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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
 Posted - 12/28/2008 : 18:07:45
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Malkin and Ovechkin are the skilled players in the NHL these days. Crosby is wah wah baby, he's nothing but a whiner like Lemieux, they cry if they dont get there way and if anyone touches them they whine and they give you dirty cheap shots when you're not looking. Malkin and Ovechkin are the best two in the NHL today but I have news for you Lemieux fans... NO ONE, I mean NO ONE will EVER be as good as WAYNE GRETZKY. Lemieux not even close.
players top stat in a season
G A Pts
Gretzky - 92 163 215
Lemieux - 85 114 199
Ovechkin - 65 54 112
Malkin - 47 59 106
Crosby - 39 84 120
thats each players best years in goals,assists and best Points stats
Wayne Gretzky had and has more hockey smarts than Lemieux ever has, and Ovechkin and Malkin have more skills and smarts than Crosby
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Savitar
Top Prospect
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 19:04:47
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I agree with you on the Gretzky/Lemieux point. Apart from Orr and maybe Howe, Richard and (really going back here) Malone there are no real competitors to The Great One by my definition (a dominant player who permanently changes NHL hockey).
I will however disagree with you on Crosby not having the same hockey smarts as Ovechkin or Malkin. I feel that while Ovechkin and Malkin may be in a whole different category from Crosby as regards goalscoring, Crosby has incredible vision and a great feel for the puck, much like other great playmaking centers (Gretzky, Henrik Sedin, Guy Carbonneau). He is a natural playmaker and is effective in powerplay, penalty kill, and 5 on 5 situations.
He is a great all-rounder with little downside other than the fact that he is a smaller player that needs some protection. Of course Gretzky did it all without a body guard ...cough... Semenko... cough... McSorely.
As per "cheap shots" Crosby has (as of the end of 2007-08) played 213 NHL games and racked up 209 PIM, or 4 less PIM than games. Malkin has played 160 games, and racked up 156 PIM, ALSO 4 LESS PIM THAN GAMES.
You're right. Crosby is not Gretzky, but strong comparisons could be made with Crosby and Mark Messier or (later career) Jari Kurri. If you're going to rip on a guy for "only" being on a level with Mark Messier / Guy Carbonneau / Denis Savard then you may need to re-examine your priorities. Crosby is going to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer one day, as are Malkin and Ovechkin, but for completely different reasons. Crosby is a hard-working playmaker with incredible vision and possibly the best hands (okay, Rick Nash aside) in the NHL. Ovechkin and Malkin are both hard-workers, but they are natural sniper/goalscorer types. You need both to win games.
And this from a guy that really doesn't like "Sid the Kid".
Just my very wordy 2 cents. |
Edited by - Savitar on 12/28/2008 19:06:38 |
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pokermatt12
Top Prospect
Canada
65 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 20:58:57
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Ok, so what is the point you're trying to get across by posting this thread? Dirst you go off on Crosby saying he's not even in the same league as Malkin and Ovechkin (which i will not even comment on because there is no rationale behind it), then you go on comparing Gretz and Lemieux; WHAT?
Try to stay on one topic please. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 23:11:52
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| I did stay on topic if you can read you'd see that. I was saying that Crosby is a lot like Lemieux saying that they are both a couple whining babies when they don't get there own way, and I was just making a point that Ovechkin and Malkin are better and smarter hockey players and letting everyone know that for all you Lemieux fans Gretzky is a way better hockey player with a lot more talent. That being said I didn't say that Crosby has no hockey smarts because he obviously does being in the top 5 players today, But he wont be winning any Art Ross trophies while Malkin and Ovechkin are in the NHL |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 08:45:57
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hanley dude, wtf are you talking about when you say Lemieux was a whining baby? The guy was actually pretty freaking tough considering the amount of cheap shots guys used to take at him. He was big and strong and very vocal about changes that needed to be brought into the game, most of which have now been implemented. They called him a whiner then because most hockey fans were too thick headed to realize that he (and Brett Hull) were RIGHT!
also, if OV and Malkin are so much better than Crosby than howcome neither one of them has had a better statistical season than Sid has, despite being older than him. Not to mention Sid has more poitns than OV does right now. Wait until these guys have 5-6 seasons under their belt before judging them as if they have already spent a whole career in the NHL. Those 3 are just beginning to show us what they can do.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest8322
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Posted - 12/30/2008 : 07:02:46
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I think it can't really be argued that Malkin is currently more valuable to the Pens than Sid the Kid is. Being forced to play on the wing until last year (when Sid got hurt) Malkin underachieved in the first part of his career.
