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Guest7752
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 Posted - 01/22/2009 : 11:54:27
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- raymond bourque was old and he made immediate impact
- even claude lemieux is making a better impact than sundin
- guy lafleur made immediate impacts everywhere he went after leaving the habs
- saku koivu made an immediate impact after cancer surgery
- the great mario made an immediate impact after cancer surgery
there are more GREAT players i can list.... SUNDIN in NOT a great player. |
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Thrasher
Rookie
Canada
155 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 16:43:02
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Its ok everyone calm down. I guess now a days any one with no skill can captain a team(regardless of how bad they are) and lead them to the playoffs, for how many years. Also, i guess anyone off the street could captain a international team to gold in 2006. I guess its just really easy to be a point a game player now in the NHL. I can't wait for my career to take me to the top of a NHL organizations roster and one day i will captain a team and lead them in points year after year. Im only an average player, but if Sundin did it, then i can do it. |
Edited by - Thrasher on 01/22/2009 16:43:50 |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 22:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
[quote]Originally posted by Guest7752
You MUST be a leafs fan... he only got all these points because nobody on the leafs teams these past 20 years could play. Sundin would have been just another "Sedin" if he was on any other team. Get real man. I would NEVER put Sundin in the same class as Dave Keon, Darryl Sittler, etc... the REAL Leafs. And I'm an Oilers fan with respect for the game and respect for honestly good players that is saying that about the real leafs! Best player ever?? Stick to brews my friend, get off the smoke...
Nobody on the Leafs in the past 20 years could play? you are forgetting Doug Gilmour he recorded 452 points out of his 393 games he played as a Leaf, Dave Andreychuck, Mike Gartner, Glenn Anderson, Gary Roberts, Kirk Muller, Alexander Mogilny, Steve Thomas, Steve Sullivan, Jeff O'Neill, Joe Nieuwendyk, Owen Nolan, McCabe, Kaberle......etc lots more obviously could play very well. To say Toronto has had noone that could play hockey in the last 20 years is garbage talk...
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Edited by - hanley6 on 01/22/2009 22:45:03 |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2009 : 23:08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7752
- raymond bourque was old and he made immediate impact
- even claude lemieux is making a better impact than sundin
- guy lafleur made immediate impacts everywhere he went after leaving the habs
- saku koivu made an immediate impact after cancer surgery
- the great mario made an immediate impact after cancer surgery
there are more GREAT players i can list.... SUNDIN in NOT a great player.
get over it... Sundin IS a great hockey player, not the best but he is great... Not too many hockey players out there can play over 1000 games and have more Points than games played let alone to get a thousand points in a career is a GREAT achievement which only few NHL players have done that 72 players as of so far, which is a very small amount compared to all that have played in the NHL. Sure Sundin only has 3 points in his 7 games this season but he will pick it up, he always does... |
Edited by - hanley6 on 01/22/2009 23:13:10 |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 08:36:15
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72 players so far.... however: how many in this generation?
I'll bet you there will be double that in the next generation as more and more players are accumulating points faster and faster.
also, you cannot compare older generation players to newer generation - it is not the same game. you want to compare the rocket with the great one? NEVER !! so don't say "only" 72 players... there will be a lot more in the future....
deal with it, sundin is not a great player... like i keep saying... he's an average or good player... not worthy of being in any class like the real GREAT players. And surely not worthy of Hall of Fame.
finally, for who ever listed those old Toronto players that seemed to have been great players... they were all "good" players under the circumstances and conditions they were under at the time they were playing. They were all made to look "great" only because of unknowledgable and biased Toronto media and fans!!!
If Toronto had all these great players over the years (including Sundin)... how many cups did they win during those years????!? Or, let me ask it differently: how many cups did these "great" players lead Toronto to??? How great could they (and Sundin) have been?? |
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Guest9838
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 09:26:47
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Here's another perspective, because I think the whole leafs hate-fest biases the conversation.
If Sundin and Forsberg's fates were reversed and it had been Sundin to stay with Quebec/Colorado, with the same skill set, would people being looking at his career in a different way. He would possibly have a couple cups, he could possibly have an extra 200 pts playing with the likes of Joe Sakic his whole career, and he would never have had the stigma of being a leaf. On the flip side would Forsberg have hit his pts/game numbers, and brought a cup to Toronto where Sundin couldn't? I doubt it.
The same question could be asked if it was Sakic who was traded instead of Sundin. Would you all hate Joe if he had "only" 1300+ pts and no cups leading an often over-the-hill under skilled team to multiple playoff failures?
So my main question is would the same player, with the same skills on a different team with a couple of cups under his belt, a bunch more pts, be considered any differently by this hostile crowd? |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 10:40:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Here's another perspective, because I think the whole leafs hate-fest biases the conversation.
If Sundin and Forsberg's fates were reversed and it had been Sundin to stay with Quebec/Colorado, with the same skill set, would people being looking at his career in a different way. He would possibly have a couple cups, he could possibly have an extra 200 pts playing with the likes of Joe Sakic his whole career, and he would never have had the stigma of being a leaf. On the flip side would Forsberg have hit his pts/game numbers, and brought a cup to Toronto where Sundin couldn't? I doubt it.
