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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
 Posted - 06/23/2008 : 06:35:25
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[quote]Originally posted by Alex
June 23, 2008
Is the National Hockey League the best place to play in the world? Depends who you ask.
Yes, if you ask me. A hockey player anywhere in the world with a burning desire to succeed in hockey should make his way to the NHL. That would be the "best" place for him in my opinion.
As a player from overseas, what does the NHL have that some Toppen Hockey Förbund can't provide? Mother Russia rolls out the red carpet and serves you on a silver platter. Their portfolio offers twelve million reasons why you should play for them – pretty compelling stuff.
Yes, but there is more to life than money. There is, for example, knowing that you have done the best with what you have got. Overall, with some exceptions I admit, the best hockey players in the world are offered by the NHL. So if you don't want to play there you don't want to play with the best. If you are a really good hockey player, and you don't want to play with the best, unless you are of an extremely laid-back nature with relatively little fire inside, you won't be truly happy inside.
How can you be so sure the who’s who of the hockey world are all playing in the NHL? I bet there are scores of Tretiaks who could have skated circles around the guys in the NHL if they wanted to but elected not to make the trip. Over in Japan, the demand for hockey is booming. The best hockey player in the world may very well be named Ying Yang Lee and we would never know it.
First, Mr. Lee would be Chinese, not Japanese. Mr. Kobayashi would be Japanese. Secondly, I don't know if the demand for hockey is "booming" in Japan, but earlier this month when I was there and mentioned "Gretzky" to some Japanese guys they thought I was talking about the "Great ski -- ing" in Canada. True story.
Why would a legend in Sweden want to come over to North American shores and have to sell himself anew to an audience that wouldn’t know him from a lady’s perfume?
If for no other reason to make sure that people in a great hockey nation such as Canada do know him from a lady's perfume - as If he comes over here on a trip, says his name, and people immediately bring him lady's perfume, his hot Swedish girlfriend might start wondering about him - not that there's anything wrong that .
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As for other topics:
1. Federer-Borg - I hear you but you can't totally discount the 3 Australians. It wasn't nearly as big in Borg's day true, but it IS big now, and Roger has done pretty well there so should get at least some points in this discussion for that. Also, I view the U.S. Open as slightly ahead of the French in terms of prestige, but admit that this is simply because I grew up in N.A. (and I guess also because I grew up in the 70s, and back then there was a clearer difference in prestige in the U.S. Opens favor). Also, my point about competition in the early rounds needs to be factored in. Borg's 4 U.S. Open finals are less impressive when you think of the significantly easier road he had in the earlier rounds back then.
2. Willus - arigato. My post count actually has pretty well stalled lately. I haven't had a whole lot of time to post and summer is not really hockey time for me anyway. Anyway, you are only a "wuss" to the extent that if you say your name REALLY fast, it kind of comes out that way .
3. Alex - you are a character. That's a compliment.
Edit - I'm a bit afraid to ask this question actually, but anyone ever find out whatever happened to Pucknuts? |
Edited by - andyhack on 06/23/2008 06:57:57 |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2008 : 12:34:47
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[quote]Originally posted by Alex
Is the National Hockey League the best place to play in the world? Depends who you ask.
Overall skillwise? Yes. Best paycheck? Not since the Russian Super League got overflooded with petro/oligark dollars. Easier transition for players from west-european nations than move to russia? Very likely so.
As a player from overseas, what does the NHL have that some Toppen Hockey Förbund can't provide?
Props for what I assume is an attempt at swedish. But I´m a bit curious, what is Toppen Hockey Förbund in english?
How can you be so sure the who’s who of the hockey world are all playing in the NHL? I bet there are scores of Tretiaks who could have skated circles around the guys in the NHL if they wanted to but elected not to make the trip. Over in Japan, the demand for hockey is booming. The best hockey player in the world may very well be named Ying Yang Lee and we would never know it. The fact of the matter is, the NHL is just not reaching out to all the best players in the world. As a foreigner, the grass is greener at home.
There are as you said many good players who don´t play in the NHL atm or never will. Take the Jönsson brothers for example: one of the worlds best d-men play in a swedish tier two league (Kenny Jönsson). The other twin brother Jörgen Jönsson was imo the best boxplay specialist for a couple of years, he has gotten a bit old now but he´s still really good.
The russian leagues are scary nowadays no matter the sport. Just look at the European Football Championship, a russian no-name team kicked Swedish and Dutch butt and are very likely to win it all. Btw the EC are by many considered harder to win than the WC because there are normally only good teams participating (this years host nations are a bit on the weak side though).
Hockey booming in Japan? HaHaHa not likely, nhl.com said the same thing about France and some other country recently and have as much credibility as Fox News or CNN. Hockey as a sport are on the other hand on the rise in nations like Denmark, Germany and Switzerland. (Won´t take to long before we´ll see Switzerland in the semis I think.
Andy:
We´ll just have to agree that both Borg and Federer are legendary tennis players
Borg said recently he believes Nadal will win Wimbledon this year. If so will that affect your opinion of Federer as the greatest contemporary tennis player?
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Edited by - I´m also Cånädiön on 06/23/2008 12:38:58 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2008 : 13:53:22
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June 23, 2008 (II)
The NHL can’t keep snapping its fingers and expect to find European players running back to their side like dogs on a leash. Either the salary cap goes, or the players do. Elementary, my dear Watson. The tail wags the dog.
From the outside it seems like another case of the boy that cried wolf, but you just watch. Money is money. Malkin might be the grand Samaritan today. Tomorrow he will be leading an Exodus back to Old Country. All it takes is one Malkin or Ovechkin to go, and the floodgates are open. You know Hydra, the freakishly odd character from Hercules? Think that but hockey style.
The only thing the NHL has on other leagues is talent from all over the world. If that talent leaves, the NHL goes kaput. This proposition actually interests me. Frankly, it’s become a great big bore. Think about it. Olympics, World Championships, Canada Cup, Spengler Cup, World Cup, Protective Cup… it’s all the same nowadays. ‘Ho-hum, another tournament; I think I’ll watch The Hills tonight.’ Tell me when was the last time the country rallied together like they did for the ’72 Summit Series. It’s freaking national heritage. And today? ‘Russia won the World Cup, but there’s always next month.’
The idea of an exclusively North American NHL excites me. Yes, it means we miss out on watching great foreigners. Then again, we aren’t living in the Stone Age! It’s the new millennium guys, there’s such a thing as Google Video. The pros outweigh the cons. International hockey has so much more to gain that North American hockey has to lose.
Words by nature limit concepts and ideas, and writer's block won't allow me to describe the lost magic of decades gone by. Many of us weren’t even sperm at the time so the imagination takes over, but from what people say about it in books, documentaries and museums, the Summit Series was one for the ages. Assemblies were held in day schools with live broadcasts of the eighth game. Workers called in sick, office buildings closed down; coast to coast, the country held its breath and waited.
