| Author |
 Topic  |
|
admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
 Posted - 05/05/2009 : 23:22:56
|
Poll Question:
With his offer of $212.5 million for the Phoenix Coyotes, will the NHL finally allow Jim Balsillie to own an NHL franchise?
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 04:04:04
|
My yes vote comes with a condition: there must be much lawyering, humming, hawing, hair-pulling, negotiation, looks-like-we're-pulling-out . . . oh-wait-we're-back-in-it, bowing down to Count Bettman, bribery, at least three potential location changes, a red herring, and then, suddenly, we will have another team in southern Ontario.
I think.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
 |
|
|
Guest4771
( )
|
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 04:43:24
|
| I think they might. Southern Ontario is a much greater market for a hockey team and now, in the midst of a recession, money is everything. The NHL would be foolish to decline this offer. |
|
|
|
just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 09:16:28
|
| Bettman must be pissed!! A lot of legal wrangling for this one. If the Coyotes do move, and assuming they would be moved to the Eastern Conference, what team would move to the West? |
|
|
|
pensfan17
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
330 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 10:23:34
|
They could make it so there are only two divisions in each conference.
WEST
Division 1: Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, San Jose, Anaheim, LA, Dallas, and Colorado.
Division 2: The entire Central division plus Minnesota and Balsile's team.
EAST
Division 1: All the Northeast division plus the two NY teams and Jersey
Division 2: All the Southeast Division plus Pittsburgh and Philly.
4 playoff teams in each division. |
|
|
|
Guest9838
( )
|
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 10:24:19
|
If a new GTA team emerged it would be tough to reform the divisions in the west, perhaps it would look like this:
NW: Van, Edmon, Cal, Min, Chicago
SW (Pacific): San, LA, Ana, Col, Dal
CN: Det, Clb, Nash, StLouis, Pitt
NE: Tor, Ott, Mtl, Buff, New Team
Atl: Bos, NYR, NYI, NJ, Phil
SE: Wash, Car, Atl, Tampa, Fld
I say Pitts or Atl would move into the west, but who knows...
A team back in Winnipeg would be geographically easier to fit into the league. It would go into the NW and Colorado would drop into the Pacific. |
|
|
|
just1n
PickupHockey Pro
282 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 10:33:45
|
| Looking at a map quickly, it looked like Pittsburgh was the furthest West of the Eastern teams, just barely. The Pens or Thrashers in the West just sounds weird, but the Leafs were in the West before the Nordiques went to Colorado... |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 11:18:36
|
In a word, no.
This will not happen. There are far too many legal issues involved. Can the bankruptcy court force the move?? Will the NHL just allow that to happen without appeal??? What about Toronto and Buffalo?? What about the NHL board of governors ability to manage their own business?? What about the long term lease in the building in Phoenix??
Too many questions to answer.
This is just another shot by Balsillie to get more support from the average Joe Canadian hockey fan.
Stranger things have happened and I might be completely wrong, but I just don't see the deal being able to jump through so many legal hoops. What I see happening is the Bankruptcy court stating they can not accept an offer on the condition of moving and will move to the next offer without such conditions, which appears to be the owner of the White Sox. He also has ties in Phoenix and the team would stay put which makes the NHL happy.
We will see tomorrow after the courts get involved. |
|
|
|
Guest9838
( )
|
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 12:42:47
|
This is definately going to be the closest attempt either way. The bankrupcy filing was a pretty interesting way to go. If he didn't slap on the movement condition it might have been a slam dunk for at least owning a team.
The court will most likely not want to try to enforce that condition and so give the franchise to the next highest bidder. But on the other hand the rights of the creditors have to be taken into account. How much would that suck to lose out 100 million on a bid because the NHL wants to keep ICE hockey in a desert. |
|
|
|
Guest7621
( )
|
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 14:07:24
|
Bettman will never allow another Canadian team in the league. All he can see are numbers, and in his skewered mind it would detract fom established teams. On top of that he feels the market is too saturated in S. Ont. Of course thats just his opinion, and I'd like to think he is wrong.
Putting a team in a region rich wih hockey culture, with tickets hopefully cheaper than the Leafs, makes way more sense than attempting to promote the game in a region that may see frost once a year.
But then again, I'm just a 'Nucks fan living in Alberta. Lots of people say I'm Nucking Futs! |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/06/2009 : 15:28:47
|
I am not sure if Bettman would never have another Canadian team, I think it's bigger than that.
To be honest, I think it is many people not seeing the forest for the trees.
The thing that almost every league commish I have ever heard speak always say they regret is moving established teams. It's not good for the league. It makes it so if a team is not doing well, move them. Or it put a gun to the league's head if an owner isn't happy, they will threaten to move. There are people within every league that are qualified to provide the information and every owner must have the ability to aide in that decision.