The same question could be asked if it was Sakic who was traded instead of Sundin. Would you all hate Joe if he had "only" 1300+ pts and no cups leading an often over-the-hill under skilled team to multiple playoff failures?
So my main question is would the same player, with the same skills on a different team with a couple of cups under his belt, a bunch more pts, be considered any differently by this hostile crowd?
Nice points.
I"m definitely a "leaf" hater - no doubt about that. However, here is what I mean by "leaf".
(1) - Their Management - "only" in it for money. They don't give a crap about their players or their fans. As long as the television money comes in, and the first round playoff moneys come in - they've met their quotas and can give each bonuses.
(2) - Their Fans/Media - They've been waiting and hoping that this "team" wins something, or this "team" has a super star for long that they've forgotten what a Cup looks like and what a real super star is. They will jump on any "decent" player and put him on a pedestal high enough that the player will in turn put all that pressure on himself and end up not playing to his full capacity. Look at Cujo... he's not good enough to be #2 - let'sface it... so stop "hoping" he returns to his 10 year-ago form!! Poor guy. Fans are so hungry for a star that they will try to "hope" Cujo into becoming what he once was. Toskala is the same - he was a "great" #2, he can't handle being #1... Stop "hoping" this is the #1 you've been wanting all these years. Blake... same story. He's NOT the super star you were all "hoping" for. Stop crapping on him as you do with Toskala when they cannot deliver the "star" performance you're so desperately wanting.
(3) - I respect ALL the Toronto "players" over all these years that have played for this team. They all deserved a better place to play in.
As long as (AND Since) this managment continues this money making only philosophy - Toronto will never win a cup and will never have a super star. Never "did" win a cup and never "did" have a real super star.
To answer your excellent question:
""So my main question is would the same player, with the same skills on a different team with a couple of cups under his belt, a bunch more pts, be considered any differently by this hostile crowd?""
YES for me !!!
Sundin got caught up in the hype that leaf mangement, media and starving fans made over this "star" they so desperatley are looking for. And now that he's "out" of Toronto, he is going to be able to accuratley guage where his level of "stardom" is...
So: had this player, with the same skills been on a different team with some cups, and even the same points/game numbers... I think I would not have made such as stink - AND neither would he. He would have already known where he stood - he would not have been over-rated by media/fans/etc... and therefore, he too would not have over-rated himself.
I don't blame him for going after all this money... he's not stupid... i never said that. I'm just saying he is NOT the star that he and his followers in Toronto say he is or believe he is. |
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Guest7735
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 11:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7752
you're all missing the point - his entire career is NOT as great as you make it sound. (or as Toronto media made it sound)
he was the best on a crap team... now he's average on a good team.
for me - that's pretty funny how vancouver management fell into the trap.
montreal and others did the right thing... they walked away when they realized how ridiculas the asking price was for an average player.
Now... with the AMAZING play he's delivered... (HAAAA) vancouver management and their fans are probably realizing it too!!!
Sundin got caught up in the hype that toronto made over him... the toronto media and fans have no idea of a star player - they haven't seen a real one in years... so they got all horny over Sundin...
It's been like that for so long, even HE was lead to believe that he's ABOVE average
he was always just average... now that he's out of toronto, he's proving it!
Ok....so he left a CRAP team (one that had multiple 100 point seasons and 2 conference final visits under his watch) to a GOODteam ( one that will barley make the playoffs and missed them the past 2 of 3 years, and never has won a stanley cup in their history)
The Leafs still had Doug Gilmour when Sundin came to town, not to mention Curtis Joseph and Alex Mogilny when he was here as well, im pretty sure those guys were stars. So there goes the theory that we all 'horny' over this make beleive superstar. Montreal wanted him BAD, Gainey even flew out to sweden to try and convince him to join the Habs. Why is it that everyone involved in the NHL can see what a talent this guy is and has been, but you can't? I think your sheer hatred of toronto and its fans is blinding you from the truth.
You dont score 500 goals and well over 1000 points by just being 'average'... |
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Guest7735
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 11:44:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7752
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Here's another perspective, because I think the whole leafs hate-fest biases the conversation.
If Sundin and Forsberg's fates were reversed and it had been Sundin to stay with Quebec/Colorado, with the same skill set, would people being looking at his career in a different way. He would possibly have a couple cups, he could possibly have an extra 200 pts playing with the likes of Joe Sakic his whole career, and he would never have had the stigma of being a leaf. On the flip side would Forsberg have hit his pts/game numbers, and brought a cup to Toronto where Sundin couldn't? I doubt it.
The same question could be asked if it was Sakic who was traded instead of Sundin. Would you all hate Joe if he had "only" 1300+ pts and no cups leading an often over-the-hill under skilled team to multiple playoff failures?
So my main question is would the same player, with the same skills on a different team with a couple of cups under his belt, a bunch more pts, be considered any differently by this hostile crowd?
Nice points.
I"m definitely a "leaf" hater - no doubt about that. However, here is what I mean by "leaf".
(1) - Their Management - "only" in it for money. They don't give a crap about their players or their fans. As long as the television money comes in, and the first round playoff moneys come in - they've met their quotas and can give each bonuses.
