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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect



Canada
98 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  11:34:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, thats cool I didn't realize water vapour was such a prevalent greenhouse gas! Learn something new every day! Now I won't debate you on climate change, but I just want to point out one thing. Inductive science does not "prove" things. Evolution has not been "proven" but no reasonable person can completely doubt its role in the evvironment. All science can do as a tool is gather as much evidence as possible; an overwhelming amount of which seems to be pointing towards global warming being man-made at the moment. When a better hypothesis comes along, maybe this debate will be settled once and for all.

Anyways, my point was not that the Liberals always kept their promises, or exact stats, its just that Harper is extremely polarizing. Proof? We are here talking about him on a HOCKEY POOL BOARD! We should be debating whether or not the Sharks are gonna cut it in the playoffs or if the Sens will make it at all! lol

I hope for the sake of the country he can find a way to pull the parties together.
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  11:36:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leigh

quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Further, we are NOT in a recession. A recession is defined as two consectutive quarters of negative growth. In the last measureable period, the Canadian economy GREW at a better than expected 1.3%. Harper must be doing something right.



Sorry Odin, according to the Bank of Canada we're now in a recession. They dropped their key interest rate by 3/4 of a percent today (1.5% in the last 2 months) and they warn that conditions are worsening. In response, the other major banking institutions just cut their rates by half a percent. As you know this type of action is done in an effort to stimulate buying and pull out of recession, but it's likely not going to work in the short term. The Conservatives need to get their budget done and fast. If it's not good enough they will be facing a non-confidence vote.

Bank of Canada article:
http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081209.wrates1209/BNStory/Business/home

Side note, Dion is stepping down right now (rather than in May) So the Liberals will have Ignatieff at the helm. I think he'll come across as a more worthy adversary for Harper.



I know, I saw that column too. However, I'm not sure where this columnist came up with this. We are actually not in a recession yet, as the definition of a recession is two consecutive quarters of negative growth. The last measurable period was 1.3% growth. Therefore, by definition, it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to be in a recession.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/081201/dq081201a-eng.htm.

Ignatieff would be the best leader for the Libs as he wanted absolutely nothing to do with the coalition, and Rae has far too much baggage in Ontario.
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  11:42:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by goleafsgosjnb

Wow, thats cool I didn't realize water vapour was such a prevalent greenhouse gas! Learn something new every day! Now I won't debate you on climate change, but I just want to point out one thing. Inductive science does not "prove" things. Evolution has not been "proven" but no reasonable person can completely doubt its role in the evvironment. All science can do as a tool is gather as much evidence as possible; an overwhelming amount of which seems to be pointing towards global warming being man-made at the moment. When a better hypothesis comes along, maybe this debate will be settled once and for all.

Anyways, my point was not that the Liberals always kept their promises, or exact stats, its just that Harper is extremely polarizing. Proof? We are here talking about him on a HOCKEY POOL BOARD! We should be debating whether or not the Sharks are gonna cut it in the playoffs or if the Sens will make it at all! lol

I hope for the sake of the country he can find a way to pull the parties together.



Thats all fine, but don't forget, a mere 40 years ago, all of these scientists were absolutely convinced that we were going to be in the middle of an ice-age right now. Also, there is a better theory: solar activity.

Also, you blame Harper for igniting this debate, when it could also be argued that the opposition and their sour grapes have caused this. Harper backed off what was the apparent controversy, and that still wasn't good enough. I agree, get Ignatieff in, cooler head will prevail.
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Guest6196
( )

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  11:47:13  Reply with Quote
"Now, with regards to the mess that Mulroney left, he was just trying to clean up the absolute disaster that our good friend PET left the books in with his socialist schemes."

Touché
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie



Sweden
217 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  11:53:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Canadian comedian Rick Mercer´s opinion:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081205.wPOLmercer1205/BNStory/nationbuilder2008/

Can´t say I have much respect for politicians regardless of nationality (Gandhi would be an exeption) but they are supposed to serve the people (Gandhi), not themselves or corporations (see GW Bush).

I find that at least here in Sweden the difference between political parties shrinks every year as the largest parties want to appeal to the center (largest group of people as possible so they can win and get the power to rule). There are still some differances but it feels like elections become more and more of a popularity contest than choice between parties that actually stands for something.

But in the end what politicians should do IMO is to serve the people and maintain stability and peace. And I´m aware that this post is fairly neutral, it was intentional.

Edit: Something to ponder for the people who doubt evolution: When you use your hands alot you get thicker skin. Coincidence?

Edited by - I´m also Cånädiön on 12/09/2008 12:38:51
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star



Canada
2816 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  16:19:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For the record, Stephen Harper is an economist by profession so it's quite funny that people are saying he doesn't understand the economy.

Any time a government has billions in surplus, it means that the taxpayer is getting basically fooled. Stephen Harper gave Canadians a lot more breathing room, which, by the way, is pretty damn smart during economic downturn. And for the record, his administration, while losing jobs, an inevitable symptom of these times, has created even more jobs.

But I should mention that the economy isn't the main reason I like Harper. The reason I like him is because of his foreign policy and social policies. I think he is a genius in that regard, and one of the only politicians with a backbone. Can't disagree with me on that one.



Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro



USA
365 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  17:34:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alex

For the record, Stephen Harper is an economist by profession so it's quite funny that people are saying he doesn't understand the economy.

