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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
 Posted - 10/16/2008 : 23:08:12
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Poll Question:
Does Chris Osgood belong in the Hall of Fame? And if so, would he be a first year ballot?
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Edited by - willus3 on 10/18/2008 17:18:00
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2008 : 08:21:25
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| I think he definitely belongs in the Hall. Top 15 all time in wins and will probably be in the top 10 by career's end. Also top 10 in playoff shutouts, has 3 rings (2 as a starter). Maybe he won't get in first ballot but the guy definitely deserves recognition. |
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Guest4094
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Posted - 10/18/2008 : 11:23:52
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| No, this guy was brutal throughout his career. He is overrated and always had a team in front of him. |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 11:55:47
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Butal throughout his career? This guy never once had an under 500 season and has 3 rings I think he deserves to eventually get into the Hall of Fame but he probably wont his first year of eligability.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Guest0386
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Posted - 10/18/2008 : 11:56:59
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| you have got to be kidding with this question, Osgood was only succesful in both stints in Detroit because of the teams in front of him. Look at his play with average teams in the Islanders and Blues, he just plain sucked, not HOF material. Raycroft could have looked good in detroit too! Maybe he should go to the HOF! How about Manny Legace he was stellar in Detroit too! How about every goalie who played in Detroit on the cup winning teams. Mike Vernon and Domonic Hasek are the only goalies from Detroit worth a nod to the HOF |
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Guest0520
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Posted - 10/18/2008 : 16:20:04
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| Maybe if his Numbers increase. I agree that Vernon and Hasek(hate him) belong there . He however is certainly not first ballot. |
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Leafsfan_94
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1070 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 17:22:54
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i dont know about the HOF but im not agreeing with some of the stuff im reading. yes detroit is a great offensive/defensive team but osgood plays great 90% of the time. he has bad games,but dont go saying the only reason he gets the stats is because of him team.
Leafsfan_94
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 19:06:04
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Let's see now of the top 10 winningest goaltenders of all time:
Patrick Roy, 551 (HOF)
Martin Brodeur, 538 (Future HOF)
Ed Belfour, 484 (Future HOF)
Curtis Joseph, 449 (Future HOF)
Terry Sawchuk, 447 (HOF)
Jacques Plante, 437 (HOF)
Tony Esposito, 423 (HOF)
Glenn Hall, 407 (HOF)
Grant Fuhr, 403 (HOF)
Dominik Hasek, 389 (Future HOF)
Ok now Chris Osgood has 365 wins. Assuming he reaches 400-410 by this seasons end and plays 3-4 more years. If he stays the Red wings starter for 3 more years with no injuries, he could very well reach 500 wins. Stats-wise, this puts him in a class with the greats. I know all you skeptics out there will say he's always had a team in front of him, but stats are stats, and third all time in wins (assuming the above) will put him in the hall, no question.
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Leafsfan_94
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1070 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 19:18:48
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very good, i like how you backed up your statement
quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Let's see now of the top 10 winningest goaltenders of all time:
Patrick Roy, 551 (HOF)
Martin Brodeur, 538 (Future HOF)
Ed Belfour, 484 (Future HOF)
Curtis Joseph, 449 (Future HOF)
Terry Sawchuk, 447 (HOF)
Jacques Plante, 437 (HOF)
Tony Esposito, 423 (HOF)
Glenn Hall, 407 (HOF)
Grant Fuhr, 403 (HOF)
Dominik Hasek, 389 (Future HOF)
Ok now Chris Osgood has 365 wins. Assuming he reaches 400-410 by this seasons end and plays 3-4 more years. If he stays the Red wings starter for 3 more years with no injuries, he could very well reach 500 wins. Stats-wise, this puts him in a class with the greats. I know all you skeptics out there will say he's always had a team in front of him, but stats are stats, and third all time in wins (assuming the above) will put him in the hall, no question.
Leafsfan_94
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Guest4452
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Posted - 10/18/2008 : 19:32:51
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Let's see now of the top 10 winningest goaltenders of all time:
Patrick Roy, 551 (HOF)
Martin Brodeur, 538 (Future HOF)
Ed Belfour, 484 (Future HOF)
Curtis Joseph, 449 (Future HOF)
Terry Sawchuk, 447 (HOF)
Jacques Plante, 437 (HOF)
Tony Esposito, 423 (HOF)
Glenn Hall, 407 (HOF)
Grant Fuhr, 403 (HOF)
Dominik Hasek, 389 (Future HOF)
Ok now Chris Osgood has 365 wins. Assuming he reaches 400-410 by this seasons end and plays 3-4 more years. If he stays the Red wings starter for 3 more years with no injuries, he could very well reach 500 wins. Stats-wise, this puts him in a class with the greats. I know all you skeptics out there will say he's always had a team in front of him, but stats are stats, and third all time in wins (assuming the above) will put him in the hall, no question.
Regarding the "had a good team in front of him argument" so you are telling me none of the goalies on the above list that are already in the HOF had good teams in front of them?