(2) - Their Fans/Media - They've been waiting and hoping that this "team" wins something, or this "team" has a super star for long that they've forgotten what a Cup looks like and what a real super star is. They will jump on any "decent" player and put him on a pedestal high enough that the player will in turn put all that pressure on himself and end up not playing to his full capacity. Look at Cujo... he's not good enough to be #2 - let'sface it... so stop "hoping" he returns to his 10 year-ago form!! Poor guy. Fans are so hungry for a star that they will try to "hope" Cujo into becoming what he once was. Toskala is the same - he was a "great" #2, he can't handle being #1... Stop "hoping" this is the #1 you've been wanting all these years. Blake... same story. He's NOT the super star you were all "hoping" for. Stop crapping on him as you do with Toskala when they cannot deliver the "star" performance you're so desperately wanting.
(3) - I respect ALL the Toronto "players" over all these years that have played for this team. They all deserved a better place to play in.
As long as (AND Since) this managment continues this money making only philosophy - Toronto will never win a cup and will never have a super star. Never "did" win a cup and never "did" have a real super star.
To answer your excellent question:
""So my main question is would the same player, with the same skills on a different team with a couple of cups under his belt, a bunch more pts, be considered any differently by this hostile crowd?""
YES for me !!!
Sundin got caught up in the hype that leaf mangement, media and starving fans made over this "star" they so desperatley are looking for. And now that he's "out" of Toronto, he is going to be able to accuratley guage where his level of "stardom" is...
So: had this player, with the same skills been on a different team with some cups, and even the same points/game numbers... I think I would not have made such as stink - AND neither would he. He would have already known where he stood - he would not have been over-rated by media/fans/etc... and therefore, he too would not have over-rated himself.
I don't blame him for going after all this money... he's not stupid... i never said that. I'm just saying he is NOT the star that he and his followers in Toronto say he is or believe he is.
[ ADMIN EDIT ] . . . about The Toronto Maple Leafs or its players. You think the fans are idiots? We know Cujo isn't the same goalie he used to be, i've never heard anyone say the expect him to be the way he was. Jason Blake scored 40 goals before coming here, we expected at least 25...not 15!
The arguement that the management only cares about money is total BS as well. I guaran'f***ing;tee you that they all want to win BADLY. You dont think JFJ wanted to win? You dont think pat Quinn wanted to win? You dont think brian Burke wants to win? That just shows how little you know. Just because you HAVENT won, doesnt mean you arent trying to. The leafs have been bad the last 3 years, but they were a very good team for a long time before that so stick it up your oilers loving ass. By the wya, have you noticed how s*** your team has been for 20 years? |
Edited by - n/a on 01/26/2009 04:41:53 |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 11:55:15
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[/quote]
Ok....so he left a CRAP team (one that had multiple 100 point seasons and 2 conference final visits under his watch) to a GOODteam ( one that will barley make the playoffs and missed them the past 2 of 3 years, and never has won a stanley cup in their history)
The Leafs still had Doug Gilmour when Sundin came to town, not to mention Curtis Joseph and Alex Mogilny when he was here as well, im pretty sure those guys were stars. So there goes the theory that we all 'horny' over this make beleive superstar. Montreal wanted him BAD, Gainey even flew out to sweden to try and convince him to join the Habs. Why is it that everyone involved in the NHL can see what a talent this guy is and has been, but you can't? I think your sheer hatred of toronto and its fans is blinding you from the truth.
You dont score 500 goals and well over 1000 points by just being 'average'...
[/quote]
Couldn't hold back anymore... could you!!!
your first paragraph:
vancouver "was" a good team, until they hired Sundin to make them a "great" team. Look what happened.... he's starting to take them right out of the playoffs!!!!!
your second paragraph:
yes, leafs had Gilmore, Cujo, and Mogilny... add Sundin to the mix... and that's it!! That's the whole team. I'm sure these 3 forwards and 1 goalie were the entire team!!!! no-one else!!! so OF COURSE these 4 guys "appeared" GREAT to you and beloved Leaf/Sundin fans... everyone else was crap!!!!! THey appeared greater than they maybe should have 'cause you fans are so hungry for stars.
your montreal comment:
yes - gainey wanted him, until Sundin started to talk about money. Just about the time when it becamse known about the $20M Vancouver offer - then how SMART Gainey is - he stopped everything to do with Sundin!!! Dropped him like a hot potatoe... well done Gainey!
your Sundin talent comment:
everyone in the WORLD "thought" he had talent... he's now proving to what extent this talent really goes to, now that he's out of Toronto where everyone over-rated him.
Don't hold back... let it out!!! this is good therapy for Leaf Fans... someone has to tell them the truth.. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 12:05:30
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pfffh, dude. First of all, don't make it seem like we thought sundin was Mario Lemeiux ok. Second of all, he is 38 now. If Mats was 28, he would be blowing you away. To your point, we had cujo mogilny and sundn, that was it? Well, then Sundin sure had alot to do with a few 100 point seasons, consistent playoff births, the destruction of the ottawa senators 3 times (one series he was hurt) and 2 conference final visits. The guy had 80 points last year as a 37 a year old on an even worse leaf team than we have seen in years! Doesn't that say even more about how good this guy can be?
