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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
 Posted - 08/08/2008 : 13:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by BradTheBadDad
I mean, here you have probably the third best team last year adding a guy that has incredible downside. Yes, his upside is also big. But big-upside-big-downside is the classification of a ''risk.''
If you were to ask Avery, I'm sure he would tell you that having a big upside, or even a big downside is better than having a goaltender with a big backside.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 14:05:31
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Say what you want about Avery's antics, can anyone tell me of a single time that he did not come to the aid of his team mate on the ice?? One time?? I doubt it. Generally, he is the first guy into a scrum regardless of weather his team mate started the donnybrook.
At the end of the day, if you can take the "media" view away from Sean Avery. Please explain the "downside" he has??
I personally would love to have Avery on my team. He is the best instigator in the league and he has the skills to play on one of the top 2 lines on any team in the league.
That is gold in my books. |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 16:10:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Say what you want about Avery's antics, can anyone tell me of a single time that he did not come to the aid of his team mate on the ice?? One time?? I doubt it. Generally, he is the first guy into a scrum regardless of weather his team mate started the donnybrook.
At the end of the day, if you can take the "media" view away from Sean Avery. Please explain the "downside" he has??
I personally would love to have Avery on my team. He is the best instigator in the league and he has the skills to play on one of the top 2 lines on any team in the league.
That is gold in my books.
Potential downside being the distraction he can be to a team that was solid enough without him. Especially considering the comments some of his new teammates have made about him in the past. 
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2008 : 19:52:12
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Guys it's been a while since we talked about it, but I think Michael Phelps is worthy of mention in the ''most dominant athlete'' debate.
Let's review what we know.
-Most Olympic golds ever
-Swimmer of the Year 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2007.
-In Beijing: 4 races, 4 golds, 4 world records
Looking to become the first to nab 8 golds in one Olympics
This guy has to be on our list. I didn't dedicate a blog to it but I'm just throwing it out there. Oh, and yeah: he makes the tug-of-war between Nadal and Federer look like a preschool fight over crayons. 
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
Edited by - Alex on 08/12/2008 19:53:14 |
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Guest6196
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 05:48:16
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As a once competitive swimmer I must agree Phelps sure is dominating these Olympics. It will be a great feat to watch.
I would say Lance Armstrong would be the most dominating athlete of all time.
If you are basing this on records which is not easily achievable my vote would be for Joe Dimaggio. Even after his streak of 56 ended he went out and had a 17 game hit streak.
My post is only North American speaking. There are athletes overseas which are more dominating. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 08:56:39
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| How about Ali? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 11:06:43
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Phelps has to win all of his races to beat what Spitz did in 72. That hasn't happened yet. All it will take is one off race and he will not do that.
Tiger Woods anyone????? |
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Guest6196
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 11:55:11
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Beans,
I must agree with you, Phelps is not there yet, and the exciting and up in the air 50m Free is still to come. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 12:41:29
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Lets pick one/two player's or competitor's from each sport and make the list and compare.
Golf- Tiger Woods
Soccer- Pele, Maradona
Boxing- Ali
Hockey- Wayne
Swimming- Phelps?
Tennis- Federer
Baseball -Really tough, I don't really know who since everyone and their dog uses steroids.
Basketball- MJ?
I forget alot of the formerally mentioned athletes, add them too.
Chicago Blackhawks GM |
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Guest8372
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Posted - 08/13/2008 : 14:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
Lets pick one/two player's or competitor's from each sport and make the list and compare.
Golf- Tiger Woods
Soccer- Pele, Maradona
Boxing- Ali
Hockey- Wayne
Swimming- Phelps?
Tennis- Federer
Baseball -Really tough, I don't really know who since everyone and their dog uses steroids.
Basketball- MJ?
How come all guys? I think Tennis would be Graf or Navratilova are more dominant than any of the men. I believe Greene was the last woman to win all 4 Grand Slam in a calendar year.
Baseball is not a sport therefore no need to include.
Basketball, Chamberlain is much more dominant than MJ. I'd even pick Russel over MJ.