You either know what I’m getting at or you don’t. It’s like trying to describe the Seven Wonders of the World do Hellen Keller.
Probably a good idea for me to go take a nap, graduating in a couple hours . Give me your feedback!
Homework: Senior readers do us a favour and write in your personal stories about the Summit Series or other notable events (for example the New Years Eve classic between the Canadiens and Dynamo Russia.) We want to know just how great it was!
-The New Kid on the Block |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 04:13:08
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I also am curious to know what an all-North American NHL would look like. I wouldn't make it a goal to kick out the foreigners, but as you said, accept it if that's what happened over the course of due time.
One thing you said should really be taken seriously by the NHL: the tail wags the dog. If the players leave, the NHL is no longer the place to be. That simple....
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
Edited by - BradTheBadDad on 06/24/2008 04:13:28 |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 08:49:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
June 23, 2008 (II)
From the outside it seems like another case of the boy that cried wolf, but you just watch. Money is money. Malkin might be the grand Samaritan today. Tomorrow he will be leading an Exodus back to Old Country. All it takes is one Malkin or Ovechkin to go, and the floodgates are open. You know Hydra, the freakishly odd character from Hercules? Think that but hockey style.
Don´t think you have to worry about that for quite some time if it ever happens, as Andy said there are other motives than money why people play in the NHL.
The only thing the NHL has on other leagues is talent from all over the world. If that talent leaves, the NHL goes kaput. This proposition actually interests me. Frankly, it’s become a great big bore. Think about it. Olympics, World Championships, Canada Cup, Spengler Cup, World Cup, Protective Cup… it’s all the same nowadays. ‘Ho-hum, another tournament; I think I’ll watch The Hills tonight.’ Tell me when was the last time the country rallied together like they did for the ’72 Summit Series. It’s freaking national heritage. And today? ‘Russia won the World Cup, but there’s always next month.
[blue] Hockey should get inspired by Football imo, one WC every four years and one Olympics in between, drop the other international tournaments. That should bring up the exitement.
The idea of an exclusively North American NHL excites me. Yes, it means we miss out on watching great foreigners. Then again, we aren’t living in the Stone Age! It’s the new millennium guys, there’s such a thing as Google Video. The pros outweigh the cons. International hockey has so much more to gain that North American hockey has to lose.
[blue] Again I would go to football for ideas. I would like to see a Hockey version of Champions League. Some of the best teams from the best hockey league in each nation duke it out to become the best club-team in the world. It would be a great way to raise the quality in the different leagues and i think it would make hockey interesting to more and more people even in nations who isn´t typical hockeynations.
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Edited by - I´m also Cånädiön on 06/24/2008 08:55:08 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 14:00:15
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I’mAlsoCanadion, my intent actually was to throw out an idea similar to the ‘Champions League’ system in soccer but it slipped my mind. My thanks on bringing that one up and being a great contributor and regular to my blog!
June 24, 2008
Judicial systems are a marvel. You can legally snort Coke in Vancouver, fire a gun in Texas and marry a homo in California. In contrast, try entering Kennedy Airport with a nail filer and see where you end up.
The NHL must be governed by the same school of thought as the free world. Bone-crunching hits are encouraged. Fighting is applauded. Calling a penalty in overtime is a no-no.
Now try using a Synergy with a ‘C’ curve in the very same league that promotes violence and aggression. Might as well flirt with the devil.
The illegal stick rule is moronic on a number of counts.
First of all, no one respects it to begin with. Players resort to bush-league tactics several times a game by switching between legal sticks and their illegal counterparts. And why not? The only person with the power to indict offenders is an opposing coach. The penalty for false accusations is a delay of game penalty to the plaintiff. What type of preposterous rule is left for an involved party to determine? How many sex-offenders would never be brought to justice if their victims faced time behind bars for losing the case? Ridiculous.
Second of all, it’s another one of those ‘loser’s way to win.’ The McSorley call of 1993 might be the most infamous of them all. As one of the noted Canadiens fan on these forums, I can hold my head high and say that a hockey game (or really, a Stanley Cup) should not come down to that. Jacques Demers was desperate to win on a loophole and he did. Going down kicking a screaming should not entail making up allegations and praying to be right.
And finally, I fail to see the advantage in favouring one stick type over another. Puck protection is an understandable benefit that comes with increased curve, but at the expense of wild shots every now and then. Flatter blades allow you to harness maximum puck-receiving abilities on both forehand and backhand. Many other factors underscore cases for both. We can confidently presume that you stand to lose just as much as you stand to gain when you go for more curve in the blade.
I’m no Fibonacci, but I will say this. The Curvy vs. Flat debate is much more relevant in sororities than on the ice. ‘Nuf said.
-The New Kid on the Block |
Edited by - Alex on 06/26/2008 08:55:52 |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 15:35:02
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Another great post. Your words ring true and make sense, Alex.
I have a request. For tomorrow, could you please talk about the Sundin situation? I don't know if you agree with the Guest Guru but in the case that you don't this would make a great debate! Nothing better than a debate between a Habs fan and a Leafs fan!
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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MardiGras
Top Prospect
20 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2008 : 18:07:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
I’mAlsoCanadion, my intent actually was to throw out an idea similar to the ‘Champions League’ system in soccer but it slipped my mind. My thanks on bringing that one up and being a great contributor and regular to my blog!
June 24, 2008
Judicial systems are a marvel. You can legally snort Coke in Vancouver, fire a gun in Texas and marry a homo in California. In contrast, try entering Kennedy Airport with a nail filer and see where you end up.
I’m no Fibonacci, but I will say this. The Curvy vs. Flat debate is much more relevant in sororities than on the ice. ‘Nuf said.
-The New Kid on the Block
Incredible! i luv how you fit humour, a good hockey argument (most important) and a hook all under 500 words. so good |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2008 : 04:20:16
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June 25, 2008
Nowhere do we see the ‘what have you done for me lately’ attitude more than in NHL circles.
AndyHack said it best. Canadiens fans claim to despise Patrick Roy like some unwanted tag-a-long dork at a College party. Yet the championships he won for their city? Those they’ll accept. Don’t tell me we’re comparing apples to oranges when Sundin is put in the same boat as Patrick Roy.
Leafs fans are generically labeled as obnoxious brats. Personally, I harbour no ill-feelings towards them, nor to any other fan of the NHL. That being said, the stuff they’ve come up with in the past few months is enough to piss off even Ghandi himself.
Let’s establish something. Mats Sundin is the single-best Maple Leaf of all-time, points wise. He is in many opinions (including mine) their best captain ever. He has given 110% to a city that bites the hand that feeds them. Mats could likely have been double the player he was in a number of other settings.
The bleedingly obvious absurdity of the whole situation can drive a guy loopy. Here you have the most respected Leaf of all time and you send some saggy prune-head in as a hatchet man. What’s worse, he slaps your captain in the face by handing over his rights to the biggest rival in the history of his club.
