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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
 Posted - 12/04/2008 : 15:02:51
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Poll Question:
Note to Admin: Feel free to erase or block this topic if you feel it has no business on this forum I fully understand it is not hockey related and I am just searching for a broadened opinion on this subject as I feel it has a huge effect on everyone participating on this site.
How do you feel about the Governor Generals decision to suspend parliament for a period of 7 weeks, and do you feel we would be better off with a coalition or our elected Prime Minister Steven Harper?
Pasty
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 15:23:54
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While technically constitutional, it is completely undemocratic to form a coalition government in Canada.
Especially the way Mr. Dion wants it. You will have an incompetent Liberal leader, who gets criticized as much by his own party as his opponents, being a puppet that gets yanked around by a socialist and a seperatist.
If you think we have political instability now, just wait. These three parties are power hungry. They have no agenda other than to get into power, and would have done this even if the budget had pumped 100 billion dollars in stimulus packages.
By doing this, the opposition is just proving that they don't even care enough about Canadians to keep government going during the time we need goverment the most.
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
Edited by - Alex on 12/04/2008 15:24:04 |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2008 : 21:29:16
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Well this is definitely an interesting thing to bring up on this site. I do however think that it should be allowed to stay up because I completely agree with pasty7 that it will have an effect on a lot of people.
While I do not support the the coalition because I feel that it is not democratic, I at the same time just want this to end. We are in a period where the whole world is having economic struggles. Not having a government, or it being on hold, is a terrible thing.
I also feel that this will discourage people from voting in future elections. What is the point in voting, when the party that was elected can just be overthrown by the other parties simply joining forces? That does not seem democratic at all. We have some problems to iron out here in Canada with our political system. |
Edited by - ED11 on 12/04/2008 21:31:05 |
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Guest6648
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Posted - 12/05/2008 : 00:13:58
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"While technically constitutional, it is completely undemocratic to form a coalition government in Canada."
Not really, technically more people voted the three of the Liberals, NDP and Bloc combined than for the Conservatives alone. There are more people in this country against Harper and the Conservatives than for them so Harper and the Conservatives are not really representative of of what the majority of Canadians really want.
I do not like Dion but I am ecstatic about a coalition! Each party will bring something unique to the country, the parties will be forced to cooperate and allow compromise and collectively that is tremendous for Canada! As opposed to a single party that would be self-serving and pass whatever bill it wanted to pass.
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Guest6648
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Posted - 12/05/2008 : 00:18:40
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"the opposition is just proving that they don't even care enough about Canadians to keep government going during the time we need goverment the most."
It is Harper that prorogued government, delaying things until January, not the coalition/opposition. The matter could have been resolved already if Harper would have accepted the inevidible. |
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Guest9277
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Posted - 12/05/2008 : 05:22:53
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| There is a lot NOT to like about this coalition, even though I support it, but it is hard to criticize it for being power-hungry if you support Stephen Harper. If anything comes of this I hope at least Harper learns his lesson that he cannot do whatever he wanted when only 40% of Canada support him. |
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MSC
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
601 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 05:51:31
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| Admin, as much as I have to say about this I'd have to suggest locking this one immediatly. If you think hockey arguements leads to personal attacks and violations of the forum rules imagine what a political chat would lead to. It already took every bit of my will power not to bust guest 6648s chops. |
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J-Dog
Top Prospect
Canada
39 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 06:03:06
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I agree with guest 9277. I'm taking an economics class and this was a big subject in the last few sessions. IMHO, what happened is that not only was the budget completely underfunded, (which is weird no-one between the PM and the finance minister Flaherty really did anything to change that) Harper wanted to give less money to the provinces, cut spending and cut job creating programs. There was an uproar, but it was still stable, the thinking was probably that,if we have a surplus, we'll have more money to spend on the economic crisis.
People were still relatively calm, then Harper shot himself in the foot:
-He wanted to eliminate funding in the other political parties. Call me crazy, but isn't eliminating the competition a dictatorship? We just had an election, everyone's broke except the conservatives (funding from oil companies + being in parliament), why make everyone hate you more?
-Secondly the Conservatives are and have always been against strikes and Union's in general. But to try and eliminate it in the state they had put the opposing parties (all pro-union) is way to bold, and aggressive. This is something that might have worked in a majority gvt. but with all that was happening... no.. just, no.
So to conclude, I think that Harper is just too aggressive as a PM, he doesn't seem to want to cooperate with other parties ( which he said he would do in the governor general's speech) or what the people think. I know, in his position things probably have a very different perspective, and you can't listen and help everyone at a time. But I still think he should have thought of Canada first, instead of himself. A coallition would be the only solution, it is only brought up because of Harper's decisions, not because they just wanted to.
And on a side note, Dion is leaving soon, in July or something, so whoever will win the liberal party will be "PM" by default in a way.
Candidates so far are:
-Bob Rae
-Michel Ignatieff
-Gerard Kennedy
-John Manley
-Frank Mckenna
Rae and Ignatieff are top candidates so far I think.
-J-Dog |
Edited by - J-Dog on 12/05/2008 06:04:55 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 12:23:48
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Ok in an effort to bring this in some way back to hockey, I offer the following parody. I received this email from a friend, don't know where he got it from, but it made me laugh pretty hard!