The Detroit run since the 1990s has had several goalies "behind" it and they did not do well...Cheveldae, Joseph, Legace, Ranford, even Osgood himself got run out of town once....so it takes more than having a good team in front to be a good goalie and win over 400 games. |
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 20:30:06
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Regarding the "had a good team in front of him argument" so you are telling me none of the goalies on the above list that are already in the HOF had good teams in front of them?
The Detroit run since the 1990s has had several goalies "behind" it and they did not do well...Cheveldae, Joseph, Legace, Ranford, even Osgood himself got run out of town once....so it takes more than having a good team in front to be a good goalie and win over 400 games.
[/quote]
Yes, that's part of my point. I'm just referring to the people who say he always had a good team in front of him. You could argue that for a lot of goalies. |
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Leafsfan_94
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1070 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2008 : 21:02:34
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i agree st.patrick is in the HOF and he is called the best goalie of all time. look at the team he has infron of him. so osgood deserves to be in the HOF hust as much as roy does.
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4452
[quote]Originally posted by pokermatt12
Let's see now of the top 10 winningest goaltenders of all time:
Patrick Roy, 551 (HOF)
Martin Brodeur, 538 (Future HOF)
Ed Belfour, 484 (Future HOF)
Curtis Joseph, 449 (Future HOF)
Terry Sawchuk, 447 (HOF)
Jacques Plante, 437 (HOF)
Tony Esposito, 423 (HOF)
Glenn Hall, 407 (HOF)
Grant Fuhr, 403 (HOF)
Dominik Hasek, 389 (Future HOF)
Regarding the "had a good team in front of him argument" so you are telling me none of the goalies on the above list that are already in the HOF had good teams in front of them?
The Detroit run since the 1990s has had several goalies "behind" it and they did not do well...Cheveldae, Joseph, Legace, Ranford, even Osgood himself got run out of town once....so it takes more than having a good team in front to be a good goalie and win over 400 games.
Leafsfan_94
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Guest4452
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Posted - 10/18/2008 : 22:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Regarding the "had a good team in front of him argument" so you are telling me none of the goalies on the above list that are already in the HOF had good teams in front of them?
The Detroit run since the 1990s has had several goalies "behind" it and they did not do well...Cheveldae, Joseph, Legace, Ranford, even Osgood himself got run out of town once....so it takes more than having a good team in front to be a good goalie and win over 400 games.
Yes, that's part of my point. I'm just referring to the people who say he always had a good team in front of him. You could argue that for a lot of goalies.
[/quote]
I agree. If you got the impression I was countering towards you with my comments, I was not, I was just using your list to support my points. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 06:57:02
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| If your basis is for wins only then that does have a lot to do with the team in front of him, he played for a few presidents cup trophy teams with Detroit - but the goalies listed in the top ten all have some individual hardware or nominations for individual awards and exceptional career stats other than wins. Joseph is the exception and will not get in the hall either. Difference between Joseph and Osgood - Joseph in his prime could carry an average team deep in the playoffs (Leafs, Oilers, Blues). Osgood could not do the same on the island or for the blues but he has a couple of cups thanks to the wings not himself. |
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Guest9378
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Posted - 10/19/2008 : 07:03:42
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| his numbers are hall of fame for sure. if mike richter oe ed belfour get into the hall osgood or osbad should get in |
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hockster
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
437 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 07:32:20
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No way
Hes been carried by his team
He is an average goaltender
He doesnt deserve any rings unless hes backing someone up
I don't bring the controversey it comes to me.
Iginla for 2010 team captain!!! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 10:12:12
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This is a perfect example of someone taking a stat and skewing the results. Sure, you can not argue the specific numbers that Osgood has, but you need to qualify them as well. Let me explain:
Look at wins, and Osgood at 15th all time and still climbing which is impressive. There is no doubt that most of us can concede the fact that he has played mostly with solid hockey teams. Think about this: Osgood's "stats" (GAA, save percentage, shots/game, etc) were almost exactly the same for games he played with Detroit compared to the games he played with NYI or St. Louis. However, his win % with Detroit is over 57% while his win % with the other teams he played for is less than 47%. Playing on a better team gave Osgood more wins. That's simple.
Let's take a second and compare a couple of other goalies to Osgood. I chose Curtis Joseph (as someone on here said he would not be in the Hall) and Patrick Roy (who may consider the best or one of the best of all time).
All three are surprisingly close statistically. Osgood's career save % is .910, both Roy and Joseph are at .909. Their GAA are withen .25 of each other. So, specifically talking about statistics, they are very close. However, one thing that no one has talked about is shots per game. Osgood's career average shots per game is a little less than 26/game. Roy was over 28 and Joseph is over 29. What does this mean??? Both Roy and Joseph were as productive as Osgood facing more shots. In fact, Roy and Joseph has both faced more than 10,000 shots more than Osgood. That's the equivelant of 5 seasons worth of shots.
And my final thought on this is that with the exception of the past 3 season, both Roy and Joseph were #1 goalies handling the bulk of the load for their respective teams. Osgood has not. Both Roy and Joseph played an average of 58 and 56 games a season respectively. Osgood has averaged 44.