Golf - Again not a sport so let's not include since you'll let baseball in, then darts, bowling, billiards, tidly winks, competitive eating....
Soccer - Pele leave out the other.
Squash - J. Khan
Wrestling - the Russian Bear
Cycling - Armstrong
Boxing - There no way that Ali was dominant. Sure he won the title 4 times which means he lost it 3 times. I'd look in the lower weight class for more dominant performers. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 14:51:12
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"Dominance" is such a big word to me, and somewhat overused in my opinion. But if we are going to use it, I think it helps to be as specific as possible. I'll just do my two favorite sports now.
Hockey - Bobby Orr from 1970 to 1972
Men's Tennis - Federer from 2004 to 2007 and McEnroe in 1984
Women's Tennis - Navritilova in 1983 and 1984 and Graf in 1988
For other sports, I'll just say this for now. "Dominant" or not, MJ and Ali (pre-67) are two guys I would have paid ridiculous amounts of money to see play/fight live. |
Edited by - andyhack on 08/13/2008 14:52:59 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 22:38:00
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Alright, just to throw this out, "sport" is defined as an activity governed by a set of rules or customs that is often engaged in competatively. You don't need to be a golf fan to see how competative Tiger Woods is. There is not a person on the planet today that is more competative.
In MY life time (30 year) here would be me dominante list in regards to "popular" North American Sports. And to clarify this, it doesn't mean they had to win everything, I mean the best of the best in their sport in the past 30 years.
Hockey - Gretzky
Golf - Tiger Woods
Baseball - Jenny Finch.
Football - Tough, I would say Dan Marino or Barry Sanders
Basketball - Jordan
Boxing - Hate to say it, Mike Tyson in his prime could have beaten anyone from any era.
Swimming - Phelps (in my time. Still hasn't beaten Spitz)
Tennis - Graf was the best of the best of the best.
Soccer - In my time, Ronaldinho is the most skilled and talented footballer to rock the pitch. I would pay stupendious amounts of money to watch him play.
Have fun beating me up for this |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 08/13/2008 : 22:44:08
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Funny guest mentioned Competetive eating.. that small guy who eats the hog dogs is by far the most dominant EVER .. LOL .. but Beans I agree Ronaldinho is one of the greats of our time along with Ronaldo ( Brazillian, the Portugese one hasn't shown me anything yet, a couple step overs)
Oh and for boxing although not the most dominant, but a fellow Canadian named George Chuvalo facsinates me, he was never knocked down in 90 fights, never knocked out. He two fight stoppages both because of a cut, one controversial. But think if boxing had no time limit and it was win by knockout, this guy would certainly be one tough guy to stop.
Chicago Blackhawks GM |
Edited by - Axey on 08/13/2008 22:47:26 |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 06:06:56
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Been away for awhile.
Beans I would appreciate if you could explain this sentence, not quite sure I understand it.
quote:
BUT, not nuts to the Gretzky in LA levels.
Beckham isn´t anywhere near the better players today. However the trade was smart when you consider the amount of attention it created for LA Galaxy and the American league. Like it or not Beckham is since his years in Manchester United one of the worlds most famous people including heads of state etc.
If not for the trade I wouldn´t be aware that the american league even existed let alone Galaxy. Would be interesting to see guys like Drogba, Torres and Gerrard play a couple of games on a american team. Ronaldinho haven´t been his old self lately. Don´t remember if it was a knee injury or something. If you watched Brazil - China recently you could see it clearly, he didn´t challenge at all, made some nice moves and just passed the ball.
Lance Armstrong isn´t even the best cycklist (sp?) ever so you can scratch him right away.
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 08:11:04
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Ronaldinho is hurt he has missed alot of games with Barcelona this year, also I've heard rumors of Cristiano Ronaldo being interested in coming to the MLS in a few years, probably a couple years after his Real Madrid debut.
Chicago Blackhawks GM |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 08:47:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Axey
Ronaldinho is hurt he has missed alot of games with Barcelona this year, also I've heard rumors of Cristiano Ronaldo being interested in coming to the MLS in a few years, probably a couple years after his Real Madrid debut.
