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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2015 : 10:13:41
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It could very well be that Winnipeg isn't interested I Phaneuf either. Does Phaneuf really make that much sense for a team like the Jets? Maybe he could help their young dmen but at that dollar value, I think he's a bit much for them.
Winnipeg prob realizes they're still a few years away from serious contender status and by then they're prob hoping / assuming some of their youth (Trouba, Morrissy, Myers) has taken the next step? |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2015 : 13:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
It could very well be that Winnipeg isn't interested I Phaneuf either. Does Phaneuf really make that much sense for a team like the Jets? Maybe he could help their young dmen but at that dollar value, I think he's a bit much for them.
Winnipeg prob realizes they're still a few years away from serious contender status and by then they're prob hoping / assuming some of their youth (Trouba, Morrissy, Myers) has taken the next step?
Totally agree. They wouldn't take Phaneuf.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2015 : 15:07:16
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Its funny, but I see so many similarities in there games I thought I would get a few on board. Both are 30, bigger, but slower defenseman who spend a lot of time on the PK with very similar stats this year and although Phanuef has that monster contract, I expect Buff will eclipse his contract value when he resigns. Buffs may be more veristile, being that he can play forward and defense, but Phanuef is used in more situations and puts in more TOI. For the record I would rather have Phanuef on my team for the same money and what they bring to the game
At least it brought a discussion. which is ultimately why I brought it up. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2015 : 20:07:04
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Joshua , love to debate these things but why would the jets bring in dumbass , snowshoe foot speed Phaneuf , along with all that $$$$ and HORRIBLE contract..... When all they have to do is give Buff a good 5 year contract ???
If they don't mind spending , pay Buff
If they don't wanna spend why bring in Phaneuf ?
Why pay Phaneuf all that $$$ when you can pay a player you already have for the same $$$ .... One who is much better than Phaneuf ...
The only team I can possibly see Phaneuf going to is the Oilers, his hometown isn't it ? He may be able to bring some ( something ) lol to their defense, just maybe. I really don't like Phaneuf , think he was minus 4 against Wpg couple games ago , again. I'm sure that impressed the jets on trade talks
Other than the oilers ,...... Only other suitors may be a southwest US team way out in Lala land.... They don't see him play much these days , maybe the leafs can pull the wool over the eyes of one of those teams
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2015 : 12:42:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Joshua , love to debate these things but why would the jets bring in dumbass , snowshoe foot speed Phaneuf , along with all that $$$$ and HORRIBLE contract..... When all they have to do is give Buff a good 5 year contract ???
If they don't mind spending , pay Buff
If they don't wanna spend why bring in Phaneuf ?
Why pay Phaneuf all that $$$ when you can pay a player you already have for the same $$$ .... One who is much better than Phaneuf ...
The only team I can possibly see Phaneuf going to is the Oilers, his hometown isn't it ? He may be able to bring some ( something ) lol to their defense, just maybe. I really don't like Phaneuf , think he was minus 4 against Wpg couple games ago , again. I'm sure that impressed the jets on trade talks
Other than the oilers ,...... Only other suitors may be a southwest US team way out in Lala land.... They don't see him play much these days , maybe the leafs can pull the wool over the eyes of one of those teams
To be honest all the things you said about Phaneufs game, downsides and his contract apply to Buffs. He isn't the fastest, defensively apt player on the roster either and will likely command Phaneuf money in the offseason. So the question is why would you sign Buffs to Phaneuf money. I actually think Phaneuf is the better defenseman, BTW, and puts in more TOI.
For the record the Cap hit might be $7.0 in 2015-2019, but Phaneuf is signed real money at $7.5 2015-16, $7.0 2016-17, $6.5 2017-18 and $6.5 in 2018-19. Buffs will command higher than that in real money and possibly cap hit, possibly for a longer term than the term end of Phaneufs, yet we aren't all on here bashing the big Buff. Buffs plays with a better team and defensive core and isn't relied upon to captain the Jets.
Heres a link to both players contracts and stats
http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/player_stats/801-byfuglien-dustin
http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/player_stats/33-phaneuf-dion |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2015 : 15:04:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I really don't like Phaneuf...
NO! Do tell! Lol.  |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2015 : 12:32:52
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Joshua , maybe if Phaneuf were getting 3.5 mil per season myself and others wouldn't be so hard on him, but he would still be a slow footed puck turn over machine .