Any time a government has billions in surplus, it means that the taxpayer is getting basically fooled. Stephen Harper gave Canadians a lot more breathing room, which, by the way, is pretty damn smart during economic downturn. And for the record, his administration, while losing jobs, an inevitable symptom of these times, has created even more jobs.

But I should mention that the economy isn't the main reason I like Harper. The reason I like him is because of his foreign policy and social policies. I think he is a genius in that regard, and one of the only politicians with a backbone. Can't disagree with me on that one.

Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame


You just made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. Please tell me how you think he is a genius at "social policies". Unless you are a complete redneck most Canadians think he is a half step up from neanderthal when it comes to social issues. And you're 14 years old, what do you know about foreign policy? I'll admit that compared to the US Canadian foreign policy is great but it's more of a Canadian mentality, not a Harper one. Maybe you can explain his genius to us....


......we're waiting.
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star



Canada
2816 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  17:43:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Simply put, I'm against same sex-marriage, I agree that he raised the age of consent, I support cutting arts funds, especially in a economic crisis. Etc.

As for foreign policy. He cut funding for Hamas as one of the first things in office. He has supported the war in Afghanistan, a neccesary component in killing global terrorism. He has basically been the only one with half a brain where the middle east conflict is concerned.

Make sure to cast your votes in the PickUpHockey Hall of Fame
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goleafsgosjnb
Top Prospect



Canada
98 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  18:26:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just read Rick Mercer's blog link. He is absolutely right. Canada deserves better than this partisan mess. No party can claim innocence. Laurier and Pearson must be spinning in their graves. Tommy Douglas too.
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Guest0965
( )

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  19:21:15  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Odin

quote:
Originally posted by Guest8332
Great come back. Am not but you are. I think I heard that in grade 2.

What pray tell have the guest's posts indicate that it runs along the line of any party's rhetoric? I can't see it.

Keep bleating mindless sheep.



Seriously, thats the best you have? You heard that you were a marketers dream in grade two did you?

By the way, current polls indicate that if we were to have an election today, a whopping 46% of voters would vote for the Conservatives, giving them a clear cut majority. Is that what has your knickers in a knot?


46% is somehow a more legitimate majority than the 62% that were against the Conservatives before Harper stained his pants and prorogued Parliament?

You didn't answer the guests question. What pray tell in any of my posts would indicate that I am a marketers dream? My post clearly show that I have chosen no sides but an MP that best reprents me in my riding. You however have been only spouting Conservative press releases. You have little political originality other than regurgitating Conservative propaganda and mindlessly following the word of the Party. Be careful, Big Harper is watching.

Also, the other guest had a point. I called you a mindless sheep and you said "am not but you are a marketer's dream" (paraphrased). If that is not a "am not you are" comeback what is?

Patsy I apologize for the mindless sheep call. I started it not the other guest. But all of Odin's posts were regurgitated from the Conservative press releases. I will refrain from throwing future insults.

I am Canadian, thanks for that Rick Mercer link. I knew I saw it somewhere.

GLG, yes water vapour is a greenhouse gas. However, it's lifecycle (when it no longer becomes a GHG) is days whereas CO2 and methane (CH4) are in the years or decades.

Alex, what did he do in the middle east? How about torture? What about human rights? Let's not talk about Afghanistan and killing when 3 more canadian soldiers have just been sent home in body bags.
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2008 :  20:38:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965

quote:
Originally posted by Odin

quote:
Originally posted by Guest8332
Great come back. Am not but you are. I think I heard that in grade 2.

What pray tell have the guest's posts indicate that it runs along the line of any party's rhetoric? I can't see it.

Keep bleating mindless sheep.



Seriously, thats the best you have? You heard that you were a marketers dream in grade two did you?

By the way, current polls indicate that if we were to have an election today, a whopping 46% of voters would vote for the Conservatives, giving them a clear cut majority. Is that what has your knickers in a knot?


46% is somehow a more legitimate majority than the 62% that were against the Conservatives before Harper stained his pants and prorogued Parliament?

You didn't answer the guests question. What pray tell in any of my posts would indicate that I am a marketers dream? My post clearly show that I have chosen no sides but an MP that best reprents me in my riding. You however have been only spouting Conservative press releases. You have little political originality other than regurgitating Conservative propaganda and mindlessly following the word of the Party. Be careful, Big Harper is watching.

Also, the other guest had a point. I called you a mindless sheep and you said "am not but you are a marketer's dream" (paraphrased). If that is not a "am not you are" comeback what is?

Patsy I apologize for the mindless sheep call. I started it not the other guest. But all of Odin's posts were regurgitated from the Conservative press releases. I will refrain from throwing future insults.

I am Canadian, thanks for that Rick Mercer link. I knew I saw it somewhere.

GLG, yes water vapour is a greenhouse gas. However, it's lifecycle (when it no longer becomes a GHG) is days whereas CO2 and methane (CH4) are in the years or decades.

Alex, what did he do in the middle east? How about torture? What about human rights? Let's not talk about Afghanistan and killing when 3 more canadian soldiers have just been sent home in body bags.



First off, 62% didn't vote for one party, it was four. The Liberals are not the NDP, the NDP are not the Bloc and the Bloc isn't the Greens. Get over it. And actually, the Conservatives had more support than the NDP, Bloc and Greens combined.

Second of all, touch a nerve did I?, using your own arguement all you do is sit and spout left wing propaganda, and in doing so, demonstrate you bought the lib-left line hook, line and sinker. Therefore you are a marketers dream because you are easily persuaded. Harper has a hidden agenda right?