I´m not sure a Cristiano Ronaldo in a couple of years would be much better than Beckham. Ronaldo and Ibrahimovic are in my eyes two of the worlds most overrated fotball players right now. Sure they are some of the best players out there but in the lower part of the best. They make some fancy plays sometimes sure, but I can´t stand the Diva and whiny mentality. I would take Fernando Torres over both of them any day. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2008 : 17:03:37
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What I mean by talking about the level of the Gretzky trade is that the spin off from that trade on the sport was out of this world!! What was it something like 10 or 12 teams moved to, moved in, or expanded into the US after the Gretzky trade. A winter sport in LA because one of the biggest tickets in town. That is what I mean.
What has Beckham done??? Sure, sell out where ever he goes. But, answer this: Would he be as well known in North America if he wasn't Mr. Posh Spice?? I don't think so!
And C. Ronaldo is a better player today than Beckham ever was. Beckham brought a face, but not skill. He is the most skilled player on the pitch, but it's North American Soccer. In Europe, he is likely not a starter on the best teams. I watched him play back in May in Edmonton and altough impressive compared to the rest of the player on the pitch, nothing like the European Football I have watched live. |
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Guest4579
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Posted - 08/15/2008 : 00:11:48
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quote:
Originally posted by leafsfan_101
I would cross Buffalo off of the list, and Ottawa seam's unlikely in my mind. BTBD, I'm sure that Sundin wouldn't go to Dallas, as they have their lineup set for next year already with less then 1 mil in cap space to spare. Add to that that Dallas has a good core of centers (Richards, Robidas, Avery and Modano), Sundin won't go there.
If Sundin comes back he would be a number 1 or 2 center in my mind. Carolina has Staal and Brind'Amour and Colorado still needs to sign Sakic / Foppa. Colorado hasn't expressed interest in Sundin, so that rules them out at this stage as well.
Sundin has three primary teams in mind; Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto ,as mentioned by Alex. JP Barry said three teams had interest too, but said it was minimal and nothing to serious.
If this were to be the case, I would have money on the NYR and the Detroit Red Wings. Sure cap is an issue, but that can be cleaned up. With Sundin both teams gain a potent core down the middle, plus solid line mates around them. Add in a strong and stable defense and a premier goaltender (Osgood was as good as anyone last year, and he is definitely a caliber #1) and you have the makings for a Stanley Cup Contender. 5 teams, 1 player. I guarantee he will go to either Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto, NYR or the Detroit Red Wings.
Anything else would shock me.
robidas is a defender, ribeiro? |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2008 : 02:53:22
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Ok to sum it up here´s how I see it:
Most Dominant: Alexander Karelin - Wrestling
Greatest Athlete: Pelé - Fotball (Soccer) |
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Guest6196
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Posted - 08/15/2008 : 08:21:47
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When you are refering to greatest athletes you must mention everyone who competes in the competitive Ironman events eg. Marino Vanhoenacker. Ironmen are much more athletic than Pele.
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Guest6196
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Posted - 08/15/2008 : 08:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
When you are refering to greatest athletes you must mention everyone who competes in the competitive Ironman events eg. Marino Vanhoenacker. Ironmen are much more athletic than Pele.
That is why is post is for the most dominant
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2008 : 01:43:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
When you are refering to greatest athletes you must mention everyone who competes in the competitive Ironman events eg. Marino Vanhoenacker. Ironmen are much more athletic than Pele.
That is why is post is for the most dominant
It´s possible that this is a case of "lost in translation". Maybe I should have used another word than athlete... person participating in a sport, sportsman maybe? Can´t say I´ve heard of this Marino Vanhoenacker before but I´m guessing hi has won a couple of titles. I´m not sure of how much skill you need to win Ironman, to me it´s sounds more like a pure endurance sport. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2008 : 19:21:01
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August 16, 2008
A new wave of coach is infesting the NHL, and the impact is being felt. Let it be known: these coaches aren’t your father’s coaches. Resumes mean precious little nowadays. If you buy your suits at a different tailor and chew a different brand of gum than the old guy, you’re hired.