So, what I am saying that just throwing stats down do not show the true picture. I am not saying that Osgood does not belong in the HOF, I am simply saying that when you look at stat comparing them to other players as well as digging a little deeper into them, the true picture presents itself.
And to answer the question, no, I don't think Osgood belongs in the Hall. For the reasons I stated above. He has basically been a back up for 1/2 of his career and has had the benefit of playing 85% of his career with one of the top 5 teams in the league. Other goalies produced as well or better playing on worse teams, playing more games, and facing more shots.
I wouldn't put Osgood as a top 5 goalie in the league today let alone a HOFer. |
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Guest4581
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Posted - 10/19/2008 : 11:24:05
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| i voted vs osgoode making hall just on basis of great players making hall for example best of era not soley relying on stats . When i think of osgoode i think of a steady goaltendender in the vain of vernon not like hasek roy broduer sawchuck, even fuhr goalies that just amazed you with their saves. Having said that osgoode deserves some credit and beans not to disagree with you but save percentage takes into account shots. So if brodeur had 10000 shots and osgoode had 10000 shots the higher save percentage would make more saves. Sometimes goalies are there own worst enemie ie joseph kicked out a lot of rebounds therfore a lot of shots. Broduer defence and forwards played tight man to man combined with butterfly you could only score up top on him and most goals are scored bottom of net. Detroit had grt teams didnt win cup hasek joseph etc as with other teams any goalie who plays on bad tem wont have as many wins joseph (who i like) won with good teams did ok with bad teams what im saying is agoalie is pt of a team an integral pt but u can only judge him on his performace not teams for wahtever reason not just detroit team he play better their. Brodeur plays 60 70 80 games a year works for him there is benefits and disadvatages you can win more games in yr just simply by playing more but your quality or save percentage could suffer. plus injuries fatique etc. Osgoode didnt control his playing time I beleive because he isnt in the same league as joseph fuhr brodeur etc but it is hard to ignore his numbers. I beleive he is underrated he is solid not spectatcular and makes the saves he has to and dosent let in bad goals in a word conssitent he also won cups hasek and joseh couldnt get out ist rd with same tm. Roy had that brain frt that cost colorado a cup. I dont know but he deserves some respect he made saves 910 save percentage and if you wont vote him in because he isnt spectactular like roy hasek broduer than you surely coulnt have voted for garntner |
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Guest4581
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Posted - 10/19/2008 : 11:33:28
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| i voted vs osgoode making hall just on basis of great players making hall for example best of era not soley relying on stats . When i think of osgoode i think of a steady goaltendender in the vain of vernon not like hasek roy broduer sawchuck, even fuhr goalies that just amazed you with their saves. Having said that osgoode deserves some credit and beans not to disagree with you but save percentage takes into account shots. So if brodeur had 10000 shots and osgoode had 10000 shots the higher save percentage would make more saves. Sometimes goalies are there own worst enemie ie joseph kicked out a lot of rebounds therfore a lot of shots. Broduer defence and forwards played tight man to man combined with butterfly you could only score up top on him and most goals are scored bottom of net. Detroit had grt teams didnt win cup hasek joseph etc as with other teams any goalie who plays on bad tem wont have as many wins joseph (who i like) won with good teams did ok with bad teams what im saying is agoalie is pt of a team an integral pt but u can only judge him on his performace not teams for whatever reason not just detroit team he played better in detroit and st louis and islander were terrible when did joseph play for teams that bad or bodeur or hasek. Brodeur plays 60 70 80 games a year works for him there is benefits and disadvatages you can win more games in yr just simply by playing more but your quality or save percentage could suffer. plus injuries fatique etc. Osgoode didnt control his playing time I beleive because he isnt in the same league as joseph fuhr brodeur etc but it is hard to ignore his numbers. I beleive he is underrated he is solid not spectatcular and makes the saves he has to and dosent let in bad goals in a word consitent he also won cups hasek and joseh couldnt get out ist rd with same tm. Roy had that brain frt that cost colorado a cup. I dont know but he deserves some respect he made saves 910 save percentage and if you wont vote him in because he isnt spectactular like roy hasek broduer than you surely coulnt have voted for garntner |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 12:15:43
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As a die hard wings fan, I have to say that Osgoode probably does not get into the Hall.
Yes he may be 15th all time in wins, but like people have said, the majority of those wins were a result of the defensively sound system that Detroit plays.
Secondly, I think you have to look at more than just wins.
Guys like Cujo, Brodeur, Roy, and Hasek were dominant during their years. Can anyone realistically say that Osgoode was dominant?
If I was chosen to make a list of goalies to put in net, Osgoode probably wouldn't make my list.
Go Wings Go! |
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 12:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So, what I am saying that just throwing stats down do not show the true picture. I am not saying that Osgood does not belong in the HOF, I am simply saying that when you look at stat comparing them to other players as well as digging a little deeper into them, the true picture presents itself.
And to answer the question, no, I don't think Osgood belongs in the Hall. For the reasons I stated above. He has basically been a back up for 1/2 of his career and has had the benefit of playing 85% of his career with one of the top 5 teams in the league. Other goalies produced as well or better playing on worse teams, playing more games, and facing more shots.