And, sorry to burst your bubble, my releases come straight from my head. I guess your mind reading isn't quite up to what you want is it?Typical leftie, faced with facts that aren't quite the way you want them so you resort to name calling. By the way, choosing an MP is choosing a side, spin it however you want, thats what Liberals do best.

Seriously, are you in grade 2, because you have this huge pot and kettle thing going on.

So between CO2, methane and water vapour, which is FAR more prevalent?

And Afganistan? That was Paul Martin's baby.
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Lunchbox
Top Prospect



Canada
88 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  01:39:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So I've spent two years using this website and reading the forums and what gets me to finally register is not even hockey related. Ha!

But seriously there seems to be a lot of animosity among people for their political beliefs. Get a conservative and a liberal in a room together and you'd see blood from them before any two rival hockey fans.

It seems we're all pretty good at playing the blame game, but even though I've never done it, I assume that running a country is pretty hard. Yet we seem to expect our politicians to be near perfect. I am not a fan of Stephen Harper ideologically, but I dont think he's run the country into the ground either. Stephane Dion just can't communicate, as his English is terrible. (Sorry if this offends anyone for whom English is a second language, but to be Prime Minister you must be fluent in both our national languages, and we really should hold someone who wants to be Prime Minister up to a (slightly) higher standard than the average bilingual)

Anyways... to get back to this forum's original topic, the coalition. The coalition is not undemocratic or manipulative (although I give props to the Conservative party for putting that spin on it, as it seems to be working) When we cast our vote, we dont vote for a party, we vote for a single person...ssomeone to represent our riding, who may or may not be affiliated with a national party. These MP's then get together and the party with the most members simply gets "first crack" (for lack of a better phrase) at creating a government, and cabinet. We dont even get to decide who our Prime Minister is, its just that the parties are oh so obliging as to let us know long before hand who they choose as their leader.

I'm not a political expert but this is my basic understanding...

*Whew...sorry that was so long...from now on I'm sticking to the hockey topics.
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Guest0965
( )

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  05:05:20  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Odin

First off, 62% didn't vote for one party, it was four. The Liberals are not the NDP, the NDP are not the Bloc and the Bloc isn't the Greens. Get over it. And actually, the Conservatives had more support than the NDP, Bloc and Greens combined.

Second of all, touch a nerve did I?, using your own arguement all you do is sit and spout left wing propaganda, and in doing so, demonstrate you bought the lib-left line hook, line and sinker. Therefore you are a marketers dream because you are easily persuaded. Harper has a hidden agenda right?

And, sorry to burst your bubble, my releases come straight from my head. I guess your mind reading isn't quite up to what you want is it?Typical leftie, faced with facts that aren't quite the way you want them so you resort to name calling. By the way, choosing an MP is choosing a side, spin it however you want, thats what Liberals do best.

Seriously, are you in grade 2, because you have this huge pot and kettle thing going on.



Good to call everyone who disagrees with you a second grader. That was the other guest that said they heard it in grade 2 and that you are now calling others. How original. To top it off you go from "am not but you are" to "pot and kettle" routine. I see "na na na na boo boo stick your head in poo poo" coming up on your future posts.

If you read my posts, you would see that I criticized everyone even the liberals, unlike yourself who would not dare say anything out of line of the PC press releases. If your posts "said brought to you by the Conservative government" at the end, it wouldn't look all that different from the Conservative attack ads and press releases.

Until you start posting something original in regards to the politics that has not been approved by the PC line, I'm done posting here. It is similar to the Gretz vs Orr debate. You are not going to convince me otherwise and I will not be able to convince you. Hopefully the others on this forum will be able to ignore your loud Conservative chest thumping.
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  08:49:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965

quote:
Originally posted by Odin

First off, 62% didn't vote for one party, it was four. The Liberals are not the NDP, the NDP are not the Bloc and the Bloc isn't the Greens. Get over it. And actually, the Conservatives had more support than the NDP, Bloc and Greens combined.

Second of all, touch a nerve did I?, using your own arguement all you do is sit and spout left wing propaganda, and in doing so, demonstrate you bought the lib-left line hook, line and sinker. Therefore you are a marketers dream because you are easily persuaded. Harper has a hidden agenda right?

And, sorry to burst your bubble, my releases come straight from my head. I guess your mind reading isn't quite up to what you want is it?Typical leftie, faced with facts that aren't quite the way you want them so you resort to name calling. By the way, choosing an MP is choosing a side, spin it however you want, thats what Liberals do best.

Seriously, are you in grade 2, because you have this huge pot and kettle thing going on.



Good to call everyone who disagrees with you a second grader. That was the other guest that said they heard it in grade 2 and that you are now calling others. How original. To top it off you go from "am not but you are" to "pot and kettle" routine. I see "na na na na boo boo stick your head in poo poo" coming up on your future posts.

If you read my posts, you would see that I criticized everyone even the liberals, unlike yourself who would not dare say anything out of line of the PC press releases. If your posts "said brought to you by the Conservative government" at the end, it wouldn't look all that different from the Conservative attack ads and press releases.

Until you start posting something original in regards to the politics that has not been approved by the PC line, I'm done posting here. It is similar to the Gretz vs Orr debate. You are not going to convince me otherwise and I will not be able to convince you. Hopefully the others on this forum will be able to ignore your loud Conservative chest thumping.