However, unlike pet rocks, hula-hoops and Atkins, this fad seems here to stay. John Stevens and Bruce Boudreau are leading a revolution of coaches that are dancing to the beat of their own drum. One has to wonder, what are the contributing factors to these overnight success stories? My theory is that the AHL is giving coaches a fresh set of skills that other leagues don’t hold in such high demand. The reason they’re starting to get some recognition is because in today’s NHL is governed by a CBA so hard to manipulate only a few men are capable. AHL coaches are number one.
Think about it. The AHL is a league that no one really wants to be in and no one really cares about. An AHL coach knows better than anyone how to deal with the parity. They are juggling rosters on a game-to-game basis. To use a former Prime Minister’s analogy, imagine if an elephant and a mouse shared a bed. The mice would feel every toss and turn of the elephant. So too, the AHL gets jerked around by the NHL. Guys get called up and sent down all the time to their various affiliate teams. In today’s NHL where rosters get a facelift every season, who better to unify the troops than an AHL coach? If you think about it, it’s the same talent that wins Olympic teams gold medals.
But there’s more. Many people don’t realize that the NHL uses the AHL as a guinea pig, but for every new rule in the NHL, there are dozens of rejected hypotheses the AHL has tested. The ability to adapt helps coaches in many ways. On the most practical level, they know how to effectively make small changes to their game plan to match it to the playing style of their opponent. They’re also good at inventing various new defensive and offensive formations. And of course, if the NHL ever changes another rule, these guys will be the ones that make the smoothest transition.
And finally, an AHL coach has the ability to inspire guys who would rather be at home eating ice cream on their sofa. The majority of AHL players probably will end up as marginal NHLers if anything and past a certain age have nothing to play for. In an NHL where more and more guys, Canadian and foreign alike, are having their passion questioned, a coach that can draw the best out of all his players is invaluable.
It will be interesting to see if the beginner’s luck wears off or not, but for now it seems reasonable. Thoughts?
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
Edited by - Alex on 08/16/2008 20:26:00 |
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BradTheBadDad
Top Prospect
73 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2008 : 04:09:08
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Some good points there Alex, the AHL coach is more qualified than we give him credit for. One thing you forgot though is their experience coaching youth. These guys are the best when it comes to development of young prospects, and that's what a lot of these ''rebuilding'' teams are looking for. More than anything else, that's why the AHL coaches are getting contracts.
''Eat. Sleep. Hockey'' |
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Guest0979
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Posted - 08/18/2008 : 20:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Alright, just to throw this out, "sport" is defined as an activity governed by a set of rules or customs that is often engaged in competatively.
Chess, Poker, Eating, Scrabble, Twiddly Winks, Risk, Warcraft, card trading, basket weaving, knitting..... Oh the list goes on based on that definition are all a sport.
BTW, I think that Kasparov was the most competitive person ever. Even more so than Tiger will ever be. Same with Bobby Fischer in the 70s, they were relentless in there training.
How about, if you can drink (booze) or use any tobacco product while doing your activity, it is not a sport? I mean sure Guy smoked but only when he was on the bench not while playing. So baseball, no, golf, no, curling, no, chess, no, poker, no, eating, surprisingly yes, scrabble no, and the list goes on.
What do you think about that definition of a sport? |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 02:52:48
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As always an interesting read Alex. I can´t say I have watched much AHL-hockey but I thought it would be more of the Canadian style? Simple but effective drop and chase with much physicality?
quote:
How about, if you can drink (booze) or use any tobacco product while doing your activity, it is not a sport? I mean sure Guy smoked but only when he was on the bench not while playing. So baseball, no, golf, no, curling, no, chess, no, poker, no, eating, surprisingly yes, scrabble no, and the list goes on.
