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Open_Ice
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
 Posted - 07/31/2008 : 13:25:07
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I probably don't know enough about baseball, but dont these mini-series' include visits to both team's arena? There would still be a lot of travel then.
On the otherhand if we're talking playing all games of a mini-series in one city then thats not exactly a series anymore... (one team always has home ice advantage)
The 'bullpen' idea is funny although its not too often that a goalie switch is planned...it is often immediately after a goal and not planned for. I would be surprised if goalies warmed up in the dressing room before a planned switch. (at intermission or whatever)
With all that said its possible that the NHL needs some innovation and I wouldn't be too surprised with something new soon. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 16:49:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Open_Ice
I probably don't know enough about baseball, but dont these mini-series' include visits to both team's arena? There would still be a lot of travel then.
On the otherhand if we're talking playing all games of a mini-series in one city then thats not exactly a series anymore... (one team always has home ice advantage)
The 'bullpen' idea is funny although its not too often that a goalie switch is planned...it is often immediately after a goal and not planned for. I would be surprised if goalies warmed up in the dressing room before a planned switch. (at intermission or whatever)
With all that said its possible that the NHL needs some innovation and I wouldn't be too surprised with something new soon.
i'll start by saying i'm a huge ball fan i love my baseball ,, how it would work would be brilliant for the players im surprised the nhlpa hasn;t pushed for this.... for example toronto vs. montreal... have a three game sereis in montreal so game 1 monday night game two tuesday game 3 thursday ,, that means the toronto leafs are comfortably in montreal for 3 nights instead of packing up the next morning and heading to say,.... buffalo or boston,,, then later on in the season montreal plays thre games in toronto,, same set up then there is a double header left to split somewhere down the line,,,, its brilliant,,, there must be a catch though that i,m not thinking of....
Pasty |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2008 : 19:08:59
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July 31, 2008
The opinions are a dime a dozen where the NHL is concerned. Many have ‘good ideas’ – only a handful have sensible ones. There’s no question that behind every rule is a thick textbook of good intentions. (Yes, believe it or not the notorious instigator and puck-over-the-glass rules weren’t just invented so that we’d throw stuff at the T.V.)
The issue becomes, a lot of rules are catch twenty-twos. When you add no-touch icing, you promote the trap; when you don’t, you run the risk of injuries. In the damned if you do, damned if you don’t world of hockey, only a couple ideas transcend the boundaries of compromise. Today The Alex Blog will focus on the ways to limit ‘the trap.’
Many people have given their two cents on this very worthy enterprise. Well, you know what I do with two cents? I donate it. While great in theory, no one really has a foolproof solution to this dilemma. People suggested widening the ice-surface. They forgot about how greatly that would reduce body checks, and how it would increase fatigue. Others said to widen the neutral zone; they forgot that once you beat the trap, you need an adequate offensive zone to work in. Now people are saying that backwards skating in the neutral zone should be forbidden. As if the referees need another headache. Can you imagine the outcry if a game was decided on a penalty because a player mooned his goalie at the wrong time? Oy. To its credit, the NHL did come up with one rule that bore no monumental downside – restricting goaltenders’ abilities to play the puck. But may I humbly ask where the monumental upside to this rule is? All it means is that a defenseman parks himself a few strides farther up the ice when he aligns in the trap formation.
So, after a lot of deliberation, I have come up with my own original idea: a second blue line. The way it would work is that a first blue line (the one closest to the attacking net) would be used to determine off-sides going in to the offensive zone, and the second to determine off-sides coming out. This way the neutral zone is widened to thwart the trap, but on the other hand, once you ‘gain the blue line’ you all of a sudden have a lot more room to work in (because the far blue line is used to determine off-sides going out). See my diagram below (I only spent about five minutes making it on Paint, so it's not to scale or anything.)
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f263/alexfrompickuphockey/Secondblueline.jpg[/IMG]
Why it's different: All other suggestions work within a framework set up to fail in one way or another. This idea effectively ‘creates’ a new zone. Without actually adding any ice surface per se, the neutral zone and offensive zone are widened at the same time! Let me know your thoughts!
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting |
Edited by - Alex on 08/01/2008 04:09:46 |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 03:54:11
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This idea would do a couple things that are great for the flow of the game:
1) Turn even a 1-on-3 into a dangerous play.
2) Turn the ''trailer'' position into a much more potent one.
