knew very well that they couldn't afford to lose all three and strangled the Sabres.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey''
Alright, let's look at this for a second.
Here are the reasons I would have paid Vanek before Briere or Drury.
1) Vanek has 36 goals, 64 points, and 19 PP goals last season on a team that did not make the playoffs. All this is less than 17 minutes a game. Compare this to Briere 31 goals and 71 points and 14 PP goals on a playoff team and Drury with 25 goals, and 58 points with 12 PP goals.
What I am saying is that the numbers are very comparible. However, Vanek played on a non-playoff team while Drury and Briere played on playoff teams.
2) Vanek is only 24. That's 6 and 7 years younger than Briere and Drury respectively. Most players do not hit their prime until their late 20's and early 30's. Drury and Briere are in their prime and Vanek is producing as much while he is still developing.
3) Vanek is a tank at 6'2" and 208 compared to Briere and Drury both listed at 5'10", Drury at 190, Briere at 179.
4) Career wise Drury is at .73 points per game, Briere is at .79. Vanek is at .8. Again, Vanek is proving to be as productive as Drury or Briere. Couple of other points. Briere was -22 last year(worst on the team by 10). Vanek has also only missed one game in the past three years.
I still like the offer to Vanek.
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 04:02:37
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July 9th, 2008
OK, so the Alex Blog isn’t the best with deadlines. Sue me. Time to deliver on a promise made about a week ago, namely more talking about free agents.
Marian Hossa, Detroit: Here’s hoping Detroit isn’t trying trademark Hossa a la Steven Stamkos. When you get too much talent that’s just idling around, sometimes it rots like last months bananas. The Detroit Red Wings would be erring on the side of stupidity if they even attempt giving this guy first line minutes. The Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom trio should be managed like a nuclear reactor in North Korea; don’t you dare touch it if you know what’s good for you! Hossa should play on the second line, with two main goals: 1) hopefully lure opposing first-line defensemen into playing some minutes against you, or 2) tear up the ice playing against tier two blue liners.
Jason Smith, Ottawa: Hangovers come in all shapes in sizes. The Ottawa Senators took a whole season to get their heads out of la-la land, but anyone who thinks they’re a sunken ship should re-evaluate before dialing for EMS. With Emery out, things turn around. Even if he wasn’t the problem, the Ottawa Senators can now assume he was, and give themselves an ‘excuse’ to turn things around. Jason Smith fits perfectly in Ottawa’s mid-life crisis. This is one of the most self-motivated players in the entire NHL. He knows how to lead without stealing the spotlight, and will do more for Ottawa’s defense than Jeremiah Wright did for Obama. That being said, he knows his place, and will gladly welcome his role as second in command to Alfie. If not for his playing ability or minute munching, you’ve got to look at this move with an open mind simply on the basis that it’s a symbolic U-turn for the Sens. Now if only they could find a flipping goalie…
Just about every FA earning upwards of a million, New York Rangers: Call me crazy, but wasn’t the whole point of the salary cap to make sure booming hockey markets (i.e. New York, Toronto) don’t call dibs on all the talent on trade deadline or Canada day? Honestly it doesn’t mean a flying rat’s ass to me because you don’t buy a champion out of a vending machine. The only way (IMO) to damage control for the Blue Shirts is interestingly enough through their pocket. Beans mentioned it elsewhere; the Alex Blog is just playing gofer. Markus Naslund’s already in New York. If the Rangers can bribe Mats Sundin into tri-citizenship, Foppa may very well be on deck. Screw the Triple Crown line – can you imagine the Triple Golden Crowns? Wow. Eat your heart out Red Wings!
Todd Bertuzzi, Calgary: Big Bert in Alberta? That’s like the Pope buying the sales pitch of those annoying door-to-door Jehovah’s witnesses! Many people think he is done, but I’ll tell ya, if he was looking to bounce back opportunity couldn’t have knocked on a better door. He’ll be the first to tell you he is a Flame because of Jarome. Clearly, he’s signing with Calgary out of zeal. That’s the only way a guy as down in the dumps as this can turn it around: passion. Sutter basically collected all the peanut shells from the Saddledome and used them towards Todd’s salary. Considering how little he is making, the upside of this deal is up to the imagination to decide!