Had me LOL. This is why I in the past haven´t been able to take Baseball that seriously. Wouldn´t be able to name a single Baseball player even if my life depended on it.... so there´s room for some improvement. Would appreciate if someone could name 5 really good baseball players and 5 (American)-Football players.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 11:28:44
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I think this arguement is not about "sport" as much as it is about "athletics." I can completely agree that the list of what you call "activites" do not take as much athletic ability as other sports, however there is a significant amout of skill involved.
Let's use Darts as an example. Granted, dart players to not need strength, endurance, or other physical athletic abilities as do sports such as Hockey and Football. That being said you can not tell me there isn't a certain amount of muscle memory involved in having the ability to throw a dart from 8 feet away and hit a target smaller than a dime. Watch those guys play and they hit it where they want to 8 out of 10 times.
Not much athletics involved but a significant amount of skill.
Now I consider golf as similar to darts in the amount of skill to play at a world class level, but there are more athletics involved. I challenge any of you to go out and try to emulate the club head speed of Tiger Woods. I'm not even talking about getting the ball to travel in the proper direction, just get a club head speed of 120+ mph. I asked the manager at golf town in Edmonton one time about club head speed. He said that in his 6 years managing the store, he has only seen 3 people get a club head speed of more than 105 mph. Most people are under 100.
Tell me that doesn't take athletic ability??? |
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Guest8372
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Posted - 08/19/2008 : 12:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I challenge any of you to go out and try to emulate the club head speed of Tiger Woods. I'm not even talking about getting the ball to travel in the proper direction, just get a club head speed of 120+ mph.
Tell me that doesn't take athletic ability???
Sure just as much athletic ability as a big pot bellied dude to throw a 100mph fast ball. Not many people can do that either.
There is a lot of skill required in scrabble too. You try to remember all the words that has a Q but no U in them. How about poker, there is tons of skill involved there and all the permutation calculations you'd have to make every hand. Also their pretty cool with the chip shuffling thing, it is not easy to do. And talk about mental calculations, chess would blow poker out of the water.
By no means am I saying that those activities require no skill, but there is no way you can call it a sport. I mean typing requires an insane amount of skill especially if you go at 100word/min, but it is not a sport.
Oh yeah, I forgot, bowling, not a sport. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2008 : 21:56:01
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Here is my personal definition of a sport:
A sport is any competative activity that you can learn how to do, takes a lot of practice and hard work to become good, very few people in the world can do at a world class level, and finally people can get paid to do it professionally.
To me that is a sport. If it is an "athletic sport" or "non-athletic" sport is a completely different arguement.
I'm about done with this. I find it a little ignorant to not call something a sport because it is not as physical as something else. If that was the case, there would only be one sport in the entire world which would be the consensus most physically challenging.
Everything else would just be a game.
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 00:49:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
[br
If that was the case, there would only be one sport in the entire world which would be the consensus most physically challenging.
Everything else would just be a game.
Yes, that's right..and it's called HOCKEY !!
All kidding aside, I don't engage in these arguments because of one thing: I feel that I know in the bottom of my heart, that hockey is the most athletic and difficult and REAL sport to play. NO ONE on a professional hockey team is truly out of shape, and NO ONE on a pro hockey team is actually lazy by athletic standards. It takes a world of skill to skate out just to take a faceoff when compared to walking out to play first base, sorry. Now when Phelps learns to swim under ice, we'll have a discussion.
But even then it won't be a team sport where everyone has to be there for eachother on and off the ice no matter what. Even then it won't feel like you just fought in the trenches with your brothers.
There are disciplines, and there are sports. And then there are athletic wars, if you will...mixed with creative beauty.
Nothing can touch that...nothing |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2008 : 15:59:34
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August 20, 2008
The Olympics were originally a bunch of naked men running around a coliseum. Now, they’re an avenue through which to vent out a national frustration. There’s progress for you, folks.
Frankly, it’s really quite juvenile. The boycotts, the protests and what have you – that’s the practice of squabbling preschoolers, not countries of the world. Lucky for us, no major conflict stares the world in the face anymore. Worst case scenario, Afghanistan doesn’t send its athletes to Vancouver. Cry me a river.