Since then, he has massively outscored Crosby, is more physically strong on the puck and is more of a force on the PP. If he didn't dissapear in the Stanley Cup finals, it would be slam-dunk that Malkin's the better player. Crosby is good, no doubt, but he's not an elite scorer, and doesn't look to break 50 in a season in his career. Ovechkin is on another level for scoring entirely, and has greatly increased his assists total from last year, dishes out some serious hits, and is working with arguably less talent around him. So he gets the nod from me. Anyone who thinks Crosby isn't underachieving right now is either retarded or lying. |
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Guest8332
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Posted - 12/30/2008 : 09:52:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8322
Anyone who thinks Crosby isn't underachieving right now is either retarded or lying.
I guess I'm retarded or lying then. I wish I could underachieve like Crosby right now. |
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Hustler90
Top Prospect
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 10:13:34
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(ADMIN EDIT CONTENT REMOVED) I think you meant to say no one will ever acheive the amount of points as Wayne Gretzky. If you ask me Lemieux's all around game was ten times better than Gretzky. Gretzky was an amazing playmaker but Lemieux was better in other areas. Wayne Gretzky himself said "Stats are for losers".
If you ask me Ovechkin is better than Crosby, but Malkin is not better than either of themm. Ovechkin is a tank, he can run you over, score, pass, Crosby has better control over the ice than Malkin. Malkin's just a big guy that plows his way through everything. Now I know you hanley will say then why does Malkin have more points. f*** points. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 10:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Hustler90
(ADMIN EDIT CONTENT REMOVED) I think you meant to say no one will ever acheive the amount of points as Wayne Gretzky. If you ask me Lemieux's all around game was ten times better than Gretzky. Gretzky was an amazing playmaker but Lemieux was better in other areas. Wayne Gretzky himself said "Stats are for losers".
If you ask me Ovechkin is better than Crosby, but Malkin is not better than either of themm. Ovechkin is a tank, he can run you over, score, pass, Crosby has better control over the ice than Malkin. Malkin's just a big guy that plows his way through everything. Now I know you hanley will say then why does Malkin have more points. f*** points.
ok Hustler90 how do you figure Points aren't important? that would be like saying we don't need anyone on our team that can score or make plays, have a team of nobody's. Points were important to Lemieux too, he was just no where near as good as Gretzky that's all. Lemieux was a whiny baby if he was touched he cried it was only ok if he hit you, but you hit him and he's crying to the officials, taking time off hockey because he has a hang nail!?!?! come on that's retarded, people play with far worse problems than that. Lemieux was a good hockey player but he doesn't and never had the hockey smarts or the heart or Leadership that Gretzky had. Gretzky also won more trophies, broke more records than anyone will ever come close too in a career. Gretzky won more Stanley Cups than Lemieux and let his team to the Stanley cup more. So I don't know what you are thinking about because I'm telling you the facts. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 11:17:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
if OV and Malkin are so much better than Crosby than howcome neither one of them has had a better statistical season than Sid has, despite being older than him. Not to mention Sid has more poitns than OV does right now. Wait until these guys have 5-6 seasons under their belt before judging them as if they have already spent a whole career in the NHL.