Trust me , if you watched Phaneuf play night in and night out as I do ( at a 7 million cap hit ) your stomach would roll has a leaf fan.... When you consider the fact that the leafs could have one of the leagues elite on the blue line for that $$$$$.... Sickening |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2015 : 13:03:12
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| As long as your not suggesting Buff is that elite guy, I am all good with that statement. I will say away from the leafs Phaneuf might be considered in higher esteem. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2015 : 07:24:16
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I think it boils down to this....
Phaneuf is overpaid. He may have earned this money to some degree with his play when he was younger, but he's not worth that much now. Is he worth half what he's getting? Absolutely, and prob more like 3/4 of his current pay. Sadly, that's the going rate for top 4 dmen right now, which he still is. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2015 : 06:36:43
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Anyway , back on topic ....
If I were leafs GM right now I would ....
Play Bernier more.... Hopefully he will keep losing
Trade Lupul for picks....
Trade Bozak for picks.....
Try and trade Phaneuf....
Give myself the best possible shot at Austin Matthews |
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2015 : 11:59:39
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a hot topic around the Toronto sports scene these days is the possibility of Stamkos going UFA this summer and signing long-term with the Leafs.
be it slim, remote, laughable, whatever.......let's just imagine for a moment you were Shanahan, Lamariello, et al. Stamkos' agent calls you up and says that the Leafs are his 1st choice and he will 100% sign if they can table the $$'s and terms he wants (let's just assume $12M/season over 8 years).
given the Leafs long-term plan to re-build, and this is only year 1 of that plan.....do you jump at this opportunity or not? explain reasons for your answer. and you can't simply say "because it's Stamkos!" |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/11/2015 : 14:52:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper
a hot topic around the Toronto sports scene these days is the possibility of Stamkos going UFA this summer and signing long-term with the Leafs.
be it slim, remote, laughable, whatever.......let's just imagine for a moment you were Shanahan, Lamariello, et al. Stamkos' agent calls you up and says that the Leafs are his 1st choice and he will 100% sign if they can table the $$'s and terms he wants (let's just assume $12M/season over 8 years).
given the Leafs long-term plan to re-build, and this is only year 1 of that plan.....do you jump at this opportunity or not? explain reasons for your answer. and you can't simply say "because it's Stamkos!"
$12 million for 8 years in Toronto! Is this a prank call hang up scenario where all parties involved have been drinking. Its like drunk dialing for a hookup getting halfway thru your call list before the "come right over" answer happens. I honestly hope someone further down his list says come on over first. |
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markliso
Rookie
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2015 : 04:31:41
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because it's stamkos.
and chiapet will never bring in phaneuf. |
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2015 : 10:11:01
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Ok first off Josh.....what??
Second, there was mention before about how there is a lack of debate and banter on these forums lately. So here I put up a good topic for discussion and these are responses I get? No wonder it's so dead around here... |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2015 : 11:32:38
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Gipper , Stamkos is something the leafs have been missing for a long time , I'd love to have him in blue ...
Be careful though with contracts, leafs have been known to over indulge. Lol
If I were GM.... Here's my offer
Year 1 & 2 .....11 million each
3 & 4 ..............10
5 & 6 ........,,.....9
7 & 8 ................8
9 & 10 ..............7
Overall a 10 year deal with an average cap hit of 9 million
Fair deal I think |
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markliso
Rookie
Canada
104 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2015 : 17:22:56
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Duke is right, Stamkos is an ACTUAL elite player that the boys in blue have been missing for quite some time, since Sundin perhaps? And if the rumours are true that he actually WANTS to play in Toronto, what better player to bring in. He's proven he's an elite talent that can teach the younger guys, he's in his prime, he's going to have a fantastic coach, he'll be a hero in the city, and he is a player that can make other players around him better. He would immediately help TO and even better, if TO can get him without giving up any of their current pieces, wow.
Kessel was a drain on the team. Stamkos would be uplifting to the team. His drive, his compete level, his work ethic, that would shine in the dressing room. I think any team would be immediately better with him in the lineup, it's not like a "what if it works out" you pretty much know it will work out. Like kessel, it was kind of a "will it actually work in pittsburgh?"
So yeah, I stand beside: because it's stamkos. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2015 : 19:35:44
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I was honestly going for humour Gipper, but didn't mean to offend. From what I have read his like in social media of a possible trade to Toronto was by mistake. Next year Toronto has $47 Million tied up into 6 forwards, 4 Defenseman, 1 goalie and a few buyout contracts. Some of the guys signed to entry level or bridge contracts are coming due and this team is sitting dead last in the division and likely going to challenge for bottom of the Eastern Conference/NHL. Dropping $12 million on Stamkos pretty much gives Toronto $13-15 million to ice the remainder of the roster 10-11 more players at $1.3-1.5 million average. This would be a horrible mistake.