Holy crap! You REALLY need to grow up. You are doing EXACTLY what you are accusing me of. You don't like the fact that I disagree with your assertions, so you devolve to the infantile position of accusing me of spouting Conservative press releases. That truly is weak. And the REALLY sad thing here is that you don't seem to even grasp that. I didn't come out name calling, you did. Why is it Ok for you to insult me, but not vice versa? People with glass houses and all that.

It truly is difficult to debate someone who rode to school on the short bus...
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Radoria
Top Prospect



Canada
17 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  09:11:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Actually I think everyone votes differently, some vote for the representatives in their riding because they like them or think they will do a good job. However, some also vote for a certain party due to personal political idealogies/beliefs and the types of policies that are likely to be passed as legislation if their choice of party were to form a government. I don't think the argument holds that we only vote for a representative and not for a potential Prime Minister, as many in the Maritimes voted against the Conservatives in the last election because they don't like Harper, while many in the western provinces vote Conservative because they do in fact support him and his platform, and thus will vote for their local Conservative candidate in hopes that their party will form a government; same goes for the Liberals and NDP (it is technically impossible for the Bloc to form a government).

The argument that most people in the country (actually it was only about 50% of eligible voters) did not vote for a Conservative government is technically correct. However, I question that when people voted for the Conservatives, Liberals, NDP or Bloc in the last election that they factored in the possibility of a coalition government. As seen by the backlash in the most recent polls, putting the Conservatives with 46% or whatever it was of the popular vote, that means that if an election were called today, it is most likely that they would elect enough MPs to form a majority government. I know this doesn't make sense to everyone but that's how it works.

Finally, I want to say that I do not support this coalition idea, mostly in reference to the point above being that when most voters cast their ballots last time the possibility of a coalition was not on the table. However, if the government is defeated in January, I support calling an election over the issue. If the election results are similar to the last, and the opposition wants to form a coalition, go nuts; now everyone will have voted with this issue on the table, and the will of the majority of the Canadian people (I hope) will be reflected in the outcome. And for those of you who say "oh I don't want another election", I think as issue as important as this would deserve one, and it takes only a few minutes to vote.

I like to remind everyone: THIS IS POLITICS!!! Why is anyone surprised? These sort of shenanigans have always gone on, just not in recent times. Probably not a good time for this sort of thing with the economy and all...that goes for all of you in Parliament!



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Radoria
Top Prospect



Canada
17 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  09:51:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you don't like our parliamentary system, here's an alternative to consider:
-Collapse current system, keeping only the senate, which would become an elected senate.
-The senate then elects a Supreme Chancellor, who would be Canada's leader.
-Declare the Republic of Canada.
-Due to the war in Afghanistan, the senate then gives "emergency powers" to the Supreme Chancellor, thus allowing him/her to have more executive authority over matters of government and thus streamlining efficiency in policy decisions and legislation.
-The senate approves the creation of an "army of clones" to fight in Afghanistan, since our current troop numbers are limited.
-The Chancellor then fabricates and uncovers a false conspiracy against the Republic of Canada started by the Quebec seperatists in collusion with the RCMP. As a result, the RCMP is dismantled.
-As a matter of national security the Supreme Chancellor then declares the First Canadian Empire, as personal liberties die with thunderous applause.
-Massive national resources allocated to the Canadian Space Agency go to building a very large spherical space station with a giant laser beam to deter rogue states said to have weapons of mass destruction. In the meantime the First Canadian Emperor disslives the senate and appoints "Regional Governors" to administer the Canadian Empire.
-People in Canada think this new form of government has gone too far and rebel, with the climax being the destruction of the giant spherical space station. After a while, the New Canadian Republic is formed, with liberty, representation and justice for all!
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Radoria
Top Prospect



Canada
17 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  09:59:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, that should read "dissolves".
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  10:00:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Radoria,

First post: bang on!

Second post: hilarious!
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  13:42:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Who would have thought that all us brutish hockey fans would have insight on a politic level as well.

Although I am a moderator, I will still wait to shut down this thread on Admin's advice. This seems to be a hot stove kind of topic and I love the battles back and forth. I would like to reiterate that even through this is not a hockey thread, the rules of the forum still apply. From all sides and to all members and guests alike, please stop the personal attacks. From the Grade 2 comments to the questioning of people's age. If we keep to arguing opinions and not people, the thread will be all better for it!

Thanks
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  14:24:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, taking my moderator hat off for a second, I would like to ensure that everyone clearly knows that I am a non-Extreamist Nationalist first and a Conservative 2nd. I agree with the overall mandate and direction of the Conservative Party in Canada as it most closely links with my own ideals.

That being said at different times in history, even though I am a conservative, another party would be better suited to lead. In times of social uncertainty, the ND would be the best. At times of national evolution, the Liberals. And in financial issues, the Consertavites. Like it or not, the model of supporting big business and Macro economics with a trickle down to the middle class has proven it self time and time again in countries all over the world. The middle class focus first has not been as effective in times of economic struggle. And think of the government as the biggest of all big business. They have the power to put the middle class back to work.

A couple of other things to thing about. Firstly, the current economic situation is not a recession by definition. Odin is correct on that. The economic community all agree that we are heading into a recession. But we also have to remember that Canada is an export driven economy. So we will always be one of the last countries to head into a recession and normally one of the last to pull out of a recession. When the USA comes out of theirs, we will more than likely come out the quarter or 2 afterwards. And on this note, I do agree with Odin in that our financial system is in better shape than the American system. For that reason, our recession should not be quite as painful, but it will be painful enough.