I think you are underestimating how good sundin was BECAUSE he was a leaf, not the other way around. his entire career people were saying "Can you imagine how much better this guy would be if had wingers to play with?" Now, you are saying that he wasnt that good and it was the other leafs who made him look good? Come on dude, get your head out of your leaf hating ass.
Also, Gainey was still after sundin WELL after it was known about the $20 mil offer from Vancouver. So was Philly, Ottawa and a couple other teams.
Every one in the world 'thought' he had talent? Well I guess that would be because the ENTIRE WORLD got to see him dominate in the 2006 olympics and CAPTAIN a gold medal winning team. If he wasn't nearly as good as you seem to think, wouldn't Lidstrom or Alfie, or maybe even Forsberg been captain instead? If those guys beleive in him and respect him, than I would think that there is more to Mats Sundin than you would have us beleive.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 12:15:48
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thanks for proving my point about leaf fans and sundin fans.
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 12:23:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Sundin sure had alot to do with the destruction of the ottawa senators 3 times
4 times |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 12:53:55
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4 times only??? in what 100 years total??
HAAAAAAA !!!! |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 13:16:26
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uh.... we destroyed ottawa 4 times, in the 4 times that we played them. I only said 3 times because sundin never played in the '02 series 'cause he was hurt. And thank you for proving my point about leaf haters.
Whatever though, I don't care if you hate the leafs and sundin or not, I was just trying to tell you that Sundin has been an awesome player througout his career, blame all of vancouvers problems on him if you want. I couldn't care less about the canucks anways.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest7735
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 13:18:12
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| In case you have been living under a rock, Ottawa has only had a team in the NHL since '92. if you do the math, it doesnt add up to 100 years. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2009 : 15:46:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Here's another perspective, because I think the whole leafs hate-fest biases the conversation.
If Sundin and Forsberg's fates were reversed and it had been Sundin to stay with Quebec/Colorado, with the same skill set, would people being looking at his career in a different way. He would possibly have a couple cups, he could possibly have an extra 200 pts playing with the likes of Joe Sakic his whole career, and he would never have had the stigma of being a leaf. On the flip side would Forsberg have hit his pts/game numbers, and brought a cup to Toronto where Sundin couldn't? I doubt it.
So my main question is would the same player, with the same skills on a different team with a couple of cups under his belt, a bunch more pts, be considered any differently by this hostile crowd?
We might look at the players a little differently, yes, but in the end we would still rank Forsberg higher as a hockey player because he simply played the game on a different level than Mats.
Whether the Leafs would have won a Cup with Forsberg is very questionable, I agree. BUT, their chances would have been better, and not just a little.
I am neither a Leaf hater or a Mats hater by the way. I think he was a very good hockey player at times. But my point on this and the other Best Euro thread is to make one thing very clear.
Mats Sundin is NOT one of the best European players ever. As pointed out in that other thread, he probably is not in the top 15 (not even considering goalies).
Along with the above point, since Ray Bourque's name has popped up in this thread, it should also be noted that Ray's Boston years (and his place in hockey history as a result of them) should be ranked at least a couple of rungs higher on the ladder than Mat's Toronto years (and his place in history as a result of them). That is no insult to Mats. Simply framing history properly.
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Edited by - andyhack on 01/23/2009 15:47:48 |
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Guest7828
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Posted - 01/23/2009 : 20:35:14
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well done.
you're basically solidifying my points against Sundin - however, you're much more polite than i was. I may exagerate.... a little.
So you'll receive way more repect for your comments than i ever will.
I just love trash talking Sundin, and tell it like it is, with a little extra spice just ot get these poor leaf fans going... boy did these guys get going!!
so "yes"... sundin does not belong along side foresburg, bourque, and other "real" stars... i agree.
he does not deserve "star" status as these others becuase he has (is) not consistantly played at levels he "sometomes" demonstrated when "stars" were at his side. (example the famous olympics)!!
Real stars made him look good.. he did NOT make average players look any better...
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Thrasher
Rookie
Canada
155 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2009 : 13:26:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7828
well done.
you're basically solidifying my points against Sundin - however, you're much more polite than i was. I may exagerate.... a little.
So you'll receive way more repect for your comments than i ever will.
I just love trash talking Sundin, and tell it like it is, with a little extra spice just ot get these poor leaf fans going... boy did these guys get going!!
so "yes"... sundin does not belong along side foresburg, bourque, and other "real" stars... i agree.
he does not deserve "star" status as these others becuase he has (is) not consistantly played at levels he "sometomes" demonstrated when "stars" were at his side. (example the famous olympics)!!
Real stars made him look good.. he did NOT make average players look any better...
Just wondering one thing. Who were the real stars on the Leafs organization when Mats played there? He was the heart and soul of the team, regardless of what anyone thinks. It was him that carried his team through the playoffs those years(and yes, obviously they never won the cup) but one player can only carry a team so far. I honestly don't understand your hate for the guy, but i dislike players in the NHL as well. But i just don't understand how we keep coming back to Sundin only being an average player. The guy WILL be in the Hall of Fame, probably in his first year eligible. And i could be wrong, but i think you just hate the leafs so much, that anyone who plays there becomes a target.