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NHL Coalition
Having conceded that the Detroit Red Wings technically won the 2008 Stanley Cup, the Pittsburgh Penguins, Philadelphia Flyers and Dallas Stars nevertheless have formed a coalition demanding the Wings be stripped of the cup, and that they be awarded a three way ownership of the league title. Rational for their decision revolves around their total combined scoring in the 2008 Semi-Finals, their total share of season ticket holders versus the Detroit Redwings and their horror at discovering the Detroit Redwings are using a more cost effective and efficient but non-union made Silver polish to keep the Stanley Cup gleaming.
The three teams are being assisted in their bid to overturn the traditional results by members of the Quebec Hockey League who have no real interest in the success of the NHL in general but sense an opportunity to demand Zamboni's and other critical equipment be manufactured in Quebec. Player representatives, Team Owners and Nike are expected to submit their proposals to Don Cherry in the next few days. Fans and ticket holders are neither being asked or allowed a voice in the final decision. Hockey pool organizers who have already paid out funds to the winners of the ’08 cup final are outraged and said to be staging rallies across the country this weekend.
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Oilers 4ever
Top Prospect
3 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 13:58:40
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Harper tried the same thing when Martin was in power and had a minority government, so he should not be surprised that the other parties are doing this now. Harper has screwed himself in Quebec and he will never be able to form a majority government. Harper has lost the confidence of the Conservative party and he should call another election and let us decide. I feel Harper is to much of a control freak to be the PM, he spends all his time making sure that his MP's don't say the wrong thing and approving what they say. He promised a more open political system but has completely done the opposite and made it more closed off.
"Canada will be a strong country when Canadians of all provinces feel at home in all parts of the country, and when they feel that all Canada belongs to them.”
Pierre Elliott Trudeau |
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Guest6555
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Posted - 12/05/2008 : 16:26:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MSC
Admin, as much as I have to say about this I'd have to suggest locking this one immediatly. If you think hockey arguements leads to personal attacks and violations of the forum rules imagine what a political chat would lead to. It already took every bit of my will power not to bust guest 6648s chops.
Then Guest 6648 suggests you maturely remove yourself from the debate plain and simple. When I do not like a show that is on TV I change the channel, that does not mean other people watching a different TV should not be allowed to watch that show just because I do not like the show. You disagree with my opinion and all of a sudden you need to resort to, however harmelss physically, violent words?
It is possible to have a calm and mature conversation about any topic. |
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Guest6555
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Posted - 12/05/2008 : 16:31:41
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If admin wants to close the topic because it is not a hockey topic, I accept that.
But if they close it because one person disagrees with another and needs to resort to violent references, I would disagree with that. That would only be empowering violence. |
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Guest6555
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Posted - 12/05/2008 : 16:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Ok in an effort to bring this in some way back to hockey, I offer the following parody. I received this email from a friend, don't know where he got it from, but it made me laugh pretty hard!
---------------------------------
NHL Coalition
Having conceded that the Detroit Red Wings technically won the 2008 Stanley Cup, the Pittsburgh Penguins, Philadelphia Flyers and Dallas Stars nevertheless have formed a coalition demanding the Wings be stripped of the cup, and that they be awarded a three way ownership of the league title. Rational for their decision revolves around their total combined scoring in the 2008 Semi-Finals, their total share of season ticket holders versus the Detroit Redwings and their horror at discovering the Detroit Redwings are using a more cost effective and efficient but non-union made Silver polish to keep the Stanley Cup gleaming.
The three teams are being assisted in their bid to overturn the traditional results by members of the Quebec Hockey League who have no real interest in the success of the NHL in general but sense an opportunity to demand Zamboni's and other critical equipment be manufactured in Quebec. Player representatives, Team Owners and Nike are expected to submit their proposals to Don Cherry in the next few days. Fans and ticket holders are neither being asked or allowed a voice in the final decision. Hockey pool organizers who have already paid out funds to the winners of the ’08 cup final are outraged and said to be staging rallies across the country this weekend.
Silver polish funny. :)
But it is not the same thing. Detroit squared off head to head against each one of Dallas and Pittsburgh and beat them. And because Philly lost to Pittsburgh they did not earn the right to play Detroit head to head.
The Conservatives did not square off one at a time against any of the Liberals, NDP and Bloc. And its not like the fans voted for the Wings to be Cup Champions.
Furthermore the current rules in Canadian politics perfectly allow for a coalition so it is fair game. The current NHL rules do not allow for coalitions to overthrow Cup champions, therefore, unfair game.
In a democracy majority wins, the Conservatives do not have that, so sorry try again. Harper felt is was necessary to waste our money a few weeks ago than at least keep going until there is a true majority or step aside
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2008 : 17:16:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6555
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Ok in an effort to bring this in some way back to hockey, I offer the following parody. I received this email from a friend, don't know where he got it from, but it made me laugh pretty hard!
---------------------------------
NHL Coalition
Having conceded that the Detroit Red Wings technically won the 2008 Stanley Cup, the Pittsburgh Penguins, Philadelphia Flyers and Dallas Stars nevertheless have formed a coalition demanding the Wings be stripped of the cup, and that they be awarded a three way ownership of the league title. Rational for their decision revolves around their total combined scoring in the 2008 Semi-Finals, their total share of season ticket holders versus the Detroit Redwings and their horror at discovering the Detroit Redwings are using a more cost effective and efficient but non-union made Silver polish to keep the Stanley Cup gleaming.