That said, the Olympics remain the status symbol of choice amongst nations. Naturally, one would expect nothing less than the very best efforts in showcasing Canadian talent on the world stage. After all, as a member of the G8 and a benchmark for both democracy and liberty, it would only be fitting to find Canada well represented at the games. And yet, we sit in a measly 12th in total medals, tied with human rights legends Cuba and North Korea. Party time, baby!
Amidst the mediocrity, Canadians from coast to coast are voicing contempt towards a government so seemingly inept at getting things right. Whoa, u-turn! Let me be the first to say, Canada has one of if not the strongest governments in the world. I am proud to be a citizen under Stephen Harper and the Tory government, who make our health, our environment and our economy a higher priority that our gold medals. One would think that is a feat worthy of applaud.
Meanwhile China is destroying our planet and oppressing the Tibetans. The U.S. is choking its citizens with second and third mortgages and has one of the lowest ranked health care systems among first world countries. And then we have Russia, who just this week bombarded Georgia for no apparent reason other than to be a bully.
Now, I do realize that morality isn’t a currency with which to buy gold medals. But let’s not scream blue murder here, Canada isn’t doing poorly at all. In fact, Canada has more medals per citizen than the three leading countries. For those who are curious:
People per medal
Canada: 2 500 000
Russia: 3 100 000
U.S.A.: 3 700 000
China: 16 700 000
This turnout coming from a country that’s a frozen wasteland six months a year. Not too shabby, guys. If the day comes when winter athletes do as bad, then we’ll have reason to panic. Until then let’s just enjoy our standard of living and let China bask in their polluted glory.
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
Edited by - Alex on 08/20/2008 19:31:14 |
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 05:55:58
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Sounds like you are a bit dissapointed Alex? Canada got more medals than Sweden so far anyway 
I always enjoy watching the Olympics. Among the things I will remember from this one are:
1. Usain Bolt beating the unbeatable 200m record and becoming the first sprinter to set world records in both 100m and 200m in the same event. A relaxed guy who jumps around and dances to the music in his earphones during warmups.
2. Michael Phelps 8 Golds. I think it was in the end of his seventh race that you really could see how insanely good he is, the other guy almost got his hands against the wall and Phelps just throws his arms forward and wins.
3. Ara Abrahamian protests against the bad judging/ italian maffioso corruption that infests the Wrestling World by refusing to accept his bronze medal. Ara, the real winner of 84kg Greco-Roman Wrestling.
4. Jelena Isinbajeva sets the world record in Pole jump for the 24:th time in a row.
quote:
And then we have Russia, who just this week bombarded Georgia for no apparent reason other than to be a bully.
If you want to understand something in the news I would recommend that you don´t watch too much thootless american media. The nice colour graphics and waving american flags in the background doesn´t help, it´s just wortless propaganda. There are some lights in the dark though, the NYT atleast tries to understand how the other side thinks with an op-ed conribution from Gorbachev.
Now if you want to understand this situation don´t listen to media from countries that have interests in the region (USA, Russia, UK, former Soviet states). It helps if you are multi-lingual or you can use the more crude google-translator. |
Edited by - I´m also Cånädiön on 08/21/2008 06:43:54 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 16:14:55
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IAC:
To be perfectly honest, I don't feel justified in having an opinion about the Russian-Georgian conflict seeing as I do not know enough about the situation. There are those issues in which I feel an opinion is warranted, and those in which I feel having an opinion borders on arrogance.
However, I do know that most people, including leading nations, disapproved of Russia's counter-attack, saying it was way too agressive. Whether that reflects the reality or not is irrelevant within the scope of my blog, seeing as siding with that opinion promoted the point I was trying to make. When emphasising Canada's moral standards as opposed to other leading nations, it benefits me to highlight the obvious, albeit subjective, ethical downfall of the Russians in this given circumstance.
Let's not start a debate on this issue, especially since I'd probably have my butt kicked
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2008 : 19:51:47
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August 21, 2008
Memo to self: when in heaven, make sure to find the guy whose bright idea it was to invent debate and squirt lemons in his eyes.