I wouldn't put Osgood as a top 5 goalie in the league today let alone a HOFer.
So Beans, just to clarify, which one is it?
Another thing. You mentioned that Osgood has averaged 44 games per season compared to the 56-58 per season that both Joseph and Roy averaged. Is that not a great feat in itself as to what he has accomplished with limited games?
I am not saying that Osgood is a top 5 goaltender in the league, but you can't fault a guy for winning just beause he has a good team in front of him. I think that's a little unfair. I think when his time comes, he get's in. Take a look at Roy's team in 00-01 to name a few players:
Sakic
Forsberg
Hejduk
Tanguay
Drury
Foote
Bourque
Blake
Roy won the Conn Smythe that year, but he had the team in front of him to do it. So did Osgood this year. He didn't start as starter, but most goalies wouldn't with Hasek as your competetion. |
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hkalirah
PickupHockey Pro
382 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 13:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So, what I am saying that just throwing stats down do not show the true picture. I am not saying that Osgood does not belong in the HOF, I am simply saying that when you look at stat comparing them to other players as well as digging a little deeper into them, the true picture presents itself.
And to answer the question, no, I don't think Osgood belongs in the Hall. For the reasons I stated above. He has basically been a back up for 1/2 of his career and has had the benefit of playing 85% of his career with one of the top 5 teams in the league. Other goalies produced as well or better playing on worse teams, playing more games, and facing more shots.
I wouldn't put Osgood as a top 5 goalie in the league today let alone a HOFer.
So Beans, just to clarify, which one is it?
Another thing. You mentioned that Osgood has averaged 44 games per season compared to the 56-58 per season that both Joseph and Roy averaged. Is that not a great feat in itself as to what he has accomplished with limited games?
I am not saying that Osgood is a top 5 goaltender in the league, but you can't fault a guy for winning just beause he has a good team in front of him. I think that's a little unfair. I think when his time comes, he get's in. Take a look at Roy's team in 00-01 to name a few players:
Sakic
Forsberg
Hejduk
Tanguay
Drury
Foote
Bourque
Blake
Roy won the Conn Smythe that year, but he had the team in front of him to do it. So did Osgood this year. He didn't start as starter, but most goalies wouldn't with Hasek as your competetion.
Yes, but Roy was great even before the 00-01 season.
Don't get me wrong, Osgoode is a solid goalie, I just don't think he's Hall-worthy. Otherwise they'll have to open the hall to guys like Mike Vernon, and Andy Moog.
Go Wings Go! |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 13:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
So, what I am saying that just throwing stats down do not show the true picture. I am not saying that Osgood does not belong in the HOF, I am simply saying that when you look at stat comparing them to other players as well as digging a little deeper into them, the true picture presents itself.
And to answer the question, no, I don't think Osgood belongs in the Hall. For the reasons I stated above. He has basically been a back up for 1/2 of his career and has had the benefit of playing 85% of his career with one of the top 5 teams in the league. Other goalies produced as well or better playing on worse teams, playing more games, and facing more shots.
I wouldn't put Osgood as a top 5 goalie in the league today let alone a HOFer.
So Beans, just to clarify, which one is it?
Another thing. You mentioned that Osgood has averaged 44 games per season compared to the 56-58 per season that both Joseph and Roy averaged. Is that not a great feat in itself as to what he has accomplished with limited games?
I am not saying that Osgood is a top 5 goaltender in the league, but you can't fault a guy for winning just beause he has a good team in front of him. I think that's a little unfair. I think when his time comes, he get's in. Take a look at Roy's team in 00-01 to name a few players:
Sakic
Forsberg
Hejduk
Tanguay
Drury
Foote
Bourque
Blake
Roy won the Conn Smythe that year, but he had the team in front of him to do it. So did Osgood this year. He didn't start as starter, but most goalies wouldn't with Hasek as your competetion.
You are correct , no doubt Colorado had an excellent team that year, stacked like the Red Wings for 3 of their last 4 cups. Last year Osgood played great in the playoffs and the Wings won the cup because they had the best team in the NHL.
To compare Osgood to Roy is a bit much to say the least. If you could remember to 1986, Roy won the cup for the Habs. Sure they had a good team but were playing a better team in the Flames that year. Roy as a rookie won that series for the Habs. Even to reference when he won the Conn Smyth with the Aves is not fair - Roy stole two games in that series. Osgood didn't steal or win any games for the Wings, the Wings dominated, they were that good.
Osgood is and always will be the goalie who is good, but only as good as the team he his playing for. He could even win another cup this year with the wings but so could any other goalie who plays for the wings. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 14:11:51
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What I was trying to say was that my point behind doing the comparison between Roy, Joseph, and Osgood was not to say if he should be in or not. My point was to say that when you look at stats, you can't pick some stats and not others and that you have to look at more than one stat.
And the fact that he is 15th all time in wins with limited starts is irrelevant based on the Detroit teams he played on. Fact is if he had the same number of games playing not on Detroit, his wins would have been ess. If he would not have played for Detroit, I think it's fair to assume he would have had a career win % the same as he had with NYI and St. Louis. That being said, he would have won 313 of his starts, putting him behind Sean Burke. Does Sean Burke belong in the Hall of Fame??? I don't think so.