The three teams are being assisted in their bid to overturn the traditional results by members of the Quebec Hockey League who have no real interest in the success of the NHL in general but sense an opportunity to demand Zamboni's and other critical equipment be manufactured in Quebec. Player representatives, Team Owners and Nike are expected to submit their proposals to Don Cherry in the next few days. Fans and ticket holders are neither being asked or allowed a voice in the final decision. Hockey pool organizers who have already paid out funds to the winners of the ’08 cup final are outraged and said to be staging rallies across the country this weekend.
Silver polish funny. :)
But it is not the same thing. Detroit squared off head to head against each one of Dallas and Pittsburgh and beat them. And because Philly lost to Pittsburgh they did not earn the right to play Detroit head to head.
The Conservatives did not square off one at a time against any of the Liberals, NDP and Bloc. And its not like the fans voted for the Wings to be Cup Champions.
Furthermore the current rules in Canadian politics perfectly allow for a coalition so it is fair game. The current NHL rules do not allow for coalitions to overthrow Cup champions, therefore, unfair game....
okeedokee....I was just posting a joke, I didn't imagine there was actually a direct, one to one, correlation.  |
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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 15:50:18
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bahaha I think the sharks could take this NHL coalition this season. they are unBEATABLE they are single handedly keeping me in my pool (thornton,marleau, boyle).
Getting back to my point (I m the artist formerly known as Guest 9277), I think this is just a sticky sitution for all involved. Stephen Harper is a terrible PM but the coalition is tremendously unpopular. As much as I'd love to see the NDP with some more say as to how the country is run, I am starting to think the best thing for the country is for the conservatives to get back to governing, hopefully with some compromise. Of course, that is about as likely as Dion learning english...
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/06/2008 : 18:46:49
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NDP turns a recession into a depression. Last time I checked, we were not a socialist country. We should do everything in our power to keep it that way.
The Liberals needs someone smart leading them and to bide their time. If the recession lasts longer than 1 year, a smart Liberal leader can do a confidence vote next budget (2010) and more than like gain a majority government in an election.
Like him or hate him, Harper is the best guy today to run the country. Well, his is the most stable party, let's put it that way.
Above all of this, my issue with the colalition was that they wanted to just throw money at an economic problem. Harper wanted to use a strategic plan to not waste the money for a stimulus. If you ask me, that's the right way to go.
Regardless, we can put this arguement to rest until the end of January. By that time, there's a good chance there won't be a coalition to speak of anyway.
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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 06:47:12
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| Put me in the "hate him" category, but you are probably right. The NDP is more than likely not the best thing for the country at the moment, as much as I would liek to believe it. Tough economic times call for stability; something the coalition clearly does not have. |
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Guest0965
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Posted - 12/07/2008 : 17:37:02
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
Ok in an effort to bring this in some way back to hockey, I offer the following parody. I received this email from a friend, don't know where he got it from, but it made me laugh pretty hard!
---------------------------------
NHL Coalition
Having conceded that the Detroit Red Wings technically won the 2008 Stanley Cup, the Pittsburgh Penguins, Philadelphia Flyers and Dallas Stars nevertheless have formed a coalition demanding the Wings be stripped of the cup, and that they be awarded a three way ownership of the league title. Rational for their decision revolves around their total combined scoring in the 2008 Semi-Finals, their total share of season ticket holders versus the Detroit Redwings and their horror at discovering the Detroit Redwings are using a more cost effective and efficient but non-union made Silver polish to keep the Stanley Cup gleaming.
The three teams are being assisted in their bid to overturn the traditional results by members of the Quebec Hockey League who have no real interest in the success of the NHL in general but sense an opportunity to demand Zamboni's and other critical equipment be manufactured in Quebec. Player representatives, Team Owners and Nike are expected to submit their proposals to Don Cherry in the next few days. Fans and ticket holders are neither being asked or allowed a voice in the final decision. Hockey pool organizers who have already paid out funds to the winners of the ’08 cup final are outraged and said to be staging rallies across the country this weekend.
You forgot to mention that fearing to lose the cup if the other teams combine, Detroit requests that the league be suspended so that they won't lose the cup. Then Bettman grants Detroits wish until Detroit can wait out the other parties until their united front stalls.
In all seriousness I think all are parties are at fault. Conservatives for being too scared to lose power and delaying the inevitable. The coalition for being too forceful in their willingness to defeat Harper (though I really despise him probably as much as Sean Avery). The Governor General for being completely spineless and allowing Parliament to be delayed for over two months while the economy goes in the tank.
Other than the Bloc being well the Bloc, I don't think they have really done anything bad in this fiasco. They are not part of the coalition. They like most canadians are anti-Harper so have no issues with taking down the ruling government.
Rick Mercer did a pretty good spiel on this. If only I can find that link.
I think stimulating the economy by spending on infrastructure is a great idea. How about a plan to build 3 refineries one in Alberta, Ontario and the East Coast (probably NF)? Canada has not had a new refinery in 30+ years. Once the price of oil rises again, we would be laughing. Also the deficit should not exceed $3B per year and no more than $10B total until the economy recovers. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 11:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6648
"While technically constitutional, it is completely undemocratic to form a coalition government in Canada."
Not really, technically more people voted the three of the Liberals, NDP and Bloc combined than for the Conservatives alone. There are more people in this country against Harper and the Conservatives than for them so Harper and the Conservatives are not really representative of of what the majority of Canadians really want.