Just my opinion, but i don't think this thread should have been argued this far, but i commend your determination to trash a future famer. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 04:47:49
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Let's try to keep out the profanity and the personal attacks, boys.
Try arguing the point by using evidence please; you know you have lost the argument when you have to resort to name-calling.
Play fair, keep 'yer sticks on the ice, and we can ALL have a beer after the game! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 01/26/2009 : 07:16:56
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[[/quote]
Just wondering one thing. Who were the real stars on the Leafs organization when Mats played there? He was the heart and soul of the team, regardless of what anyone thinks. It was him that carried his team through the playoffs those years(and yes, obviously they never won the cup) but one player can only carry a team so far.
[/quote]
You're getting there... you almost got it.
Think of your quote above.
Response:
We agree here were no stars on those teams. And that's what made Sundin stand out. Everyone in Toronto and some "others" put him so high up there on a pedestal, only because there were no other players that media can drool on. So the fans were "brainwashed" into believing this guy was a superstar, thus OVER-RATED. There was no one else to "admire"!!
He definitley is not the man that would / could carry ANY team to a cup on his own. (Only MARIO, PATRICK, and few others did that).
Don't let his Olympic gold fool you... he had plenty of support, plenty of motivation, etc... Just like Kovalev in the all star game, he was in the right spot at the right time of his career - their respective teams made them captains out of respect more than anything else, and both these guys had support / motivation to go for it.
Why didn't Sundin play the way he did in the Olympics when Leafs were close to moving towards cups?
I'll tell you: Lack of Leadership on his part. And that lead to no support, no motivation, etc...
What kind of "super-star" is this?
More like "average". |
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Guest0976
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Posted - 01/26/2009 : 08:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9838
Here's another perspective, because I think the whole leafs hate-fest biases the conversation.
If Sundin and Forsberg's fates were reversed and it had been Sundin to stay with Quebec/Colorado, with the same skill set, would people being looking at his career in a different way. He would possibly have a couple cups, he could possibly have an extra 200 pts playing with the likes of Joe Sakic his whole career, and he would never have had the stigma of being a leaf. On the flip side would Forsberg have hit his pts/game numbers, and brought a cup to Toronto where Sundin couldn't? I doubt it.
The same question could be asked if it was Sakic who was traded instead of Sundin. Would you all hate Joe if he had "only" 1300+ pts and no cups leading an often over-the-hill under skilled team to multiple playoff failures?
So my main question is would the same player, with the same skills on a different team with a couple of cups under his belt, a bunch more pts, be considered any differently by this hostile crowd?
Not sure if this was really discussed enough, this might have been one of the only unbiased opinions in the last 20 posts. I agree put a guy on a different team and the entire picture changes. I am in no way a Sundin supporter or hater.
If Sakic had been traded to the leafs instead of Sundin and was now at say 1400+ pts, 1+ pt/game avg and had led the leafs to no cups but a bunch of somewhat close calls, he'd be just another loser right? is that what the anti-Sundin contingent is saying? And his Olympic Gold would be just a meaningless piece of hardware since he was surrounded by other greats in those games, regardless if he was the C or an A on the team and put in a buttload of pts. Because if you're a leaf the only way to get respect from non-leaf fans is to win the Stanley cup. That's a pretty high standard.
On the flip side If Sundin was in Colorado right now sitting with 1400+ pts and 2 cups, 1+ pt/game avg, we'd be discussing his entry into the hall of fame, his consistency, longevity, clutch scoring and strength down low. And the Olympic gold would be just another example of his above average ability.
I think this is really interesting, it's less about the player's skill then the team they're on in determining respect.
7752, just to come back to one other item you keep mentioning about Sundin being "average". If a 1 pt/game life time avg was the AVG, then games would be regularly in the double digits in goals... would't that be fun (except for goalies) |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 08:41:03
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Thank you for that post (see above). I've calmed down now. It's only been a week or so... GO LEAFS GO!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 11:04:10
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I've been reading through all this and am now wondering, what makes a player 'great' vs. 'good'?
Is it statistics? Longevity? Durablilty? Leadership? peer respect? Accomplishments?
I don't really know either, but, and don't get me wrong here, I'm an Oiler fan, but as a hockey fan first, how can it be so hard to call yourself a hockey fan, and be so biased because of where Sundin came from?
I you look at any of the requirements I listed above as to a player's grades towards being 'great' or 'good', how can you at least not recognize that Sundin satisfied most of them.
Statistically he is top 30ish in most categories which, in my opinion, is upper echelon, which would lean more towards great than good.
Long prodigious career with durability and consistency at just over a point a game, again leans more towards great than good.
Long time captain of a team that has as much history and prestige as any other, again must be better than good to have that honor.
From all accounts, very much admired and liked by peers throughout the league and internationally.
Everything but...a Stanley Cup.. not the only 'great' player to have never won one.
My point. If you're going to debate, debate on facts, not on rhetorical drivel. You wanna hate everything Leafs, go ahead, but don't call it facts, call it biased opinions. I say, good for you Sundin, if all these other veterans from the Bourques, to the Forsbergs, can go FA hunting, make a tidy fortune and/or get a shot at a cup, why wouldn't you be able to?