Take Osgood off of Detroit and he is less than a .500 goalie.
And sure, the team that won the Cup with Roy in Colorado was excellet, but I don't think you can argue that his Conn Smythe was Deserved.
I think as other people have posted, you could put most any other average goalie in net for Detroit in place of Osgood and they are no worse off.
I hate to say it, because I do like Osgood as a goalie, but he is just an above average goalie. No Hall of Famer. |
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2008 : 17:56:03
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Ok I completely hear what you say in regards to "if he would have been on another team he would have done worse." Well I think it's unfair to assume anything. The Hall of Fame committee won't pick players based on what could have happened if he were to be on a different team. There is no scientific explanation to determine how many wins he would have gotten on an otherwise mediocre or bad team.
What we do know is that Osgood can win. Even on NYI and St. Louis, Osgood had a winning record.
All i'm saying is that i don't think one of the criteria on the Hall of Fame committee is "how many wins would he have gotten on THIS team." I think if he reaches 3rd all time in wins like he's on pace to do, that cannot be overlooked, no matter what team he played for. In my opinion I agree on any other team he would probably not be as successful, but that's just my opinion. Mark my word, if he does in fact reach third all time in wins he will be in the Hall. Only time will tell, though. |
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Guest5372
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Posted - 10/20/2008 : 08:28:24
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Let's see now of the top 10 winningest goaltenders of all time:
Patrick Roy, 551 (HOF)
Martin Brodeur, 538 (Future HOF)
Ed Belfour, 484 (Future HOF)
Curtis Joseph, 449 (Future HOF)
Terry Sawchuk, 447 (HOF)
Jacques Plante, 437 (HOF)
Tony Esposito, 423 (HOF)
Glenn Hall, 407 (HOF)
Grant Fuhr, 403 (HOF)
Dominik Hasek, 389 (Future HOF)
Something these goalies have that Osgood doesn't. Loads of individual awards. How many Jennings, Vezinas, Hart and Conn Smythe for each of these individuals to Osgoode's? Though his wins will have the Hall look at him, his lack of individual achievement will keep him out. Espescially important (for a goalie) are the Veniza, Hart and Conn Smythe.
I think CuJo might not be assured a spot in the Hall either due to his limited hardware. |
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Guest8909
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Posted - 10/20/2008 : 08:40:35
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Osgood deserves to be in the HOF. He will have over 400 wins by the time he retires, REGARDLESS of how he got them.
If Patrick Roy, who barely broke the 60 games played mark each season and only has one 40 win season playing for teams like Colorado and Montreal and is considered the "best goalie ever" ahead of a guy like Brodeur who plays 75+games a year and wins 40+ of those a year for most of his career and exhibits class and grace unlike Roy, then Osgood should be in the HOF.
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 09:31:55
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| Brodeur is a lot of things...an example of class and grace he is not... |
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99pickles
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
671 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 10:49:06
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Do I personally think Osgood should ever get into the Hall...no. Will he get in? That's a different question altogether...
Well, the committee looks at 2 things predominately: Cup rings and personal hardware. He has the rings, but will they overlook the lack of hardware in place of his high placement on a couple of career stats lists? I wonder....
I view him as an on-the-bubble consideration, but it will be years down the road during a year with thin candidacy that he will slip in there, if at all.
It is certainly one of those interesting discussions... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 11:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by pokermatt12
Ok I completely hear what you say in regards to "if he would have been on another team he would have done worse." Well I think it's unfair to assume anything. The Hall of Fame committee won't pick players based on what could have happened if he were to be on a different team. There is no scientific explanation to determine how many wins he would have gotten on an otherwise mediocre or bad team.
What we do know is that Osgood can win. Even on NYI and St. Louis, Osgood had a winning record.
All i'm saying is that i don't think one of the criteria on the Hall of Fame committee is "how many wins would he have gotten on THIS team." I think if he reaches 3rd all time in wins like he's on pace to do, that cannot be overlooked, no matter what team he played for. In my opinion I agree on any other team he would probably not be as successful, but that's just my opinion. Mark my word, if he does in fact reach third all time in wins he will be in the Hall. Only time will tell, though.
See, this is where you are incorrect. Osgood did not have a winning record away from Detroit. His win percentage with NYI and St. Louis was 47%. He did not win more than 1/2 of his games.
And I definately think that the HOF considers things like the strength of a team. Consider Andy Moog. He is 13th on the wins list with 372. He posted solid numbers through out his career, but with very solid teams. He played for the Oilers and Bruins through the 80's, then Minnesota and Dallas in the 90's. However, he (like Osgood) played only around 40 games a year on average and was a back up for about 1/2 of his career. He also has 4 Cup Rings.
Problem is, just like with Osgood, any other above average goalie would have won on those teams.
If Osgood deserves to be in, shouldn't Moog, Burke, and Billy Smith be there as well???
Not in my eyes. |
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Guest5372
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Posted - 10/20/2008 : 13:12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8909
Osgood deserves to be in the HOF. He will have over 400 wins by the time he retires, REGARDLESS of how he got them.