This early in the rebuild to add Stamkos, basically undoes the rebuild. There are so many other parts and pieces required that dropping $12 million on a player right now, pretty much locks this team up now before the rebuild really accomplishing anything. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 12/12/2015 19:58:41 |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/12/2015 : 19:50:22
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BTW, is Horton ever gonna play again. Whats the scoop with him. I haven't heard. If he is technically out of action career wise that means my math was off and Toronto has $19-22 million for the other 5-6 forwards, 3-4 defenseman needed and a #1 or #2 goalie if they signed Stamkos to $12 million, which I agree is the appropriate amount he will ask for. That's still pretty tight to ice a competitive roster ($1.8-2 million average for 10-12 players), not ideal, but doable.
I still maintain it would create more problems than it would fix and the money spent on him is better spent elsewhere, without making other significant salary changes to this roster. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 12/12/2015 20:00:31 |
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2015 : 05:42:40
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better responses.....thanks guys.
I think they'd be off their rocker if they didn't sign him, and as a fan I'd love to see him in a Leafs uni. my only concern is that this may force management to once again speed up their re-build. Stamkos will be 26 at the start of next season, and in the prime of his career. he's ready to win! but will the Leafs be ready? all that talk about drafting, developing, patience. bringing younger players along more slowly. making sure they are ready for the NHL. making sure they are ready to play in Toronto.
if they sign him what kind of team will he have around him? as it stands right now: they have no goaltending; their D is still a work in process with Rielly being seen as the future; and their forwards on most nights have trouble putting the puck in the back of the net. not to mention that some of these guys are more then likely trade bait at the deadline (Bozak, Winnik, Parenteau, Lupul, etc). with the return likely being more picks and prospects.
if they stay the course and maintain their focus on the re-build, then by the time they are ready to at least be competitive, Stamkos will likely be in his 4th year. in which case he'll be 30.
OR....they could choose to speed up the process, but we've all heard that drum beat before, and have seen the results. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2015 : 06:55:28
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Gipper , if stamkos were pushing 30 years old, no doesn't make sense, but he is only 25. Sure ,right now he wouldn't make a whole difference, but they could stay on course and even 4 years down the road stamkos would still be very effective between ages 30 - 35 , a star veteran leading a young team .
Joshua....
You bring up cap issues of the leafs signing Stamkos. You do realize that the leafs cap structure will be going through move severe changes over the next couple of seasons .
Answer this question for me ??
If Stamkos may hamper Torontos team cap ...... ( my question ) How is it possible that Pittsburg can pay 1. Crosby 2. Malkin 3. Kessel 4. Letang 5. Fluery
Or Chicago paying 1. Teows 2. Kane 3. Hossa 4. Keith 5. Seabrook
Their teams do have success |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2015 : 07:11:42
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Srry, hit post by mistake, wasn't finished. Lol
Joshua, these players I listed above ( less kessel ) are all MAJOR cap eaters But have all won Stanley cups together , who can argue with that ????
Plus , halfway through a new Stamkos deal , Phaneufs contract would be pretty much expired .
So , in 4 years time we'd have a veteran in Stamkos , Nylander, Marner , Kapanen , Bracco maybe ? Gauthier 3rd line Center ?..... Plus this seasons 2 first rounders ... And 3 more years of drafting and rebuilding .... Sounds pretty good to me |
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The_Gipper
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
285 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2015 : 10:01:38
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Duke, again I'm all in with Stamkos but with the caveat that management doesn't go all out ridiculous trying to build a cup team around him in a matter of 1 - 2 seasons, and in the process empty our prospects/draft picks cupboard all over again.
I do also worry about his production. granted goal scoring is down across the league, but he's really fallen off the radar this year. he's currently on pace for 29G 58pt season. not Stamkos like numbers. now I'd also like to state that I don't watch any of his games, but there are stories out there that he's being misused, and that he's not seeing eye to eye with the coach. does this really affect his production that much? I know he used to relish on the PP minutes, and garner a bunch of goals from that top of the circle spot. does he still get those minutes, and is he still in that same position? I guess I'm really wondering if a change of scenery will revitalize his game... |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2015 : 12:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Srry, hit post by mistake, wasn't finished. Lol
Joshua, these players I listed above ( less kessel ) are all MAJOR cap eaters But have all won Stanley cups together , who can argue with that ????