3) Improve the cycle
4) Inadevertently cause the game to be much more back-and-forth
5) Encourage the ''stretch pass'' even more than before
This really ''gives'' the game back to the forwards. Without actually restricting the goalies or defense, it will help the forwards be much more creative and have a lot more room to work with. I can't find a single flaw in this idea! If anyone knows of one, let us know, but from my point of view this idea seems ideal.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 07:50:40
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wow i think i would stop watching hockey if this went into effect,,,, already limiting the goalies playing the puck is completely ridiculous this though would be as bad as making the nets bigger,,, what is wrong with the trap?? its not like the devils and the wild can't be beat,, i mean the trap is a great part of hockey,,, maybe i'm bias because i personally find 1-0 2-1 games much more entertaining.. then high scoring games,, good teams who play good systems can easily take the effectiveness of the trap away and keep the game moving i can only see this slowing the game down remving mobility of players and congesting the game,, its just a terrible idea i'm sorry,,
Pasty |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 14:07:02
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I can appreciate that as a goalie coach you probably enjoy seeing the goalies shine. I'm not disputing that. I like 2-1 games much more than 5-4 games. The only thing is, I'm getting pretty sick of teams playing dump-and-chase all the time, almost never recovering the puck... and the odd time they do recover, the cycle lasts a couple seconds and they lose posession. Or worse, seeing them trying to attack the trap head-on and losing the puck in the mix, or ending up taking a shot from a little inside the blue line.
I want low-scoring end to end games, I want to go back to the days where you sat on the edge of your seat and needed to have a healthy heart just to watch hockey.  This idea of mine opens up a lot of ice that wouldn't be there otherwise.
1) It forces the trap to spread out, because the offside line coming in is farther back. This helps the offensive team find gaps.
2) Once in the offensive zone, it gives teams much more breathing room and a license to be much more creative.
I would think that any system that can do both of those without any cons would be widely accepted. I don't see how this would ''congest'' the game or ''remove the mobility of players'' -- to the opposite!
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 14:36:33
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| I'm sorry but could you clarify offsides going out of the zone? I'm not sure I follow that. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 14:42:28
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
I'm sorry but could you clarify offsides going out of the zone? I'm not sure I follow that.
OK. When a defending team clears the puck, if they clear it past the first line (light blue in the diagram) the attacking team can stay in the zone. Only if the puck is cleared past the second line (dark blue in the diagram) must the attacking team ''tag-up'' and get back onside. If you still do not understand let me know.
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting |
Edited by - Alex on 08/01/2008 15:02:32 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 15:49:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
I'm sorry but could you clarify offsides going out of the zone? I'm not sure I follow that.
OK. When a defending team clears the puck, if they clear it past the first line (light blue in the diagram) the attacking team can stay in the zone. Only if the puck is cleared past the second line (dark blue in the diagram) must the attacking team ''tag-up'' and get back onside. If you still do not understand let me know.
Proudly Celebrating Over 50 Blogs and Counting
We used to play something in our ball hockey league that was called a floating blue line. It was basically that once the offensive team gains the blue line, for the defending team to "clear" the puck they have to get it out past the red line. Made things quite interesting.
In the end, I don't think the games needs any kind of alteration like this. There is nothing wrong with the game right now. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 17:45:56
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| If you want exciting end to end hockey back the simple solution is to shrink the goalie pads back to the size before they ballooned to monstrous proportions and make them out of heavy leather again. This simple little change forces the goalie to change styles and consequently forces the defensemen to change along with them. When shots go in from the blueline because a goalie doesn't cover the entire net like they do now it forces defensemen to take chances to stop the puck from getting to the net. Waiting for the goalie to make a routine stop and then clearing the puck isn't the safe bet when the goalie looks like a stick man as opposed to the Michelin Man. It's so simple. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2008 : 19:21:00
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| Ohh, thanks for the clarifcation Alex. Personally, this makes the game more complicated to some people and I'm sure there would be many confused, especially the casual hockey fan (American or Canadian). Still, that being said, it would actually work pretty well, but right now the NHL doesn't need a rule like this. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 14:37:05
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August 3rd, 2008
So the Mats Sundin saga treks onward. J.P. Barry was courteous enough to let on that there are six teams interested in his services. Using next to little deductive reasoning, it’s much clearer who’s in the hunt. This is what we know: Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are in the hunt. Detroit is not. That leaves twenty-six teams as potential candidates, with more than half being eliminated simply on the basis that they can’t afford the cap hit.