McCain for President! |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 07:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
So Slozo and Andyhack, with all due respect, do not paint me with the "two wrongs don't make a right" brush. I know enough about the game, and life in general to have learned this lesson before puberty kicked in the 1980's.
Ahhh Puberty. Good times!
Excuse the nostalgic trip back there for a moment.
Leigh - I'll try to put my point in another way.
In my opinion the minimum length of the suspension in the Bertuzzi-Moore incident could have been determined by only looking at a few seconds of the replay of that incident. That is, the “sucker punch” part. That's it. At the first stage, the NHL didn't need to turn their minds to what happened before that moment (either in that game or the earlier game) and they didn't need to turn their minds to what happened after that moment (Moore's injury). Not one single ounce of thought/consideration/weight was needed on the before and after stuff. Moreover, not one single ounce of thought etc. was needed on the "what was Bertuzzi thinking" part. In my mind, all they needed to do is look at that replay, and without any further consideration, based on the act alone, dole out a very severe suspension, as a minimum.
In my book, the “context” related to the incident only needed to be considered once the NHL got to the stage of figuring out how much Bert should get above some severe minimum suspension (hopefully a hell of a lot more than 20 games). At that stage, if some call for more than whatever the minimum is, perhaps the “context” can be raised in support of Bert to keep the suspension at the minimum.
So, focusing on the topic the way you have framed it, I don’t think the NHL needed to look at either the “intent” or the “result” as determining factors at the first stage. Simply the act itself.
IAAC,
Borg’s winning the French and the Big W so many times was of course a huge accomplishment, and all due respect to Rafa (who deserves a lot of respect), but the accomplishment of the same player winning those two tourneys was bigger back then than now, as the grass was much faster back then and he had to play serve and volley to win the Big W, which totally went against Bjorn’s grain. Borg’s greatness is undeniable.
BUT, Bjorn has no grand slam titles elsewhere. Roger has 4 US Opens and 3 Australian Opens. Whether that should be regarded as greater than 6 French Opens is part of this question I suppose. I think it should actually, but even if I am wrong on that, if you look at the records overall against the competition in their respective periods as Number 1, as well as their overall records at the Grand Slams (giving points for finals and semi-final appearances), Roger has an edge over Bjorn. Federer may very well lose the Number 1 ranking this year, maybe even in the next few months, but to me the day he doesn’t make it to at least the semi-finals of one of the majors is a more significant turning point in tennis history. On that day, which may also come soon (has to come sooner or later!), a great and probably under-appreciated streak in sports will come to an end. The Federer “domination era” period seems to be at or coming to an end now, but until that pre-semi-finals loss comes, I think the guy continues to rack up a significant amount of points in discussions like this.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 09:23:57
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
So Slozo and Andyhack, with all due respect, do not paint me with the "two wrongs don't make a right" brush. I know enough about the game, and life in general to have learned this lesson before puberty kicked in the 1980's.
....In my opinion the minimum length of the suspension in the Bertuzzi-Moore incident could have been determined by only looking at a few seconds of the replay of that incident. That is, the “sucker punch” part. That's it......
Excuse me for jumping in, but I am not sure when we allowed ourselves to become the knee-jerk disciplinarians we, as hockey fans have. With the most respect, AndyHack, you say address the Bertuzzi incident on the act, not the result, and because of the act, not the result, punish him accordingly. 20 games is not nearly enough in your opinion.
I notice from your profile, you and I are about a year apart, meaning we should have similar hockey memories. Think back to when the dinosaurs used to lace em' up, and remember similar incidents where the punishments were similar/ less than equal to Bertuzzi's for the act not the result.
The ones that come to mind to me immediately;
Tie Domi's viscious bare-knuckled knockout punch on Ulf Samuellsson, 8 games....
Dave Brown's viscious cross-check to Tomas Sandstrom's face, 15 games...
These incidents, while not acceptable, are nothing new and bearing previous disciplinary history in mind, the punishment may have fit the crime...