ok Matt Roberts did you think about what you said here???? Ovechkin has played 1 less game than Crosby this year and they are tied at 49 points at the moment... I have no doubts that Ovechkin will end up with more points than Sidney no doubts at all. And as far as your better statistical season goes this is Ovechkin and Crosby's 4th year in the NHL. Ovechkin has had more points than Crosby twice in 2005-06 season not only did he have more points than Crosby but he beat crosby for Calder Memorial Trophy (Rookie of the Year) and then he beat Crosby in points last year and he won the Art Ross Trophy (most points in a season), Hart Memorial Trophy, the Maurice Richard Trophy(Most goals in a season) and Lester B. Pearson Trophy. And Ovechkin will probably end up with more points than Crosby this year for the 3rd time out of 4 years. Career wise in 4 years Ovechkin has 359 Points so far in his 4 years and Crosby has 343. But lets not forget that Crosby has always had good linemates to help him out with points and Ovechkin hasn't had any good linemates until this year when Semin decided to pick things up. Now Malkin's turn to shine... ok Malkin started his NHL career a year after Ovechkin and Crosby, sure Crosby had more Points than Malkin in Malkins first year but Malkin had more Points last year and he's kicking Crosby's ass this year. And I have no doubt that at end of there careers Ovechkin and Malkin will end up with better stats than Crosby. So think about what you are saying before you type nonsense. |
Edited by - hanley6 on 12/30/2008 11:18:31 |
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Guest8332
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Posted - 12/30/2008 : 11:57:17
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Lemieux taking time off hockey because he has a hang nail!?!?! come on that's retarded, people play with far worse problems than that. Lemieux was a good hockey player but he doesn't and never had the hockey smarts or the heart or Leadership that Gretzky had.
Wait a minute. I'm a huge Gretz fan but really, Mario had cancer. He also had a wonky back. I think somewhere one of the equipment managers said that he played with so much pain that other players would be immobile. What ever problem you have with Mario, please don't knock him not being able to play through pain.
Mario was physically better at everything than Wayne. No doubts. Better stickhandling, skating, shot and strength. Wayne had him on less measurable items such as vision (maybe hockey IQ) and passing skills. Wayne was blessed with being healthy. If there was anyone that could exceed any of Gretz's records, it was a healthy Mario.
The biggest problem I have with Mario is during the draft where he refused to put on the Penguins jersey or acknowledge that he was even picked. He set the precedence for Lindros and Berrard. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 12:26:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8332
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Lemieux taking time off hockey because he has a hang nail!?!?! come on that's retarded, people play with far worse problems than that. Lemieux was a good hockey player but he doesn't and never had the hockey smarts or the heart or Leadership that Gretzky had.
Wait a minute. I'm a huge Gretz fan but really, Mario had cancer. He also had a wonky back. I think somewhere one of the equipment managers said that he played with so much pain that other players would be immobile. What ever problem you have with Mario, please don't knock him not being able to play through pain.
Mario was physically better at everything than Wayne. No doubts. Better stickhandling, skating, shot and strength. Wayne had him on less measurable items such as vision (maybe hockey IQ) and passing skills. Wayne was blessed with being healthy. If there was anyone that could exceed any of Gretz's records, it was a healthy Mario.
The biggest problem I have with Mario is during the draft where he refused to put on the Penguins jersey or acknowledge that he was even picked. He set the precedence for Lindros and Berrard.
I can see Cancer, I felt bad for him when he announced he had Cancer. I am talking about before that.. He didn't have a bad back thats bulls*** I remember he wouldn't play for a couple weeks because he had a hang nail. I agree Lemieux had better skating and better strength but Gretzky had the stickhandling, shot and everything else. I mean no one could take the puck away from Gretzky. Even a healthy Lemieux with the same amount of years and same amount of games played as Gretzky, Lemieux wouldn't have as much Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, Stanley Cups, Season records, Career records or even awards won and just plain overall skill as Gretzky. Gretzky ended with a better points per game average over their careers. actually lets face it Gretzky end better in every stats per game average besides PIM and Hits |
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Hustler90
Top Prospect
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 13:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest8332
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Lemieux taking time off hockey because he has a hang nail!?!?! come on that's retarded, people play with far worse problems than that. Lemieux was a good hockey player but he doesn't and never had the hockey smarts or the heart or Leadership that Gretzky had.