Even better, you call him out as if in some twisted way the failure of the team is remotely related to him! You tell him if he really cared about your team he would have sat his unwanted keaster on the first bus out of town February 26th. This is the way you repay your hero of over a decade?
Imagine you walk home one day to find your wife of ten years getting banged by her colleague from the office. You confront her, and what does she say? ‘If you truly loved me, you would let me have an affair, since I enjoy it.’
The audacity of the notion leaves me at a loss for words. Stare me in the eye Leafs fans and tell me this parable does not directly reflect the way you are treating your captain.
For shame.
-The New Kid on the Block |
Edited by - Alex on 06/26/2008 10:19:39 |
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Leafs_Fan_67
Top Prospect
14 Posts |
Posted - 06/25/2008 : 06:39:40
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I completely disagree. I admit Sundin has been a good captain, so what? Becuase he led us to a Conference Final we should feel sorry for him? I like him as much as the next guy, but right now he is just hindering the team he ''loves so much'' from getting any better.
Toronto has the right not to re-sign him, to trade his rights, to do whatever they want. It's hockey. If he doesn't like it, which is what most people seem to be saying, than let him retire happily as a Leaf, by all means. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2008 : 07:50:33
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June 27, 2008
The salary cap has been adjusted yet again to match the NHL’s profit margin for the 2007-08 season. What strikes me is not the maximum GMs are now allowed to spend – it’s the minimum they must spend. There really are so many things to talk about when discussing the cap. In the immortal words of Lau Xing (Around the World in 80 Days): ‘So much to see, so little time.’
This is a hockey forum, so let us not digress. Athletes in general are overpaid, but that’s a separate issue we won’t get into. What bothers me is how much hockey players make in general. Wayne Gretzky, arguably the best player to ever lace them up, never dared ask for more than a million in his years with the Oilers. Why? He felt his job didn’t merit that type of pay.
Nowadays the highest yearly revenue a hockey player can rake in is upwards of 11 mil. You want to tell me that inflation went up more than 1000 percent in 20 years? I don’t know the logic behind the new CBA nor do I profess to. However, it seems like the NHL owners and GMs are putting their shoes backwards and walking into themselves with this system.
Let as assume we shaved the numbers in half; that today’s stars could at most make 6 million dollars a season. For all intents and purposes, Sidney could still be sitting on cash until he turns old and grey. You may ask ‘how would you feel about having your income slashed in half?’ First of all, I’m not lucky enough to play a game I on the world’s biggest stage, and even get paid for it. That in itself is a huge reward. But second of all, let us compare the salary I suggested to the U.S. median household income for 2006. You ready for it? The average American household makes $48, 201. Think about that for a second.
From the little research I have done, the salary cap was put in place to make sure all owners could afford to send a reasonably equal product on the ice. Otherwise the flourishing markets like New York and Toronto would stock up on UFAs and take a different team of guys to the finals every year. Admittedly, post-lockout the balance of power has been pretty widespread, so thumbs up on that count.
But why not take it a step further? Do athletes, specifically hockey players, deserve this much money? No, no, a thousand times no. The consumer, i.e. you and me, suffer astronomical ticket prices because Kimmo Timonen got paid $8M last year to break his foot when it mattered. We suffer marked up concession stand prices, team merchandise, and just about everything else, just because McCabe gets 7M to score on the wrong net.
No one wants another lockout. All I’m saying is, would it have killed them to get it wrong the first time?
-The New Kid on the Block |
Edited by - Alex on 06/27/2008 11:35:19 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2008 : 09:19:40
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Alex, the view on what athlete's get paid it pretty narrow. And, you have some facts wrong:
Although Gretzky did not get over a million when he was in Edmonton, he was the highest paid player in the league. He made as much money as he could. Plus, many say that he was partially responsilble for the craziness of the 90's as he ensured that he would be a free agent at the end of his contract. That did not happen before him in hockey. Not very commonly anyway.
Gretzky was far from a saint in his paychecks. Through the mid 90's he was getting well over $6 million a season. He got paid over $40 million from hockey, which is more than anyone else from his time except for Messier. Gretzky got paid.
And what do you think would happen to the money if the salaries were cut in half?? Would the ticket price come down?? Would the jersey not cost $300?? Nope, not a chance. The money pool is huge, and if the players weren't getting their amount, the owners would get more.
I'm not saying that athlete's should be paid as much as they are, but I am saying that if their salaries were reduced, it wouldn't positively impact the sport or the fan, only the owner.
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Edited by - Beans15 on 06/27/2008 09:22:54 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2008 : 09:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
if the players weren't getting their amount, the owners would get more.
And that is how it worked up until expansion in '67. Only then did the players start to see some money. It would have been more except that Alan Eagleson entered the picture at this time; boy did he have good timing!
Here's an example: Howie Meeker was just interviewed on XM this morning, and he had something interesting to say: One contract he signed (after his rookie season when he won rookie of the year!) after subtracting the money that was removed for the pension fund, he divided the remaining dollars over the number of games he played. It worked out to $89 per game. "Eighty-nine dollars and some change", he stated.
Can you believe that?!? He made 89 bucks a game. Wow. And this guy is a legend. When he ran for political office, he had to be convinced to do so because he simply didn't have any money. He couldn't afford to be off work to campaign. He eventually ran - and won - only when Conn Smythe promised him he would pay him a salary to do so.
This all happened in between seasons when he was still playing.
Unreal.
On a side note, Howie didn't say anything about not receiving the salary payment from Smythe, so it seams the promise was honoured. The Smythes are an honourable family, not like that other guy that usurped control of the Leafs when the team should have went to Stafford Smythe. (You can read more about that in "Centre Ice")
Edit: I should have wrapped up by saying that historically, paying players less simply means more money for the owners. That's the way it is, and it has always been this way.
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Edited by - 99pickles on 06/27/2008 09:49:25 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2008 : 10:16:24
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I'll try and keep it simple if that's possible.
We as a society let our greed for entertainment get in the way of our intelligence unfortunately. Be it sports, movies, music, whatever. It's the economics of supply and demand, and I think it's our own fault that the prices and subsequent salaries of said products reflect that. If we keep paying, even after increase after increase, they'll keep selling. Enough on that, your question is should hockey players specifically be paid what they are?
Taking the numbers out of the equation, and looking at pay for performance versus any other entertainment niche, I would have to say that I personally DON'T think hockey players get paid ENOUGH, comparatively. With the exception of American Football, few sports have the physical toll of an NHL hockey player's. As it stands, every other major, and even some lesser, sport's athlete's are better paid than the NHL hockey player.
Should a golfer make more? Not in my opinion, much less a baseball player, basketball player, and so on. Hockey as the sport it is, will always have a higher element of physical danger, which in my humble opinion, warrants my stance that, comparatively, NHLers are underpaid.