Furthermore, a good percentage of the remaining teams would not reasonably be pursuing Sundin. Los Angeles and the New York Islanders are immediately ruled out, as they have openly stated that this season will be dedicated to their youth. Scratch the Florida Panthers off the list too. They basically let their franchise player walk away from them this off-season, in return for two sub-par defensemen and a draft pick. To then sign Sundin wouldn’t make any sense at all. It would follow that St. Louis, a team still feeling the growing pains of rebuilding, wouldn’t throw their remaining $9.015 million of cap space at him either. Atlanta can be dismissed in the same breath. Don Waddel does after all have a business sense, and he won’t be making any desperate lunges at the cup with his current roster. And then there’s Phoenix and Columbus. Both Gretzky and Hitchcock have been desperately trying to get a system into place, and in both cases, hope is finally on the horizon. Sundin does not fit into either scenario. That leaves Nashville as the last team to be crossed off. Unless the management has any curveballs up their sleeves, this type of move just doesn’t fit. And come on, Mats Sundin in Tenesse? When pigs fly.
That leaves us with four teams, and all have their own valid reasons to be table-talking the Swedish legend. Ottawa, with nearly 9 million in cap space, have a sales pitch that’s up there with the best of them. A chance to play with countryman Daniel Alfredsson (both in search of Cup number one) and a team in the same division, with a good chance at taking it. Then there’s Buffalo. A lot of the ‘supporting cast’ of the 2007 team is now ready to step out of the wading pool. They have nearly 10 mil in liquid assets and are a couple pieces away from former glory. Colorado is also a possibility. They’re a contender and will need to fill the gap for a retiring Sakic / Foppa. And finally, Carolina. They have just as much money as Toronto, but a better team. When it comes down to it, I thought the New York Rangers had the most compelling case. But to do hire Mats at this point, they need to shed around four million in payroll. Since that would entail kissing one of their recent acquisitions goodbye, it doesn’t seem to be in the cards.
We’ll see if this one’s a bull’s-eye or not in the days to come, but logic says that these are the teams that are making a push for Sundin’s services.
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 16:33:16
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I'll give you one thing. Chances are high that those are the teams involved, but I'd also say they aren't the teams Sundin wants.
With the exception of Montreal, none of those teams were anywhere near good last season ( a lot of them stank). If Mats comes back, it's to win. I would have thought the Rangers or Red Wings were his primary options, but since they're gone, let me throw out the Dallas Stars.
They're going to be battling all season long with Detroit and as their roster stands right now do have what it takes to oust the defending champs in a seven game series. If they add Mats Sundin, I'd say they're better. Now it would mean dropping Jere Lehtinen, who is also advancing in years, to make some room in the cap. I'm not sure which one is better value, a solid two-way forward or a big, strong experienced forward. I'm just saying that Mats in Dallas could happen.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 05:28:08
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There is a more likely chance of Sundin going to an un-mentioned team to another un-mentioned(oops i mean mentioned team according to Alex  ) as in the Ottawa Senators.
Ottawa as everybody knows is the team every Leafs fan loves to hate. Does anybody really think, besides alex that the Sens are in the bidding.
Lets assume Mats Sundin signs with the Canucks. He would already be going against his assurance that he wants to stay and play for TML's for the rest of his career.
By going to Ottawa
The undermost team of most Leaf fans, he would be completely going against everything he belives in and be hated by his most beloved team for the rest of his life. I dont think thats how you want to bounce out of the T-dot.
Lets not get over our heads here Alex, Ottawa has about 8.8 in cap space and considering all the things i just stated do you really think Ottawa has a valid chance considering the other offers they have to compete with from OTHER teams besides the sens. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 06:11:01
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I'm just saying I think Ottawa may be making a push for him, not that he wants to go there necessarily. But let us remember that one of the front runners is the notorious and better (gasp!) Montreal Canadiens, an even more despised foe.
If he indeed does decide to go to a contender, the logo on their jersey won't matter. If he decides to stay in T.O., so be it. But he won't decide to go to a ''lesser'' contender just to suit his former club.
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 06:30:21
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I would cross Buffalo off of the list, and Ottawa seam's unlikely in my mind. BTBD, I'm sure that Sundin wouldn't go to Dallas, as they have their lineup set for next year already with less then 1 mil in cap space to spare. Add to that that Dallas has a good core of centers (Richards, Robidas, Avery and Modano), Sundin won't go there.
If Sundin comes back he would be a number 1 or 2 center in my mind. Carolina has Staal and Brind'Amour and Colorado still needs to sign Sakic / Foppa. Colorado hasn't expressed interest in Sundin, so that rules them out at this stage as well.
Sundin has three primary teams in mind; Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto ,as mentioned by Alex. JP Barry said three teams had interest too, but said it was minimal and nothing to serious.
If this were to be the case, I would have money on the NYR and the Detroit Red Wings. Sure cap is an issue, but that can be cleaned up. With Sundin both teams gain a potent core down the middle, plus solid line mates around them. Add in a strong and stable defense and a premier goaltender (Osgood was as good as anyone last year, and he is definitely a caliber #1) and you have the makings for a Stanley Cup Contender. 5 teams, 1 player. I guarantee he will go to either Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, NYR or the Detroit Red Wings.