Plus , halfway through a new Stamkos deal , Phaneufs contract would be pretty much expired .
So , in 4 years time we'd have a veteran in Stamkos , Nylander, Marner , Kapanen , Bracco maybe ? Gauthier 3rd line Center ?..... Plus this seasons 2 first rounders ... And 3 more years of drafting and rebuilding .... Sounds pretty good to me
I agree the players on Chicago/Pittsburgh are worth the money being spent, the majority earned there now incredibly expensive contracts post the cup wins. There are a lot of people who believe both Chicago and Pittsburgh are so cap tight that they have had to shed most of the team that got them the cups. The fact Chicago is bucking the trend and staying relevant is surprising, whereas Pittsburgh's current troubles and cap situation has been well documented, almost since the cup win.
With regards to (Stamkos , Nylander, Marner , Kapanen , Bracco maybe ? Gauthier 3rd line Center ?..... ) I would have to google search a few of the names on this list, while the others being ok potentially, does not mean guaranteed NHL talent. Stamkos does not make this a playoff roster. Plus I agree with the Gipper, Stamkos is having an off year and how much does playing in Tampa in the past with St Louis and now the Triplet line have to do with his incredible goal totals? Is he enough to undo your long overdue rebuild?
I just feel Toronto now is the wrong fit for Stamkos and Stamkos right now is the wrong fit for Toronto. Where Stamkos could make the most impact is a team like Montreal, basically a team that already has there identity and needs an impact player to push them over the edge. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2015 : 06:23:08
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I agree Joshua that Toronto isn't ready for Stamkos RIGHT now BUT as I posted, when the leafs will be ready ( 3-4 years down the road ) Stamkos will still be under 30.... So grab him now if u can .... As a UFA of course.
I think you are HELPING your team anytime you can pick up a franchise player ( for nothing ) who is only 25 years old. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2015 : 08:05:19
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quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA
I was honestly going for humour Gipper, but didn't mean to offend. From what I have read his like in social media of a possible trade to Toronto was by mistake. Next year Toronto has $47 Million tied up into 6 forwards, 4 Defenseman, 1 goalie and a few buyout contracts. Some of the guys signed to entry level or bridge contracts are coming due and this team is sitting dead last in the division and likely going to challenge for bottom of the Eastern Conference/NHL. Dropping $12 million on Stamkos pretty much gives Toronto $13-15 million to ice the remainder of the roster 10-11 more players at $1.3-1.5 million average. This would be a horrible mistake.
This early in the rebuild to add Stamkos, basically undoes the rebuild. There are so many other parts and pieces required that dropping $12 million on a player right now, pretty much locks this team up now before the rebuild really accomplishing anything.
So, point by point:
1) Stamkos social media tweet "was a mistake"
Yep, his only two tweets . . . EVER . . . his only two tweets ever in the existence of his account . . . were both mistakes . . . linking him to the Leafs.
Sure it was a mistake.
And I'm not even implying because of that, that it means he actually wants to go to the Leafs - because it could be entirely a negotiating ploy (both times) to up his asking price from the Lightning. But let's not be naive about it here folks.
2) Next year Toronto has $47 million tied up in those inflated contracts.
Yes, RIGHT NOW (read: NOT NEXT YEAR) they have that amount tied up. That's only correct for . . . wait for it . . . RIGHT. NOW.
Unless you think that absolutely zero of those contracts will move - which no one who is worth their salt will agree with you on - then you are wildly incorrect.
One or more of Horton (off the books), Bozak, Phaneuf, Lupul, Robidas, Bernier, or Grabner will leave. Likely two or more of that group, IMHO. That will shed an enormous amount of salary.
Additionally, because of youth coming up through the system for next year (Nylander specifically, but there may be others), another mid level contract should be displaced, if not simply replacing a current guy like a Boyes, etc.
3) Some bridge guys are due (namely Kadri)
Ok . . . so who says that we will have to overpay on those guys? I'm not sure how this is relevant.
4) Assuming Stamkos will get 12 mil
I think this is wildly incorrect as well. I think Toronto would pass on Stammer if they had to pay over 11 mil, IMHO . . . Lou is the kind of GM that rarely if ever overpays. That's just not his kind of mistake to make. So I don't see it . . . and I don't think Stamkos will command as much as is being speculated, mostly on Toronto-based media circles. I think he's a 9 to 10 mil guy on the open market, myself.
5) It undoes the rebuild.
