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Guest5898
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 Posted - 11/12/2008 : 21:36:19
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Poll Question:
Headshots?
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brentrock2
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
571 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2008 : 11:07:51
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| I think he shouldn't be punished. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2008 : 11:18:22
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There is no option for "other" but that would be my choice.
Firstly, anyone that thinks that headshots can be removed from the game is out to lunch. As long as you have players who are 6'+ tall and others who are 5'6" or less, there will always be a risk of a head shot. A simple body check from Chara (6'7") on Gionta (5'6") is a headshot by simple physics.
Secondly, I think something is to be said about the statistics. Sure, a head shot that creates a significant injury on a player is never a good thing, but how often does it happen?? Think about this, there are 30 teams in the league, all with 19 (12 forwards, 6 defensemen, and a goalie) playing in 82 games. 19 players who play in 82 games on 30 teams is 46,740 man games played. How many concussions occur from head shots??? Bettman was on Off the Record the other day and I think he said it was something like 30. That means the likelihood of a head shot occuring is 0.06%. Pretty low. Even if you consider there are something like 800 players who will play at least one NHL game in a season, the likelihood of a player getting injured from a head shot is about 4%. Again, pretty low.
Unless people are prepare to remove all physical contact from the game of hockey, there will always be a risk of head shots. I am not saying I like the fact that players could get hurt and an intential head shot is something that needs to be handled on a case by case basis. However, it's impossible to take it out of the game unless all physical contact is outlawed in the game.
There are more head injuries caused each season by fighting than checks that make contact to the head, but no one is talking about taking fighting out of the game are they??
Something to think about. |
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Guest9836
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Posted - 11/13/2008 : 11:45:59
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Beans, I don't think the poll was meant to cover all contact to the head, but most likely blatant attacks to the head. As you pointed out, there will always be contact that can't be avoided.
On your second point about statistics, I have to point out that 4% is a fairly significant number. If you look at that as being 1 in 25 then what is being suggested is that pretty much 1 man on every team is going to get a possible career or life altering smack to the head. That's not great odds when you start the season, look around and think statistically one of the guys in the room is going to go down before the end of the season. I think you've also skewed the likelihood of a headshot occuring. Your number of 0.06% is the probability of a concussion occuring, not a headshot which would probably be much more frequent if you assume not all hits to the head result in a concussion.
Anyways I think it's pretty callous to say that 1 in 25 players health is not a good enough reason to address the issue. |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2008 : 12:00:57
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I believe if the player turns .. its his own fault just like van ryn .. a player cant just stop at mach 10.. protect yourself or dont play the game
Chicago Blackhawks GM
Jesus didn't tap. |
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Guest9836
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Posted - 11/13/2008 : 12:43:13
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Axey, a couple things: I don't think a player turns with the expectation that he's now safe cause no one will hit him with his back turned, like you said the game moves at "mach 10" so the player (on the bad end of the hit) is most likely just getting to a puck and making whatever play he feels he has to, his body is oriented towards the puck in that instance and sometimes that means it's away from an incoming checker who may have been 50 feet out when he started towards the puck. Also for the most part, NHLers are tough hard working professionals and are not going to risk their head for the possibility that a forechecker is going to lay off them. The other thing is that you're saying a player can't just stop at mach 10, that's a pile. In every game you see players flying into one end of the rink to chase down pucks or whatever and they may turn at the last moment to go after a puck or cycle, etc - they don't always check. Again these guys are trained professionals, their job includes mastering how to skate and to say they can't stop or turn away is ridiculous.
I'm not saying that there should be no contact (that would suck), but the devil's advocate in me is saying that the issue should at least be addressed more formally. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2008 : 13:50:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9836
Axey, a couple things: I don't think a player turns with the expectation that he's now safe cause no one will hit him with his back turned, like you said the game moves at "mach 10" so the player (on the bad end of the hit) is most likely just getting to a puck and making whatever play he feels he has to, his body is oriented towards the puck in that instance and sometimes that means it's away from an incoming checker who may have been 50 feet out when he started towards the puck. Also for the most part, NHLers are tough hard working professionals and are not going to risk their head for the possibility that a forechecker is going to lay off them. The other thing is that you're saying a player can't just stop at mach 10, that's a pile. In every game you see players flying into one end of the rink to chase down pucks or whatever and they may turn at the last moment to go after a puck or cycle, etc - they don't always check. Again these guys are trained professionals, their job includes mastering how to skate and to say they can't stop or turn away is ridiculous.