Wait a minute. I'm a huge Gretz fan but really, Mario had cancer. He also had a wonky back. I think somewhere one of the equipment managers said that he played with so much pain that other players would be immobile. What ever problem you have with Mario, please don't knock him not being able to play through pain.
Mario was physically better at everything than Wayne. No doubts. Better stickhandling, skating, shot and strength. Wayne had him on less measurable items such as vision (maybe hockey IQ) and passing skills. Wayne was blessed with being healthy. If there was anyone that could exceed any of Gretz's records, it was a healthy Mario.
The biggest problem I have with Mario is during the draft where he refused to put on the Penguins jersey or acknowledge that he was even picked. He set the precedence for Lindros and Berrard.
yeah this guy basically summed it up. Lemieux was much more entertaining to watch, and he had a little more guts than gretzky, Lemieux didn't have a personal set of bodyguards when he was on the ice either, he could defend himself. I got nothing on Gretzky he is amazing too but Lemieux was just my kind of player.
Hanley, Lemieux had cancer buddy, I am not quite sure you can compare that to a hangnail... |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 13:31:27
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Hey guys, I like the discussion, but lets try to stay on topic. This is about Ovechkin, Crosby, and Malkin. If you wish to discuss Gretzky and Lemieux, there is a Greatest All Time player thread that would be perfect.
Thanks! |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2008 : 20:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
quote:
Originally posted by Guest8332
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Lemieux taking time off hockey because he has a hang nail!?!?! come on that's retarded, people play with far worse problems than that. Lemieux was a good hockey player but he doesn't and never had the hockey smarts or the heart or Leadership that Gretzky had.
Wait a minute. I'm a huge Gretz fan but really, Mario had cancer. He also had a wonky back. I think somewhere one of the equipment managers said that he played with so much pain that other players would be immobile. What ever problem you have with Mario, please don't knock him not being able to play through pain.
Mario was physically better at everything than Wayne. No doubts. Better stickhandling, skating, shot and strength. Wayne had him on less measurable items such as vision (maybe hockey IQ) and passing skills. Wayne was blessed with being healthy. If there was anyone that could exceed any of Gretz's records, it was a healthy Mario.
The biggest problem I have with Mario is during the draft where he refused to put on the Penguins jersey or acknowledge that he was even picked. He set the precedence for Lindros and Berrard.
I can see Cancer, I felt bad for him when he announced he had Cancer. I am talking about before that.. He didn't have a bad back thats bulls*** I remember he wouldn't play for a couple weeks because he had a hang nail. I agree Lemieux had better skating and better strength but Gretzky had the stickhandling, shot and everything else. I mean no one could take the puck away from Gretzky. Even a healthy Lemieux with the same amount of years and same amount of games played as Gretzky, Lemieux wouldn't have as much Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, Stanley Cups, Season records, Career records or even awards won and just plain overall skill as Gretzky. Gretzky ended with a better points per game average over their careers. actually lets face it Gretzky end better in every stats per game average besides PIM and Hits
You know, there's not many things that perturb me more than people who spout off and show they are completely ignorant about what they are speaking. Do some research on Lemieux's injuries. This post just earned you zero credibility.
"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan |
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Guest6030
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Posted - 12/31/2008 : 06:38:25
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I disagree wi th both comments. First, Lemieux was at least as good as Gretzky was if not better. If Lemieux had stayed healthy, he would of surpassed any of Gretzky's records. He made things so easy, and the ones around him better. He developped Jagr's career. I've followed both greats careers, and without being a fan of one or the other, I think Lemieux is superior to Gretzky.
As for Crosby, he is a playmaker. People seem to ignore that. He;s not a goal scorer, at least not for now. He has incredible vision, best passer in the league, smart defensivle, an all around player, which i believe Malkin and Ovechkin lack. Lets not forget that he plays on the same line with Pascal Dupuis and another regular player. I think Crosby is as good if not better than Ovechkin, an a little notch higher than Malkin. The order i would choose is Crosby, Malkin, and then Ovechkin. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 12/31/2008 : 17:43:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6030
I disagree wi th both comments. First, Lemieux was at least as good as Gretzky was if not better. If Lemieux had stayed healthy, he would of surpassed any of Gretzky's records. He made things so easy, and the ones around him better. He developped Jagr's career. I've followed both greats careers, and without being a fan of one or the other, I think Lemieux is superior to Gretzky.