If Patrick Roy, who barely broke the 60 games played mark each season and only has one 40 win season playing for teams like Colorado and Montreal and is considered the "best goalie ever" ahead of a guy like Brodeur who plays 75+games a year and wins 40+ of those a year for most of his career and exhibits class and grace unlike Roy, then Osgood should be in the HOF.
Patrick Roy can't here you complaining on behalf of Osgood because he can't hear you since he has a Conn Smythe trophy in each ear, along with them Stanley Cups. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2008 : 15:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
See, this is where you are incorrect. Osgood did not have a winning record away from Detroit. His win percentage with NYI and St. Louis was 47%. He did not win more than 1/2 of his games.
And I definately think that the HOF considers things like the strength of a team. Consider Andy Moog. He is 13th on the wins list with 372. He posted solid numbers through out his career, but with very solid teams. He played for the Oilers and Bruins through the 80's, then Minnesota and Dallas in the 90's. However, he (like Osgood) played only around 40 games a year on average and was a back up for about 1/2 of his career. He also has 4 Cup Rings.
Problem is, just like with Osgood, any other above average goalie would have won on those teams.
If Osgood deserves to be in, shouldn't Moog, Burke, and Billy Smith be there as well???
Not in my eyes.
Beans, excellent post I was thinking about Moog and Smith as well with there terrifc seasons and cup wins respectively. Two perfect examples of goalies who were successful because of the teams they played for at the time. And to be truthful - can't really say Osgood was a good as either of them. Maybe? |
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Guest6408
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Posted - 10/20/2008 : 17:56:29
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still not taking into account save percentage and bean you didnt answer if you voted in mike gartner cause if you take garnter than you take vernon and osgoode. Again he won if any other goalie would have won how did detroit fare without him and he was starting goalie last yr and at least one other cup. And the goalie is part of the team that wins cups obviosly detroit braintrust thought he had something to offer as they brought him back and cujo played better with bad teams than he did with good teams
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Guest6408
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Posted - 10/20/2008 : 17:58:30
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[quote]Originally posted by Guest0386
you have got to be kidding with this question, Osgood was only succesful in both stints in Detroit because of the teams in front of him. Look at his play with average teams in the Islanders and Blues, he just plain sucked, not HOF material. Raycroft could have looked good in detroit too! Maybe he should go to the HOF! How about Manny Legace he was stellar in Detroit too! How about every goalie who played in Detroit on the cup winning teams. Mike Vernon and Domonic Hasek are the only goalies from Detroit worth a nod to the HOF
[/average teams the blues and islanders sucked when he played for thm |
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Guest9796
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Posted - 10/21/2008 : 13:05:30
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| How can you not put him in eventually? 3 Rings is pretty impressive and there are goalies in the Hall with much worse stats than his. As for the comment about his stints with St. Louis and the Islanders, those teams sucked and Brodeur would have looked bad playing there. He gets the nod from me. |
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J-Dog
Top Prospect
Canada
39 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2008 : 19:17:11
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For the people who said that he shouldn't get into the hall of fame because he had a stacked team in front of him, please take the following into account. One of the great goaltenders of all-time ken Dryden played in the 70's, correct? Here is the 72-73 lineup that won the cup.
Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Jacques Laperriere, Bob Murdoch, Pierre Bouchard, Jim Roberts, Yvan Cournoyer, Frank Mahovlich, Jacques Lemaire, Pete Mahovlich, Marc Tardif, Henri Richard, Rejean Houle, Guy Lafleur, Chuck Lefley, Claude Larose, Murray Wilson, Steve Shutt, Michel Plasse And scotty bowman as a coach.
Now Dryden is a H.O.F. member and isn't even questioned as to the reason he's there, YET we could make the argument that 6 cups in 8 years is inflated with a team like this, with so much talent.
I just think it's worth noting that just about all the goaltenders, players, coaches that have made it to the HOF had great teams. Kurri probably doesn't make it without gretzky, bowman coached the habs in their prime and detroit in their prime. If osgood is a little guilty of the "stacked team effect" than we need to boot half the players in the HOF to start with. Teams win battles, teams win games, teams win cups, only extrordinary players (orr, gretzky, etc.) are exceptions. Hasek is going to be a hall of famer, and he was pulled last playoffs for petes sake!, so osgood could take over.
The stats are there to me, even if he wasnt as good on other teams (see previous statement) but it shouldn't matter, and I see no other reason why not to let him in. |
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Guest5372
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Posted - 10/22/2008 : 06:53:56
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quote:
Originally posted by J-Dog
For the people who said that he shouldn't get into the hall of fame because he had a stacked team in front of him, please take the following into account. One of the great goaltenders of all-time ken Dryden played in the 70's, correct? Here is the 72-73 lineup that won the cup.
Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Jacques Laperriere, Bob Murdoch, Pierre Bouchard, Jim Roberts, Yvan Cournoyer, Frank Mahovlich, Jacques Lemaire, Pete Mahovlich, Marc Tardif, Henri Richard, Rejean Houle, Guy Lafleur, Chuck Lefley, Claude Larose, Murray Wilson, Steve Shutt, Michel Plasse And scotty bowman as a coach.