No, it doesn't. The only thing that undoes a rebuild is throwing away picks for decent to good players with a "win now" mentality. Signing a superstar for free does not do that - it only gives you BETTER value for the money you are spending.
You say it ties up the cap space? We already are a cap team . . .
Replace Lupul, Matthias and Spaling with the signing of Stamkos and 2 entry level contracts, and the $ amount is the same. Which of those two options is better, in your humble opinion? And if one of those entry level contracts is Nylander, do you have to think about which one is better? lol
So,
To answer the new question in a very old and ongoing thread:
Yes, I go for Stamkos, and I get him for 10 mil or less. I only go up to 11 mil if the contract is structured nicely for a cheap back-end if we have to offload him later.
Reasons why:
1 - he's the leader and centrepiece you'd want on a rebuild.
1st line centre and later winger to help develop kids around.
Consummate pro. Great work ethic.
Would become our captain after the departure of Phaneuf.
2 - he'd be extremely motivated to build his legacy in Toronto
Hometown guy with still elite skills. Working under a great coach. He has the right attitude for a guy with a big contract.
3 - He's still young (ONLY 25!), so a longish contract (7 years?) wouldn't kill the Leafs if he starts to decline at a normal rate.
4 - He's exactly what the team is missing, a first line centre. If he later turns into a winger for another 1st line centre we develop (Nylander, Marner, etc) - great. If he remains our first line centre - that means he's producing at an elite rate still, great. If it's rebuild OR contending, that's what we need, a first line centre.
I think it's a no brainer.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2015 : 11:00:00
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My annual chirp!
Lou Lamorillo is not known for overpaying?? Kovalchuk anyone?? Bobby Holik anyone?? Gomez anyone? The list goes on and on. He will overpay.
Secondly, Stamkos is one of maybe 10-15 players in the entire NHL that should and will get max money for the max time amount. I can't seeing the Leafs (or anyone else for that matter) getting a discount nor should they.
Thirdly, the Leafs, and every other team in the league, should do everything they can to sign this guy.
Finally, and sadly, the Leafs need WAY more help than Stamkos and, at the risk of starting a war, their team today and their prospects are absolutely not what anyone would say is a team with potential for the future. Stamkos would be walking into year 2 of a 5 year rebuild. Lots and lots and lots and lots of pieces are needed still.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2016 : 15:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
My annual chirp!
Lou Lamorillo is not known for overpaying?? Kovalchuk anyone?? Bobby Holik anyone?? Gomez anyone? The list goes on and on. He will overpay.
Secondly, Stamkos is one of maybe 10-15 players in the entire NHL that should and will get max money for the max time amount. I can't seeing the Leafs (or anyone else for that matter) getting a discount nor should they.
Thirdly, the Leafs, and every other team in the league, should do everything they can to sign this guy.
Finally, and sadly, the Leafs need WAY more help than Stamkos and, at the risk of starting a war, their team today and their prospects are absolutely not what anyone would say is a team with potential for the future. Stamkos would be walking into year 2 of a 5 year rebuild. Lots and lots and lots and lots of pieces are needed still.
Of all the responses to the prospect of landing Stamkos in Toronto, Beans has nail the most sensible response. I'll give you 6 more reasons Stamkos will get max $ for max term (Winnipeg, New Jersey, Nashville, Colorado, Carolina or Vancouver) 6 teams with almost $10 million in cap space, closer to a playoff contender than Toronto. These aren't even all the teams that could, should or would pay him the to the max. Unless Stamkos and his agent turn off the phone and only call direct to Toronto, those teams will be making offers. All in the past have taken big and large gambles on players for big and large dollars. Stamkos is less of a big and large gamble, but a franchise player comparible to Crosby, Hall, Ovechkin, Price, Toews, Karlsson and Tavares. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 01/02/2016 15:08:03 |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2016 : 19:03:59
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Joshua, how can u say Beans has the most intelligent post on this topic ??
His post is all full of holes for God sake.
His comment on slozo's post regarding Lou lam signing the 3 players he listed is all wrong , ( lies )....the only one of 3 he is correct on is I . Kovchk... Glen sater and the NYR gave Holik and Gomez those crazy contracts, NOT Lou lam.
So Slozo you are right.... Beans you are wrong.
Beans you also said Torontos prospect is basically shallow... Then why did ESPN rate the leafs prospect pool 2nd overall of the 30 NHL teams coming into this season ???? .... Someone is wrong and I don't think its ESPN.... They DO their homework
Of course the leafs should sign Stamkos as a UFA if they get the chance. And so should the other 29 NHL teams , if given the chance |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2016 : 11:16:17
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Oh Duke, you make it so unbelievably easy.
