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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
 Posted - 05/06/2008 : 15:37:03
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Poll Question:
Who was the most complete player to play in the NHL excluding Bobby Orr?
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Edited by - PainTrain on 05/07/2008 20:55:25
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 15:38:38
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| I left Bobby Orr out because he is the obvious choice. I wanted to see who is the most complete player second to Bobby Orr. Or maybe is first to Bobby Orr, whatever way you want look at it. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 15:44:12
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I think you are missing Mr. Messier on the list. He would be my vote.
Honestly, the way things are going as well, I would say Mr. Iginla might belong on this list as well. He really doesn't do anything poorly. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 16:10:55
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| Thanks Beans I knew I was forgetting somebody. I actually was thinking of Iginla and Lecavalier but I just though I would go with the older players. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 16:25:55
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Gordie Howe would be my pick. I've ranked the guys you listed in the order I think they would be.
1-Gordie Howe
2-Bryan Trottier
3-Mark Messier
4-Ray Bourque
5-Bobby Clark
6-Steve Yzerman
7-Joe Sakic
8-Nick Lidstrom
I would put Sergei Fedorov and Peter Forsberg ahead the last three guys.
There's a ton of old guys that could make a list like this. A few I thought of right away:
Ted Lindsay
Milt Schmidt
Red Kelly
Dave Keon
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2008 : 16:41:56
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sakic, bourque and yzerman all hard to chose between,, ray bourque was purly amazing much like nick lidstrom is,, iginla wouldn;t be a bad player to add to this list aswell but willus i think said it and i have to put all my wieght behind sergei federov!! this guy is a leader a good checker fast as they get even at 38 and over the course of his career he has even played D to help the team out of injury;s not just this year he played d in detroit and in columbus too.. they guy does everything as best you can ask a player to do,, and hes russian no offense to russians but how many have had the long consistant career he has put together??
Pasty |
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Guest6595
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 16:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
Who was the most complete player to play in the NHL excluding Bobby Orr?
How about Brind'Amour? Carboneau? Gainey?
Of the Europeans Fetisov, Federov, Aflie. |
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Guest7418
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Posted - 05/06/2008 : 17:36:53
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All-around? Gordie.. I can't think of anyone else.
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 05:49:19
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This is a very tough one, but great one . . . I am going to have to give it more thought. Potential candidates missing from your list I would put right up there: Beliveau, Phil Esposito, Neely, Forsberg, Mario Lemieux, and currently Iginla, and a shoo-in for the future, Ovechkin.
Orr would have to be #1 for me, yeah . . . overlooking length of career and injuries, I'd have to go with Forsberg at number two. Impeccable in all areas of the game - offense, defence, penalty killing, power play, set-up man, scorer, dominating physical presence, grinder, and leader.
Iginla would be my number three, although a few more years would have to pass perhaps before that position is cemented.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest0904
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Posted - 05/07/2008 : 14:36:16
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| Wendel Clark |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 15:13:34
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Good Poll Paintrain! Wow, how tough is this!?! No doubt we're forgetting more than a few, but the sampling above is great. Of course I'd throw Iginla, Forsberg or Sundin on the list but I can appreciate you're choosing retired players (or damn near retired anyway - Sakic)
Clarke had the heart of a lion and it showed in all aspects of his game but not sure if I'd put him at the top....and I didn't really get to see Howe play in his prime, but I've heard that he did it all. So mid-career Messier or Trottier was probably it for me.
Willus I'm curious about you eluding to Fedorov as being complete...he wasn't exactly known for putting in a lot of effort...unless he was on a breakaway! Don't get me wrong. he was amazing, but "complete player" wasn't really in his scouting report.  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 15:33:40
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Leigh, I would have to disagree with you on Fedorov. Although Willus and I have very different views on hockey, this is one thing I can agree with. Sergei Fedorov, in his prime (really until he went to Anaheim) was the most complete hockey player in hockey.
Forsberg I alway found to be too much of a dive artist for me. He was amazingly strong with the puck but would get knocked over by a gust on wind without it. That always bothered me and might cloud my judgement of him.
Fedorov however, top shelf everywhere on the ice. A very rare thing with most Russian players. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 15:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Leigh, I would have to disagree with you on Fedorov. Although Willus and I have very different views on hockey, this is one thing I can agree with. Sergei Fedorov, in his prime (really until he went to Anaheim) was the most complete hockey player in hockey.