I'm not saying that there should be no contact (that would suck), but the devil's advocate in me is saying that the issue should at least be addressed more formally.
I think what Axey is trying to say(hopefully, correct me if I am wrong) is that all players have a responsibility to not put themselves in a compromising position.
Although the thing with Van Ryn was not a headshot per se, it has relevance. Van Ryn's was more of a hit from behind. Taking nothing away from Kostoplous, who could have and should have let up, Van Ryn also has a responsibility to not put himself in a vulnerable postion.
Ask yourself this question, have you ever seen Chris Pronger, Sergei Zubov, Scott Neidermeyer, or Nick Lidstrom get hit from behind?? These are guys that have been playing in the league for years and have chased down a iced puck thousands of times. Why do they not get hit from behind??? Maybe it has something to do with the fact they do not put themselves in the position for it to happen??
Food for thought. |
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Guest9836
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Posted - 11/13/2008 : 14:08:02
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I totally agree that player have to do their best to protect themselves, and avoid situations that compromise their safety. The players you listed have been top 10 players for a decade, and all other defencemen should definately try to learn from them. That being said not all players are going to have those 5 players level of skill, hockey sense/iq, etc. If they did then those guys wouldn't be top 5 defenceman.
My question, I guess, is where do you draw the of fault, because you have to believe 99% of the guys who got hit from behind didn't think they were doing something wrong in the split seconds before the hit, someone like Lidstrom might be able to always make the calculation and then position himself perfectly, other's not so much. But I bet a pretty high percentage of the guys who made the hit knew they shouldn't have taken the liberty, or knew they were going to injure the other player. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2008 : 16:47:52
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Head hits definetly have to be cracked down on hard. I know its hard to make a clean call on this because of size difference and speed of the game. But in all seriousness someone will end up a vegetable one day because of one these ridiculous hits. Case in point was Ruuttu the other night, blatant attempt at an elbow to the head. Should have gotten 30 game suspension and Laraque should just pummel the heck out him next time the Habs play Ottawa. I have no respect for a player that does that.
As for the VanRyn incident, a defencemens job is to play the puck, the forechecker should have enough respect to not complete the check when the Dman turns. I must be watching the wrong video because what i see is that VanRyn shows no intention at all of not playing the puck. Therefor Kotsopoulus should have known that he needed to back off and change is check. Don't blame the Dmen, it is the responsiblilty of the checker to not hit from behind. We all learned that the day we learned to hit..... |
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fanoleaf
Rookie
143 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2008 : 17:21:55
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its a physical game.
I would have to agree with Beans |
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TimHorton
Top Prospect
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2008 : 05:19:46
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A direct Quote from Bobby Orr, He says "If you hit a guy in the face with your stick by accident, you're going to get a penalty. Two minutes, four minutes, five minutes, something. If you go to bodycheck a guy and you hit him in the face or head, and injure him, that's legal? That's fair? That's not a penalty? I'm sorry, I don't think that is right. It should be a penalty."
Heres what I take away from that we have refs making these calls for high stick or boarding, but when it comes to something more serious like a hit in the head by a shoulder its okay cause it was a clean hit, the Refs need to be able to make better calls and give penalties for valid reasons, not just for minor offences. |
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Guest0811
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Posted - 11/14/2008 : 16:04:44
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| Keep your Fu*king Head up!!! every team has enforcers and if something goes down throw in the big boys to clean it up!! head shots would not happen if guys would keep their heads up.... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 08:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0811
Keep your Fu*king Head up!!! every team has enforcers and if something goes down throw in the big boys to clean it up!! head shots would not happen if guys would keep their heads up....
Although I'm not into the colorful language, this is as simple as it gets.
And that is one thing no one talked about before. The enforcer rule. Basically, guys are skating around without any real fear. Take a guy like Stevie Downie. If he took a beating from the tough guy on each team, he would learn very quickly not to play the way he does.
Maybe I am being naive, and maybe some of the older fellas could answer this. But I don't remember the 80's and 90's with the same kind of problems. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/15/2008 : 09:21:29
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| Beans, there is one name from the 80's that will sum up why guys like Steve Downie, Steve Ott, and Sean Avery could never have done in the 80's what they do now. DAVE SEMENKO!!! No explanation required!!!! If you want more names: McSorley, Probert, Grimson, Domi, and earlier in the 70's Dave "the Hammer" Schultz and Terry O'Reilly to name a few. These guys never thought twice about pummelling little weasels that took cheap head shots. They were allowed to police the game without that stupid instigator rule. |
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Guest0926
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Posted - 11/21/2008 : 06:56:09
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Just to get some fresh perspective on this, with everyone saying Van Ryn "put himself" in a vulnerable position, here's the story from the man himself:
"It really bugs me how people say you put yourself in a vulnerable position when they have never been in that position themselves," Van Ryn, a native of London, Ont., said last night, publicly commenting for the first time since the incident 13 days ago.