Anything else would shock me. |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 07:07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
I'm just saying I think Ottawa may be making a push for him, not that he wants to go there necessarily. But let us remember that one of the front runners is the notorious and better (gasp!) Montreal Canadiens, an even more despised foe.
If he indeed does decide to go to a contender, the logo on their jersey won't matter. If he decides to stay in T.O., so be it. But he won't decide to go to a ''lesser'' contender just to suit his former club.
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame
Im not sure what kind of fans you tend to associate with or be around but im pretty sure the general consensus among most Leaf fans would be they despise the Sens more although the Habs rivalry is more classic to be correct.
The games are more intense between the Leafs and the Sens therefore increasing the hatred among one another.
I am not under-mining the rivalry of the Habs and Leafs but you'd have to think from the cheap-shot of Alfredsson on Tucker to the cockiness of Heatley, over the years the rivalry has mounted to a intensity that surpasses the Habs. |
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Guest9874
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Posted - 08/04/2008 : 07:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
I would cross Buffalo off of the list, and Ottawa seam's unlikely in my mind. BTBD, I'm sure that Sundin wouldn't go to Dallas, as they have their lineup set for next year already with less then 1 mil in cap space to spare. Add to that that Dallas has a good core of centers (Richards, Robidas, Avery and Modano), Sundin won't go there.
If Sundin comes back he would be a number 1 or 2 center in my mind. Carolina has Staal and Brind'Amour and Colorado still needs to sign Sakic / Foppa. Colorado hasn't expressed interest in Sundin, so that rules them out at this stage as well.
Sundin has three primary teams in mind; Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto ,as mentioned by Alex. JP Barry said three teams had interest too, but said it was minimal and nothing to serious.
If this were to be the case, I would have money on the NYR and the Detroit Red Wings. Sure cap is an issue, but that can be cleaned up. With Sundin both teams gain a potent core down the middle, plus solid line mates around them. Add in a strong and stable defense and a premier goaltender (Osgood was as good as anyone last year, and he is definitely a caliber #1) and you have the makings for a Stanley Cup Contender. 5 teams, 1 player. I guarantee he will go to either Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, NYR or the Detroit Red Wings.
Anything else would shock me.
detroit said they werent interested and n.y. doesnt have the cap room
it has to be other teams than that
but chances are the only real contenders for him are T.O., habs and 'nucks. |
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Leafs_Fan_67
Top Prospect
14 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2008 : 07:36:27
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You can't dismiss Colorado as not being interested. Most hockey websites have them on the unofficial short-list of interested teams. They are a team with a history of success and made it to the second round last year despite having injuries everywhere.
The only place they are shaky is in net, but other than that they wouldn't be stupid to pursue Mats Sundin. Whether he is considering them is another story... |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 06:37:34
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Keep in mind that Colorado still needs to sign Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg. With 10 mil left under the cap either Sundin, Sakic or Forsberg would need to take a huge pay cut. Sakic made 6.75 mil last year and Forsberg made a base salary of 5 mil, but because he joined the team for only 42 days the end result of the cap hit is 1.12 mil.
With Forsberg coming back this year earlier (probably the whole 187 days of the contract) his cap hit will be considerably higher. Sakic played only half the season last year but still managed to put up 40 points. Forsberg, who played only 9 games, garnered 14 points. So if we were to calculate that Sakic plays the entire year healthy this year, he could get approx 80. Forsberg, if at the rate he went last year, could get 127 points if he played the whole year at 100% healthy.
Now, Sakic getting 80 and Forsberg getting 127 is almost impossible and highly unlikely, and I'm not saying that they will come close to those figures at all. But Sakic could probably get 50 next year and 40 from Forsberg isn't a stretch.
Last year, 40 point players included Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson, Tim Connolly and Johan Franzen. Those players made roughly 1.65 on average. Sakic or Forsberg won't make that, that's a guarantee. But let's say that I'm generous and Sakic and Forsberg make the bar minimum they could make, let's say 3 mil each. Between the two of them that eats away 60% of the Avs remaining cap space, with only 4 mil left to spend. Sundin wouldn't go there for 4 mil, especially since Colorado wouldn't even guarantee him a serious Cup run, let alone a Cup.
I'm sure that Sundin won't go to Colorado because it wouldn't work for Sundin at the salary he would take, nor would it work for Colorado financially. I'm sure they would want at least 2 mil for safety during the season. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 07:06:57
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Sakic has not signed yet. He may retire.