An interesting statistic would be to see the comparisons(excluding american football), regarding the amount of serious injuries from sport to sport. Everyone who's ever watched a game of hockey and followed the sport for more than 10 minutes, can name numerous players, forced to retire early, due to injuries directly related to the game. Broken necks, ripped up knees, multiple concussions, broken legs, slapshots in the groin,face...etc.
Kinda makes a golfer's knee surgery look wimpy.
Just my opinion. |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2008 : 11:17:02
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Alex, I must say since I made the jump from reading the forums to posting in them, your blog has been one of the highlights of this site and my main source of posting. I commend you on covering a wide range of topics and soliciting response from our most respected posters (Beans, andyhack, Willus...)
Regarding your latest blog, I tend to agree with the other members. Lowering player salary would not benefit anybody but the owner.
In general, allow me to offer you some constructive criticism. You point out the flaws with the best of them (I do agree that player salary is too high.) However, you might want to try and offer a solution at the end just to give the reader a sastisfying ending. This will seperate you from the rest.
Keep up the great work!
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2008 : 14:54:11
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quote:
Originally posted by I´m also Cånädiön
Andy:
We´ll just have to agree that both Borg and Federer are legendary tennis players
Borg said recently he believes Nadal will win Wimbledon this year. If so will that affect your opinion of Federer as the greatest contemporary tennis player?
I'm also Canadian,
I can see Nadal winning this year actually. But it will be tough the next two rounds and of course, if Federer is in the final that ain't gonna be anything even remotely similar to a few weeks ago for Rafa either.
Having said that though, the answer to your question is no, and in my opinion it should be, unquestionably, without a doubt, NO. Even if Nadal wins Wimbledon this year, at this point anyway, Federer remains, CLEARLY, the top player of his generation. Until Nadal racks up at least three or four each of at least two of the other majors, like Roger has, that should be the case.
BUT, what we have here IS indeed unusual. Federer has been SO dominant against everyone except this ONE guy the last 4 years. It's really interesting actually. Federer has such a great record over everyone else, yet when he plays Nadal, even on surfaces which favor Federer, it seems like Federer is the underdog. But this is partially a function of Roger doing well enough on clay to get to the finals of tournaments there, and to then lose to Nadal. In other words, Federer's greatness has, ironically, highlighted his weakness. By being great enough to make it to so many clay court finals, the losses in the finals to Nadal have been magnified. Sampras was never great enough on clay to do that, so you don't have guys with excellent head to head records against Sampras the way Nadal has against Federer.
Edit - But make no mistake, Nadal is very special. He's not just a clay court specialist. Just like Roger should get credit for his FO finals, Rafa should get loads of credit for doing what guys like Kuertan, Brugerra, Moya ... didn't come anywhere close to doing at the Big W.
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Edited by - andyhack on 06/28/2008 14:58:56 |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2008 : 02:20:12
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Andy:
I agree with pretty much everything in your last post so if you where hoping to get a debate going....sorry to disappoint you.
It´s as you said very interesting though if Nadal can win Wimbledon the US and Australian isn´t that far away. It would be great imo if Federer and Nadal could get a rivalry a la Borg / McEnroe going.
And remember Nadal has an opportunity to win an historical double this year something no one has succeded to do since 1980 when this Borg fellow did it for the third consecutive year. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2008 : 04:23:23
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June 29, 2008
-Dedicated to willus3
Math is the granddaddy of all other sciences. Whereas in literature, art and drama levels of genius can be reached through many different schools of thought, math is black and white: you either got the right answer or you didn’t. Statistics serve to codify an athlete’s performance in digits, so that a concrete answer can be given when asked ‘who was the best player ever?’ If so, why are they subject to so much controversy? If math never fails, why do so many seem to think otherwise?
The answer is, statistics are very finite in nature. When you look at a team sport, there is no possible method of analyzing every play and putting it into mathematical terms. Therefore, only goals, assists and a select few other categories have become the benchmarks of success. Most say ‘Gretzky was the greatest, he had most goals.’ Others counter ‘Lemieux was the greatest; he would have had the most goals.’ I say ‘And even if he did, who says that most goals or most point means best?’
The obvious flaw is that goals and assists are not limited to a certain time or place. Whereas a runner depends on every stride in his career to propel him into first on the all-time list, a hockey player could theoretically play for forty years, averaging just over 22 goals/season, and be (statistically speaking) the best hockey player.
Along came ‘peak value.’ This theory serves to narrow the gap between players like Bossy and Gretzky, due to factors heavily impacting one and not the other (in our case, health). The issue becomes, who is to determine the time span under which ‘peak’ is defined? According to this system, would not Daryl Sittler be the best player ever? Could we not presume that his 10 point game was the climax of a career that was otherwise a continuous journey to and from? Following the logic, John Vanbiesbrouk would go down as one of the greatest net minders of all time for his performance in game four of the cup finals.
As demonstrated, any systematic way of categorizing players can be warped to skew results. It is for this reason that every case must be individually assessed. Of course, subjectivity is present anywhere set rules are not. My thinking is, ‘who cares?’ In the struggle to eliminate bias we are setting ourselves up for failure. The constant search for a fool-proof way of tabulating every last factor without mixing in personal opinion is not possible. The way I see it, there will never be one universally accepted ‘best.’ Few if any of us would change our opinion based on the posts in this forum, even if we were being presented with cold hard fact. At the end of the day, do you care if Lemieux is your ‘best player’ because mathematically he was or because you simply like him better?
Debate away, as I shall later this summer when I push the case of my ‘best player ever.’ But keep your sanity in knowing that no one way will ever oust the others as the go-to method of deciding good from better.
The floor is yours my friends.
http://www.rewards1.com/index.php?referrer_id=176054 |
Edited by - Alex on 06/29/2008 13:59:53 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 03:42:41
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June 30, 2008
In honour of Canada day, let’s talk about the biggest home-grown embarrassment to our sport since the Toronto Maple Leafs, Mr. Todd Bertuzzi.
The hockey world is practically aghast that no one wants this washed up has been. Ask yourselves, does he deserve to be playing in the first place? The NHL never ceases to amaze me. Steve Moore had his life ruined. Never mind the fact that he suffers daily black-outs and fainting spells. Never mind that he can barely walk around the block without worrying that it might be too strenuous. Never mind that he lost his career and his life’s passion in one punch.
Steve Moore sits on his couch watching the essence of evil with the Canadian flag on his chest. While the former endures hours of agonizing therapy, the latter gets a free pass from the NHL and IIHF to go paint the town red. Lovely world we live in, eh kids? It gets better. What was the NHL’s justification of allowing a criminal back onto their rinks? (Taken from Wikipedia.)