"It's amazing how these people can watch the replay five million times and comment on how I put myself in that situation. That's easy to say for someone watching a replay. But when it's actually happening, you only have a split second to make a decision. I didn't hear anyone saying: 'Look, he's about to put himself in a vulnerable position' when I was going down chasing after the puck.
"I'm a puck-moving defenceman. That's what I was attempting to do when I got hit. I don't like just firing the puck blindly around the boards."
One second he was looking at the puck; the next, he was seeing stars.
http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/mike_zeisberger/2008/11/21/7484586-sun.html
there's the link from today's paper.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2008 : 11:30:07
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In my opinion, four simple rule changes could fix a fair portion of the injuries caused by questionable checks.
1. Modiy the instigator rule, to allow a teammate to intiate if a dangerous hit is thrown, without additional penalization, while keeping the penalty for those who initiate after a clean hit, like we are seeing too much of lately. These are judgmental calls that the referee needs to make, but is that not what they are there for?
2. Get rid of that silly geometric goalie zone, and let the goaltenders play the dump ins at will, and at their own peril. This would have fixed the Van Ryn deal for example.
3. Institute no-touch icing, get rid of those useless and dangerous puck chases into the end boeards at full speed, totally unnecessary for the risk involved.
4. Standardize the equipment to get away from the gladitorial gear that these guys wear now...they are all hard plastic outers on the shoulder and elbow pads, why? Can't they cover the plastic with a layer of padding instead? I would think a shoulder thrown would then feel more like a boxing glove, then a 2 x 4.
I also think the league needs to focus on the true infractions more and less on the 'part of the game' situations. Brandon Sutter's concussion, while still dangerous, was his own doing, reaching for the puck with his head down like that. That's part of the game. The others need to handled as they are. Disciplinary review and subsequent suspension if warranted. But I think point number 1 above, would eventaully ferret these situations out themselves.
In the heat of the game there are always going to be questionable hits thrown, nature of the beast and all, but players need to take the responsibily back themselves and police the offenders.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2008 : 12:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
In my opinion, four simple rule changes could fix a fair portion of the injuries caused by questionable checks.
1. Modiy the instigator rule, to allow a teammate to intiate if a dangerous hit is thrown, without additional penalization, while keeping the penalty for those who initiate after a clean hit, like we are seeing too much of lately. These are judgmental calls that the referee needs to make, but is that not what they are there for?
2. Get rid of that silly geometric goalie zone, and let the goaltenders play the dump ins at will, and at their own peril. This would have fixed the Van Ryn deal for example.
3. Institute no-touch icing, get rid of those useless and dangerous puck chases into the end boeards at full speed, totally unnecessary for the risk involved.
4. Standardize the equipment to get away from the gladitorial gear that these guys wear now...they are all hard plastic outers on the shoulder and elbow pads, why? Can't they cover the plastic with a layer of padding instead? I would think a shoulder thrown would then feel more like a boxing glove, then a 2 x 4.
I also think the league needs to focus on the true infractions more and less on the 'part of the game' situations. Brandon Sutter's concussion, while still dangerous, was his own doing, reaching for the puck with his head down like that. That's part of the game. The others need to handled as they are. Disciplinary review and subsequent suspension if warranted. But I think point number 1 above, would eventaully ferret these situations out themselves.
In the heat of the game there are always going to be questionable hits thrown, nature of the beast and all, but players need to take the responsibily back themselves and police the offenders.
I totally agree with this post Fat Elvis, especially the part of the quote I put in bold. I think it was on one of the sports talkshows about that little area that goalies can't touch the puck. If this is removed then Toskala plays the puck and VanRyn doesn't get hurt. Same thing for the hit on Patrice Bergeron and more. I also was reading that the NHLPA is going to come out with some recommendations for head hits and hits from behind. I will see if I can find the article and post the link for all to read. |
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J-Dog
Top Prospect
Canada
39 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2008 : 18:40:13
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I'll second those rule changes any day fat_elvis_rocked. Well said. I liked the touch icing idea. Needs to change as quickly as possible.
-J-Dog |
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Headshots 