One other point I wanted to make was that people need to better understand who is actually responsible for what. For example, the current American Recession was not based on anything that George W. Bush did per se. He did not help the situation, but it was not him who caused the situation. Effectively, the laws that governed their financial sectors were mostly built and or evolved through Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton. It's important when playing the blame game that the blame is properly distributed. Because of many of these financial laws, other industries were being poorly managed and using primarily credit to finance their businesses. When the banks tightened the purse strings, many of these poorly managed companies were in trouble due to lack of availability to liquid cash. The most important thing to remember in this is that although we are in a period of uncertainty and most likely financial pain, this will force those industries that survive to be better managed and to not over extend themselves. This will make a strong economy after the recession than there was before.

Now, back to Canada and this Coalition thing. Sure, it's easy to say that the voting public were 60ish% against Harper, but that's irrelevant. That's not the system. The system is that the party with the largest amount of seats has an opportunity to form the government. This coalition "Coup" if you will was an opportunistic move by greedy politicians to gain power through something called an "opposition day." The opposition gets 6 days a year where than can push anything they want to a vote in Parliament. The confidence vote that was going to take place before being Prorogued was to occur on one of these "opposition days." That is the part I have the biggest issue with as if this situation happened 30 days before the confidence vote would not have been possible. I view that as a hole in the current Political Process that needs to be addressed.

But seriously, now that a couple of weeks are behind us through this political mess, think of what could have happened. In just 14 days, we went from a man nearly taking leadership of the Country to that same man not having leadership of his own party?? Scary!

In the end, I don't think any of the parties got this thing right at all. It is their job now, as the elected government, to work together to address the current issues so that we as Canadians do not feel any more negative impact of this future recession than what we have to. That is what they were elected to do and that is needed. Regardless of who you voted for and who you support, I think we can all agree that none of us voted for or support feeling more pain because the kids in Ottawa can not play in the same sandbox together. Who's at fault and what happened in the past 2 weeks is completely irrelevant. What happens on January 27th is the most important piece of politics that we will have in the next 2-3 years. That is what's important today.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  14:49:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's one more little tidbit if info to think about.

The agriculture and forestry industries of Western Canada have been in turmoil for the past few years. Primarily the Beef industry from BSE and the Lumber industry first from the Softwood Tarriffs from the States and then the Mountain Pine Beetle infestation.

The Agricultre and Forestry industries contributed $26.9 billion dollars to the GDP of Canada in 2007.

Now, the Automobile industry contributes only $14.1 billion dollars to the GDP of the country, yet there is huge pressure on the Government for a bailout or stimulus for the auto industry???

I can appreciate that there are troubled times in the East and that it is more than just the Auto industry taking a hit, but where was the help for the poor Alberta farmer who couldn't sell his cattle or the logger in northern BC staring into a forest of dead pine???
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Ripley
PickupHockey Pro



USA
365 Posts

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  15:09:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15


But seriously, now that a couple of weeks are behind us through this political mess, think of what could have happened. In just 14 days, we went from a man nearly taking leadership of the Country to that same man not having leadership of his own party?? Scary!


Actually this is not that scary and is perfectly normal. He went out on an incredible limb, if he was successful he would be looked at historically as a great strategist and this move might have been one of the most daring ang dynamic tactical moves in Canadian political history. However he was unsuccessful and therefore in the interests of saving his party, he is practically obligated to step down. Like a good leader he is doing so.
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Guest0965
( )

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  15:22:04  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Some very intelligent and original stuff


I recall that you said you were one of the sheeps. That is definitely false. Your posts are intelligent, well thought out and most importantly original with ideas well beyond the PC status quo. Well done.

Radoria, that was gold. If you could work in the schwartz (maybe beyond your time), that would be awesome.
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Guest0474
( )

Posted - 12/10/2008 :  23:14:22  Reply with Quote
As far as I'm concerned Harper is a brilliant tactician. He has made the opposition look like fools and has the GG dancing to his music. Make no mistake, Harper wants an election in January. He wants his majority and is playing dirty pool to get it. He has half the country seething at the left wing parties. He'll possibly get his majority. He has two solid issues to campaign on with the economy and trashing the coalition. It's honestly genius. I'm loving it, tax breaks for everybody! Harper is acting like a horse's ass and I love it. Sadly it's the only way he can get a majority and he will be toast after this election. If anyone thinks the GG will let the left wing coalition take power, give your head a shake. The GG would be smeared in the history books for eternity.
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Guest5716
( )

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  01:00:47  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9277

There is a lot NOT to like about this coalition, even though I support it, but it is hard to criticize it for being power-hungry if you support Stephen Harper. If anything comes of this I hope at least Harper learns his lesson that he cannot do whatever he wanted when only 40% of Canada support him.



People keep talking about how only around 40% of the voting population were for the Conservatives. That may be, but the last time I checked, 0% voted for a coalition government!
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie



Sweden
217 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  05:13:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15


One other point I wanted to make was that people need to better understand who is actually responsible for what. For example, the current American Recession was not based on anything that George W. Bush did per se. He did not help the situation, but it was not him who caused the situation. Effectively, the laws that governed their financial sectors were mostly built and or evolved through Reagan, Bush Sr. and Clinton. It's important when playing the blame game that the blame is properly distributed. Because of many of these financial laws, other industries were being poorly managed and using primarily credit to finance their businesses. When the banks tightened the purse strings, many of these poorly managed companies were in trouble due to lack of availability to liquid cash. The most important thing to remember in this is that although we are in a period of uncertainty and most likely financial pain, this will force those industries that survive to be better managed and to not over extend themselves. This will make a strong economy after the recession than there was before.