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Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 01/26/2009 11:05:34 |
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Thrasher
Rookie
Canada
155 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 13:26:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7752
Just wondering one thing. Who were the real stars on the Leafs organization when Mats played there? He was the heart and soul of the team, regardless of what anyone thinks. It was him that carried his team through the playoffs those years(and yes, obviously they never won the cup) but one player can only carry a team so far.
You're getting there... you almost got it.
Think of your quote above.
Response:
We agree here were no stars on those teams. And that's what made Sundin stand out. Everyone in Toronto and some "others" put him so high up there on a pedestal, only because there were no other players that media can drool on. So the fans were "brainwashed" into believing this guy was a superstar, thus OVER-RATED. There was no one else to "admire"!!
He definitley is not the man that would / could carry ANY team to a cup on his own. (Only MARIO, PATRICK, and few others did that).
Don't let his Olympic gold fool you... he had plenty of support, plenty of motivation, etc... Just like Kovalev in the all star game, he was in the right spot at the right time of his career - their respective teams made them captains out of respect more than anything else, and both these guys had support / motivation to go for it.
Why didn't Sundin play the way he did in the Olympics when Leafs were close to moving towards cups?
I'll tell you: Lack of Leadership on his part. And that lead to no support, no motivation, etc...
What kind of "super-star" is this?
More like "average".
Maybe i just cant see eye to eye with you(although i am trying). Exactly no stars on the leafs, but because sundin stood out, doesn't that make him that much better? HIM ALONE carried the team to all the playoffs those years. I mean any reason to trash the leafs and im normally all over it, but trashing sundin for just being average doesn't sit well for me. I think with all the results he has put up with a lack luster team speaks volumes for the way the guy plays hockey. |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 14:43:10
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Some quick trivia(since I am having a nice quiet day at work  )
Only Jagr and Kurri have more regular season points and goals.
Only Jagr, Kurri and Peter Stastny have more regular season assists.
Sundin has 557 goals.....and counting.
I of course realize that statistics are only part of a players attributes, but, these are numbers that cannot be overlooked when considering Sundin's place in things regarding non-North American born players.
I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't consider him as a HOF candidate. IMHO, he most certainly should be considered.
The guy can produce, consistently. I'm not saying that he is the greatest non-North american by any stretch, but he is certainly much more than some seem to think. The numbers above rank him as the 3rd highest non-North American born scorer in NHL history.
Jagr was arguably the best ever non-NA, and Kurri had the great fortune of being the go to guy for the greatest 'statistical' hockey player ever.
To be 3rd after these 2, is not too shabby at all.
And before anyone gets all bent out of shape and start spouting about his never winning a cup, as I mentioned earlier, he's not the only one.....Gilbert Perreault, no cup....Marcel Dionne...no cup...Peter Stastny..no cup...etc. These guys certainly would never be considered just 'good' or 'average'. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2009 : 20:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked
Some quick trivia(since I am having a nice quiet day at work )
Only Jagr and Kurri have more regular season points and goals.
Only Jagr, Kurri and Peter Stastny have more regular season assists.
Sundin has 557 goals.....and counting.
I of course realize that statistics are only part of a players attributes, but, these are numbers that cannot be overlooked when considering Sundin's place in things regarding non-North American born players.
I'm not sure why anyone wouldn't consider him as a HOF candidate. IMHO, he most certainly should be considered.
The guy can produce, consistently. I'm not saying that he is the greatest non-North american by any stretch, but he is certainly much more than some seem to think. The numbers above rank him as the 3rd highest non-North American born scorer in NHL history.
Jagr was arguably the best ever non-NA, and Kurri had the great fortune of being the go to guy for the greatest 'statistical' hockey player ever.
To be 3rd after these 2, is not too shabby at all.
And before anyone gets all bent out of shape and start spouting about his never winning a cup, as I mentioned earlier, he's not the only one.....Gilbert Perreault, no cup....Marcel Dionne...no cup...Peter Stastny..no cup...etc. These guys certainly would never be considered just 'good' or 'average'.
I'd easily rate Sundin better than Kurri... Gretzky made Kurri, Kurri was nothing without Gretzky out of the 931 games he played with Gretzky, Kurri had 1237 Points... without Gretzky is a whole different story. Without Gretzky in 320 games played he had 257 Points. Let me remind you within that 257 Points he played with a guy by the name of Mark Messier during 1988-89 and 1989-90 seasons Kurri got 195 points in 154 games... Now, without Gretzky or Messier, Kurri couldn't do anything he recorded 62 Points in 166 games, Kurri played 18 seasons in the NHL...Sundin is better than that, This season is Sundins 18th season and he's averaged at .43 this season. Sundin is going to pick up the pace like he always does, and if he started at the beginning of the season, he's have more points than Kurri's career. If Sundin (with the skills Sundin has) got to play with Gretzky for 931 games Sundin would have more points than Jagr. |
Edited by - hanley6 on 01/26/2009 21:07:37 |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2009 : 06:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
I'd easily rate Sundin better than Kurri... Gretzky made Kurri, Kurri was nothing without Gretzky out of the 931 games he played with Gretzky, Kurri had 1237 Points... without Gretzky is a whole different story. Without Gretzky in 320 games played he had 257 Points. Let me remind you within that 257 Points he played with a guy by the name of Mark Messier during 1988-89 and 1989-90 seasons Kurri got 195 points in 154 games... Now, without Gretzky or Messier, Kurri couldn't do anything he recorded 62 Points in 166 games, Kurri played 18 seasons in the NHL...Sundin is better than that, This season is Sundins 18th season and he's averaged at .43 this season. Sundin is going to pick up the pace like he always does, and if he started at the beginning of the season, he's have more points than Kurri's career. If Sundin (with the skills Sundin has) got to play with Gretzky for 931 games Sundin would have more points than Jagr.