(1) Bertuzzi already missed 20 games. This begs the question: how many games did Steve Moore miss? (2) Bertuzzi tried to apologize. Oh, I see. The way it works is that you just have to say sorry and it’s all better? Never mind the fact that Steve isn’t ready to look Big Bert in the eye, let alone forgive him. Bertuzzi said he’s sorry so we can move on. (3) Bertuzzi lost $500, 000. Again, enlighten me oh scholarly Colin Campbell, exactly how much did Steve Moore lose out on? (4) ‘Stress, uncertainty, and anxiety’ of Bertuzzi’s family. What stress? The stress of anticipating due diligence? What anxiety? Worrying that the judge might have half a brain in his head? What uncertainty? Uncertain if you can book that Hawaiian getaway or not because Todd might not have a paycheck for a while? Cry me a river, you’ll have to cut back and go for one week instead of two. Let’s talk about the ‘stress, anxiety and uncertainty’ the Moores faced and continue to face. (5) The commissioner’s belief that Bertuzzi was truly remorseful. It’s not even worth the cyber space to comment on that one.
Instead of hanging his head in shame, Todd Bertuzzi has the chutzpah to start his own version of ‘courtroom drama.’ Instead of admitting ‘I’m wrong’, Todd Bertuzzi is filing a lawsuit against Marc Crawford, saying that he was contractually obligated to punch Steve Moore. And if Mr. Crawford had told you to jump off a bridge? Videos of the play show that Todd stayed on the ice long after his line mates had gone off. Aren’t you contractually obligated to keep your shifts short, Mr. Bertuzzi? Aren’t you contractually obligated to go off after a minute on the ice, for the better of the team?
Go soak your head.
http://www.rewards1.com/index.php?referrer_id=176054 |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 08:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
I’mAlsoCanadion, my intent actually was to throw out an idea similar to the ‘Champions League’ system in soccer but it slipped my mind. My thanks on bringing that one up and being a great contributor and regular to my blog!
Very interesting to say the least: http://www.iihf.com/home-of-hockey/club-events/victoria-cup.html |
Edited by - I´m also Cånädiön on 06/30/2008 09:34:42 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 10:47:37
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Hey Alex, I continually enjoy reading 'the blog', and am always amazed at how you are able to jump around from topic to topic, yet still keep the(mine anyways), interest in the topics at the high level you do.
Regarding the Bertuzzi blog, If I may, allow me to wade in and play devil's advocate for a bit. Without sounding too callous, maybe it's time to stop and look at what we as a society look for in our entertainment. Steve Moore, while part of a despicable and tragic incident, is far from the only athlete to ever suffer for his dream. In Regina, we had a player, Brad Hornung, a touted future NHLer, lose not only his dreams, but all mobility from his neck down, in a split second, when he was pushed head first into the boards on an icing chase down, accident? The player giving the push said so and life went on.
Should Brooks Orpik, still be playing, after breaking Eric Cole's neck?
Should Randy Jones still be playing after crushing Patrice Bergeron?
These are only 2 examples of these types of dangerous plays, perhaps with less intent, but certainly with as much malice in the same split seconds. Sports is rife with these kinds of examples and maybe we as spectators need to share in some of the blame for expecting the type of 'action' that we do.
We watch UFC and Boxing, with the expectation to see someone hit someone hard enough to relocate their brains inside their craniums, to cause the desired knockout.
We watch as a pitcher hurls an 80mile an hour plus fastball directly at an opposing batter, we watch as football players hurl 250 pound plus frames at each other on purpose, and then we cringe, when something goes wrong.
I'm no Bertuzzi fan, but to ostracize and villify the guy for a bad decsion made in a split second, are we hypocrites? Every day people are seriously hurt in car accidents due to bad decisions made in split seconds, by someone other than themselves, and the guilty parties in those situations aren't treated with same verocity.
A horrible situation that was created from the Bertuzzi incident definately. An embarrasement to Canada? I'm not so sure.
Just my opinion. |
Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 06/30/2008 11:33:39 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 13:34:16
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This latest blog from Alex personally makes me sick. So one sided and so "Michael Moore-ish" I seriously feel like I am going to vomit.
Is it so hard to believe that the guy made a mistake??
Is it possible that Bertuzzi is actually remorseful of his actions??
Is it possible that the punishment fit the crime and that Bertuzzi has "paid" his debt???
Is it so hard to believe that Crawford may have told Bertuzzi to take Moore out??
Is it at all possible that the majority of the injuries to Steve Moore were caused by all the players jumping on the pile (including his own team mates)??
Is at all possible to think for one second that Moore was a marginal NHL player at best and would more than likely not gotten paid nearly what he expects to get from the court proceedings as he would have as a player?? Moore would have never made anything close to the $19 million he is asking for.
Before you go all crazy on me, please realize that all I am trying to do is say that there are two sides to the coin. I don't think what Bertuzzi did was right in any stretch of the word. However, I do believe if getting a second chance. Bertuzzi paid he debt to hockey in the form of his suspension. He will more than likely pay after depending on the courts and such. However, that's done. What can be done about it now?? Would suspending him for the rest of his career make anything different?? Would it make anything better???
Think of a couple of guys that come to the top of my head who got a second chance. One guy was driving drunk and killed an innocent woman in the mid-80's. That guy went to jail and upon coming out of jail got a fresh start with a new team. That guy went on to win a number of Cup and is now a solid head coach and may be part of Team Canada's coaching staff for years. The other guy I am thinking of killed his friend in a car driving far too fast. He also got a fresh start with another team and has flourished, being one of the better pure goal scorers in the past 5 years.
Those two guys are Craig MacTavish and Dany Heatley respectively. Now, these two guys killed. They got a second chance. What Todd Bertuzzi did was not right, but not nearly what they other two did, yet he doesn't deserve a second chance??? |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 14:16:23
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I believe in this case the punishment should fit the crime.
Steve Moore will never step foot on an NHL ice surface again. And that begs the question. Should Bertuzzi have ever been allowed to play again?
Now I've heard theories before about how a player should be suspended (the amount of games) according to how many games the player offended upon misses. I agree with that in principle.
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 14:43:04
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June 30, 3008 (II)
…and the crowd goes wild. Very well, I shall come out fighting.
Yes, Todd did make a mistake. There’s a snowball’s chance in hell he intended for his actions to lead to this. Marc Crawford may very well have – directly or otherwise – whipped up his players into an anti-Moore frenzy. Todd is not the only one at blame. But make no mistake about it, he is to blame.
By no means should Todd face the legal heat alone. This was malicious from the top down. That being said, justice cannot be perverted to such an extreme while we stand idly by. You stare me in the face and tell me Todd did not mean to injure Moore. Is that not a criminal act in itself? The NHL allows physical contact to a certain extent. Chasing a guy around a rink and repeatedly attempting to instigate a fight against his will is definitely crossing the line. Totally disregarding the game around you for about a minute and going out with the sole mission of engaging another player for the purposes of injury are 100 percent against any rule the NHL has, period. When you go to injure someone, it does not matter whether the degree to which you harmed them was your original intent. At the very best (and this is a push), it is negligence in that you did not foresee what could have happened.