You are right, Holik and Gomez were both signed to outrageous contracts by the Rangers. But, what team did they play for before going to the Rangers and what where their contracts on that team?? If you do just a little bit of homework you will see that the reason why the Rangers signed them so high was they were already 2 of the most overpaid players in the NHL at the time.
Further, Kovalchuk was the highest contract in the history of the NHL. How can someone say that Lamoriello wouldn't sign anyone to a big contact?? Dumb.
Finally, just because ESPN says something doesn't make it accurate no more than you or I saying something make it's accurate. The read one time in Popular Science that another ice age was coming and we would all be dead by 2010.
They need Stamkos and ALOT more. That's all I was saying.
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2016 : 07:25:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Oh Duke, you make it so unbelievably easy.
You are right, Holik and Gomez were both signed to outrageous contracts by the Rangers. But, what team did they play for before going to the Rangers and what where their contracts on that team?? If you do just a little bit of homework you will see that the reason why the Rangers signed them so high was they were already 2 of the most overpaid players in the NHL at the time.
Further, Kovalchuk was the highest contract in the history of the NHL. How can someone say that Lamoriello wouldn't sign anyone to a big contact?? Dumb.
Finally, just because ESPN says something doesn't make it accurate no more than you or I saying something make it's accurate. The read one time in Popular Science that another ice age was coming and we would all be dead by 2010.
They need Stamkos and ALOT more. That's all I was saying.
Holik and Gomez were not overpaid at all on the Devils - have no idea why you would even bring those contracts up. I think it's just you trying to add things to make your point . . . which you don't have to. You can say Kovalchuk, and it's a very comparable situation to Stamkos too, so you can make your point about it right there, end of story - and that's a fair point. Of course, I can argue about no cap system then, NJ's overall cap hit at the time and the ability they had to overpay for one player etc etc. But at least it's a fair point.
But Holik and Gomez overpaid by Lou? Ridiculous. Holik was a premium power forward, defensive 2nd line centre, who was one of the core pieces on two Stanley Cup winners.
And Gomez? Great example . . . Lou had to accept an arbiter's ruling in 2006, giving Gomez a $5 mil, one year contract. And then the next year - because Lou wasn't going to shell out more than he was worth - he signed that big deal with the Rangers.
You should have quit while you were ahead Beans. Or at least just admitted your mistake.
Don't Leaf me hanging, Buds! |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2016 : 17:42:34
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Holik and Gomez overpaid in NJ beans ???? lmfao...
They were GREAT in NJ...didn`t they win 2 Stanley cups together ??
Do you remember that ? AND 2 very integral pieces of those stanley cup winning teams , may i add !!!
You shagged up when you named those 2 for Lou Lam`s blunders, in fact , all you did was show how genius Lou Lam. was by NOT giving those 2 the outrageous contracts they demanded...lol... oh Beans you make it so easy.
Fact of the matter was.....
Lou Lam. recognized that NEITHER was worth what they wanted , so , i guess that makes him very right, since the rest is history.
As for Kovalchuk, sure was a big contract, BUT he sure was a great player. Playing in a city which CANNOT attract any UFA`s. With Scott. N, and Scott . S gone, Brodeur on the way out....i could see the predicament NJ was in regarding Kovalchuk, trying desperately to hang onto 1 superstar......
OK , Lou gave 1 player a monster contract ( who was one of the best in the league at the time ) big whoop.
That was very insightful comparing ESPN magazine to Popular science....they are both in the same field after all...
I guess you couldnt find any sport source to go against what ESPN wrote regarding the leafs prospects....lol |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2016 : 17:59:54
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By the way Beans,
join in and post some more, i miss arguing with you , i really do.
We need another mega length leaf debate, really stirs the pot. lol
I have a question for every1 ??....read this first, question will be at the end.
Toronto trades a 1st overall pick and loses Tyler Seguin.......
It turns out to be an eternal debate. Brian Burke is crucified...
Boston trades away the next coming ( Tyler Seguin ) and it doesn`t get ANY long term attention as it did with the leaf haters.....the leafs DIDNT even trade Seguin, they traded a draft pick, and get hammered by leaf haters......
question.....why is that ??
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2016 : 20:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
By the way Beans,
join in and post some more, i miss arguing with you , i really do.
We need another mega length leaf debate, really stirs the pot. lol
I have a question for every1 ??....read this first, question will be at the end.