Like Leigh stated, the game unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your stance, has it's own set of rules on occasion, and due to the physical nature of the game, these blatant fouls will continue. Hopefully, the league will continue to dole out the punishment with, in my opinion, the same well thought out manner they have..
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro
499 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 10:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
I notice from your profile, you and I are about a year apart, meaning we should have similar hockey memories. Think back to when the dinosaurs used to lace em' up, and remember similar incidents where the punishments were similar/ less than equal to Bertuzzi's for the act not the result.
The ones that come to mind to me immediately;
Tie Domi's viscious bare-knuckled knockout punch on Ulf Samuellsson, 8 games....
Dave Brown's viscious cross-check to Tomas Sandstrom's face, 15 games...
These incidents, while not acceptable, are nothing new and bearing previous disciplinary history in mind, the punishment may have fit the crime...
lol that is true but you have to remember that back then you could bike without wearing a helmet; rollarskate without wearing knee, elbow and butt pads, play with plastic bags, have sword fights with sticks and all sorts of other things that are considered dangerous!  times change and now the entire world is MUCH more safety conscious.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull. |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 11:17:29
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quote:
The Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom trio should be managed like a nuclear reactor in North Korea; don’t you dare touch it if you know what’s good for you!
Haha yeah, if it´s not broken why fix it?
No Hossa is a second liner on the Wings. I think his playing style mix well with Detroits but I´m not sure his mentality is fire proof. But Detroit will probably affect him more than the other way around. He will contribute to Wings back to back cup win in 09 (fingers crossed).
quote:
If the Rangers can bribe Mats Sundin into tri-citizenship, Foppa may very well be on deck. Screw the Triple Crown line – can you imagine the Triple Golden Crowns? Wow. Eat your heart out Red Wings!
As much as I would love to see that happen I think Foppas injuries have taken it´s toll on this very competitive-minded athlete. If he can´t give it 100% I don´t think he wants to play anymore. He is to make some more surgeries one final time to make his body work but honestly I think you have seen the last of Foppa, in the NHL at least 
quote:
but the accomplishment of the same player winning those two tourneys was bigger back then than now, as the grass was much faster back then and he had to play serve and volley to win the Big W, which totally went against Bjorn’s grain.
Very good point there Andy. Heard there are talks to "make the grass faster" again. So Federers Wimbledon days are far from over in any way. If Federer and Rafa would have met in 1978 do you think Rafa would have won then? Personally I don´t.
I may come off as anti Federer wich is not my intention at all as I think he´s great. My intention was to highlight Borg as a really good tennis player because it seems like he´s a bit underrated in English speaking countries.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 11:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN
lol that is true but you have to remember that back then you could bike without wearing a helmet; rollarskate without wearing knee, elbow and butt pads, play with plastic bags, have sword fights with sticks and all sorts of other things that are considered dangerous! times change and now the entire world is MUCH more safety conscious.
"I'm not dumb enough to be a goalie."
Brett Hull.
I hear ya....today we are much more safety conscious....now all we have to deal with are drive-bys, carjackings and violent home invasions.....kinda makes a hockey mugging...look tame |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 16:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Alright, let's look at this for a second.
Here are the reasons I would have paid Vanek before Briere or Drury.
1) Vanek has 36 goals, 64 points, and 19 PP goals last season on a team that did not make the playoffs. All this is less than 17 minutes a game. Compare this to Briere 31 goals and 71 points and 14 PP goals on a playoff team and Drury with 25 goals, and 58 points with 12 PP goals.
What I am saying is that the numbers are very comparible. However, Vanek played on a non-playoff team while Drury and Briere played on playoff teams.
2) Vanek is only 24. That's 6 and 7 years younger than Briere and Drury respectively. Most players do not hit their prime until their late 20's and early 30's. Drury and Briere are in their prime and Vanek is producing as much while he is still developing.
3) Vanek is a tank at 6'2" and 208 compared to Briere and Drury both listed at 5'10", Drury at 190, Briere at 179.