Man, I wish I had more time.
Forget the Sundin aspect of this for a second.
For now, I can just say this - It is just UNTRUE, and more to the point, TOTALLY UNFAIR to say "Gretzky made Kurri".
This is from Wikipedia - "Although Kurri never won the Selke Trophy, he was regarded as one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL."
Do we give Wayne credit for that defensive play too Hanley6?
No time - gotta go - blood pressure rising  and my wife is cautioning me to calm down.
But this is an unfortunate and somewhat SAD side effect of Wayne's legacy.
Beans - I'm calling on you, as an Oiler guy, to please straighten Hanley6 out on this point. I gotta run!
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rross
Top Prospect
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2009 : 06:54:53
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It will be interesting to see what opinions arise as the season continues. But in all honesty, Vancouver has been without their best player(Luongo) for what....16 games? On top of Sundin gaining his form, so to Roberto will need time to regain his form. Sundin has looked better, and more comfortable with each game. Roberto looked good in their last game against San Jose. They have a four game homestand coming up and if they can win at least three of those games then the sundin trashing will lessen and the people defending him will say "I told you so". So yeah some players have come to new teams and performed well, but the team performed well at the same time. Sundin came in at a time when the team was struggling, so you can't put the Canucks troubles all on his shoulders.
Go Habs Go!! |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2009 : 09:52:42
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I don't know about Sundin over Kurri, I think Kurri was a gifted goal scorer and had the good fortune of playing with Gretzky. To say Gretzky made him is like saying Neely and Hull would have been nothing without Oates, or Bossy would have been average without Trottier...etc. When you are that talented of a goal scorer, there is more to it than who the setup guy is.
Now, that being said, I still think Sundin doesn't get the cred he deserves, for what he has done, but he's no Kurri...
ps. Beans isn't the only diehard Oilers fan...just the loudest.. |
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Guest9640
( )
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Posted - 01/29/2009 : 13:44:57
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Well, well... another Vancouver loss?
What... Sundin still hasn't found his legs?? His "soft" hands??
Maybe his lesdership skills aren't ready yet....
Couldn't even muster up a penalty to let the opposing team win??
By the way, wasn't it Trasher that said (in another forum) that when comparing Iginla to Neuwendyk, he'd rather NOT go with Iginla because... QUOTE: "no cup".
Well - that's sounds a little contradicting to me. Sundin has "no cup".
In that case, using math:
IF
Neuwendyk > Iginla
AND
Neuwendyk = CUP
THEN
Claude Lemieux > Sundin!!!!
Claude has helped, contributed, and LEAD all teams he's been on to CUPS!!!
Sundin did none of that with any team he's been on.
Such a Comedy...
I just can't stop laughing.
Claude will be in the HOF way faster then Sundin (if he ever gets there!) according to simple Math and Trashers logic.
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Thrasher
Rookie
Canada
155 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 16:00:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9640
Well, well... another Vancouver loss?
What... Sundin still hasn't found his legs?? His "soft" hands??
Maybe his lesdership skills aren't ready yet....
Couldn't even muster up a penalty to let the opposing team win??
By the way, wasn't it Trasher that said (in another forum) that when comparing Iginla to Neuwendyk, he'd rather NOT go with Iginla because... QUOTE: "no cup".
Well - that's sounds a little contradicting to me. Sundin has "no cup".
In that case, using math:
IF
Neuwendyk > Iginla
AND
Neuwendyk = CUP
THEN
Claude Lemieux > Sundin!!!!
Claude has helped, contributed, and LEAD all teams he's been on to CUPS!!!
Sundin did none of that with any team he's been on.
Such a Comedy...
I just can't stop laughing.
Claude will be in the HOF way faster then Sundin (if he ever gets there!) according to simple Math and Trashers logic.
If your talking about me, your wrong, i never said anything in that Thread, sorry. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 18:16:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9640
Well, well... another Vancouver loss?
What... Sundin still hasn't found his legs?? His "soft" hands??
Maybe his lesdership skills aren't ready yet....
Couldn't even muster up a penalty to let the opposing team win??
By the way, wasn't it Trasher that said (in another forum) that when comparing Iginla to Neuwendyk, he'd rather NOT go with Iginla because... QUOTE: "no cup".
Well - that's sounds a little contradicting to me. Sundin has "no cup".
In that case, using math:
IF
Neuwendyk > Iginla
AND
Neuwendyk = CUP
THEN
Claude Lemieux > Sundin!!!!
Claude has helped, contributed, and LEAD all teams he's been on to CUPS!!!
Sundin did none of that with any team he's been on.
Such a Comedy...
I just can't stop laughing.
Claude will be in the HOF way faster then Sundin (if he ever gets there!) according to simple Math and Trashers logic.