As for Crosby, he is a playmaker. People seem to ignore that. He;s not a goal scorer, at least not for now. He has incredible vision, best passer in the league, smart defensivle, an all around player, which i believe Malkin and Ovechkin lack. Lets not forget that he plays on the same line with Pascal Dupuis and another regular player. I think Crosby is as good if not better than Ovechkin, an a little notch higher than Malkin. The order i would choose is Crosby, Malkin, and then Ovechkin.
you have the right to believe what you think but if Lemieux played as many games as Gretzky in his career. Gretzky would still be the better player with more points and records set. Lemieux has never had a 200 season ever. Gretzky had 4. Gretzky made nobodies hockey players. as for Crosby if he didn't have a good team he wouldn't be in the top 10 in points in the NHL. Malkin and Ovechkin don't need to have great players on there team they have natural skills. Don't get me wrong Crosby has skills too, he's just not as good |
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Guest1407
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Posted - 01/01/2009 : 11:53:10
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| Crosby is the bomb he showed us last year when it mattered most in the playoffs that he is better than Malkin and OV theres no I in team but there is in ovechkin canadian heart always wins and OV act like u have scored B4 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 14:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
I can see Cancer, I felt bad for him when he announced he had Cancer. I am talking about before that.. He didn't have a bad back thats bulls*** I remember he wouldn't play for a couple weeks because he had a hang nail. I agree Lemieux had better skating and better strength but Gretzky had the stickhandling, shot and everything else. I mean no one could take the puck away from Gretzky. Even a healthy Lemieux with the same amount of years and same amount of games played as Gretzky, Lemieux wouldn't have as much Goals, Assists, Points, +/-, Stanley Cups, Season records, Career records or even awards won and just plain overall skill as Gretzky. Gretzky ended with a better points per game average over their careers. actually lets face it Gretzky end better in every stats per game average besides PIM and Hits
Actually their points per game were vitually identical in the regular season; Lemieux's was 1.917. Gretzky's was 1.921 for the regular season. It was the playoffs where G pulled ahead of L in the PPG. Gretzky had 1.836 to Lemieux's 1.607.
But let's keep this on topic guys. It's not a discussion of Wayne or Mario, it's about Crosby vs. Ovechkin or Malkin (although I'll admit the original author was a bit all-over-the-place)
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Jephman
Top Prospect
Canada
52 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 14:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
you have the right to believe what you think but if Lemieux played as many games as Gretzky in his career. Gretzky would still be the better player with more points and records set. Lemieux has never had a 200 season ever. Gretzky had 4. Gretzky made nobodies hockey players. as for Crosby if he didn't have a good team he wouldn't be in the top 10 in points in the NHL. Malkin and Ovechkin don't need to have great players on there team they have natural skills. Don't get me wrong Crosby has skills too, he's just not as good
I really don't understand you when you say Crosby needs a good team to put up points. I'm generally not a stats guy, but Crosby in his first year had 102 points without the help of really anyone (The next guy on his team had 58 points, defenseman Sergei Gonchar). The same thing goes for Ovechkin (106 points, where the next player had 57, Dainius Zubrus). I suppose these stats disprove you statement that Crosby needs a good team around him, because let's be honest, none of the "Big 3" need a good team around them to be productive, they can all do it by themselves in terms of offense. |
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Hustler90
Top Prospect
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 09:13:27
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| Yeah I like Ovechkin's style of play better and I like his all-around agme. But keep in mind how Crosby makes everyone around him better, probably more so than Ovechkin. Remember Colby Armstrong. That guy looked amazing in Pittsburgh. Now he is on Atlanta and you never hear about the guy. Same with Ryan Malone. He was starting to heat up, signed with Tampa Bay and he is not looking so good now either. Crosby can work with 2nd and 3rd liners and still put up numbers. Ovechkin can too but he often is scoring the goals, not assisting to 2nd and 3rd liners. |
Edited by - Hustler90 on 01/02/2009 09:14:29 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 10:08:07
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The thing that drives me nuts about these kinds of posts is that people seem to have to knock one player to prove their point about another. Malkin, Crosby, and Ovechkin are all obviously part of the elite group of offensive player today. There is no doubt about it, and if you disagree with that, you are being ignorant. And the difference between these players is pretty insignificant. Ultimately, Crosby appears to be a great playmaker at this point in his career, Ovechkin is more than likely the best pure goal scorer of the three, and Malkin is a little bit if everything.