4) Career wise Drury is at .73 points per game, Briere is at .79. Vanek is at .8. Again, Vanek is proving to be as productive as Drury or Briere. Couple of other points. Briere was -22 last year(worst on the team by 10). Vanek has also only missed one game in the past three years.
I still like the offer to Vanek.
Beans they don't lie when they say you know your hockey inside out! Very nice job, I stand corrected. HOWEVER, that still does not change my opinion on Kevin Lowe. I really do not believe he particularily wanted Vanek, I think he just selected him based on the knowledge that Buffalo was in a tight spot. In general, I think that team has no idea what it wants. It just wants talent that can get the fans excited.
Basically every free agent this season has been expressed as the subject of interest by the Oilers franchise, Marrian Hossa being probably the most notable. Now please tell me where and how Hossa fits on the Oilers?? Kevin Lowe needs to build a team, not sign a bunch of individual talent. I think you'd be hard pressed to say that I'm wrong here.
Certain GMs know exactly who fits their mold; some are all over the map. Lowe fits into the second category and it's kind of annoying.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 17:13:25
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I just can't believe for a second that Lowe (or any GM, for that matter) would make a contract offer to anyone with the sole intent of forcing his team's hand in signing him for the higher salary. He offered him $50M over 7 years; although at this point last year the offer seemed way too high, today it only appears to be a little high for his services, and at this point next season it should seem adequate (assuming Vanek doesn't bottom out in the meantime). If the offer was that ridiculous, then a manager in that position has to consider the possibility that he would get 'stuck' with the guy he made the over-offer to. Just believing the other GM's claim that they'll sign him no matter what he gets offered is pretty naive too.
"Hey guys, don't bother offering my guy a contract cause we'll match it!"...uh, ya right, Darcy, whatever you say. How about you put your money where your mouth is. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 18:09:34
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July 10, 2008
Time to get out your debating hat again PickUpHockey. This one courtesy of a DVD my brother got for his birthday, NHL’s Greatest Moments. While watching it, a red flag went up. Beans and Andy, it involves two of the best players in your franchise’s history so it’d be a nice treat to get your feedback. Please and thanks!
When you think Ray Bourque, what do you think? If you sampled a room filled with a hundred people, five bucks says ninety-nine would associate him with Boston. Double or nothing, the one black sheep in the group was born circa 1994. For my generation, Ray Bourque means an old man crying while hoisting a cup that is bound to flare up his back in the morning. In fact, a couple years ago I thought Ray Bourque was one of Colorado’s franchise players. Sad, isn’t it? The highest scoring NHL defense in history, a staple of the Boston Bruins, and your average young fan has him pegged on another franchise.
Try the same exercise with Mark Messier. That same kid would probably think of a bald eccentric [ADMIN EDIT - CONTENT REMOVED]jumping in front of thousands at Madison Square Gardens with the cup over his head. Again, first inclination would be to associate him with New York.
Two perfect examples of Mr. Franchise moving elsewhere. To me though, Messier’s cup in New York is a million times more palpable than Bourque’s being a passenger on the Avs bandwagon.
There are a couple of key differences.
1) Mark Messier was on New York for nine years (three at the time of the Cup); Raymond, two (in fact it should have been a one-stop thing to get his quick fix, but they messed that up in 2000; that’s the only reason he was there two seasons). Actually, Ray didn’t even want to play in Colorado. He wanted to play for the Flyers; it was his GM who told him that he thought he’d have a better shot in Denver.
2) Mark Messier was the definition of the ’94 Rangers. He led them to their cup. His legacy as a great captain stems largely from game six and seven of the final series. Messier snapped a 54 year old curse and hand-delivered the championship. He and many other ex-Oilers were on a mission to bring success to another franchise. This was a guy that had already won five Stanley Cups in his career. The sixth was a gift to the people of New York. Conversely, Ray Borque was simply there for the ride. He wasn’t nearly a fan favourite in Denver the same way Sakic, Foppa or Roy were. When Messier won his cup, his joy was for the city; when Bourque won his cup, the city’s joy was for him.