Now Dryden is a H.O.F. member and isn't even questioned as to the reason he's there, YET we could make the argument that 6 cups in 8 years is inflated with a team like this, with so much talent.
I just think it's worth noting that just about all the goaltenders, players, coaches that have made it to the HOF had great teams. Kurri probably doesn't make it without gretzky, bowman coached the habs in their prime and detroit in their prime. If osgood is a little guilty of the "stacked team effect" than we need to boot half the players in the HOF to start with. Teams win battles, teams win games, teams win cups, only extrordinary players (orr, gretzky, etc.) are exceptions. Hasek is going to be a hall of famer, and he was pulled last playoffs for petes sake!, so osgood could take over.
The stats are there to me, even if he wasnt as good on other teams (see previous statement) but it shouldn't matter, and I see no other reason why not to let him in.
Most of those who says he doesn't get in because of the team in front of him also point out that other than winning the cups with a really good team, he has done almost nothing individually.
Above the cups and the insane statistics, the players you mention have the following items in their mantle (also not including Jennings because that is somewhat a team related award).
Dryden : conn smythe, calder and 5 vezina trophies, 6 time 1st or 2nd all star.
Kurri: lady bing trophy, 5 time 1st or 2nd line all star, world team all star (not playing with Gretz).
Hasek: Pearson, 2 Hart, 6 Vezinas, 6 time 1st all star team.
Ogsood: 1 2nd all star team appearance.
Wow. Osgood is a shoo-in for sure. That single 2nd all star team sure makes up for all the conn smythe, pearson, vezinas and 1st team all star those other chumps got.
Oh yeah, Scotty Bowman, he only has 2 Jack Adams and the craziest thing in all of the major sports, the only coach to win a championship with 3 different teams. Again not including his crazy coaching stats. |
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Guest2159
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Posted - 10/22/2008 : 07:37:57
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| i believe if joseph stayed in toronto and hadnt gone to these teams and played maybe 3 or 4 more years and did as well as he did before i think he would be hall of fame material no doubt but since he ewent to detroit played 1 year averagely and they kinda sucked in the playoffs and then went to phoenix and to the ahl and then was a backup in calgary that definatley brought his chances down. osgood not hall of famematerial too bad cfause i do like his playing style. |
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nashvillepreds
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1053 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2008 : 07:51:32
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I didn't vote on this yet, I'm kind of on the edge with Osgood. I see how great he is, he has almost 400 wins and he has won 3 cups, but he does have a great team infront of him. Usually I don't have any problem with goalies having great players protecting them, such as in Brodeurs case, but his case isn't as extreme.
This is the one thing that may push Osgood out of the hall. When Hasek went to ottawa, he was terrible, and you could see, he was showing signs he was aging. Latere in the season, he was beat out for the starting job by Emery. Then the next season, hasek comes over to Detroit and BEATS OSGOOD for the starting job and has a great season.
Could Hasek have just had one bad year, it's possible, but I doubt it. Detroit is the powerhouse of the NHL and the oldest most experienced team. seeing guys like Legace and Hasek having so much succes there and not having much elsewhere (excluding Hasek's earlier days) I'm really on the fence whether Osgood does in fact belong in the Hall. If he manages 500 wins, then he definitely belongs, but other wise it's tough to tell.
Ellis or Renne....
ELLIS
Go Preds Go! |
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2008 : 10:40:11
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quote:
Originally posted by nashvillepreds
I didn't vote on this yet, I'm kind of on the edge with Osgood. I see how great he is, he has almost 400 wins and he has won 3 cups, but he does have a great team infront of him. Usually I don't have any problem with goalies having great players protecting them, such as in Brodeurs case, but his case isn't as extreme.
This is the one thing that may push Osgood out of the hall. When Hasek went to ottawa, he was terrible, and you could see, he was showing signs he was aging. Latere in the season, he was beat out for the starting job by Emery. Then the next season, hasek comes over to Detroit and BEATS OSGOOD for the starting job and has a great season.
Could Hasek have just had one bad year, it's possible, but I doubt it. Detroit is the powerhouse of the NHL and the oldest most experienced team. seeing guys like Legace and Hasek having so much succes there and not having much elsewhere (excluding Hasek's earlier days) I'm really on the fence whether Osgood does in fact belong in the Hall. If he manages 500 wins, then he definitely belongs, but other wise it's tough to tell.
Ellis or Renne....
ELLIS
Go Preds Go!
As for Hasek's stint with Ottawa, he actually started out great, holding the second best save % and GAA in the NHL. That is until the Olympics where he got injured and therefore did not play the rest of the year. Just to let you know.
And you're saying Hasek wasn't successful with other teams? The guy won 6 vezinas, 2 harts and 2 Lester B. Pearson awards before he even played with Detroit. |
Edited by - pokermatt12 on 10/22/2008 10:55:47 |
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J-Dog
Top Prospect
Canada
39 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2008 : 12:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5372
quote:
Originally posted by J-Dog
For the people who said that he shouldn't get into the hall of fame because he had a stacked team in front of him, please take the following into account. One of the great goaltenders of all-time ken Dryden played in the 70's, correct? Here is the 72-73 lineup that won the cup.
Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Larry Robinson, Jacques Laperriere, Bob Murdoch, Pierre Bouchard, Jim Roberts, Yvan Cournoyer, Frank Mahovlich, Jacques Lemaire, Pete Mahovlich, Marc Tardif, Henri Richard, Rejean Houle, Guy Lafleur, Chuck Lefley, Claude Larose, Murray Wilson, Steve Shutt, Michel Plasse And scotty bowman as a coach.
Now Dryden is a H.O.F. member and isn't even questioned as to the reason he's there, YET we could make the argument that 6 cups in 8 years is inflated with a team like this, with so much talent.
I just think it's worth noting that just about all the goaltenders, players, coaches that have made it to the HOF had great teams. Kurri probably doesn't make it without gretzky, bowman coached the habs in their prime and detroit in their prime. If osgood is a little guilty of the "stacked team effect" than we need to boot half the players in the HOF to start with. Teams win battles, teams win games, teams win cups, only extrordinary players (orr, gretzky, etc.) are exceptions. Hasek is going to be a hall of famer, and he was pulled last playoffs for petes sake!, so osgood could take over.
The stats are there to me, even if he wasnt as good on other teams (see previous statement) but it shouldn't matter, and I see no other reason why not to let him in.
Most of those who says he doesn't get in because of the team in front of him also point out that other than winning the cups with a really good team, he has done almost nothing individually.
Above the cups and the insane statistics, the players you mention have the following items in their mantle (also not including Jennings because that is somewhat a team related award).
Dryden : conn smythe, calder and 5 vezina trophies, 6 time 1st or 2nd all star.
Kurri: lady bing trophy, 5 time 1st or 2nd line all star, world team all star (not playing with Gretz).
Hasek: Pearson, 2 Hart, 6 Vezinas, 6 time 1st all star team.
Ogsood: 1 2nd all star team appearance.
Wow. Osgood is a shoo-in for sure. That single 2nd all star team sure makes up for all the conn smythe, pearson, vezinas and 1st team all star those other chumps got.
Oh yeah, Scotty Bowman, he only has 2 Jack Adams and the craziest thing in all of the major sports, the only coach to win a championship with 3 different teams. Again not including his crazy coaching stats.
I understand that osgood has never won any big individual awards (just cups), and I get where your coming from, there are better players and goaltenders, he should not be in first ballot. How many times though has he been top 5 in those categories (GAA SPct,), probably just as often as anyone else. Look at it this way, in golf, Jack nicklaus won 18 majors but finished 2nd 19 times. It's not necesarily about being the best, just being great is fine, and I think there are more than a few second bests in the HOF now.
And for your bowman explanation... thanks. I think bowman is the best coach I will ever see in my lifetime. He has proven that he can bring wins even to mediocre teams. I don't want to bash him but this is where I think your argument doesn't stand up, so I will have to. Lets look at those 3 teams he won cups with:
1st- is the CRAZY habs team that have the players that WON ALL those nice individual awards. How can having this team be a real challenge to win jack adams awards and getting plenty of wins? Obviously it is a team effort but again your stats for kurri just show that he only won 1 thing without gretky, and he is a hall of famer.
2nd- A pittsburgh team that had won their first cup, still were stacked, and were playing dedicating their season for bob johnson.. I think osgood himself could have coached this team to a cup...
3rd- detroit redwings: the year before scotty showed up the team had 47 wins and 103 points. Yzerman was already there with plenty of help so guiding them to a cup was no real battle, only the next step.
I have some nice stats comparison for you as well guest 5372:
Osgood 1995-96 GP 50 W 39 L 6 T 5 SO 5 GAA 2.17 SP 0.911
The winner of the vezina was jim carey, had 35 wins, 2.26GAA, and 0.906 save pct. Osgood has better stats in all those categories, only shutouts, 9 to osgood's 5, did Carey have over osgood that particular year.
Dryden's 1972-73 season(vezina winner) GP54 W33 L7 T13 SO6 GAA2.26 SP N/A
it was also a high scoring season in 1995-96, it's arguable but still comparable to a certain degree, EX: lemieux has 160 pts, sakic 120, forsberg, 116, kariya selanne 108, jagr 149, etc. etc.
Stats are stats they cant be directly skewed only perceptively skewed. Trophy voting however goes by opinion, like us, we debate, they choose, we debate again. I personnally think the 95-96 osgood season is a vezina worthy one...if you really want to go the hardware way. But I will still say he should not be voted in first year he is eligible, but he does deserve a little credit for consistency, perseverance (being a backup for a few seasons has killed some careers, no?) and being competitive through all his playing time. BTW he did have over .500 seasons with other teams, they weren't as good but lets not forget it takes time to adjust to new surroundings, 1 season and 30 games is a short team lifespan.
That's about all I can put out right now, sorry to rant, I just think he deserves his place at one point or another.
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Edited by - J-Dog on 10/22/2008 12:16:47 |
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Topic |
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Does Osgood Belong in the Hall of Fame? 