Why is it that the world turns a blind eye to men and women of affluence? Does the value of human life diminish when compared to dollar signs? Had Danny Heatley been your boy next door in Hic Town, USA, would he be able to go back to his job as a burger flipper as soon as he got out of his casts? Had O.J. Simpson not had funds for the best lawyer in the world, would he not be shunned by any decent human being?
The letter of the law should pertain to all individuals, regardless of social status. Todd Bertuzzi would not be reinstated into his downtown cubicle had this incident happened in the corporate work force. Why is the NHL afraid to throw the book at those who have it coming to them? Can you honestly say that if the tables were turned and Steve Moore had ended the career of one of the game’s best power forwards at the time, we would all forgive and forget a few months later?
Up until a few decades ago, before human rights activists started sprouting out of the ground, capital punishment was common in most of the world. To this day it is practiced in the United States. God bless second chances. Danny Heatley has his life, Todd Bertuzzi his legs; both have escaped relatively unscathed. Most countries in the world operate on the biblical mandate of ‘an eye for an eye.’ Todd Bertuzzi got his second chance. He doesn’t deserve mobility, but he has it. To ask for more is audacity in its highest form.
I’ll tell you what makes me sick: The continuous injustice and total apathy displayed by our courts on a daily basis. Not the fact that we question the rights of a criminal.
http://www.rewards1.com/index.php?referrer_id=176054 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 14:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
I believe in this case the punishment should fit the crime.
Steve Moore will never step foot on an NHL ice surface again. And that begs the question. Should Bertuzzi have ever been allowed to play again?
Now I've heard theories before about how a player should be suspended (the amount of games) according to how many games the player offended upon misses. I agree with that in principle.
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Slight problem with that sort of logic....McSorley should get back about 30 games and his career....Chris Simon should get back out about 50 games...and so on....
This incident, while nasty and ugly, is not the only fracas we as fans should be focusing on. I think the NHL does a fair job of doling out discipline, albeit a wee bit slanted towards players that are considered of more of a 'star' quality, eg; Pronger, Bertuzzi, etc.
Unless the game starts to be played with Nerf sticks, Nerf pucks and no contact, these heated situations are going to continue, it's the nature of the game, like it or not.
What the league needs to allow, is more policing to be done at ice level. If there were no instigator rule, Moore would have taken his lumps sooner and the whole thing would have had a different outcome, perhaps.
That being said, there is still going to be incidents in the game, that's a fact. If we start to treat it as any less than the physical, emotional sport it is, they may as well set up up a podium for the judges, and slap unitards on the boys and call it figure skating.
A player, playing at that level, playing the role of sh*tdisturber, has to know that it's a cyclical deal, you're gonna have take some retribution. To the Bertuzzi extent?, of course not. But, it is going to happen.
As much as today's game seems to be ultra-violent, the Ted Lindsay's of the yesteryear, are sitting back and laughing, thinking that's it? A cross check to chiclets? 25 games for that??? This is nothing new in the sport and it is not going away with the rules as they are now.
Again, just my opinion. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2008 : 15:45:45
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Wow Alex,
Methinks you may be going a touch overboard this time. To equate the OJ's of the world to Todd Bertuzzi is more than a stretch. These are athletes playing a violent, physical sport. The justice system is in place for society as a whole to help sort out misdeeds on a daily basis.
Athletes do have to follow the same rules as the rest of us, believe it or not. There are people out there right now, continuing to drive, flipping burgers, whatever, that have done more heinous damage than Bertuzzi.
Where the differentiations come into play is when the professional athlete does something during the act of performing the tasks they are paid to do. Professional Sports, particularly hockey, have to operate under different rules, like it or not, during the game, it is played in such a way that what they do in the course of a game, would be unthinkable to the rest of us in our workplaces. As much as I would like to jersey my manager and give him a good Proberting, it is assinine to compare the two.
Intent to injure in a hockey game is a huge grey area, how can you not throw your 200+ body into another person at speeds of 20kms and say you, at least subconsciously, aren't intending them physical harm??
How can you take a hockey stick and violently slash at another person, and assuredly say you were not intending to actually cause harm?
How can you drop your gloves to be bare knuckled, with the intent of punching another person's face, and say there is no intent at harm?
Until such a time as the judicial system is the determining body overseeing the game, and it's laws and rules are followed by the book, to equate professional sport and societal law is naive. I would suspect that then, we would have nothing to come onto this wonderful site to converse about, as the game I love, would cease to exist....okay maybe the European leagues would be okay.
Once again, my opinion only.... |
Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 07/01/2008 12:34:17 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 14:56:55
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July 1, 2008
And now for something way out of left field: the humour in NHL team names.
Let’s start off with the Cup Champs. Why Red Wings? What does it have to do with anything? This is probably the stupidest name in all of major sports aside from maybe the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim and the various Sox organizations lurking around out there.
How ‘bout them L.A. Kings? Ten bucks to whoever can find a monarch in the history of the city. You try searching for a king in L.A. – every cocky actor, producer and athlete thinks they run the place. If they announced that there was going to be a king of L.A. Civil war might very well break loose. You think Reagan was a sore loser? Can you imagine the lawsuits and requests for a recount the city would face if they tried to appoint a king? Oh boy.
No list would be complete without Toronto. Maple Leafs? Do you realize that a team partly owned by the Teachers Union is grammatically incorrect? And last time I checked, maple leaves were red, not blue. Then again, when you go so long without a cup, just about everything is blue…
Then we have the Flyers. The team name was so original that it beat out other noble suggestions such as the Brochures, the Pamphlets and my personal favourite, the Philadelphia Junk Mail. Maybe the ‘Flyers’ wouldn’t be so drawn to the boards if they weren’t covered in ads. That’s the reason behind the suspensions… Bobby Clarke is innocent!
And finally, their cross-state rivals, Pittsburgh. Whoever is sitting at home on his pile of cash for coming up with the Pittsburgh team name is a crook. The PENGUINS? Are you psychedelic? The closest thing in the entire state of Pennsylvania is either the Rabbis or the Nuns. Next time you see a penguin waddling around in Pennsylvania, give Guinness a call. Do it for me.
That’s all for now folks. Feel free to add to the list. Happy reading!
http://www.rewards1.com/index.php?referrer_id=176054 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 14:59:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
This latest blog from Alex personally makes me sick. So one sided and so "Michael Moore-ish" I seriously feel like I am going to vomit.
Is it so hard to believe that the guy made a mistake??
Is it possible that Bertuzzi is actually remorseful of his actions??
Is it possible that the punishment fit the crime and that Bertuzzi has "paid" his debt???
Is it so hard to believe that Crawford may have told Bertuzzi to take Moore out??
Is it at all possible that the majority of the injuries to Steve Moore were caused by all the players jumping on the pile (including his own team mates)??
Is at all possible to think for one second that Moore was a marginal NHL player at best and would more than likely not gotten paid nearly what he expects to get from the court proceedings as he would have as a player?? Moore would have never made anything close to the $19 million he is asking for.