This is clearly a very controversial stance on my part. By no means am I looking to belittle one of the greatest feel-good stories in the history of the game. Ray deserved the cup. I’m just suggesting that the fashion in which he won it was a little cheesy. Curious to see what the consensus is on this one.
Proudly Celebrating 50 Blogs and Counting |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2008 : 19:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
July 10, 2008
When Messier won his cup, his joy was for the city; when Bourque won his cup, the city’s joy was for him.
Proudly Celebrating 50 Blogs and Counting
It was pretty widely accepted that Bourque wanted to go to a contender and contribute to a contender - both of which did happen. It has happened many times - some successful, most not.
He contributed a lot, so it isn't considered any less than any other player's championship performance. Keep in mind, he had to come back the following year to win it all, so it was no gimme.
The Rangers hadn't won a cup since 1940, the Avs since '96. Not nearly as much of a story there. Plus the Rangers' cup was more unexpected - they had last made the Finals in 1979, and only 3 times since 1940. That's 3 Finals appearances in 53 years.
Conversely, this was the Av's fifth trip to the semis in 6 years, about to win their second cup in the same span - not as thrilling for news-copy.
And, finally, the series between NYR and Vancouver is regarded as one of the most exciting in the last couple of decades.
I guess what I'm saying is, hockey fans are happy for both guys, and both guys were pretty darn happy about winning the cup. Whether one was more meaningful than the other can be attributed to the back-stories and observations I laid out.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2008 : 05:50:52
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Alex - Ray was far from a "passenger" on that team.
Having said that, I would agree with anyone who says it would have been a way nicer and way more meaningful story had he won it in Boston. If that is your point, then I would agree. And so would Ray by the way.
Ray was clearly fortunate to have been traded to a very good team. But being fortunate appears to be part of many player's legacies (Ken Dryden for instance) as much as being unfortunate (Brad Park for instance).
But the story could have been very different. He could have gone to the Avs and not won there. Sports fans often seem to forget that nothing in sports is a "gimme". Everything is very hard-earned. In tennis people sometimes put down the legacy of Steffi Graf because of what happened to Monica Seles (stabbed right at the point in history that she seemed to be taking over from Graf). Graf went out after Seles was stabbed and basically won almost everything for a few years. Should Graf be faulted for winning even though she was fortunate that her main rival was no longer around? Should we forget that the result could have been very different? She could have lost an edge and not won anything after that. Or how about Nadal at the Big W? Guys like me say "Hey, the courts were faster in years back". Well, I say it simply to point out a fact, BUT I don't think Nadal should be "faulted" for his good fortune. He still very well could have lost EVEN THOUGH the grass courts have been made slower. But he won, and he did so because he played the best that he could in the circumstances given to him. Ray did too.
I know, hockey is a team sport, the circumstances are different from my examples.... That's true, but I think there is a general point up there somewhere that is somewhat transferable across all sports and all circumstances.
If Ray's win was cheesy it was a nice brie cheese that should be enjoyed and savoured.
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Fat Elvis - I hated Ulfie so Domi should have been given an award for that move. Just kidding - it was vicious, and I think the NHL should be extremely strict with any acts which are "vicious" and do not have anything to do with the course of the game.
As for the other incidents, I think the whole concept of "precedent" is somewhat overrated, and this again goes back to my feeling that the expression "two wrongs don't make a right" has basically been ignored by mankind since the day of the little potato (sorry Leigh - but I do feel this way). In my world people would do what they felt was right on every occasion, using the past as a reference without being bound by it. If determined that we screwed up in the past, then we screwed up. Leave it there and move on.
Sorry for the theoretical stuff, but this site is a good place for throwing out your thoughts without the people around you throwing their beers at you - in other words, a safer forum for me than a bar.
Edit - IAAC - No, I don't think Nadal would have won in '78. Nor '88 , '98 or 2004.
Edit 2 - I must admit that I kind of enjoyed watching that Domi-Ulfie thing again - thanks |
Edited by - andyhack on 07/10/2008 06:10:41 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2008 : 11:33:40
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quote:
Originally posted by andyhack
being fortunate appears to be part of many player's legacies (Ken Dryden for instance) as much as being unfortunate (Brad Park for instance).