I do not like Dion but I am ecstatic about a coalition! Each party will bring something unique to the country, the parties will be forced to cooperate and allow compromise and collectively that is tremendous for Canada! As opposed to a single party that would be self-serving and pass whatever bill it wanted to pass.
I wish people would stop talking about the coalition as if they were one block. More people voted for Harper than any other leader or party. Period. Get over that fact. Further, we are NOT in a recession, therefore Harper probably had the right tack in the budget update. And that;s all this was, it was not a full blown budget. Harper back off what the other parties claimed was the problem, and yet that wasn't good enough for them. There is also talk that this coalition was being negotiated BEFORE the last election. If that truly is the case then this is absolutely undemocratic as that should have been brought up during the election. Anyway, lets go to an election as all indications that I have seen lead to a Conservative majority. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 11:16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by J-Dog
I agree with guest 9277. I'm taking an economics class and this was a big subject in the last few sessions. IMHO, what happened is that not only was the budget completely underfunded, (which is weird no-one between the PM and the finance minister Flaherty really did anything to change that) Harper wanted to give less money to the provinces, cut spending and cut job creating programs. There was an uproar, but it was still stable, the thinking was probably that,if we have a surplus, we'll have more money to spend on the economic crisis.
People were still relatively calm, then Harper shot himself in the foot:
-He wanted to eliminate funding in the other political parties. Call me crazy, but isn't eliminating the competition a dictatorship? We just had an election, everyone's broke except the conservatives (funding from oil companies + being in parliament), why make everyone hate you more?
-Secondly the Conservatives are and have always been against strikes and Union's in general. But to try and eliminate it in the state they had put the opposing parties (all pro-union) is way to bold, and aggressive. This is something that might have worked in a majority gvt. but with all that was happening... no.. just, no.
So to conclude, I think that Harper is just too aggressive as a PM, he doesn't seem to want to cooperate with other parties ( which he said he would do in the governor general's speech) or what the people think. I know, in his position things probably have a very different perspective, and you can't listen and help everyone at a time. But I still think he should have thought of Canada first, instead of himself. A coallition would be the only solution, it is only brought up because of Harper's decisions, not because they just wanted to.
And on a side note, Dion is leaving soon, in July or something, so whoever will win the liberal party will be "PM" by default in a way.
Candidates so far are:
-Bob Rae
-Michel Ignatieff
-Gerard Kennedy
-John Manley
-Frank Mckenna
Rae and Ignatieff are top candidates so far I think.
-J-Dog
Buddy, then you need to go and brush up on your classes because you have some of your facts wrong. Corporate donations are not allowed, therefore your comment about their funding coming from oil companies is wrong. Second, you state that they get more money because they are in parliament, which is also wrong. Every party is subject to the same rules: they each get $1.95 for each vote they garner. Where the Conservatives have the advantage is that they have a good grassroots funding campaign going on where they go to individual supporters for donations, subject to a maximum $1000 each. They are remarkably effective in doing this.
My point is that there is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping the other parties from doing the exact same thing. They are just lazy! And for anybody that is curious, these rules were actually implemented by the Liberals under our good buddy, Jean Chetien. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 11:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Oilers 4ever
Harper tried the same thing when Martin was in power and had a minority government, so he should not be surprised that the other parties are doing this now. Harper has screwed himself in Quebec and he will never be able to form a majority government. Harper has lost the confidence of the Conservative party and he should call another election and let us decide. I feel Harper is to much of a control freak to be the PM, he spends all his time making sure that his MP's don't say the wrong thing and approving what they say. He promised a more open political system but has completely done the opposite and made it more closed off.
"Canada will be a strong country when Canadians of all provinces feel at home in all parts of the country, and when they feel that all Canada belongs to them.”
Pierre Elliott Trudeau
I think you are missing something because the country is ready to hand Harper a majority. Now, I don't know how you think that Harper screwed himself in Quebec, reconizing them as a nation and all, but perhaps Haprper has leared a lesson that all PM's come to learn and that is that Quebec will NEVER be happy. The more that the are handed, the more they want. And this favortism that is being foisted on Quebec is really starting to fuel resentment across the rest of Canada, starting with the bilingual waste (in terms of dollars and talent), and the bill 101 double standard.
I would also like to point out that there seems to be this myth that you need Quebec in an election, and while it helps, that truly is a myth. It is Ontario, with 105 seats that actually holds the hammer and Harper has made serious inroads into this province. Don't believe me? The Liberals had majorities mainly with the backing of Ontario and nary a seat in Quebec. If you have Ontario, you have the hammer. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 11:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by goleafsgosjnb
bahaha I think the sharks could take this NHL coalition this season. they are unBEATABLE they are single handedly keeping me in my pool (thornton,marleau, boyle).
Getting back to my point (I m the artist formerly known as Guest 9277), I think this is just a sticky sitution for all involved. Stephen Harper is a terrible PM but the coalition is tremendously unpopular. As much as I'd love to see the NDP with some more say as to how the country is run, I am starting to think the best thing for the country is for the conservatives to get back to governing, hopefully with some compromise. Of course, that is about as likely as Dion learning english...