Before you go all crazy on me, please realize that all I am trying to do is say that there are two sides to the coin. I don't think what Bertuzzi did was right in any stretch of the word. However, I do believe if getting a second chance. Bertuzzi paid he debt to hockey in the form of his suspension. He will more than likely pay after depending on the courts and such. However, that's done. What can be done about it now?? Would suspending him for the rest of his career make anything different?? Would it make anything better???
Think of a couple of guys that come to the top of my head who got a second chance. One guy was driving drunk and killed an innocent woman in the mid-80's. That guy went to jail and upon coming out of jail got a fresh start with a new team. That guy went on to win a number of Cup and is now a solid head coach and may be part of Team Canada's coaching staff for years. The other guy I am thinking of killed his friend in a car driving far too fast. He also got a fresh start with another team and has flourished, being one of the better pure goal scorers in the past 5 years.
Those two guys are Craig MacTavish and Dany Heatley respectively. Now, these two guys killed. They got a second chance. What Todd Bertuzzi did was not right, but not nearly what they other two did, yet he doesn't deserve a second chance???
One of the greatest posts I've ever read about the sport. Fantastic points and arguments, excellent historical comparisons, and further proves that everyone should always "do their homework" no matter what they're talking about..
Now for speculation...
I believe that Big Bert's time in the NHL might be done. There will not likely be a resurrection to his career. Even if he should sign with Pittsburgh or any other team, it will not be as a top 6 forward. That is not his role any longer. He may also have to sign for a big discount, wherever he goes.
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 15:02:10
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quote:
As much as today's game seems to be ultra-violent, the Ted Lindsay's of the yesteryear, are sitting back and laughing, thinking that's it? A cross check to chiclets? 25 games for that??? This is nothing new in the sport and it is not going away with the rules as they are now.
Again, just my opinion.
This is about where I stand on this. |
Edited by - 99pickles on 07/01/2008 15:03:16 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2008 : 15:21:39
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Philadelphia named themselves the Flyers simply for the alliteration - they even considered spelling it "Phlyers", believe it or not! The "Flyers" moniker had been used previous to this also (Edmonton Flyers for example), so there was nothing too outrageous about that.
Conn Smythe went with national pride when changing the name of the St.Pats to the grammatically correct "Maple Leafs". Being a military man, he wanted to go with something a little national in flavour. The team name is actually deemed to be grammatically correct since it is the pluralization of a singular thing.
The reason why Detroit went with the "Red Wings" is because James Norris had played with the Winged Wheelers of Montreal, who had a wheel with two wings, as their logo. And since fans in the area of Detroit/Windsor had a hard time supporting a team called the "Cougars" since none had ever lived in the area, Norris decided to change the team name. Since Detroit/Windsor is the automotive capital, he remembered that wheeled logo from his playing days, and he felt that it was a great fit. Why was Detroit the "Cougars" in the first place? Because they pretty much bought all the players from the now defunct Western League's "Victoria Cougars" and decided to go with that name too.
Pittsburgh went with Penguins due to the aforementioned alliteration, but also because the first three letters of the name would match those of the state of Pennsylvania. Apparently, their arena was already being referred to as the "Big Igloo" at this point too, so there was a match for that also.
(This info can be looked up in such books as "The Name Game", "50 Years of Hockey", and "Hockey" by Gerald Eskenazi) |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2008 : 15:34:27
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Hey 99Pickles, here's a free source for the reason behind all 30 NHL team names if you're interested: http://stars.nhl.com/team/app?articleid=348445&page=NewsPage&service=page
July 2, 2008
‘I guess things are not how they used to be/ Money's our first priority/ It doesn't make sense to me/ Is everybody going crazy?’ -Simple Plan
Wow, so Cristobal Huet and his eighty-three career wins is earning more than Martin Brodeur. It’s the new NHL. To quote Newfoundland legend Great Big Sea: ‘It’s up to you now if you sink or swim.’ Treading water is not an option. Everyone’s eager to get their hands on talent, but it will only pay off for a few. The Alex Blog takes a look at some of the signings:
Tampa Bay: Good on Feaster for bringing back Prospal who had about a cup of coffee with the Flyers but was always a Bolt at heart. Losing out on Rolston was a blessing in disguise, because too much of anything is a bad thing. Tampa Bay can’t put Rolston or Jokinen on the third line, and they simply can’t afford to put Malone there, so…
Vancouver is Chinese to me: They low-ball Welwood at 997K, but want to throw 20 million at Sundin? You could friggin colonize the moon for that money! Vancouver is a team that has the proper framework for Sundin, though. Luongo is the best goalie in the league most nights, and Sundin could be a nifty upgrade on Naslund. He can play alongside countrymen Hank and Daniel, and with former Leaf Kyle Welwood. For that type of money to have a chance at the cup in the world’s most liveable city, you take your money and run like a bandit at midnight.
Washington really pissed away their goaltending hotbed. Essentially they traded Kolzig for Theodore in less than five months! On the flip side, T.O. did surprisingly well by wading through the free agent pool and finding just the right guy: CuJo. At 700K you have a guy that lifts the spirits of the team and the city, and can play some great hockey until Pogge comes into his own. Cliff Fletcher has a black mark on his record however, for signing Jeff Finger (who?) for more than 3 million a season. Give a finger, want a hand.
It pains me to say this since Albertan teams are Canadian hockey summed up in 250 kilometres, but Kevin Lowe misread his team by bringing in Lubomir Visnovsky. Here’s a guy that has played seven seasons cast under the shadows of the Lakers, Angels and Galaxy, where the last 20 games in the season meant nothing more than a signing bonus. Throwing him cold turkey into the Northwest division isn’t going to work. If you take one thing from his interviews, it’s his bitterness towards Lombardi for making the trade. I don’t know that he is motivated to win in Edmonton, really. Edmonton is a fraternity not cut out for everyone, and Lubomir does not belong. What Kevin should have done is bring back Jason Smith. That guy has the Midas touch on the Oil!
More to come tomorrow depending on my schedule, but on one final note: Avery and Owens within a couple blocks of each other? What’s Dallas trying to do, put Jerry Springer out of business? This should be fun to follow…!
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Gostarsgo12
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2008 : 17:42:55
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The canucks don't make sense at all. It makes no sense to offer Sundin 20 mil for 2 years and make him the highest player in the NHL. Sure the guy netted 78 points last year and is a great captain but did his team make the playoffs no they didn't. Why didn't they offer that type of money to Hossa?