However, is Crosby that much worse or better than the other two?? I can't see it. Just speaking offensively for a second, they are all very close, with Crosby actually leading the pack. Career wise, statisically speaking, they are within .1 PPG of each other. That is a point more for Crosby every 10 games than Ovechkin or Malkin.
I just hate when people post garbage like "Crosby can't hold Malkin's jock," or "Ovechkin's the best, it's not even close." That is so annoying. |
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Guest4631
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Posted - 01/02/2009 : 10:17:23
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Hanley6 you give all these stats saying ovechkin has had more points then crosby in his career, Did you forget that crosby missed half of last year only to return and lead the pens to the cup final. crosby has played 251 career games while ovechkin has played 282.
yet ovechkin only has 18 more points in 31 more games. (ov-362 vs cros- 344) so correct me if im wrong but that leaves crosby with a better points per game average, and crosby is plus 34 on his career while ovechkin is plus 23 both good numbers but one is a bit better. soo thanks for coming out and good luck on your quest to dig up reasons to knock crosby! |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 12:30:41
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Beans, you are right man. This is getting so childish. It's not even worth commenting on anymore. Everyone knows John Tavares is going to be the best ever. (im just kidding guys.....)
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2009 : 15:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4631
Hanley6 you give all these stats saying ovechkin has had more points then crosby in his career, Did you forget that crosby missed half of last year only to return and lead the pens to the cup final. crosby has played 251 career games while ovechkin has played 282.
yet ovechkin only has 18 more points in 31 more games. (ov-362 vs cros- 344) so correct me if im wrong but that leaves crosby with a better points per game average, and crosby is plus 34 on his career while ovechkin is plus 23 both good numbers but one is a bit better. soo thanks for coming out and good luck on your quest to dig up reasons to knock crosby!
ok nice try.. but my point still stands last year Ovechkin had a better Points Per Game average and this year aswell. I understand your ovechkin only has 18 more points in 31 more games. (ov-362 vs cros- 344) theory over the years at the end of their careers Ovechkin will have the better PPG average. Another thing Crosby has had Malkin and a team in the last 3 years. Ovechkin hasn't really had much help at all. If Crosby was playing for Washington and and Ovechkin was playing for Pittsburgh, Ovechkin would be tied with Malkin or maybe alittle ahead in points and Crosby would only have about 32 points right now |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2009 : 15:28:32
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
But let's keep this on topic guys. It's not a discussion of Wayne or Mario, it's about Crosby vs. Ovechkin or Malkin (although I'll admit the original author was a bit all-over-the-place)
actually I know MY title was called Malkin and Ovechkin are better than Crosby but when you are talking about the best in the NHL you can't forget about Gretzky and Lemieux. I was refering to Crosby as being alot like Lemieux ( both great hockey players but both whiners too, when they don't get there own way). I'm kinda referring Malkin and Ovechkin towards the Gretzky side as in they are definetly better than Crosby as Gretzky was simply, well!!! easily better than Lemieux.