Stephen Harper is a terrible PM? Compared to who? Do you remember the garbage antics of Jean Chretien and Paul Martin? These were the guys who couldn't make a decision without floating 50 trial ballons first. I'd take Harper head and shoulders above either of these two clowns anyday. |
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Guest7816
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Posted - 12/08/2008 : 14:26:59
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You know this is a really good topic to read. A lot of people bring up a lot of good points. First off i'm from Quebec and believe me when i say the politics here are full of sh*t!! The politicians here are so self absorbed with themselves that they don't even know what they want. Truth be told i have always supported the liberal party since the beginning however ever since Chretien resigned i had switched my support to Harper and his conservative party. Not because he's a great guy or i agree with all his ideas... but at least his party knows how to keep it together. The Bloc only care about themselves, the NDP just give me that sneaky vibe, and the Liberals... well let's just say i wouldn't let Stephane Dion run a drive through car wash!!!! Now even if this coalition happens, and Harper gets booted out your pretty much telling 40% of Canada to go F*ck themselves and there vote!! Yes a minority government sucks, However Canada has spoken and that's who they placed in charged! Maybe not to have free reign but 40% of Canada can't be all wrong!!! If the coalition gets into power, The liberals would step into power with Dion at the helm, so even if he does step down in May like he's supposed to and a new liberal leader takes over than that means you'll have a prime minister running the country who wasn't even remotely a candidate to be elected!!! hell why don't i just throw my name in there and run to. or any of you for that matter! since it seems anyone can just walk in and run the country if they don't get there way...... The liberals should stop this coalition get there house in order than rethink there plans... Kick out Dion, bring in young Trudeau he may not have the experience but at least he knows his ass from his elbow!!!!!
p.s. on a hockey note i am a habs fan through and through and so far i'm not very impressed with there performance! Juggling the lines and inconsistant play, horrible.... at least Latendresse hasn't played lately and they brought up someone who knows what there doing (refering to D'Agostini). |
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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect
Canada
98 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 14:29:36
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I'm glad you got that off your chest! :)
I guess calling him a terrible PM is my opinion. I am not very well versed in Canadian politics, I am too young to remember exactly what Chretien and Martin were all about (cept for Chretien choking that dude who pied him, that was pretty sweet).
However, it is FACT that his stance on the environment is weaker than the other parties (Kyoto??), it is a FACT that his punitive stance on criminal justice flies in the face of any research on criminal behavior (it is not meant to work, but it seems to please any layperson at first glance) and it is a FACT that he is the most polarizing figure in Canadian politics.
Does being hated by 65% of the electorate make you a terrible leader? No, I suppose not. But what a good leader would do now is to find a way to bring a divided country together. I hope he can do it, but I don't have much faith... |
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Guest0965
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Posted - 12/08/2008 : 15:01:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
A bunch of Conservative rhetoric..
Baaaa. Baaaa. Baaa. There goes the mindless Conservative sheeps. Likely a Conservative employees and even likelier one of the many ordered to beat the gates of the Governor General at 6am and cheer when Harper makes an appearance. Way to stroke your ego with paid employees Stevie. Made you feel good that you had to pay people to cheer for you huh?
Odin's message brought to you by the mindless sheeps of the Conservative government.
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 17:17:35
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Those mindless Conservative sheep have the wear with all to not join forces with a Separatist Group, a Socialist group, or a group who do not even believe in their own leader.
Disagree with the Conservatives, disagree with Harper, but I can not fathom how anyone can think that the leaders of the Opposition (Layton, Dion, Duceppe) are more capable of leading a nation through good times let alone challenging economic times is not thinking of the good of the country.
And for Goodness sake, the potential leader of the Coalition could not even hold on to power of his own party let alone the Coalition or the country.
Thinking as bipartisan as I can, supporting no specific party, I would like the leader of this country to show and have not only stability but the ability to lead through the next 1-2 years with the strength to not completely sell the future to hold of a recession that could become a media driven depression. The only guy in the game today with the things I am looking for is Mr. Harper. Unless Mr. Ignatieff gains Liberal Power, then there are two legitimate leaders. If they (meaning the Liberals) truly care about the Canadian people as they say they do, the next leader will work with the current government until at least 2011 and then go back to the polls. At the very least, give the current government a fair opportunity to table a budget. If the budget it garbage, then by all means toss the Conservatives out. But not on the “guess” of what the budget would be based on an address.
All this garbage of the past few weeks is nothing but opportunistic politics that has nothing to do with stability for the Canadian Public.
In my humble, sheep like opinion.
Back to hockey! |
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Guest0965
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Posted - 12/08/2008 : 18:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Those mindless Conservative sheep have the wear with all to not join forces with a Separatist Group, a Socialist group, or a group who do not even believe in their own leader.
Thinking as bipartisan as I can, supporting no specific party, I would like the leader of this country to show and have not only stability but the ability to lead through the next 1-2 years with the strength to not completely sell the future to hold of a recession that could become a media driven depression. The only guy in the game today with the things I am looking for is Mr. Harper. Unless Mr. Ignatieff gains Liberal Power, then there are two legitimate leaders. If they (meaning the Liberals) truly care about the Canadian people as they say they do, the next leader will work with the current government until at least 2011 and then go back to the polls. At the very least, give the current government a fair opportunity to table a budget. If the budget it garbage, then by all means toss the Conservatives out. But not on the “guess” of what the budget would be based on an address.
All this garbage of the past few weeks is nothing but opportunistic politics that has nothing to do with stability for the Canadian Public.
Beans those were least like sheep opinions I've seen. You come up with something on your own rather than spieling the same rhetoric as the Conservative line. See my post above, I am neither coalition, Bloc nor PC.