Before you call the Children’s Aid Society, let me explain why I’m knocking a practice that has been around ever since Eve ate the apple. In authentic debate, no combatant is ever swayed into flopping positions. You can scream your face purple or say your bit in Pig Latin; it won’t do you any good. This is the most frustrating part of the process, because no matter how great your argument, no matter how moronic the issue in question, no matter how blatantly obvious the ‘right answer’ is, no one’s forcing anyone to agree.
This brings me to hockey’s equivalent: the Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate. Charles Wang avatar or Simpsons avatar is a bigger controversy for crying out loud! No one can deny that at this point in time, irregardless of the past or the future, Ovechkin’s superiority is crystal clear.
Why, then, do the Crosby fans keep sprouting like weeds? (For the record, I’m one of those Crosby guys.) After months of deliberation, I, Alex, have the answer: we plain and simple want Crosby to be better! Honestly, doesn’t everyone want to see some Canadian kid rewrite the record book and be the next big thing? Does anyone want to admit that the ‘Next One’ isn’t really that – that, perish the thought, a Russian is better? It’s freakin’ sacrilegious.
In fact, let’s take it a step further. Would we want to see Alex Ovechkin break Gretzky’s goal records? I wouldn’t. Call me ethnically challenged or whatever the official term is these days, but hockey is a Canadian thing. And, in case you haven’t noticed, a lot of it is up to opinion. Including who we want to see succeed. That’s my answer to it. My theory is, no one believes Crosby is better. They just flat out like the guy. Mark my words, Tavares will be the same thing.
So friends, I shall embrace my position as forum infidel, and go on record to say that Ovechkin is better. The floor is open to push the Crosby case, for those who enjoy exercises in futility.
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Edited by - Alex on 08/21/2008 19:54:36 |
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Guest1603
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Posted - 08/22/2008 : 02:21:21
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Alex I probably shouldn´t have commented on the Russian/Georgian thing but I´ve been a bit on the edge over this thing. The USA are poking the Russian bear with a stick right now and doesn´t seem like having the intention to stop wich has caused the russians to say they may equip the Baltic fleet with nukes (Baltic Sea borders Sweden).
I promise to just comment on Hockey and maybe some sports topics if someone has made them from now on.
You can feel free to make references to anything you like without some annoying guy giving you comments about everything but hockey
I might comment on the Crosby/Ovechkin thingy later but I don´t see it as an exercise in futility, Crosby was injured much of last season.
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Guest8815
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Posted - 08/22/2008 : 11:33:39
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| Alex that was pretty ignorant. There is patriotism, hoping for your Country, than there is what you just did, discrimination, wishing against a person due to their race. And to answer the question if I want Ovechkin to break Gretzky's record? 100% I would, he's a great young kid with bundles of talent and if he breaks the record, he deserves it. And if you want to take that a step further, do I want Crosby to break Gretzky's record? No. The media would rave and rave forever, and start claiming that he is actually the "Great One", not the "Next Great One". |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 08/22/2008 : 12:15:03
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Calm down brother....I do not want to see any Russian, American, Swede, Czech, Somalian, etc, etc, etc, ever hold let alone break any record associated with hockey. With the exception of least talented player in the game. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. Am I right? Probably not.
You're being pretty naive, no matter who (if anyone) breaks certain records they're going to receive monumental press coverage and hype regardless of what country they're from.
Alex- I also think you're being pretty naive if you think that Ovechkins superiority is crystal clear. You're even more naive and foolish to say that "no one can deny"
Really? They play two different styles of hockey, on two different teams, at two different positions. A strong arguement could be made for either player, along with a few others.
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie
Sweden
217 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 02:45:02
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Promised I would only comment on hockey, but it feels like I gotta defend Alex a bit here. If Alex likes Crosby more because he´s Canadian hasn´t anything with discrimination to do, it´s just basic psychology. It´s for the same reason most people root for their home town if they have a decent team than rooting for a team that´s 200 miles away, it´s all about distance. There is a big chance that Alex would like AO more if he played for Montreal.