Forsberg I alway found to be too much of a dive artist for me. He was amazingly strong with the puck but would get knocked over by a gust on wind without it. That always bothered me and might cloud my judgement of him.
Fedorov however, top shelf everywhere on the ice. A very rare thing with most Russian players.
exactly fedorov was never your prototype russian hockey player i really dont think there ever has been somone as productive offensivly and deffensivly as ferdorov,,, and like a said before god he was fast!
Pasty |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 16:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Willus I'm curious about you eluding to Fedorov as being complete...he wasn't exactly known for putting in a lot of effort...unless he was on a breakaway! Don't get me wrong. he was amazing, but "complete player" wasn't really in his scouting report.
Are you thinking of Bure instead of Fedorov maybe?
Fedorov is the guy who won the Selke and Hart in the same season. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 16:46:45
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Willus I'm curious about you eluding to Fedorov as being complete...he wasn't exactly known for putting in a lot of effort...unless he was on a breakaway! Don't get me wrong. he was amazing, but "complete player" wasn't really in his scouting report.
Are you thinking of Bure instead of Fedorov maybe?
Fedorov is the guy who won the Selke and Hart in the same season.
no no, definitely not thinking of Bure. And let me make it clear, I always liked Fedorov for his offensive abilities and his flare - no doubt, a great hockey player. But strangely I did not view him the same way as the 3 of you obviously did. Yes he had defensive ability, and like Willus has stated he won the Selke, but we are talking aobut "Complete" player, which to me means other things like, physical strength, hitting etc. Perhaps he had a few years of completeness but I certainly wouldn't put him even close to the other guys we're talking about here. Or maybe I've been jaded by some of his later years where he lost his edge. I'll give it some more thought.
BTW, this means that Sakic and Yzerman are not on my ultimate list. They are missing the grit, and physical strength. Oh that's got to stir the pot a bit eh! |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2008 : 17:15:55
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| Since there seems to be a debate going with Federov and Forsberg I decided to throw them in the Poll. By the way I really like this argument keep it up boys! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 07:52:00
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Federov - very, very close to being on my list, but for me he was short in two areas - physical presence, and leadership. During his heyday, he wasn't really looked at as a leader in the room . . . I don't know if that was because he was Russian, or because of the obvious strong leadership which already existed within the Wings dressing room (see: Yzerman), but there it is as I see it.
Beans - I hear ya, and I know the diving charge has been levelled many times against Forsberg. But in reality, I really have never seen a lot of evidence of it, and think it is a manufactured issue, because he's a Swede. I think hockey is past the days of blatant labelling of non-Canadians, but I have to think that is the cause. I watched a lot of Denver games back in the day, they were one of my favourite teams, and all I saw was Forsberg constantly getting hacked, checked from behind and hooked. Because he was so damn strong on the puck, Forsberg would often have to literally be brought down, as he never stopped skating under this kind of abuse.
Nah, I'm sticking with my Forsberg pick at #2 for now.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest4912
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Posted - 05/08/2008 : 08:57:46
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| how can you guys forget about Eric Lindros, just beacuse the later portion of his career was afected by injury. he was still one of the greats. he could pass, score, shoot, good play maker, good play finisher, and tough as hell he would go out and crank four guys in 6 seconds. always willing to scrap, mcsolrley, kasperitis, stevens and the list goes on. never losing either. yes scott stevens layed him out but before that he uppercutted and right hooked his way to demolishing steavens in a fight in the playoffs. some of the nicest goals too. also getting a hundred pionts in the dead puck era. he was feard by all on the opposing team when he was on the ice. Eric Lindros gets my vote |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 09:39:13
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| 4912 I completely agree. Lindros was definitely one of the most complete players. I think he gets overlooked for a lot of things because of the controversy surrounding his entry into the league (wrongly of course). The only thing missing from his game was the ability to keep his head up (Kasperitis, Stevens etc.) His career would have been beyond spectacular if he did. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 21:02:49
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I just looked at Alex's Blog for a second now, got tired  , and skipped to the quote at the bottom:
"There are two types of forwards. Scorers and bangers. Scorers score and bangers bang." – Ken Dryden
This might be something to think about for this poll. Presumably Dryden would agree that if a player can both score and bang, that player would be pretty "complete".