This is one of the most intelligent observations I've read in a long time. This should be posted up somewhere. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2008 : 12:07:05
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quote:
Originally posted by BradTheBadDad
Beans they don't lie when they say you know your hockey inside out! Very nice job, I stand corrected. HOWEVER, that still does not change my opinion on Kevin Lowe. I really do not believe he particularily wanted Vanek, I think he just selected him based on the knowledge that Buffalo was in a tight spot. In general, I think that team has no idea what it wants. It just wants talent that can get the fans excited.
Basically every free agent this season has been expressed as the subject of interest by the Oilers franchise, Marrian Hossa being probably the most notable. Now please tell me where and how Hossa fits on the Oilers?? Kevin Lowe needs to build a team, not sign a bunch of individual talent. I think you'd be hard pressed to say that I'm wrong here.
Certain GMs know exactly who fits their mold; some are all over the map. Lowe fits into the second category and it's kind of annoying.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey''
I am not hard pressed to say you are wrong at all. Kevin Lowe has built a team. Now he is looking to add the final few pieces to the puzzle, one being a top 6 forward.
How can yo usay Kevin Lowe needs to build a team? He started doing that a few years ago at the trade deadline with the move of Ryan Smyth. Since and including that move the Oilers have signed, traded for, or moved from the minors to have a pretty solid team. Garon, Souray, Cogliano, Gagner, Gilbert, Nilsson, Brodziak, Grebeshkov, Penner, and now Vishnovsky and Eric Cole. Add that to Horcoff, Hemsky, Staios, Moreau, Pisani, and Smid. A great mix of youth and experience and I think you would be hard press to disagree with the following. The Oilers need another top 6 forward and to maintain the same goaltending numbers from Garon (.913 save % and .550 win percentage) and will have a very ligitimate shot a winning the NW division this year.
And how can you possibly say that Hossa doesn't fit the mold of the Oilers?? Have you watched the Oilers play in the past three years. They are a team that focus on speed and solid management of the puck. Is that not Hossa to a tee???
Please try to disagree that a line of Hossa-Horcoff-Hemsky would be anything outside of one of the top 5 forward lines in the league. Name more than 5 lines that would be better than that??
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2008 : 17:23:18
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July 11, 2008
Alright, enough already! I’ve stood over at the Gatorade cooler for as long as I can remember watching the back and forth: fighting vs. no fighting. Time to chime in. No, fighting should not be allowed in the NHL. Period.
Believe you me, a good ol’ Domi uppercut tickles my insides as much as the next guy. That being said, it’s another case of a rule that benefits a select few at the expense of the masses. For every good fight after a whistle, there are ten jamborees where guys crowd around awkwardly like freshmen in front of the sorority girl. A lot of fights end up as two guys holding each other and doing a little salsa dance; others are broken up prematurely; others feature two minutes of guys skating around in a circle seemingly waiting for manna to fall from the heavens. And the odd scrap that does get off the ground features Dan Carcillo vs. Jared Boll… oh goody! A nice old fashioned boxing match between the hottest rivals in NHL history, the Phoenix Coyotes and their repulsive logo squaring up with the Columbus Blue Jackets and their zero franchise playoff games all time. Should make for a great matinee!
NHL fighting is so stupid today that a Timogachi would probably keep me interested longer. Who wants to see bench-clearing brawls in a 5-0 game? Who wants to see the same two players go at it three times in one game? What does it say about their hockey ability if their time is better spent sitting half the game in the box than on the ice? Who wants to see players that never get any ice time go into battle while the stars between whom the actual rivalry exists sit on the bench and shmooze with the equipment manager? It’s pathetic. In the olden days fighting was a gem. When Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard would drop the mitts, well then you have a real fight. When two players who probably share the same steroid dealer pretend to be at odds with each other so they can put food on the table, the whole point goes straight through the floor cracks.