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Edited by - hanley6 on 01/03/2009 15:29:25 |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2009 : 17:55:00
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
quote:
Originally posted by leigh
But let's keep this on topic guys. It's not a discussion of Wayne or Mario, it's about Crosby vs. Ovechkin or Malkin (although I'll admit the original author was a bit all-over-the-place)
actually I know MY title was called Malkin and Ovechkin are better than Crosby but when you are talking about the best in the NHL you can't forget about Gretzky and Lemieux. I was refering to Crosby as being alot like Lemieux ( both great hockey players but both whiners too, when they don't get there own way). I'm kinda referring Malkin and Ovechkin towards the Gretzky side as in they are definetly better than Crosby as Gretzky was simply, well!!! easily better than Lemieux.
Again let's get the facts straight here. If you are going to say Lemieux was a whiner then you better acknowledge Gretzky was the ultimate whiner. If you don't then I posit that you did not see him play and are reading stat sheets to come to your conclusions.
"Society, have mercy on me. Hope you're not angry if I disagree." - Jerry Hannan |
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Guest4631
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Posted - 01/03/2009 : 18:42:15
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
quote:
Originally posted by Guest4631
Hanley6 you give all these stats saying ovechkin has had more points then crosby in his career, Did you forget that crosby missed half of last year only to return and lead the pens to the cup final. crosby has played 251 career games while ovechkin has played 282.
yet ovechkin only has 18 more points in 31 more games. (ov-362 vs cros- 344) so correct me if im wrong but that leaves crosby with a better points per game average, and crosby is plus 34 on his career while ovechkin is plus 23 both good numbers but one is a bit better. soo thanks for coming out and good luck on your quest to dig up reasons to knock crosby!
ok nice try.. but my point still stands last year Ovechkin had a better Points Per Game average and this year aswell. I understand your ovechkin only has 18 more points in 31 more games. (ov-362 vs cros- 344) theory over the years at the end of their careers Ovechkin will have the better PPG average. Another thing Crosby has had Malkin and a team in the last 3 years. Ovechkin hasn't really had much help at all. If Crosby was playing for Washington and and Ovechkin was playing for Pittsburgh, Ovechkin would be tied with Malkin or maybe alittle ahead in points and Crosby would only have about 32 points right now
Ok you are right, ovechkin did average more points per game last year with 1.36 ppg while crosby only managed a 1.35 ppg average. that extra .01 over 82 games works out to 0.82 points more over a season. so how dare we put crosby in the same league as ovechkin. and i seem to remember crosby getting 102 points without malkin in his rookie year so i wouldnt give malkin all the credit. All three are great players, and all 3 play a different style of game, and all 3 will dominate the league for a long time. and where did you get the stats for if crosby and ovechkin were in different positions? magic 8 ball? or just pull them out of mid air? |
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Guest2764
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Posted - 01/03/2009 : 19:32:32
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umm lemieux just kind of played like ya know 800 games gretzky played something like double? maybe thats why he has more points
duma** |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2009 : 19:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2764
umm lemieux just kind of played like ya know 800 games gretzky played something like double? maybe thats why he has more points
duma**
Lemieux played 915 games. Gretzky only played 572 more games and had 1134 more points than Lemieux. . Lemieux played more than half of Gretzky's games. But if you want to do it that way out of Gretzky's first 847 NHL games he had 1979 Points in only 847 games Gretzky had 256 more points than what Lemieux had in 915 games.
Even if Lemieux played as many games as Gretzky, Lemieux wouldn't have as much points. Gretzky racked points like no one else could. Gretzky actually was able to reach atleast 200 points in a season, that's unheard of not just once, not twice but 4 times. How many times has Lemieux had 200 Points in a season????? that's right,,, NEVER!!!