Dryden's quote is of course a generalization, but if you use it as a guideline for at least two of the key aspects of a "complete" player, then I think you have to knock out some of the less physical players on the list. Sakic for instance. I love him, but I certainly wouldn't call him a banger.
One way of approaching this question is to ask "is there a general part of the game that the player didn't really do?". Take Yzerman for instance. What didn't he do? Well, defensive play was a problem at first, but he got much better at that as his career progressed (very much to his credit). But, like Sakic, he too certainly was not a "banger".
To me the three main forwards on the list who scored, were good playmakers, banged a lot and played well defensively - guys who you wouldn't hesitate to put out in any situation whatsoever during a game are Howe, Messier and Trottier. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 04:15:53
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A couple of quick comments:
Lindros - he's on my list too, just not top three. He's slightly lacking in, let's call it "ice-awareness".
Messier - he's probably in my top ten, but for pure stick handling talent and finesse he's a bit behind a few of the others here (I know, I know, he's 2nd all-time, etc etc - but that's the way I see it).
Trottier - he's prolly top ten too - but again lacking in a category when compared to the others, this time physicality/toughness. He was no pushover, nosiree - but compare him to others, and for me, he slips down the list.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 06:23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
A couple of quick comments:
Lindros - he's on my list too, just not top three. He's slightly lacking in, let's call it "ice-awareness".
Messier - he's probably in my top ten, but for pure stick handling talent and finesse he's a bit behind a few of the others here (I know, I know, he's 2nd all-time, etc etc - but that's the way I see it).
Trottier - he's prolly top ten too - but again lacking in a category when compared to the others, this time physicality/toughness. He was no pushover, nosiree - but compare him to others, and for me, he slips down the list.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Completely disagree on Trottier not being a physical player. He was a punishing hitter. Played the body all the time. Fought in the corners. He did it all. He's about a complete a player as I can think of. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 06:39:23
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Slozo - I think you're right about Messier, Trottier being behind in the pure talent category. Clarke too actually. Maybe even Howe (though I don't know having not actully watched him play in his prime). But the great thing about this poll is that a less talented guy might very well be qualified for the title of most "complete" player ever.
In my opinion, where Messier and Trottier fall behind in the "pure skill" categories, they make up for, and more, in the tougness, banging, corner-work, intimidation and other categories of the "non-skill" game.
But I admit that a valid argument can be made that a defenseman who plays both well defensively and offensively (Bourque, Lidstrom and of course, Orr, for example) are the most complete players around. But rather than thinking too much about that point, I prefer just to leave defencemen out of this (that's why I said "forwards" in my last post).
Edit - Willus is right about Trottier - the guy was VERY tough and strong - very good defensively - better than Sakic and Yzerman in those categories |
Edited by - andyhack on 05/09/2008 06:44:01 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 09:03:33
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For the record I don't consider Lidstrom to be a complete player. Physicality is almost completely absent in his game.
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Guest1239
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:02:50
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
For the record I don't consider Lidstrom to be a complete player. Physicality is almost completely absent in his game.
agreed if there is a flaw to liddy's game its his physical absence,, but i think a guy like shane doan belongs on this list, name me something mr doan doesn;t excell at?
Pasty |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2008 : 16:48:28
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| Maurice Richard ... Jarome Iginla or Peter Forsberg |
Edited by - Axey on 05/09/2008 16:49:16 |
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Guest6400
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Posted - 05/09/2008 : 18:36:44
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| Gordie Howe would be No 1 but others from the wings of that time like Ted Lindsay or Alex Delvechio for example merit consideration, Jean Beliveau would be another or in later times Bobby Clarke or a former Bruin Cam Neely would fit the mould considering the criteria |
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Datsyuk 1
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
333 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2008 : 12:35:48
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If Iginla was on the list he would get my vote 100%. Every night he fights threw grinders, backchecks hard and also he can score very consistenly. He has to be at least top 5 for most complete ever. even though I'm haven't seen like all of those guys on the list play cause I'm 13 but Iginla still gets my vote.
Go Flyers Go! |
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Topic |
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Who was the most complete player? 