Forsberg is not coming back any time soon. He is still having problems with his feet and ankles. There was a report back in early July that he will not be ready for the start of the season and will not be ready until Christmas time at the absolutely earliest.
Here is a news story.
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jul/13/report-foot-woes-might-end-forsbergs-career/
That being said, if Forsberg and Sakic do not return, Colorado will have room. |
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Open_Ice
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 11:42:22
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| I still think sundin will retire. if not then he will go to toronto |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 19:01:32
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August 5th, 2008
Twenty years ago Wayne Douglas Gretzky was traded to the Los Angeles Kings and instantly became the pied piper of the south. The Kings never managed winning a Stanley Cup (stupid McSorley!) but a lot of others went on to gain from this blockbuster deal. Among them, hockey’s entire Southeast division. Many of hockey’s modern fans weren’t around to feel the ramifications of that trade, and the cultural shock may remain unsurpassed. But let us imagine the tables were reversed.
Pretend for a second that you are a stereotypical Toronto Maple Leafs fan. For the most part you only follow hockey. It’s not that you don’t like the Jays or Raptors; it’s just, who needs the aggravation of getting disappointed by yet another losing franchise? Anyways, you’re at your ends wit when one day you read the headline in the Toronto Sun. The world’s best soccer player ever just got traded to Toronto FC. And he’s under thirty years old!
No one can tell me they wouldn’t be excited. I’d go nuts! All you’d see in Toronto would be FC flags. The Leafs could literally sign every forty year old has-been in the entire league and it would stop making the front page. T.V. ads would feature this soccer stud, your breakfast cereal would have his sweaty face plastered all over it, McDonald’s would be giving out his action figure…! In short, it would be soccer mayhem. This is what I imagine the Gretzky trade did for Los Angeles. (Beans or anyone else, if you could share with us your fondest memories of the era, that’d be great!)
While this exact situation would never materialize, the concept is a smart marketing agent. Had the Raptors drafted Lebron, no one would care about the Leafs anymore. While likely no one will ever have the impact on a low-key market as Gretzky did, certain players manage to turn heads wherever they go. For this reason Medvedev of the KHL targets guys like Federov and MLS targeted Beckham.
And hey, Toronto sports teams are at such a low right now that we’d follow lawn-bowling if the right guy came along. Here’s hoping we get ourselves a star some time soon!
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
Edited by - Alex on 08/05/2008 19:04:57 |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2008 : 19:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
August 5th, 2008
...
Pretend for a second that you are a stereotypical Toronto Maple Leafs fan. For the most part you only follow hockey. It’s not that you don’t like the Jays or Raptors; it’s just, who needs the aggravation of getting disappointed by yet another losing franchise?
....
uhhh just t inform you the jays won back to back world series titles,,, they are quite far from a losing franchise and and since those back to back world series came in the 90's i'd say their success has been recent enough.... given that only 8 teams make the post season in the mlb
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 08/05/2008 19:14:32 |
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Open_Ice
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 07:32:46
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How about renaming the blog but keeping The Alex Blog in the title as well. For example:
The Alex Blog: 'The Gretzky Trade - Modern Day Equivalent' Aug 5
Just an idea... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 10:59:00
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I completely disagree with Alex on this one. There is not a player in the world today on a team sport that could transend a sport the way Gretzky did with hockey.
There is not a basketball player in the world that could go to the Raptors tomorrow and make the Raptors more popular than the Leafs and have indirect impacts on adding NBA teams to Canada. Neither with Soccer. Not that a Gretzkyesqe player doesn't exist in Soccer, just that many North Americans are oblivious to the skill of soccer player. For example, David Beckham is a one trick pony and has never been a top player in the world. However, MLS goes nuts. BUT, not nuts to the Gretzky in LA levels. Sure, the Galaxy sell out most games and any road game the Galaxy are involved in are sold out. But what about Toronto against New York??? No one even cares.
Like Gretkzy or not, there has not been a player in team sport that has had a more significant impact on their sport in the past 30 years at least. There are guys in individual sports (Lance Armstrong, Roger Federer, Tiger Woods) that have transended their sports, but no one in any team sports. Michael Jordan would be the closest, but he did not have the impact on the NBA that Gretzky had on the NHL.
And, in regards to the example of Labron James being in Toronto and the Leafs would be forgotten. Completely absurd. There is no team that will ever rival the Leafs in Toronto. |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 15:08:43
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C'mon, beans, how about when Pele signed with the New York Cosmos back in the '70s??