Also remember, the coalition does not include the Bloc. The only thing the Bloc has agreed to is not to vote the coalition down.
I agree with you Canada has no leader. In Stevie, you have a scared animal you refuses to give up power yet calls others power hungry. Stephane has a little communication problem and hence you can't lead if you can't tell people what you are thinking. Jack is a small fish who uses the big fish to move himself up the food chain. Gilles who's agenda is limited to Quebec (note not Separatist - but Sovereigntist don't let Stevie mislead you). And let's not forget Michaelie who is just a pretty figure head (with a ~$150M annual spending budget) too spineless to use the powers vested in her to stop this fiasco.
If I vote today, I would not be looking at who would be my PM based on the party I vote for but who is best for me in my riding. That right now is a Liberal in my ridiing.
So get Stevie, Stephane, Jack, Gilles (unfortunately we can't boot Michaelie) out of there and get some people in there that can lead. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 18:42:55
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I completely disagree with anyone who says Harper is the best of the worst. He is the best of the best.
Stephen Harper is just unfortunate enough to be getting dragged down in power hungy politics when its the policies that should be focused on. This is a man that has delivered Canada into the best economic shape of any G8 country, I believe even G20. He has kept Canada out of a recession, given back in taxes to help Canadians shoulder the load, and refused to do the ''sexy thing'' to look good in front of the camera. Instead, he does things rationally, not making any panicy decisions like throwing around billions and putting himself in debt.
Stephen Harper is a genius who has to deal with a bunch of idiots.
Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame |
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Guest0965
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Posted - 12/09/2008 : 04:10:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex
I completely disagree with anyone who says Harper is the best of the worst. He is the best of the best.
He is the worst of the worst. He is mini Bush. Controlling, manipulative and a liar. See we will have a more open government statement. This government is the most secretive by far of any.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Stephen Harper is just unfortunate enough to be getting dragged down in power hungy politics when its the policies that should be focused on. This is a man that has delivered Canada into the best economic shape of any G8 country, I believe even G20. He has kept Canada out of a recession, given back in taxes to help Canadians shoulder the load, and refused to do the ''sexy thing'' to look good in front of the camera. Instead, he does things rationally, not making any panicy decisions like throwing around billions and putting himself in debt.
Might want to go back into history boy. The state of the economy was given to him on a silver platter by the liberal government. Stevie has nothing to do with the state of the current economy (in relation to the rest of the world) and the banking regulations.
He is more power hungry than the coalition combined. He is scared to lose power so he retains it by putting off Parliament.
He doesn't try to look good for the camera? Are you kidding me? Didn't you hear, he ordered his people to stand at the gates of the GG to cheer for him so that the cameras (and the uninformed public) would think that people cheering for him.
Oh have we forgotten, hey Maxime, nice girlfriend.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Stephen Harper is a genius who has to deal with a bunch of idiots.
Stevie is an idiot who thinks he is surrounded and supported by geniuses. Unlike Beans, Alex your post is the mindless sheep bleating brought to you by the Conservative rhetoric.
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Guest6196
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Posted - 12/09/2008 : 06:18:44
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My Opinion
Layton- Best Business man
Dion- Most Intelligent- Don't let the english barrier fool you.
Harper- Power hungry and abrasive- These are great qualities for a PM.
Choosing from my heart i would want the liberals in power, but i think Canada should stay with the Gov we have until we know the complete impact the recession will have, and how long it has been going on for. Unfortunately the western world economy is driven by the USA. As we all know now the USA has been in a recession for all of 2008. It may come out soon it has been longer than all of 2008, and more and more nations are gearing up for, or already in a recession.
Anyone who thinks we are not already in a recession must not remember the 80's. I was in AB in the 80's and people never seen it comming. The bigger the boom the longer it will take to show the true impacts of a recession but the bigger the valley. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 09:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by goleafsgosjnb
I'm glad you got that off your chest! :)
I guess calling him a terrible PM is my opinion. I am not very well versed in Canadian politics, I am too young to remember exactly what Chretien and Martin were all about (cept for Chretien choking that dude who pied him, that was pretty sweet).
However, it is FACT that his stance on the environment is weaker than the other parties (Kyoto??), it is a FACT that his punitive stance on criminal justice flies in the face of any research on criminal behavior (it is not meant to work, but it seems to please any layperson at first glance) and it is a FACT that he is the most polarizing figure in Canadian politics.
Does being hated by 65% of the electorate make you a terrible leader? No, I suppose not. But what a good leader would do now is to find a way to bring a divided country together. I hope he can do it, but I don't have much faith...
First off, please leave the global warming debate out of this. That is junk science that is far from proven. For example, Mars, among other solar bodies are also warming. How many SUV's are on Mars? One of the most powerful greenhouse gasses out there is actually water vapour. What are we supposed to do? Turn off the oceans? Further, the current trend is actually cooling since 1998, but nobody ever mentions that.
You say that 65% don't like Harper, and that is complete bunk. Actually, 62% voted for FOUR other parties. Further, before the election, polls stated that fully 50% of the electorate, across all parties thought Harper was the best leader. But the Conservatives garnered the most votes. PERIOD. The conservatives got 37.63%, the liberals got 26.24%, the NDP got 18.2%, the BQ got 9.97% and the greens got 6.8%. There you go! like it or lump it, the Conservatives won.