In today’s NHL, real fights would never exist. Wayne Gretzky wasn’t made on the same assembly line as Howe or Richard; they’d mop up the floor with him if he tried to flirt with the goons. Plus anyways, if I’m a fan, a real fan, I’m pissed as hell watching Jarome Iginla fight in a 1-1 playoff game (which is technically the best scenario for a fight: close game, high stakes, team leader drops the gloves). Why am I piping hot? Because my leader is too busy feeding his ego EDIT: didn't mean Iginla, meant in general key guys who can't control their hot head and place the priority on the game as opposed to settling a score with a pest to notice that he is buying himself a one-way ticket to five minutes of solitude while his teammates trek on without him.
Fighting has lost its appeal. Like I’ve said, for every good fight there’s a ballet dance-off between Dion Phaneuf and Jarkko Ruutu. When you consider that the upside is close to zilch, the glaring downside can’t be ignored: possibility for injury, terrible influence on youth, money laundering by goons who shouldn’t be in the NHL at the expense of higher skilled but lighter counterparts. The list goes on.
*Next blog hereby dedicated to responding to your comments on the fighting debate.
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting |
Edited by - Alex on 07/11/2008 14:11:53 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 01:32:43
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There are many players that would not be so inclined to hug eachother in pansy scrums if they knew that even pretending to try to fight meant that they would truly have to fight!
Again, it polices the whole situation.
If you cannot fight, you don't even pretend to be a tough guy, you don't even try to sneak a cheap shot in there because that John Ferguson over there protecting Cournoyer will surely give you your justice. Whether it be today, or the next time you're in town (Philly flu, anyone??)
By the way, JF had 303 pts in 500 NHL games (a one time 29 goal scorer too), so don't even pretend he didn't have skills. Back in the hey-day, tough guys had some skills, and skilled guys were at least a little tough (Howe? Richard? Mikita?)
I am starting to believe that my game has been ruined....it's HOCKEY, not figure skating with pucks!!
Edited for spelling ("been" ruined) |
Edited by - 99pickles on 07/11/2008 06:14:55 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 09:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
July 11, 2008
When Gordie Howe and Maurice Richard would drop the mitts, well then you have a real fight.
In today’s NHL, real fights would never exist.
Plus anyways, if I’m a fan, a real fan, I’m pissed as hell watching Jarome Iginla fight in a 1-1 playoff game (which is technically the best scenario for a fight: close game, high stakes, team leader drops the gloves). Why am I piping hot? Because my leader is too busy feeding his ego to notice that he is buying himself a one-way ticket to five minutes of solitude while his teammates trek on without him.
Fighting has lost its appeal.
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting
I just highlighted a few points from this latest blog to say, "WTF???"
How can you say that it was ok and a "real fight" when Howe and Richard dropped'em, yet Iginla is feeding his ego?? Seriously, this is way off base.
And the fight does more than entertain the fans. It usually happens when one team is dominating the physical play and/or taking liberties with the playes on the opposing team. The fight doesn't have to be won from the one side to send the message. It simply says "we are not going to take this and we will fight back."
In a 1-1 game, if Iginla drops the mitts, I guarentee that it's not in the last 10 minutes of the game. Also, I would say that when a "star player" fights, the team kills the penalty 97 times out of 100. A fight inspires the team and even more so when your superstar leader drops the mitts and stands up for himself and his whole team.
I recall when Jason Smith was an Oiler and the leader of the team. When he fought, he almost always got worked. However, the effect it had on the team was intense. It was almost like a switch went off and the Oilers collectively said, "It's go time boys."
Fighting in hockey sways momentum and creates rivalries. Through the 80's and before, there was no way to start a rivalry faster than a bench clearking brawl. That's hasn't happened in forever. Whyt has it been that traditionally the most successful teams had at least one uber tough guy??
Hockey without momentum shifts and rivalries is figure staking. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 10:48:05
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No offense Alex but have you even seen a Richard or a Howe fight? You're romanticizing. But it's not your fault, history has a way of doing that. One day we'll talk about the good ol' days when Iginla used to drop the gloves in a 1-1 game to inspire his team. "Now that was leadership" we'll say.
Beans you read my mind in your last post. |
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro
USA
365 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 10:59:27
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As I understand it - Non-fighters fight with emotion and are reactive. Fighters fight within "the code". Both have their place in the game.