Dude, Claude Percy Lemieux may get into the Hall of Fame maybe, but Mats Sundin WILL get into the Hall of Fame as he deserves. Sundin deserves to be in the Hall of Fame more than Claude Lemieux... Lay off the crack pipe, its obviously affecting your brain from any hockey knowledge |
Edited by - hanley6 on 01/29/2009 18:17:11 |
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Guest9640
( )
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Posted - 01/29/2009 : 18:59:44
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dude... this is a trash talking forum where trash is towards hockey related issues, concerns, etc....
If you must resort to name calling, and personal attacks, you either have nothing to add to the conversation, or you have nothing to defend your opinions with, or you have nothing to respond to my opinion with....
But wait... you're a leaf fan.... that explains everything...
Trasher - i apologize for thinking you said that... i'll wait for more trash from Sundin before i get to post more of my trash towards him... then i'll get you going again |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 21:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9640
dude... this is a trash talking forum where trash is towards hockey related issues, concerns, etc....
If you must resort to name calling, and personal attacks, you either have nothing to add to the conversation, or you have nothing to defend your opinions with, or you have nothing to respond to my opinion with....
But wait... you're a leaf fan.... that explains everything...
Trasher - i apologize for thinking you said that... i'll wait for more trash from Sundin before i get to post more of my trash towards him... then i'll get you going again
you had absolutely have no point at anything you say about Sundin all you basically say is he sucks he did nothing for Toronto, he never won a cup, he makes you laugh Claude Lemieux's comeback is better than Sundin, and that Claude will make the hall of fame before Sundin...
What has Claude done this year???? absolutely nothing, what will he do for the rest of the season, nothing... What will Sundin do? He'll pick it up and get a bunch of points.. Once Sundin picks up his game a little, and it's not just Sundin its the whole team, Vancouver will make the Playoffs and they'll have a good shot at the Cup |
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Thrasher
Rookie
Canada
155 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2009 : 23:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9640
dude... this is a trash talking forum where trash is towards hockey related issues, concerns, etc....
If you must resort to name calling, and personal attacks, you either have nothing to add to the conversation, or you have nothing to defend your opinions with, or you have nothing to respond to my opinion with....
But wait... you're a leaf fan.... that explains everything...
Trasher - i apologize for thinking you said that... i'll wait for more trash from Sundin before i get to post more of my trash towards him... then i'll get you going again
Ha ha im looking forward to it. Your determination to trash Sundin is enviable to be sure, and your making this forum rather exciting. However, you have not brought a point to make me change my mind, so i still believe Sundin is better than what you are saying. Convince me otherwise, although im not sure that can be done, because i hold Sundin in fairly high regard |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 05:07:55
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Even as a Leafs fan, I am not sure if I care enough about this topic to nitpick over the graduations of how great a player is/was . . . that being said, I can 100% guarantee Sundin is going into the HOF. If that happens, people with a heck of a lot more hockey knowledge than most of us will be deciding that, and I will take their opinion over that of an anonymous poster looking to get a rise out of someone.
Let me see . . . how to rate Sundin . . . ok, I'll just make my list of the all-time greatest Euros and stop when I get to him:
1. Jagr
2. Forsberg
3. Kurri
4. Stastny
5. P. Bure
6. Mikita
7. Hasek
8. Sundin
I got him 8th, but who knows who I missed . . . Salming would be right after him.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest2784
( )
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Posted - 01/30/2009 : 05:40:14
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| If you think about it Sundin isnt doing that great right now but at least he is in the NHL again and still trying. He has an average goals a game average that is better than a lot of player in the league. And you also need to consider this, Luongo is an amazing goaltender but he has been hurt for months now.Since hes been back hes played just OK , but thatll be better soon and Vancouver will be in 5th place or better GAURENTEED. San Jose might win the cup but unless Claude Lemieux scores the game winning goal he will not have been the reason they won, but you know what who cares they are still making more money in one season that most will never make in theyre lives, theyre still better hockey players then anyone here is ever going to be so WHO CARES. |
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Guest9655
( )
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Posted - 01/30/2009 : 06:06:41
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hanley... stop crying.
You come out looking like a cry-baby... "Sundin will...... Lemieux won't..."
You can predict the future?
Get a grip!!
It's a trash talk forum, and probably not for children.
I have trash talked Sundin at every post, and have grown to admire responses and comments by all who bothered to respond. Trasher especially.
One must stop taking everything so personnally when debating...
For the last guest that ended with "who cares"... well obviously you do.
Why did you bother responding then?
Now back to trash talking Sundin... As a leader on this Vancouver team, why did he not step in and stop the internal "fighting"?
Is there some sort of line he can't cross because he is not the captain?
Maybe afraid to hurt Luongo's feelings? Are both these guys walking on egg-shells as I mentioned a while back? Who's the real captain?
Boy, Sundin really made a mess out there.... |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2009 : 07:26:32
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haha, wow, all this trash talk is just going in circles. Ok dude, you've convinced me. Sundin sucks dirty donkey balls and should never have been allowed to play in the NHL to begin with. I'd rather have Jonas Hoglund as my captain than Mats Sundin.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Sundin Comedy 