If Lemieux would have played as many games as Gretzky he still wouldn't have as much points as THE GREAT ONE... Gretzky's career +/- was +518 Lemieux +115. Gretzky was also better in the playoffs.... PPG average aswell. Gretzky also won 4 Stanley Cups Lemieux 2. Keep trying you're not going to win this debate |
Edited by - hanley6 on 01/03/2009 20:18:07 |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2009 : 09:34:54
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| Crosby needs a good team to play with him. If he was playing for Washington he wouldn't be in the top 10 in points. Look at Ovechkin he Hasn't ever really had much help at all in Washington and yet he's still pretty well the best NHL player in the last 4 years |
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Guest4631
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Posted - 01/04/2009 : 10:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Crosby needs a good team to play with him. If he was playing for Washington he wouldn't be in the top 10 in points. Look at Ovechkin he Hasn't ever really had much help at all in Washington and yet he's still pretty well the best NHL player in the last 4 years
you keep saying that but you have no proof of it. crosby's rookie year he had a terrible team they were 2nd last in the entire nhl, yet crosby still had 102 points and became the youngest player ever to have a 100 point season and he did not have a good team around him |
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Hustler90
Top Prospect
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2009 : 13:35:02
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| Crosby would find a way to get 100 points if he was on the Islanders for god sakes. The thing is Ovechkin is better I think, but why you guys keep putting Crosby down is ridiculous. Malkin, Ovechkin and Crosby are the best three players in the league. One of them may be better but not by that much, their all better in different ways. |
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Lunchbox
Top Prospect
Canada
88 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2009 : 15:29:42
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| I've gotta agree with Hustler. They are all great players, but they play different styles, and who is better is really all relative. If I've got a team with Dany Heatly or Simon Gagne, and I had a choice for another player, I'd take Crosby or Malkin, good set up guys. If my top line has Joe Thorton, I'd take Ovie, who can put them away like no one else. I think it was said earlier by someone, its like comparing apples and oranges. And you cant tell me if your team got a hold of Sid the Kid you wouldnt be pretty pleased. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2009 : 16:27:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Lunchbox
I've gotta agree with Hustler. They are all great players, but they play different styles, and who is better is really all relative. If I've got a team with Dany Heatly or Simon Gagne, and I had a choice for another player, I'd take Crosby or Malkin, good set up guys. If my top line has Joe Thorton, I'd take Ovie, who can put them away like no one else. I think it was said earlier by someone, its like comparing apples and oranges. And you cant tell me if your team got a hold of Sid the Kid you wouldnt be pretty pleased.
I wouldn't want a dirty cry baby like Crosby on Toronto. But I'd definetely take Malkin or Ovechkin any given day |
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Guest5443
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Posted - 01/04/2009 : 16:40:32
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| Hanley = IHC |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 07:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest5443
Hanley = IHC
Ok, I laughed out loud when I read this. Well Done!!
The the issue at hand, I can't stress enough as I said above, the difference between these players is pretty insignificant.
I would venture to say that these three guys would be on the top every (not most, every) GM's list of non-goalie players to build a team around. Sure there might be some stupid GM's out there, but all of them??
And with all due respect, if you are a fan of a team and you would not want Crosby on it, you must like to lose. I would bet large sums of money that any team in the league picks up 5+ more wins in a season by adding Crosby (or Malkin or Ovechkin) to their roster.
I would love to see any of these guys in an Oilers Jersey, and I am not picky about it! |
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Hustler90
Top Prospect
Canada
53 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2009 : 11:39:37
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| Yeah really, maybe Crosby does get upset and throw a little tantrum out on the ice, but who cares? 99 percent of the time he's being dangerous on the offensive end. If you wouldn't want Crosby on your team, as Beans said you must like losing. Thats just being plain ignorant, not wanting a former Art Ross winner on your team. |
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Guest2894
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Posted - 01/06/2009 : 04:14:02
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| if lemieux played as many games as Gretzky he would not have as many points, but he wouldn't pale so badly in comparison if he had maybe 200-300 points down which isnt so bad being compared to the great |
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Guest2894
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Posted - 01/06/2009 : 04:16:36
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| and looking at those stats at the top Crosby had more points in his best season that ovie and malkin did hahah maybe not as many goals but more points |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/06/2009 : 05:10:57
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Leaving out the ridiculous comparisons to Gretzky and Lemieux (none of these three players will ever dominate like they did), I have to say that the stats don't lie:
All three players are very close to each other in talent and skill, and they are the top three elite players in the league right now.
So? 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Topic |
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Malkin and Ovechkin are better than Crosby 