I think that the NHL board as well as Bettman will put teams where they make sense based on studies and information, not based on a Cowboy that has a goal of a team in Southern Ontario. Maybe it would make better sense to have a team in Winnipeg or Quebec City first??? It's up to the league and board to make these decisions, not a single renegade owner. (Who isn't even an owner. If he wants to be an owner so bad, he had the opportunity today to buy argueable the most storied franchise in the NHL. His goal is not being an owner, he wants to do it his way and he is not bigger than the entire league)
I agree that Southern Ontario would make sense for a team and would be a profitable product. But, I am not one making the calls and I definately agree that it's not up to Balsillie to make that decision for the league. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 05/06/2009 15:32:05 |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 05:30:59
|
I totally disagree, Beans.
The NHL and Bettman have used every argument in the book not to move a franchise back to Canada, citing stuff like you mentioned - continuity of the league franchises, stability, etc.
Where was the stability argument for Quebec? For Winnipeg? They were established teams, weren't they? Look back at how much money they were losing, and the fan support they got, with how Phoenix, Atlanta, Florida, Nashville are doing.
The NHL has used such fuzzy logic in denying southern Ontario another team at every turn that I can only come to the conclusion that it has nothing to do with money or stability of the league. Based on the COLD HARD FACTS OF COMMERCE, the team should have already moved to Hamilton. They would be a viable franchise in a hockey mad market, as opposed to a propped-up financial venture in a dead market for hockey that has to be saved from bankruptcy by the league that supposedly "put the team where they make sense based on studies and information". What fricking studies can you show me that said hockey could be sold as entertainment in Phoenix?!? Because I can guarantee you right now that ticket sales and revenue from another southern Ontario franchise (Hamilton, GTA or Kitchener) would beat 75% of the rest of the league. I don't need any ridiculous arguments (like the ones used to get a team in Atlanta and Phoenix) to justify a team in Hamilton . . . before they even had the possibility of a team, HALF THE SEASON TICKETS WERE SOLD.
And lastly, we the public HAVE BEEN DEMANDING ANOTHER TEAM IN SOUTHERN ONTARIO. When will the NHL listen to the fans they are supposed to be entertaining and serving?
I say good luck to Balsillie and his lawyers - they know they have to break in by force, as they are actively being resisted by Bettman and his cronies. Creditors will want to get paid, and the judge could easily decide to overrule the NHL's decision here.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Guest9308
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 05:46:58
|
How does everyone feel about Jim Balsillie's move to aquire the Phoenix franchise?
If you are a fan of the move, check out this website and register at; www.makeitseven.ca
Read Bob Mckenzie's column here, http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie/?id=277696, it sheds some light on the financial aspects of the situation.
Make no mistake about it, this involves a whole ton of ego and pride, Balsillie's plan is not part of the leaque's agenda, and we all know who creates the agenda. Yes, Balsillie has ego and pride too, but ask yourself, if you had a billion dollars and wanted to purchase an NHL franchise...where would you want to put it?
|
|
|
|
Guest9308
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 05:47:31
|
Just a quick note to attach to the discussion.
A NHL report detailing the ticket/team revenues from 30 teams revealed that six (6) Canadian teams account for 31 percent of the 1.1 billion in league ticket revenue. These same 6 teams have also posted double digit increases over last season.
Der Commisar knows that if he adds one or two more Canuck franchises there is the possibility they will end up accounting for closer to 40 percent of league ticket sales and revenue...or more. That is not what he envisioned.
Thereby killing the grand dream of hockey in Hawaii. |
|
|
|
Guest0444
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 05:54:41
|
The NHL is very stupid in the fact that they want more interest in the USA.............Even through the fans can't support their teams.
How can NY Ranger, NJ Devils, NY Islanders all share the same market,,,,and support their teams, sure their is 6 million in the NY Area, but Toronto, now has about 3 million with the surrounding area.
The Leafs will not allow, this to happen. They are a orginal 6 team, and have alot to say with the NHL. Besides this will force them to put a quality team on the ice......And they don't want to waste all the money they are making, as the largest money making sports team in North America.
It costs the average person a min of $500.00 per person, to watch a leaf game...once the night is done. Do you think that the leafs will allow another team to come into their market, and put that fan base at risk............................I SAY NOT.............
I say the people in Toronto, has to boycot the leafs to make this happen...........In other words not show up to the games....... |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 06:43:03
|
Oh - and let me add one more important point:
NO OTHER NHL TEAM HAS VETO POWER OVER A FRANCHISE MOVING CLOSE BY. This would go against well-established anti-competition laws and other pro sports precedents (with much more money at stake, I might add - see:NFL). The fact that a team like Buffalo or Toronto might demand financial compensation is a given - they would have to prove with hard numbers the amount by which revenue would fall with a new franchise nearby, and go through arbitration to decide on the amount. But they would certainly be unable to legally prevent the franchise from existing.