(In case no-one gets it, that is clearly a joke. I wholeheartedly agree with every portion of beans' post) |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 15:21:11
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I agree with Beans on this one. No one person could make a league totally reshape itself like Gretzky did to the US. Also, when Gretzky went to LA the talk wasn't all hockey, and even with Gretzky the area was still dominated by the NBA and the glory days of the Lakers. As well as the Kings did the Lakers did better, and sold out more. It wasn't hockey mayhem, more like a significant notice from the people there.
Beckham went to LA and it isn't soccer mayhem there. If the LA Galaxy make it to the championship game I bet you that Lakers Summer Basketball will be more important over there. NO player will ever replicate what Gretzky did, and no player will ever come close again.
BTW Beans, Beckham has been considered the best soccer player in the world before, especially when he played for Manchester United. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 23:26:49
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| What if some player scores 250 points in the NHL and signs with a 'pro' japanese team the next year... thats never going to happen, but its about the only thing that would come close to the gretzky trade's impact on the sport |
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Guest9795
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Posted - 08/07/2008 : 00:49:33
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sorry but jordan sold a hell of a lot more tickets in Chicago than gretzky ever did in LA or Edmonton (or St. Louis for that matter) combined.
But anyway, we'll never see the magnitude of trade ever again because G changed sport (not just hockey but all team sports) he opened up the markets and made EVERY player in every sport tradable. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 05:46:41
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My comment is a bit off topic and this may seem like I am trying to bash Gretzky (but I'm not). But just to throw another light on this conversation,I am going to throw out my opinion that, certainly if we are simply measuring "interesting" trades in history, the Gretzky one doesn't rank in the top 20 trades ever if you look at all the players involved.
But even in terms of the most "significant" trades ever (focusing on what happened in the NHL standings/Stanley Cup results thereafter) the Gretzky trade is not, in my opinion the top trade, and probably isn't even in the top 7 ever. Off the top of my head, the Butch Goring trade to the Isles, the Espo-Vadnais for Ratelle-Park trade and older ones, one involving the Big M, and one Andy Bathgate, all out-rank the Gretzky trade in terms of significance on the standings/Stanley Cup results.
The "trade" was a huge event, no doubt. But just like when he came in the league, there wasn't really a trade that day anyway. There was a business transaction.
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 07:53:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9795
sorry but jordan sold a hell of a lot more tickets in Chicago than gretzky ever did in LA or Edmonton (or St. Louis for that matter) combined.
But anyway, we'll never see the magnitude of trade ever again because G changed sport (not just hockey but all team sports) he opened up the markets and made EVERY player in every sport tradable.
You're comparing Gretzky selling hockey tickets in LA to Jordan selling basketball tickets in Chicago as if that isn't an imbalance to begin with ?!? That fact alone is a testament to how huge that trade was, and how huge Gretzky was to his sport.
quote:
originally posted by andyhack
My comment is a bit off topic and this may seem like I am trying to bash Gretzky (but I'm not). But just to throw another light on this conversation,I am going to throw out my opinion that, certainly if we are simply measuring "interesting" trades in history, the Gretzky one doesn't rank in the top 20 trades ever if you look at all the players involved.
But even in terms of the most "significant" trades ever (focusing on what happened in the NHL standings/Stanley Cup results thereafter) the Gretzky trade is not, in my opinion the top trade, and probably isn't even in the top 7 ever. Off the top of my head, the Butch Goring trade to the Isles, the Espo-Vadnais for Ratelle-Park trade and older ones, one involving the Big M, and one Andy Bathgate, all out-rank the Gretzky trade in terms of significance on the standings/Stanley Cup results.
The "trade" was a huge event, no doubt. But just like when he came in the league, there wasn't really a trade that day anyway. There was a business transaction.
"Interesting" isn't a very quantifiable quality, so it is really a matter of personal preference, no? I can think of dozens of transactions in history that are all interesting in their own specific way... and they all appear to be very "significant".
The Gretzky trade is surely one of the most "significant" trades , and not just based on standings & cups. Moose may have never had the chance to lead on his own if Gretzky was always there, therefore he may have never been traded to - or lead, for that matter - the Rangers to their only cup since Noah was a cowboy. Patrick Roy may have one less Conn Smythe because a different team may have faced him in the '93 finals that proved a more worthy opponent than the Gretzky-led Kings. This reduces Montreal's cup count too, and it eliminates their "cup in every decade" record.
And so on, and so on....
All of the "significant" trades certainly effected championships and standings. It would appear that the Gretzky trade affected more than just that.