This has more to do with american politics than canadian, but I don´t think people realize how american politics work or how bad shape they are in after 8 years of Bush. The core of the problem is lobbying by mainly american but even foreign corporations. If you take american auto manufacturers as an example: They choose to pay american poiliticians 50mil$+ to make sure they don´t have to face laws that require them to spend and innovate to make more fuel efficient cars. Now when the s*** has hit the fan so to speak, what happens? American taxpayers will have to bail out the auto industri because they in my eyes bribed the politicians, disgusting if you ask me.

Now if you ignore the fact that Bush and company support war profiteering and just look at what has happend with the number of lobbyists in whashington during the last 8 years; you´ll see that they have more than doubled. Do you think corruption has gone up or down?
But it seems like Obama is though on lobbying and has strong ethics so hopefully this will be adressed in the coming years.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  07:38:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't kid your self about Obama. He might look like smiles and sunshine, but he did not have such a lucrative campaign without getting funding from public interest groups. Weather it was the Heath Care or Education fields or where it was, I don't know. But it was there.

And I am Canadian, you are not 100% correct in your assessment of GWB. I don't deny anything that you said, but his actions did not create all of the problems. It started back in the 80s with Reagan and Bush Sr and really went south in Clinton's time. Ultimately, Clinton was known as such a great president and created such an awesome economy. But really, it he sold the farm for short term gains and the Americans are paying for it today.
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  09:11:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965

quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Some very intelligent and original stuff


I recall that you said you were one of the sheeps. That is definitely false. Your posts are intelligent, well thought out and most importantly original with ideas well beyond the PC status quo. Well done.

Radoria, that was gold. If you could work in the schwartz (maybe beyond your time), that would be awesome.



We know, we know. Anyone who disagrees with you is sheep. We get it.

And anybody who answers that call gets the "am not, you are" arguement.

Truly weak!

Not to put too fine a point on this, but if I was spouting Conservative press releases, would I not, by now, have mentioned the fact that this coalition is undemocratic? You haven't seen that, because I haven't posted it.

Further, I am actually not a fan of everything Harper has done. He has pandered BIG TIME to Quebec in reconizing them as a nation (how quickly they forget) and once again increasing their transfer payments. I completely disagree with both these moves.

Further, he has taken his party so far into the center that they are almost undistinguishable from the Liberals.

And as long as you want to make acusations of unoriginality and spouting press releases and propaganda, you state "62% didn't vote for the Conservatives," but fail to mention that that vote was spread among 4 other parties. That is straight out of the left wing playbook.

The truly sad thing: you don't even see that.
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Guest0965
( )

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  11:09:49  Reply with Quote
Odin you truly have a problem. To complement Beans on something somehow turns it into something about you. Might want to seek some help.

Nowhere did I say that I agree or disagree with with Beans' post. I thought it as original and intelligent. If you happen to read the entire thread, you will see that Beans himself said he was a sheep.

However, this last post makes you less sheepish. A post with some content that did not come straight out of the PC line. It is a start so keep it up. Does it mean that I agree or disagree with everything you said? Nope.
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  11:26:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965

Odin you truly have a problem. To complement Beans on something somehow turns it into something about you. Might want to seek some help.

Nowhere did I say that I agree or disagree with with Beans' post. I thought it as original and intelligent. If you happen to read the entire thread, you will see that Beans himself said he was a sheep.

However, this last post makes you less sheepish. A post with some content that did not come straight out of the PC line. It is a start so keep it up. Does it mean that I agree or disagree with everything you said? Nope.



You see, this is the problem with you. You make all sorts of unfounded assumptions. If you have been following, you would have seen that it is quite clear that I've read the entire thread. You are being a hypocrite, not to mention evasive, because you address nothing I say to you directly. EVER. Its just plain weak.

This has nothing to do with what you are saying to Beans. And everything to do with the fact that you keep saying 'sheep". And you bring it up again here.

I shouldn't be surprised that you are an hypocrite and are being evasive, because along with all the leftwing BS you are spouting, these are the characteristics of such people.

Take a look in the mirror will you?
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  11:28:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965

Odin you truly have a problem. To complement Beans on something somehow turns it into something about you. Might want to seek some help.

Nowhere did I say that I agree or disagree with with Beans' post. I thought it as original and intelligent. If you happen to read the entire thread, you will see that Beans himself said he was a sheep.

However, this last post makes you less sheepish. A post with some content that did not come straight out of the PC line. It is a start so keep it up. Does it mean that I agree or disagree with everything you said? Nope.



And you know what? You can take credit for this exchange with your infantile name calling.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8286 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  11:45:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guys, Last warning. Start arguing the points and stop arguing the people making the points. This thread will be shut down at the next personal attack.

Keep it on topic and things are fine.
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admin
Forum Admin



Canada
2336 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  13:35:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Odin and Guest 0965 (and everyone else). Stop the personal attacks! I realize this is an exceptionally sensitive subject and we knew we were walking a fine line keeping this thread up without it being hockey related (although hockey and Canada are indeed synonymous)

Both of you are obviously very intelligent and are putting up engaging and thought provoking insight, however, like a couple politicians, you are both diminishing your credibility with the back and forth school yard bickering. Please stop the attempts to incite each other. Further posts of that nature will be removed. If you have a problem with this do not discuss it in this thread as the posts will also be removed. You can instead voice your concerns via email to admin at pickuphockey dot com if you wish. Thank you for your immediate attention to this.