Also, before you go blaming Harper for Kyoto, you better do a little research on how far the Liberals actually got on this. I bet you're going to be surprised! |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 09:27:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
A bunch of Conservative rhetoric..
Baaaa. Baaaa. Baaa. There goes the mindless Conservative sheeps. Likely a Conservative employees and even likelier one of the many ordered to beat the gates of the Governor General at 6am and cheer when Harper makes an appearance. Way to stroke your ego with paid employees Stevie. Made you feel good that you had to pay people to cheer for you huh?
Odin's message brought to you by the mindless sheeps of the Conservative government.
Nothing of the sort actually, you little marketers dream you. Hook, line and sinker. Try to think for yourself for a change... |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 09:34:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
I completely disagree with anyone who says Harper is the best of the worst. He is the best of the best.
He is the worst of the worst. He is mini Bush. Controlling, manipulative and a liar. See we will have a more open government statement. This government is the most secretive by far of any.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Stephen Harper is just unfortunate enough to be getting dragged down in power hungy politics when its the policies that should be focused on. This is a man that has delivered Canada into the best economic shape of any G8 country, I believe even G20. He has kept Canada out of a recession, given back in taxes to help Canadians shoulder the load, and refused to do the ''sexy thing'' to look good in front of the camera. Instead, he does things rationally, not making any panicy decisions like throwing around billions and putting himself in debt.
Might want to go back into history boy. The state of the economy was given to him on a silver platter by the liberal government. Stevie has nothing to do with the state of the current economy (in relation to the rest of the world) and the banking regulations.
He is more power hungry than the coalition combined. He is scared to lose power so he retains it by putting off Parliament.
He doesn't try to look good for the camera? Are you kidding me? Didn't you hear, he ordered his people to stand at the gates of the GG to cheer for him so that the cameras (and the uninformed public) would think that people cheering for him.
Oh have we forgotten, hey Maxime, nice girlfriend.
quote:
Originally posted by Alex
Stephen Harper is a genius who has to deal with a bunch of idiots.
Stevie is an idiot who thinks he is surrounded and supported by geniuses. Unlike Beans, Alex your post is the mindless sheep bleating brought to you by the Conservative rhetoric.
You may want to recheck history yourself. The Liberals balanced the books on the backs of the provinces. They didn't do any of the dirty work, they just downloaded costs to the provinces. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 09:38:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
My Opinion
Layton- Best Business man
Dion- Most Intelligent- Don't let the english barrier fool you.
Harper- Power hungry and abrasive- These are great qualities for a PM.
Choosing from my heart i would want the liberals in power, but i think Canada should stay with the Gov we have until we know the complete impact the recession will have, and how long it has been going on for. Unfortunately the western world economy is driven by the USA. As we all know now the USA has been in a recession for all of 2008. It may come out soon it has been longer than all of 2008, and more and more nations are gearing up for, or already in a recession.
Anyone who thinks we are not already in a recession must not remember the 80's. I was in AB in the 80's and people never seen it comming. The bigger the boom the longer it will take to show the true impacts of a recession but the bigger the valley.
Holy crap!!! Layton the best businessman? Are you for real? Even most of his most ardent supporters wouldn't agree with that. In times of economic turmoil, he wants to raise taxes??!! What a wonderful job klling strategy. Unbelievable that you would state something so preposterous. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 09:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
My Opinion
Layton- Best Business man
Dion- Most Intelligent- Don't let the english barrier fool you.
Harper- Power hungry and abrasive- These are great qualities for a PM.
Choosing from my heart i would want the liberals in power, but i think Canada should stay with the Gov we have until we know the complete impact the recession will have, and how long it has been going on for. Unfortunately the western world economy is driven by the USA. As we all know now the USA has been in a recession for all of 2008. It may come out soon it has been longer than all of 2008, and more and more nations are gearing up for, or already in a recession.
Anyone who thinks we are not already in a recession must not remember the 80's. I was in AB in the 80's and people never seen it comming. The bigger the boom the longer it will take to show the true impacts of a recession but the bigger the valley.
Further, we are NOT in a recession. A recession is defined as two consectutive quarters of negative growth. In the last measureable period, the Canadian economy GREW at a better than expected 1.3%. Harper must be doing something right. |
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Guest8332
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Posted - 12/09/2008 : 10:02:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Nothing of the sort actually, you little marketers dream you. Hook, line and sinker. Try to think for yourself for a change...
Great come back. Am not but you are. I think I heard that in grade 2.
What pray tell have the guest's posts indicate that it runs along the line of any party's rhetoric? I can't see it.
Keep bleating mindless sheep. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 10:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8332
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Nothing of the sort actually, you little marketers dream you. Hook, line and sinker. Try to think for yourself for a change...
Great come back. Am not but you are. I think I heard that in grade 2.
What pray tell have the guest's posts indicate that it runs along the line of any party's rhetoric? I can't see it.
Keep bleating mindless sheep.
look i am learning a lot in this thread and am very interested in the opinions of my fellow Canadians and even the opinions of other nations for that matter but comments like this one are going to get this thread closed for all of us ,, you don't have to agree with anyone thats your right to call ahrper and the conservatives mindless sheep that too is your right but when you call other participants sheep thats where your rights end i would appreciate it if you kept you attacks on the issues at hand and not at the other members so we can continu to debate and all learn from this interesting topic ,,, thank you
Pasty |
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Guest6196
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Posted - 12/09/2008 : 10:30:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
My Opinion
Layton- Best Business man
Dion- Most Intelligent- Don't let the english barrier fool you.