Toronto trades a 1st overall pick and loses Tyler Seguin.......
It turns out to be an eternal debate. Brian Burke is crucified...
Boston trades away the next coming ( Tyler Seguin ) and it doesn`t get ANY long term attention as it did with the leaf haters.....the leafs DIDNT even trade Seguin, they traded a draft pick, and get hammered by leaf haters......
question.....why is that ??
Now your just picking fights here. Seguins trade to Dallas was because of his personal issues, had a health concern and the fact Boston was not able to consistently play Seguin in a top 6 role with there depth, plus the fact they were cap strapped and had other pieces they needed to retain. Boston was a perennial playoff cup contender to that point. Seguin as good as he is with Bean in Dallas, wasn't projected that high and has overperformed his potential in Boston. You might not think the debate lasted long enough but I think the Seguin debate to Dallas lasted close to a season and the reason it hasn't dragged on longer was because the overall chatter on this site has died down, not that the trade was any less controversial than the one that got Kessel to Toronto. By the time the Seguin trade went down we were all sick of the Seguin for Kessel debate.
You might have poked holes in the New Jersey signings by Lou, but that doesn't mean that his post about Lou overpaying or that Toronto should have to pay at value for Stamkos, which in my opinion is an absolute mistake, isn't true. Do you like apples Duke? |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2016 : 13:06:36
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Duke, no one said that Holik and Gomez were not very good hockey players nor unimportant to their club during their championship year, but they were getting paid a lot more than they should have even before the dumb deals that Sather threw in front of them.
As far as the questions of the trades, Boston was definitely on the losing end of the stick in the Seguin deal. Absolutely. No one argues that but it's also Boston and not Toronto so in the universe of hockey there is less crap hurled at other teams than there is at Toronto.
Both were equally blundered trades that set their respective franchises back by years.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2016 : 12:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I have a question for every1 ??....read this first, question will be at the end.
Toronto trades a 1st overall pick and loses Tyler Seguin.......
It turns out to be an eternal debate. Brian Burke is crucified...
Boston trades away the next coming ( Tyler Seguin ) and it doesn`t get ANY long term attention as it did with the leaf haters.....the leafs DIDNT even trade Seguin, they traded a draft pick, and get hammered by leaf haters......
question.....why is that ??
This is pretty obvious. It's a fact that there are more Leaf haters than Bruins haters. Simple as that. There are also more Leaf fans than Bruins fans, not just in real life, but more particularly around here. When one of "us" Leaf haters throws out a post roasting the Leafs for such a stupid trade, there's multiple rebuttals. If we did the same with the Bruins , which I'm certain there were posts about what a bad trade Boston made with Dallas, there are very few hard core Bruins fans here that will debate the issue or defend the move their team made.
This really is pretty obvious Duke and I'm surprised you had to ask. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2016 : 13:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
By the way Beans,
join in and post some more, i miss arguing with you , i really do.
We need another mega length leaf debate, really stirs the pot. lol
I have a question for every1 ??....read this first, question will be at the end.
Toronto trades a 1st overall pick and loses Tyler Seguin.......
It turns out to be an eternal debate. Brian Burke is crucified...
Boston trades away the next coming ( Tyler Seguin ) and it doesn`t get ANY long term attention as it did with the leaf haters.....the leafs DIDNT even trade Seguin, they traded a draft pick, and get hammered by leaf haters......
question.....why is that ??
To be respectful and answer all of your questions, there are a few key reasons why I don't spend as much time on this site as I once did. Primarily, it's based on the significantly reduced traffic on this board today compared to when I started. There once was around 50 regular posters and the conversations were insightful, passionate, and really diverse. It was nothing to see 15-20 threads active any given day with multiple posts in each thread. I would often make a post, then go to a different thread to make another post, and in the time of my 2nd post there would be multiple response to my first post.The action on this site was so busy at one point that we were able to have a 12 person Greatest of All Time draft and there was a waiting list of people wanting to get involved. Today, it's a busy day if there are 2 posts and there are maybe 5-6 active posters. It just died. Sadly. Not saying I wouldn't like it to get better and busier, but it's just not. Further, have the same debate with the same people about the same stuff has gotten stale. It's you and Slozo continuously telling me I am wrong with your opinions and me, continuously proving you are wrong with fact. It's tiring and I have grown bored with the same old same old.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2016 : 20:13:00
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| 2 great posts beans. Honest and non- bias. Thx |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2016 : 20:26:43
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Joshua I'm not picking fights, im asking a legitimate question. The leafs were crapped on for 3 years for trading ( unknown ) 1st Rd draft picks. Do you think the leafs would have traded away Tyler Seguin ??? Get real... He is the player every organization dreams of..... But I repeat , they traded draft picks.