And, yes it was more of a business transaction, wasn't it? In the form of a trade though. Too bad Pocklington couldn't have sold his meat-packing business instead of this. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 13:13:29
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Andy I agree that the Gretzky trade did not have as serious an impact on the standings of the Cup than other trades in the past. I think the perspective that we are looking at is the impact on the sport as a whole. The NHL was in USA for a long time before the trade, but that was the turning point of increased interest in the sport. Mostly media driven from "The Greatest Player who ever lived" being in LA, which was traditionally a non-hockey town before.
And in regards to David Beckham being the best player in the world. When he was with Man-U, he was not the best player. He is incredibly impressive off of set pieces as well as passing the ball from the wing. That is his trick. He really doesn't have anything else. He is poor defensively and not the player with the most heart on the field. He has never been ranked at FIFA player of the year. Twice he came in 2nd, but an no point in his career has be been the best player in the world. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 14:28:04
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quote:
Originally posted by 99pickles
"Interesting" isn't a very quantifiable quality, so it is really a matter of personal preference, no? I can think of dozens of transactions in history that are all interesting in their own specific way... and they all appear to be very "significant".
My point about "interesting" trades is this - when you look at all the great players involved in either of the Espo trades, you see that they were trades that, on a pure hockey, non-business, level, fans could have talked about for hours on end then, and fans could talk about for hours on end now. Think about it. In the mid-70s trade, 3 of the 4 main players involved in the trade are in the HHOF. Not just one and guys named Jimmy Carson, etc. Three out of Four! And you had the whole "being traded to an arch rival" thing going on too. In that sense, from my perspective anyway, those trades were not only more "interesting" but far moreso.
Pickles - I'll give you that the Gretzky "trade" had a very significant impact on the sport of hockey as a whole, but I think your comments about potential influence are relatively remote compared to the very real effect of, for example, the Butch Goring trade. The Isles don't make that trade and they might very well go down as a team of under-achieving choke artists. I think there is a very legitimate argument to be made that Bill Torrey's move that March was the most significant trade by a general manager ever. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 16:39:17
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August 7th, 2008
Take two guys who hate each other, throw them into an ice competition together, and you have Blades of Glory… or the captain and newest member of the Dallas Stars. Whatever floats your boat. The only difference being no one doubts Sean Avery’s sexual orientation.
The interesting storyline to this signing, of course, is that both Brenden Morrow and Marty Turco have been very liberal in their attacks on Avery. Morrow recently fessed up to having said he ‘hates him.’ Turco meanwhile exercised complete discretion when asked to comment on the stick-waving fiasco. And now the three amigos are expected to become cornerstones of a cup run.
The question becomes, is it all really left out on the ice? Or rather, do hockey players hold grudges? Clearly, no one is going to be spray painting ‘Go Home’ on Avery’s garage door, but the bad blood might still creep in to the locker room. The way I see it, the onus will be on Morrow, not Avery, to hold his nose and make up.
After all, Sean Avery knows his job. He doesn’t care what people think. Whether his own teammates respect him or not, that doesn’t really matter. He is getting fifteen million to piss the hell out of every other player, and he intends to do just that. For the rest of the Stars, though, he may just be as distracting as a boogying circus clown at a G8 meeting. Their task, and it will be hard, will be to emulate inch by inch their game plan of last season, independent of Sean.
On a final note, I think that this teaches an important lesson. There really is no such thing as burning your bridges. Even the worst of enemies can get along if the situation calls for it. Some people aren’t man enough to swallow their pride, but those that are have a much easier time. If tomorrow Avery got traded to Toronto, Jason Blake would welcome him with open arms. If he got traded to New Jersey, ‘fatso’ would lead an armed rebellion and organize sit-ins and boycotts. One way of dealing with things is mature; the other is not. Not that Sean Avery really cares, but that’s besides the point…
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
Edited by - Alex on 08/07/2008 16:40:21 |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 17:12:52
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And you thought Ray Emery was a troublemaker? Wow, are the Stars in for something.
In general, I am completely against signing ''attitude players.'' Alex, you made a few great points in your June 20th Blog on Kyle Beach. After all, is it worth the risk?
I mean, here you have probably the third best team last year adding a guy that has incredible downside. Yes, his upside is also big. But big-upside-big-downside is the classification of a ''risk.'' Why is such a good team taking any of those?
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 18:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
If tomorrow Avery got traded to Toronto, Jason Blake would welcome him with open arms. If he got traded to New Jersey, ‘fatso’ would lead an armed rebellion and organize sit-ins and boycotts. One way of dealing with things is mature; the other is not.
I'm not so sure Blake would welcome him with open arms. But even if he would, I think you can look at the potential opposite reactions in a very different way than you describe. One reaction shows principles - Marty's - as it would put what is right and wrong over the comparitively unimportant goal of trying to win hockey games. And one shows no principles (and is hypocritical) - that being suddenly welcoming Avery just because he is on your team even though you strongly disagreed with some of his act before.