I also invite you to read and understand our forum guidelines which can be found here: http://www.pickuphockey.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2160
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ThorntonisTHEMAN
PickupHockey Pro



499 Posts

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  13:42:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If I would be a liberal advisor, I would've told the party to wait a couple years, let the Conservatives run the country during the economic recession and THEN overturn the government. My reasons?
1. Because the country is in a recession, Harper will look like the bad guy. Is it his fault? No. But because of the economic situation, people will view him as a bad PM.
2. The Liberals have zero money right now and the Conservatives have money. An election now would result in the Conservatives WAY outspending the Liberals to win a majority.
3. At least waiting to overturn the government wil the budget comes out will allow us to see exactly what the USA is doing with the auto crisis and we can then do the same thing.

However, the Liberals didn't listen to me and look like idiots by teaming up with the NDP and the SEPERATISTS (sorry, whoever said that they are Soveriegnists is dead wrong).

Being a staunch conservative, I would love to see an election when they wanted to overturn the government. However, because they are waiting til the budget, I can see another minority because Canadian people seem to prefer socialism to morality.

But now that I have taken a good hour away from my studying, I will get back to that. It was definitely worth it tho cuz this topic has some very interesting reading! ALtho I'm sure I'll be regretting taking this time when i'm writing my final tonight!

Oh, and I'm ALso Canadian, let's NOT get started on the evolution debate on here. Not the time or place or forum

Edited by - ThorntonisTHEMAN on 12/11/2008 13:53:02
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Guest0965
( )

Posted - 12/11/2008 :  17:22:04  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN

If I would be a liberal advisor, I would've told the party to wait a couple years, let the Conservatives run the country during the economic recession and THEN overturn the government. My reasons?
1. Because the country is in a recession, Harper will look like the bad guy. Is it his fault? No. But because of the economic situation, people will view him as a bad PM.
2. The Liberals have zero money right now and the Conservatives have money. An election now would result in the Conservatives WAY outspending the Liberals to win a majority.
3. At least waiting to overturn the government wil the budget comes out will allow us to see exactly what the USA is doing with the auto crisis and we can then do the same thing.

However, the Liberals didn't listen to me and look like idiots by teaming up with the NDP and the SEPERATISTS (sorry, whoever said that they are Soveriegnists is dead wrong).

Being a staunch conservative, I would love to see an election when they wanted to overturn the government. However, because they are waiting til the budget, I can see another minority because Canadian people seem to prefer socialism to morality.

But now that I have taken a good hour away from my studying, I will get back to that. It was definitely worth it tho cuz this topic has some very interesting reading! ALtho I'm sure I'll be regretting taking this time when i'm writing my final tonight!

Oh, and I'm ALso Canadian, let's NOT get started on the evolution debate on here. Not the time or place or forum


Thornton good points.
1. Some will say that we are not technically within the formal definition of a recession. There has to be two consecutive....
2. A shame isn't it the north american democracy is not about who is going to do what is right or wrong? It is about who has the most money to spend on to get the message out to the public. Obama probably out spent all candidates combined. Only Hillary rivaled his expense on the election and she was easily $10M less than Obama's. I also wonder when the money to the parties would be doled out based on electoral votes? Is it in installments or a one time chunk at some set time period?
3. I think that is what Ignatieff plans to do. I'm sure there will be some major back room dealing before this budget goes out on the 27th.
4. It was I who called them Soverigntists. If separation from Canada is in the best interest of the Quebec, then the Bloc will do so. However I don't see that being in the best interest of Quebec at the moment considering the massive amount of debt the province would incur. Being the highest taxed citizens in Canada on top of the massive debt is not going to please Quebecers nor is it within their interests. The Bloc has a very clear agenda, to do that which is in the interest of Quebec. That's why the people voted their MPs were voted into Parliament. Maybe a party should be started in each of the province that would only look after its self interest (though some cynics would say that only Ontario and the Maritimes are missing from the fray to make this an actuality). Then each provincially based federal (oxymoron if there was ever one) party can vote on a supreme chancellor and then.... you can read Radoria's post.
5. I don't understand the "Canadian prefer socialism over morality" statement. Maybe when you are done your exams you can elaborate.
6. Good luck on your exam, those night time ones are killers.
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  08:59:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest0965

quote:
Originally posted by ThorntonisTHEMAN

If I would be a liberal advisor, I would've told the party to wait a couple years, let the Conservatives run the country during the economic recession and THEN overturn the government. My reasons?
1. Because the country is in a recession, Harper will look like the bad guy. Is it his fault? No. But because of the economic situation, people will view him as a bad PM.
2. The Liberals have zero money right now and the Conservatives have money. An election now would result in the Conservatives WAY outspending the Liberals to win a majority.
3. At least waiting to overturn the government wil the budget comes out will allow us to see exactly what the USA is doing with the auto crisis and we can then do the same thing.

However, the Liberals didn't listen to me and look like idiots by teaming up with the NDP and the SEPERATISTS (sorry, whoever said that they are Soveriegnists is dead wrong).

Being a staunch conservative, I would love to see an election when they wanted to overturn the government. However, because they are waiting til the budget, I can see another minority because Canadian people seem to prefer socialism to morality.

But now that I have taken a good hour away from my studying, I will get back to that. It was definitely worth it tho cuz this topic has some very interesting reading! ALtho I'm sure I'll be regretting taking this time when i'm writing my final tonight!