Now if there would be this black hockey player named Bosby who came from the same town as Crosby who was equally good and you didn´t like him for ethnical reasons that would be discrimination.
And Alex if you write in a "charged" way you will get charged responses who may be a bit off topic. Just the way I see it. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 12:08:48
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Good point IAC. I agree with your assessment.
Alex, I'm Canadian and I really really don't care who owns the records. I watched Gretzky get every one of them too. So be cautious about lumping others in with your narrow opinion. I would love to see Ovechkin get them, he's a great ambassador for the sport and a fun guy to watch (and listen to in interviews) I'd be happy for him. Mind you I don't think it will happen but that's a separate issue. Having said that, if Crosby got it I would be happy for him too.
I think as you get older you gain more of an appreciation for other nations and you begin to realize that we're all people and it just so happens that we speak different languages and carry subtle differences in our apprearance. Like they say, we all bleed red.
As for who is better, it can be common for many younger people to think that whoever is better that year, must difinitively be the best player. This is a symptom of the fact you've only been around for 12 or 14 years, so one or two years is a a big deal....afterall that's about 15% of your life. But when you've been around a little longer, then one year does not make a career. This may or may not be a factor in your decision...I don't know for sure but I think it might.
Of course there are a lot of metrics that you can use to measure someones performance in hockey, but on points alone in the last 3 years, Crosby has played 213 games and has 294 points, and Ovechkin has played 245 games and has 310 points. That's pretty close my friend (with the edge in Crosby's favour based on points per game) Now consider that Crosby is almost 2 full years younger than Ovie and you can improve his case further. But I'm just playing devil's advocate here. Realistically considering how close they are statistically it's very hard to compare because they really play two totally different styles of game.
Anyway, my point through this whole essay (sorry!) is that it's not nearly as black and white as you make it out to be. But I don't think you'll see it my way since you've already closed your mind to "debate" and the possibility of change...which is a shame. |
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BrianC
Top Prospect
Canada
1 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 14:15:45
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Long time listener, first time caller.
I love these debates. And you are right Alex, they cannot produce a "winner", but not because people refuse to bow to an undeniable truth; simply because in these matters there is no such thing as an undeniable truth. The problem is that there is no clear criteria to determine something as subjective as "who's the best". That's what makes it fun. I grew up on Lafluer vs. Bossy vs. Gretzky vs. Lemieux, and am happy that the game now (finally) has two more players worthy of such a debate - it has been too long.
The first thing I am trying to figure out though, Alex, is what are you really trying to determine. You start off stating that AO is the best at this moment in time, regardless of past or future, but then you veer into the "all time" debate by referring to people's reluctance to see AO break Gretzky's records, etc.
Either way, I love the debate, and being the sucker I will weigh in.
As for the best player at this time: what are the criteria? Goals? Points? Team success? Effect on teammates? Obviously statistically AO had the better season last year, although Crosby managed an almost identical PPG despite being out so long with injuries. AO certainly has more on-ice flair and a more engaging personality. But while AO might, from time to time, carry his team (as he did to get the Caps into the playoffs), Crosby is one of those players that makes those around him better. From a team perspective, I personally think that Crosby is the better player, and I would not be surpirsed to see Crosby with more Stanley Cups (leaving aside for now the debate about quality of teammates).
As far as who will be better over their careers, it is obviosuly impossible to tell what time might bring, but Crosby plays a game more suited to long term success. AO is exciting and intense, but over time his game will wear down due to stress and injury (see Bossy, Neely, etc.) likely more so than Crosby. Crosby's game is also more suited to the accumulation of points while AO's game is more about goals.
But it will be exciting to watch. After Gretzky's third year (212 points, 513 career points to date) I was convinced that he was the best ever. Luckily I got to watch him go on to score over 2300 more points. I hope Crosby and Ovechkin both have similar success over the following years - it makes it fun for the fans again. If either of them approach Gretzky's records (long shot at best, but grist for another post), they will deserve and receive my applause - I will appreciate the opportunity to watch such skill again.
We can pick this conversation up in 10 years... |
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Canada - Russia rap 