There is a middle ground as usual. Go up to him and tell him you like the pest thing to a degree, but there are certain things that you don't respect.
Again, there is a difference to some of the stuff Avery has done and stuff pests from the past have done. I'd have a hard time welcoming this guy with open arms no matter how much I wanted to win. I'd have less of a hard time with Tikanen, Kenny the Rat, Claude Lemieux and a number of others.
Edit - Where does your thinking end? Would the onus be on Cam Neely to go up to Ulfie and make the peace if, in a bizarre move, Ulfie would have been traded to the Bruins the year after that incident? |
Edited by - andyhack on 08/07/2008 18:22:06 |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 04:14:07
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Andy - I think the very real and direct results of Gretzky being traded to LA could hardly be considered as 'remote' by any stretch of the imagination. Gretzky going to the Kings completely changed the complexion of the team; turning them immediately into a contender by his simply being there. Whereas Goring being traded to NYI was a 'final piece of the puzzle' that put them over the top. I hardly think that anyone could realistically say that he alone made the difference on that team.
Don't get me wrong, both were very interesting and significant trades as were many others (Toronto buying Clancy led to 5 cups in 7 years, for example, and that was a 'business transaction' as much as the Gretzky trade was. But that doesn't remove any interesting or important qualities whatsoever, let alone it's effect on cup winnings).
I suppose I don't see there being any importance on WHY any trade/transaction happened. Whether it was interesting, or significant is the important thing. Like Roy going to Colorado. It was a forced trade,and it was certainly both interesting and significant in the annals of hockey history.
Comparatively, Gretzky's financially forced trade (from the standpoint of the owner) was just as interesting and significant also.
Actually, the minor insignificance of the Goring trade at the time it occurred rendered it pretty unimportant at the time. It wasn't until they started their cup streak that it turned into a very important trade from a team standpoint. And that wasn't known, or even recognized until after the trade. Unlike the Gretzky trade where it was pretty obvious even before the next season began that this trade changed a LOT of things for the upcoming season.
My bottom line is: I don't see how one can say that the Gretzky trade isn't even in the top seven important or interesting or significant trades of all time. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 06:45:42
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Pickles
The "interesting" trade question - don't forget that my definition of "interesting trades" was focusing on the actual hockey aspect of ALL the players involved in the trade. I admit that it is a narrow way of defining the word here, but I guess, for me, a trade involving 1) the best goal scorer of the time 2) arguably the second best defenseman of the time and 3) one of the best/classiest players of the time far outranks a trade that just involves one tremendous great (Wayne) and a bunch of good but far from great players. I point out one example but there are many more. Cam Neely for Barry Pederson is more "interesting" in my mind than the Gretzky deal. So is, again by far, the deal(s) that brought Lafleur to the Habs. And there are many others.
The "significant" trade question - first, I think that you are right about characterizing the Goring trade as a "final piece to the puzzle" move. But I think that is precisely why it is SIGNIFICANTLY MORE SIGNIFICANT than the Gretzky trade. This is a case where we have to mesh hypothetical guesses with actual results. Who knows what would have happened with or without Goring on the Isles. That is matter for a best guess hypothetical. Here is what we do know though. With him they won 4 cups. Without him, prior to the trade for 3 years or so basically the same team did very well in the regular season but came up short in the playoffs. I think, in that sense, there is more of a "real" cause and effect link to what Goring did for the Isles compared to some of the things you mentioned were the result of the Gretzky trade (i.e. linking Messier's Ranger Cup to the Gretzky trade). I do acknowledge that Gretzky had a huge effect on the Kings performance, BUT, that produced one final. The Goring trade helped produce 4 Cups!
My guess is that we can come up with at least a few and probably at least 6 other trades that were more significant on the standings/cup performance. Again, I am not talking about the effect on the sport as a whole. How about the trade that brought the draft pick that turned out to be Ray Bourque to the Bruins? That trade doesn't occur and the Bruins of the 80s and early 90s may have missed the playoffs for a decade or more.
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Edited by - andyhack on 08/08/2008 06:47:44 |
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wyntyre
Rookie
Canada
185 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 13:16:09
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| Avery is an IDIOT....seriously....first he's all yapping on TV about coming to "a better team than the last one" and then "who knows last year in the playoffs if (he) was in the line up"....Yeah Avery...you were the missing cog for the Stanley Cup for the Stars....I hope Turco chops him up Billy Smith style in training camp.... |
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Canada - Russia rap 