BOSTON actually traded him away !!!! Big difference
Joshua , I really don't know what ur basing ur opinion on when you say Seguin wasn't projected to be that great. Where did this come from ?
Wasn't it still up in the air wether the oilers were taking Hall or Seguin even on draft day ? These 2 were so close even central scouting couldn't pick a clear number 1 first overall ?
Seguin was indeed always predicted for superstar status.
With regards to Bostons or any other teams cap issues..... You DONT trade away future superstars.... Unless.... You get a same age superstar back..... Resolve your cap issues in other ways , think this may have been the 1st step in Peter . C's firing
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2016 : 21:59:00
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I came well after the time there were 50regulars around here but I think there was prob still at least half that many and it was very enjoyable. I've avoided other sites where there are literally hundreds of posters as you can't keep up with more than a topic or two without getting lost!
Beans, I know your frustration, but your posting is sorely missed around here. You and I saw eye to eye on many things (I even got blamed once or twice by random "guests" for having "my head up your ass", lol) yet butted heads on quite a few as well. Sure, it got heated once or twice, esp when I was a newer contributer, but in the end I feel there was a mutual respect. For those who don't know, Beans took the time to personally email me when I was a newer member one time when we were in a major disagreement. He respectfully asked me to tone things down (related to some name calling and personal attacks) rather than calling me out as a moderator on the site. I think it made me a better contributor around here, though some may disagree still. Lol
Anyways, good to see you posting at least here and there Beans! The more the better! You know, no one wants you suddenly turning up a couple years from now after the Oilers win the draft lottery AGAIN and select A. Mathews and he and McDavid lead them to the cup!!!
ETA......now he's prob gonna pop on a yell at me for getting off topic. Sorry guys...... |
Edited by - Alex116 on 01/07/2016 22:00:16 |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 01/08/2016 : 11:56:16
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First point to take out of this post: As good as Seguin was projected to be in Halls class, he was routinely played in a bottom 6 role and called out by management a few times prior to the trade, due to personal stuff in his off time. He looked to be held back in Boston only receiving top 6 ice time due to injury for long stretches even though he excelled when deployed in a top 6 role. There was a legitimate health issue Seguin had where his longevity was being taken into consideration and he was coming due to a contract negotiation where he held all the cards except the fact Boston didn't have the space for him long term and thought he was too much of a risk to lay out the $ long term. Good for him that he proved Boston wrong and has gone on to have an excellent career, justifying the contract $ he commanded. I don't recall anyone projecting him to be at or close to the leader in points when he was traded, just an excellent 3rd year player with a good 2 way game and offensive gifts projected to be a top 6 player with 30 goal potential, but not a ppg producer like he has become. Again Kudos to him.
BTW that unknown draft pick Toronto gave up was several draft picks over a few years, plus the cap space Boston got was a win win scenario, especially because Kessel was injured at the time of the trade and the coming draft being considered one of the deepest in recent years to that point. The fact it is seen more of a epic fail is because of how far Toronto slid in the standing post the trade and how well those draft picks turned out to be for Boston, plus again at that time, Boston was cap strapped to the limit. Boston always seemed to be in this position due to the depth they had, which allowed the flexibility to be able to let go of guys like Kessel and Seguin, even though they are highly rated players and still be able to compete.
I feel like this is a history lesson repeated on this site many times which you should already know.
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
Joshua I'm not picking fights, im asking a legitimate question. The leafs were crapped on for 3 years for trading ( unknown ) 1st Rd draft picks. Do you think the leafs would have traded away Tyler Seguin ??? Get real... He is the player every organization dreams of..... But I repeat , they traded draft picks.
BOSTON actually traded him away !!!! Big difference
Joshua , I really don't know what ur basing ur opinion on when you say Seguin wasn't projected to be that great. Where did this come from ?
Wasn't it still up in the air wether the oilers were taking Hall or Seguin even on draft day ? These 2 were so close even central scouting couldn't pick a clear number 1 first overall ?
Seguin was indeed always predicted for superstar status.
With regards to Bostons or any other teams cap issues..... You DONT trade away future superstars.... Unless.... You get a same age superstar back..... Resolve your cap issues in other ways , think this may have been the 1st step in Peter . C's firing
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Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 01/08/2016 12:02:58 |
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If you were Leafs G.M. 