Oh, and I'm ALso Canadian, let's NOT get started on the evolution debate on here. Not the time or place or forum


Thornton good points.
1. Some will say that we are not technically within the formal definition of a recession. There has to be two consecutive....
2. A shame isn't it the north american democracy is not about who is going to do what is right or wrong? It is about who has the most money to spend on to get the message out to the public. Obama probably out spent all candidates combined. Only Hillary rivaled his expense on the election and she was easily $10M less than Obama's. I also wonder when the money to the parties would be doled out based on electoral votes? Is it in installments or a one time chunk at some set time period?
3. I think that is what Ignatieff plans to do. I'm sure there will be some major back room dealing before this budget goes out on the 27th.
4. It was I who called them Soverigntists. If separation from Canada is in the best interest of the Quebec, then the Bloc will do so. However I don't see that being in the best interest of Quebec at the moment considering the massive amount of debt the province would incur. Being the highest taxed citizens in Canada on top of the massive debt is not going to please Quebecers nor is it within their interests. The Bloc has a very clear agenda, to do that which is in the interest of Quebec. That's why the people voted their MPs were voted into Parliament. Maybe a party should be started in each of the province that would only look after its self interest (though some cynics would say that only Ontario and the Maritimes are missing from the fray to make this an actuality). Then each provincially based federal (oxymoron if there was ever one) party can vote on a supreme chancellor and then.... you can read Radoria's post.
5. I don't understand the "Canadian prefer socialism over morality" statement. Maybe when you are done your exams you can elaborate.
6. Good luck on your exam, those night time ones are killers.




Guest, there we go, we can finally agree on something. It is not in Quebec's best interest to separate, and it never will be. Their economy is in shambles WITH all the handouts they get from the ROC. I would truly like to see them try it alone for a while so that, perhaps, they would come to appreciate what the ROC actually does for them. One correction: they are the highest taxed area in North America.

But they are the authors of their own misfortunes. Once they introduced the anti-Anglophone bill 101, the exodus was staggering. Montreal once once somewhat of an envy, as they had many head offices, which generated a ton of cash for them. Because of bill 101, they moved elsewhere.

It doesn't necessarily have to be Quebec that votes itself out. We can ask them to leave. It would be Soooo much cheaper for the rest of us. Failing that however, I would love to see a politician, any politician, call them on their bluff. Maybe then they would stop the extortion.

With regards to the socialism over morality, I agree with that as well. We would rather spend to make everybody happy, rather than doing what is right. We complain that our youth have no moral compasses, but we are digging our own hole in this because we are eroding our own moral fabric by trying to make everybody happy. For example (and yes, this is a soft sell), newcomers to our country now expect to bring their way of life with them, instead of adopting the Canadian way of life. This causes obvious problems. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!



Edited by - Odin on 12/12/2008 09:05:10
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
350 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  09:01:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One more thing, Thorntonistheman, good call on the evolution issue, it took a great deal of my will not to open up that can of worms.
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Guest6196
( )

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  09:07:36  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Here's one more little tidbit if info to think about.

The agriculture and forestry industries of Western Canada have been in turmoil for the past few years. Primarily the Beef industry from BSE and the Lumber industry first from the Softwood Tarriffs from the States and then the Mountain Pine Beetle infestation.

The Agricultre and Forestry industries contributed $26.9 billion dollars to the GDP of Canada in 2007.

Now, the Automobile industry contributes only $14.1 billion dollars to the GDP of the country, yet there is huge pressure on the Government for a bailout or stimulus for the auto industry???

I can appreciate that there are troubled times in the East and that it is more than just the Auto industry taking a hit, but where was the help for the poor Alberta farmer who couldn't sell his cattle or the logger in northern BC staring into a forest of dead pine???



Now the Oil industry in AB are in troubled times. The bigger the peek the bigger the valley. When you have welders and pipe fitters making more than the accountants there needs to be a economic downfall to get the nation back on track.

As much as I am a Liberal i do believe Harper won the election and should be the PM till 2011.

Also if G.Bush Jr. did not spend the amounts he did for the war the US would not be quite as bad off.
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Guest4985
( )

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  09:44:14  Reply with Quote
Whatever else you think about coalitions in general you can't escape the fact that the Liberals and NDP have gotten into bed with Separatists. These guys are dedicated to destroying Canada. No self-respecting democratic CANADIAN party would ever be caught dead cow-towing to a group whose main purpose is to break up the very parliament they now serve. And if you think just because the Bloc isn't officially in the coalition it's OK then you're naive my friend. The coalition can't work without their support and that's called balance of power. The Bloc will never have a better chance to push forward their agenda, however slightly, and you can be damn sure they'll do everything they can to extract "concessions" in exchange for their support. This coalition will only weaken the country as a result.
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I´m also Cånädiön
Rookie



Sweden
217 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2008 :  10:18:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Odin
With regards to the socialism over morality, I agree with that as well. We would rather spend to make everybody happy, rather than doing what is right.



Ideology, morality and politics are three separate things. How the majority of people in different countries view left and right politics vary depending on many things. One of these things are the history of respective country. In south america right wing politics do not have a high standing because the USA had the habit of replace the democratically elected left wing leaders with dictators that where loyal to the US. The opposite can be seen in many former soviet states. Having been occupied by the soviets, right wing politics are generally more trusted than the opposite.

The political compass vary from country to country. For instance the Democratic party in the US would be seen as very right wing in some countries.

Personally I believe that taxfunded healthcare and education is a good thing as healthy citizens with acess to education have very few reasons to engage in criminal activities.

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