This is all about Bettman, and the board of governors who back him, not giving the fans what they want: a thriving, money-making 7th franchise in Canada.
This isn't about the NHL allowing Balsillie to own a franchise . . . they already don't want him in, because they don't want another Canadian frianchise. This is going to be about Balsillie FORCING his way in through the courts, so that he can give the public what they want!
I look forward to attending a future hockey game in Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo, London, the GTA . .. or North Bay.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Guest5867
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 07:21:05
|
| vancouver will go into the pacific and chicago will go into the north west, and hamilton/new team will go into the centeral |
|
|
|
Scaught
Top Prospect
Canada
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 08:59:04
|
(formerly guest 9308)
You could take the question I asked earlier (if you had a billion dollars...)and change it to, if you were a smart businessman where would you put a franchise?
The numbers don't lie, demographics and solid financial number crunching tell you it's in Canada.
Check out the latest on the Tampa franchise. You wonder what percentage of ticket sales in Florida and other US franchises are Canadian?
My guess is that Balsillie will get a franchise one way or another.
(ADMIN NOTE: Thanks for setting up an account and welcome to the site Scaught! Also thanks for moving your thoughts to this thread from the other one. Very appreciated!) |
|
|
|
Guest3385
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 09:01:50
|
| No. It will never happen. |
|
|
|
Guest5440
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 09:03:08
|
| Put Detroit in the East and let's see how good they really are. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 11:34:44
|
One thing that was very interesting to me.
Total League Revenue's in 2008 were $2.747 billion
Candian Teams = $684 million (25%)
American Teams = 2.063 billion (75%)
Operating Income (Margin/Profit if you will)
Total League = $141.5 million
Canadian Teams = $149.1 million
American Teams = $-7.6 million
This means that with only 25% of the revenue, the 6 Canadian teams produced 105% of the profits. The American Teams cost the league 5% of their profits. There is not a single Canadian team losing money.
Now, not all American Teams are unproducive. The Rangers and Stars produces more revenue and more profit than Edmonton, Vancouver, Calgary, and Ottawa combined. However, of the 24 American NHL teams, 50% made money and 50% lost money. Carolina, Phoenix, Florida, Buffalo, NYI, St. Louis, Columbus, Washington, Atlanta, Boston, Philladelphia, and Nashville lost $83 million. (In that order, most money lost to least)
Taking a look at that list, some are a surprise. This is 2008 season info as the 2009 has not been released that I can find.
|
|
|
|
Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 11:36:26
|
The NHL may not have as much power on this as some think. it is very much in the bankruptcy judges hands, and Ballsillie's offer is by far the best offer out there. Apparently he has put forward a VERY sound proposal looking at all the angles and loopholes.
The judges priority, first and foremost is to protect the creditors, so he may have no choice to give it to Balsillie. Now I understand that the board of govenors has some say in this, but I'm just not sure how much sway they are going to have on the final descision. One other thing playing against Bettman is that the NHL is actually the second largest secured creditor of the Coyotes, and Balsillie's offer all but guarantees that the $35M the leagues is owed is going to be paid. In this economic climate, that may be more of a draw than anything.
Besides, this ream has absolutely no business being in Phoenix. Most have been saying that for years. However it plays out, it should be interesting to watch. |
|
|
|
Scaught
Top Prospect
Canada
4 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 12:31:49
|
I think much of this is about saving face. Nothing else makes any sense. Hockey is a business, plain and simple. You have a better offer on the table and the current position of the club in Phoenix is untenable. Why wouldn't you allow the club to be moved. Balsillie puts future tickets up for sale in Hamilton and gets something like 10,000 to sign up. I checked a bunch of blogs and online petitions to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix and I could only find a little over 200 signatories. I'll bet there are more Coyote fans in Canada.
Sports Fans = Horse
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink...or buy tickets.
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 12:55:48
|
Let's look at the Rangers, Islanders and Devils.
2008 Revenue
Rangers - $137 Million
Islanders - $64 Million
Devisl - $97 Million
2008 Operating Income
Rangers - $30.7 Million
Islanders $-8.8 Million
Devils - $1.9 Million
So let's consider for a second that the area of New York and New Jersey are substantially larger in population than the GTA and Buffalo. In New York alone there are nearly 3 million more people than the GTA.