Harper- Power hungry and abrasive- These are great qualities for a PM.
Choosing from my heart i would want the liberals in power, but i think Canada should stay with the Gov we have until we know the complete impact the recession will have, and how long it has been going on for. Unfortunately the western world economy is driven by the USA. As we all know now the USA has been in a recession for all of 2008. It may come out soon it has been longer than all of 2008, and more and more nations are gearing up for, or already in a recession.
Anyone who thinks we are not already in a recession must not remember the 80's. I was in AB in the 80's and people never seen it comming. The bigger the boom the longer it will take to show the true impacts of a recession but the bigger the valley.
Further, we are NOT in a recession. A recession is defined as two consectutive quarters of negative growth. In the last measureable period, the Canadian economy GREW at a better than expected 1.3%. Harper must be doing something right.
I should rephrase we are heading for a recession and since we follow the USA's economy and they have been in a recession for some time now, we will be next.
I think you would have to live dark days if you think the recession won't affect you. Odin, you don't sound worried with comments like Harper doing something right, you must admit we are in troubled times as a nation. You also talk about jon chretien and Martin but Mulroney left the country in a pile of trouble which the Liberals had to clean up.
When Klein took power in AB he cut jobs and raised taxes, it affected my family as well as many others, it was a good Business move, and great in the long run for the province. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 11:04:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8332
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Nothing of the sort actually, you little marketers dream you. Hook, line and sinker. Try to think for yourself for a change...
Great come back. Am not but you are. I think I heard that in grade 2.
What pray tell have the guest's posts indicate that it runs along the line of any party's rhetoric? I can't see it.
Keep bleating mindless sheep.
Seriously, thats the best you have? You heard that you were a marketers dream in grade two did you?
Listen, I love to debate as is probably blantantly obvious, but it helps when the other side actually has some facts and does a little research on their own. Clearly, these conditions do not apply to you.
By the way, current polls indicate that if we were to have an election today, a whopping 46% of voters would vote for the Conservatives, giving them a clear cut majority. Is that what has your knickers in a knot?
Soldiers....with guns....in our cities....
INDEED! |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 11:15:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
quote:
Originally posted by Guest6196
My Opinion
Layton- Best Business man
Dion- Most Intelligent- Don't let the english barrier fool you.
Harper- Power hungry and abrasive- These are great qualities for a PM.
Choosing from my heart i would want the liberals in power, but i think Canada should stay with the Gov we have until we know the complete impact the recession will have, and how long it has been going on for. Unfortunately the western world economy is driven by the USA. As we all know now the USA has been in a recession for all of 2008. It may come out soon it has been longer than all of 2008, and more and more nations are gearing up for, or already in a recession.
Anyone who thinks we are not already in a recession must not remember the 80's. I was in AB in the 80's and people never seen it comming. The bigger the boom the longer it will take to show the true impacts of a recession but the bigger the valley.
Further, we are NOT in a recession. A recession is defined as two consectutive quarters of negative growth. In the last measureable period, the Canadian economy GREW at a better than expected 1.3%. Harper must be doing something right.
I should rephrase we are heading for a recession and since we follow the USA's economy and they have been in a recession for some time now, we will be next.
I think you would have to live dark days if you think the recession won't affect you. Odin, you don't sound worried with comments like Harper doing something right, you must admit we are in troubled times as a nation. You also talk about jon chretien and Martin but Mulroney left the country in a pile of trouble which the Liberals had to clean up.
When Klein took power in AB he cut jobs and raised taxes, it affected my family as well as many others, it was a good Business move, and great in the long run for the province.
Yes, it is not rosy, I am not trying to say that. The auto sector and the lumber sector and other manufacterers are hurting, no denying that, but the big thing that took the US economy down was their banking and lending sector. We just don't have those problems here because our banking system is much stronger, due the legislation that says our banks have to keep a higher level of reserves than their banks do. Also, one of the reasons that these sectors were hit disportionally was the rise in the Canadian dollar. That has since subsided so that should and will ease the pressure on the sectors. Funny though, that one of the major reasons that the auto sector can't compete is Buzz Hargroves incessant demands for his union. I would be interested to see if there is any study that shows how many jobs CAW actually cost it union.
Now, with regards to the mess that Mulroney left, he was just trying to clean up the absolute disaster that our good friend PET left the books in with his socialist schemes. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2008 : 11:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Further, we are NOT in a recession. A recession is defined as two consectutive quarters of negative growth. In the last measureable period, the Canadian economy GREW at a better than expected 1.3%. Harper must be doing something right.
Sorry Odin, according to the Bank of Canada we're now in a recession. They dropped their key interest rate by 3/4 of a percent today (1.5% in the last 2 months) and they warn that conditions are worsening. In response, the other major banking institutions just cut their rates by half a percent. As you know this type of action is done in an effort to stimulate buying and pull out of recession, but it's likely not going to work in the short term. The Conservatives need to get their budget done and fast. If it's not good enough they will be facing a non-confidence vote.
Bank of Canada article:
http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081209.wrates1209/BNStory/Business/home
Side note, Dion is stepping down right now (rather than in May) So the Liberals will have Ignatieff at the helm. I think he'll come across as a more worthy adversary for Harper. |
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And Canada Crumbles..... 