As soon as a player signs on the dotted line to receive multi-million dollar contracts, they agree that they are playing a risky sport and are there to entertain the fans. In hockey this means some fighting from time to time. So hockey players need to know your role and do it! Period!
I know you're just a boy still but it's time to become a man! |
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 11:03:07
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Alex, you know I love your blog but you still have to follow the forum rules. Please be aware of other active threads and try not to duplicate subjects. AS YOU KNOW (because you made reference to it in your opening paragraph) there is currently a fighting thread active. You're post would have been a great addition to that thread.
http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4378
Thank you. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 15:08:14
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July 11, 2008
Sports thrive on rivalries, and hockey is no exception to that rule. Over the years, lots of bad blood has been stirred up on all levels and stages. AskMen.com decided to compile a list of the Top 10 Hockey Rivalries ever.
http://ca.askmen.com/sports/fitness_top_ten_60/80_fitness_list.html
10) Bruins vs. Canadiens; 9) Lindros vs. Quebec; 8) Don Cherry vs. the Politically Correct; 7) U.S. vs. Soviet Union; 6) Canadiens vs. Nordiques; 5) Canada vs. Soviet Union; 4) Players vs. Owners; 3) Leafs vs. Canadiens; 2) Flames vs. Oilers; 1) Canada vs. US
Oh boy. First of all number nine and eight are cop-outs by the writer who doesn’t want to sift through old footage to find a real rivalry, so he makes one up. Congrats. Second of all, there’s a snowball’s chance in hell that number four should be anywhere on this list. Two lockouts in over ninety years of play, both in recent history, and you call it a better rivalry than Canadians VS. Russia or Bruins VS. Habs? What breakfast do they feed you on Mars? Over in Canada we eat Shreddies with The Great One on the box, not Gary Bettman.
And why is the Battle of Alberta above the Canadiens / Leafs rivalry? The latter has four-hundred years of history at its roots. The Montreal / Toronto shtick is the New World’s answer to France vs. England, Catholic vs. Protestant. What do Albertans have to fight about, which city gets to air the season premier of Corner Gas?
Enough with the history bit; let’s look at Montreal vs. Toronto in hockey terms. These teams have bumped into each other a total of fifteen times in the post-season – five times with all the marbles on the line. The series is much closer than Edmonton / Calgary. It’s a modest 8 to 7 in favour of Montreal. This bitter feud is represented in popular media (ex. ‘The Hockey Sweater’). A politician is not defined by his alignment to the left or right, but which jersey he has stashed away in his closet. Putting Calgary vs. Edmonton in the same boat is legitimizing the tiff between Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Anistson: it’s cute, but at the end of the day Jolie has Brad and Jennifer has her comfort foods (sorry Calgary fans!)
Oh, and why on God’s green earth is the Canada / U.S. rivalry deemed worse than the Canada / Soviet one? Ever heard of the Summit Series? Players’ legacies were made in those eight games: Bobby Clarke, Paul Henderson, Vladislav Tretiak… How about the New Year’s Classic? It wasn’t between the Canadiens and the New York Americans was it? I seem to recall a team from Russia. Our greatest defeats and most memorable triumphs came at the hands of the USSR. How many times have the Americans stood us up on the world stage? Once. And it was before many of us were even sperm.
If this were my list: 10) Don Cherry vs. the Politically Correct; 9) Lindros vs. Quebec; 8) Players vs. Owners; 7) Flames vs. Oilers; 6) U.S. vs. Soviet Union; 5) Canadiens vs. Nordiques; 4) Bruins vs. Canadiens; 3) Canada vs. US; 2) Canada vs. Soviet Union; 1) Leafs vs. Canadiens
Thoughts?
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting |
Edited by - Alex on 07/13/2008 04:49:14 |
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Guest9874
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Posted - 07/11/2008 : 15:59:57
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| alex you should switch around bruins v habs with habs v quebec, the bruins had a little thin goin in the 70s but quebec v habs even though short would have been even better than t.o. vs. mtl if it had lasted |
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Canada - Russia rap 