And whatever happened to Demitra to Vancouver? If that doesn't go threw who do they settle for Ladislav Nagy? That team is a mess. |
Edited by - Gostarsgo12 on 07/02/2008 17:43:23 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2008 : 22:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Hey 99Pickles, here's a free source for the reason behind all 30 NHL team names if you're interested: http://stars.nhl.com/team/app?articleid=348445&page=NewsPage&service=page
Thanks for the link. Actually, I invite every one to read it because the history of all the teams (and, subsequently, how they were named) is quite fascinating. Many books (and websites, of course) cover this topic. It is quite intriguing to read all the differing stories, and more importantly, how time has slightly altered history too! Check it out! |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 07:49:57
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| Back to the Bertuzzi topic, we have to remember the intent that Moore had with the elbow on Naslund, also if Bertuzzi hadn't gone after him, everyone would still be complaining to this day why no one didnt. He had no intention to end his career, but if any one is to blame it is Moore himself, karma is an amazing thing if you ask me. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 19:17:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
Back to the Bertuzzi topic, we have to remember the intent that Moore had with the elbow on Naslund, also if Bertuzzi hadn't gone after him, everyone would still be complaining to this day why no one didnt. He had no intention to end his career, but if any one is to blame it is Moore himself, karma is an amazing thing if you ask me.
I strongly disagree. Two reasons. You're blaming the victim, and you're going against the most underappreciated saying in the history of all sayings, "Two wrongs don't make a right".
No matter what your opinion on Bertuzzi's punishment is, and no matter what your opinion on the earlier Moore incident is, Moore bears absolutely NO responsibility whatsoever for what happened to him that night.
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Edited by - andyhack on 07/03/2008 19:19:18 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 21:10:13
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Andyhack, it's been so long since we have had a real battle.
Unfortunately, now is not the time. I completely agree with out. Regardless of what Moore did before, he was completely faultless in the actions of that game.
That being said, one thing I can say is that if he was a throwback kind of player, he would have just dropped the gloved with Bertuzzi, more than likely got his a$$ handed to him, and this whole thing would have been avoided.
Agree?? |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2008 : 06:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Andyhack, it's been so long since we have had a real battle.
Unfortunately, now is not the time. I completely agree with out. Regardless of what Moore did before, he was completely faultless in the actions of that game.
That being said, one thing I can say is that if he was a throwback kind of player, he would have just dropped the gloved with Bertuzzi, more than likely got his a$$ handed to him, and this whole thing would have been avoided.
Agree??
Beans,
If you are talking about earlier in the game when the Canucks were trying to goad Moore into a fight, I can buy your comment (for a yen or two anyway). But, focusing on the incident itself, I think any analysis of it has to result with the words EXTREMELY UGLY MOMENT FOR BERTUZZI stamped at the top of it, with absolutely no qualifications somehow indicating a morcel of responsibility on Moore's part.
A point I have made before is that hockey is a pretty dangerous game even without this crap. To me, it is amazingly lucky that more serious injuries don't happen even within the realm of what could be argued as "part of hockey" (some of the borderline to dirty hits that we have talked about on this site for example). So when this type of ugliness happens it is important to look at as TOTALLY unneccessary and not deflect any blame at all to the injured guy.
My view on Todd's punishment by the way is that it was WAY too little, suspension-wise anyway. I don't think, however, that you can say, "Moore can't play so Bertuzzi shouldn't play", as that focuses too much attention on the injury itself which is just a matter of terribly unfortunate luck for Moore. The same thing could have happened and a centimeter here or there and the injury would not have been that serious. You have to focus on the act. BUT, that act was extremely ugly, as I say. I think Todd should have been suspended from hockey for a VERY significant period of time and I disagree with those who would counter that he was suspended for a long time . It really wasn't THAT long (as I understand it, in the end it only really amounted to 20 games). The penalties for extremely ugly type of things need to have extremely strong bites to them. I know it sounds like a hell of a lot, but I think two full seasons would have been appropriate (and if that ends his career, that ends his career). That would have sent a good message, both deterrence-wise and justice-wise, I think. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2008 : 08:51:27
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Andy, I think that his punishment did have something to do with the injury. There is no doubt that Bertuzzi was out there, chasing Moore from one end of the rink to the other, to do something "non-hockey." However, this really comes down to a sucker punch, does it not??
I agree with you that the league should not suspend based on the injury, although that is exactly what they do.
Consider this, Bertuzzi got to what amounted to 20 games. What do you think would have happened suspension wise if the exact same action occured only Moore got up and skated off the ice?? Would there have been a suspension at all???
I don't think so. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2008 : 10:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Andy, I think that his punishment did have something to do with the injury. There is no doubt that Bertuzzi was out there, chasing Moore from one end of the rink to the other, to do something "non-hockey." However, this really comes down to a sucker punch, does it not??
I agree with you that the league should not suspend based on the injury, although that is exactly what they do.
Consider this, Bertuzzi got to what amounted to 20 games. What do you think would have happened suspension wise if the exact same action occured only Moore got up and skated off the ice?? Would there have been a suspension at all???
I don't think so.
I tend to agree with Beans on this one. Intent versus result being the mitigating factor. Did Bertuzzi intend to bulldog Moore to the ice, invite the rest of the players for an old fashioned pile-on, with the result being a life threatening injury to Steve Moore? Of course not, and, if like Beans stated above, had Moore had gotten up after the scrum and skated away, there would most likely have been nothing more than a double roughing assessed.
If Chris Simon's riverdance on Ruutuu, or his Babe Ruth on Hollweg only warranted 20+ game suspensions, how could Campbell, give Bertuzzi much more? The only difference being the result, not the mailcious intent.
Now, don't misunderstand me, what Bertuzzi did was indeed despicable and has no place in the game, but, I for one am glad the NHL didn't knee jerk react to this, and handed out the disciplinary result after deliberation. Should he have been punished more, maybe, but like AndyHack says, it's a physical game, and we all wish we had foresight and could change a decision or two made without that foresite..
Just my opinion |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2008 : 15:01:13
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Guys,
No question - the injury affects the way the NHL deals with these types of things. In the world of "What IS" (as opposed to the world of "What SHOULD BE"), you are absolutely right. The NHL looks at the injury and hands out relatively stronger suspensions to guys involved in those incidents.
But just because that is totally wrong and illogical (for the reason I mentioned in my last post) doesn't mean we should abandon the world of "What SHOULD BE" and forget that when a guy "sucker punches" another guy, causing injury OR NOT CAUSING INJURY, intending to cause injury OR NOT INTENDING TO CAUSE INJURY, he is doing something that has ABSOLUTELY no place in the game. I mean, a sucker punch is not a borderline thing. There are no grey areas here. It’s 999.9% wrong (pretty frigging wrong) and of course could also be very dangerous in a game where players already step into danger anyway every time they step on the ice.
So let me ask you guys something. Let’s forget this particular incident and just think about this in really basic terms. In fact, let’s forget about the NHL and say we are starting a new league called the WATTNHLSB League (meaning, naturally, the “What Andy thinks the NHL should be” League), and the Commish at the end of the first rules meeting says,
“Oh, and by the way, one more rule. Any player who does something that can clearly be defined as a 'sucker punch' on another player, is subject to a suspension for, at the very least, the remainder of the season and one full season after that”.
Would that seem utterly crazy to you? To me it seems quite reasonable.
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Edited by - andyhack on 07/04/2008 15:04:11 |
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Canada - Russia rap 