If the New York/New Jersey area, with more people can not sustain 3 profitable teams, how can the GTA and Buffalo area do it?? It's not as cut a dry as people think. It might be great for a period of time, but long term, I don't see it as clearly. And is it really an improvement if TO loses revenue and profits for the new team to pick up??? |
|
|
|
Guest6004
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 14:10:25
|
beans you need to do some more research what was torontos profit how many people reside in area say cambridge within 30 50 min drive
how many hockey fans in southern ont vs new york and the three teams you mention only one is in new york- islanders long island think scarbourough new jersy um new jersey and think long term islanders 30 plus years rangers 50? plus even jersey has to be close to 30 and islanders have been pathethic for yrs so the fact they made a profit is ammazing. Besides basille is a billinarie i dont think he got htere by rash decisions. and let me see winnipeg quebec minnesota if basille gets to own it he will move it. nothing nhl can do but negoatiate terms. H e is just trying to protect buffalo another franchise propped up by cdn fans. ps toront has roughly 5 mill people but cant get 2000 into marlie game yet winnipeg can sell out 17000 and im guessing your from the west with natural bias vs toronto majority of ontarios pop. and for that matter canada is in southern ont |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 17:01:44
|
Ok, I have a vague idea of what you said. It would be very beneficial to use puncuation.
Just as a perspective, there are 13 million people in all of Ontario. There are over 20 million people in New York. Ontario is nearly 20 times the size of Ontario.
The GTA, from what I found for population information, has 5.5 million people. New York City (just the 5 boroughs)has 8.2 million people. And in 8 million from New Jersey and and 3.5 from Conneticut and you have nearly 4 times the population of the GTA in an area about the same size.
If New York has a hard time sustaining the 3 teams, how is GTA/Buffalo going to do it. Buffalo is a money losing team today, why add another team to the area??
I guess we will have to wait until next week to see what it going to happen next, unless the Cowboy decides to pull some other crap off before then.
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 17:10:26
|
GTA is closer to around 7 million, and that is not counting the large tertiary markets of London, Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge, Barrie, St.Catherines and Peterborough.
Of those people in the New York area, how many watch hockey faithfully every Sat night? How many chat about winning a Leafs ticket one of these days? How many are involved in hockey pools, wear hockey Jerseys, would be interested in seeing a game even though they don't really follow the standings?
Not many, I'd wager - but in Toronto, and the areas I mentioned, I could pick 10 random people off the street and at least 7 would know at least a bit about hockey, and probably one or two would be fans of the game (bare minimum). We BREATHE hockey up here, so please:
DO NOT COMPARE AMERICANS CARING ABOUT HOCKEY TO PEOPLE IN THE GTA.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 19:40:27
|
Whoa, did I strike a nerve?? I don't think it's unfair to compare the New York hockey fans to the fans in the GTA. Obviously, with 2 NFL teams, 2 NBA teams, 2 MLB teams, and 2 NHL teams, there are more than enough hockey fans in New York.
Wow.
In the end, my biggest problem is not another team coming to Canada. Obviously, what I posted shows that Canada makes more money and is more important to the NHL that all of the 24 American Teams combined. However, I have an issue with a maverick billionarrie making decisions for the league. The NHL board of Governors still have the ultimate ability to make this decision.
If Balsillie really wanted to own a team, he could have by now. If he wasn't so eager to move a team, he could have bought Nashville or Phoenix already, kept them for a couple years with poor attendance and then petition to move the team. He would have been far more successful and far more likely to have his beloved 2nd team in Southern Ontario.
I wonder what will happen if the Courts approve Balsillie's offer, but then the Board of Governor's decline the move. Will Balsillie have a pro hockey team in Hamilton without a league to play in???
That would be poetic justice. |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 19:45:55
|
Here is another really interesting thing I just thought about.
What if Balsillie was trying to move a team from Canada to the US??? There would be a HUGE backlash!! So, why is it right for him to be doing the same thing to an American Team??
That's my point. Just because you might think that there should be more Canadian teams, there is a right and wrong way to do it. This is dangerous. If Balsillie can do this, it creates the ability for anyone to do it. What happens if next time it's American Billionarrie who wants to move a Canadian team south??? It will be open season without the ability for the NHL to do anything about it.
|
|
|
|
Guest0838
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 19:46:40
|
Nicely said SloZo....................
Any way, it will be interesting.....Hey if he has that much money, why don't he just start a new leaque.......and compete with the nhl......
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 19:50:08
|
A problem with a maverick billionaire? Or was that . . . not following the rules? Or was it . . . not sure that the team is going to be viable in the GTA? Oh, wait - he could have already had the team already if he was a sneaky liar, right?
Bettman has already been stopping Balsillie at every move for a year or two, knowing his intention, gathering support from the governors to back him. Now, Balsillie is taking the fight to get in public - and through the courts. It's the only way that has been given to him at this point.
Eventually, I have to think the governors will wake up and smell the money in Ontario.
Top story on the National tonight (in between regulation and o/t)?
Legal proceedings from a hearing to see if there is a slight chance that another hockey team may be allowed to move to southern Ontario.
Somebody get me the top 10 stories from Phoenix local TV . . . dollars to donuts, hockey isn't mentioned!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 19:59:57
|
Slozo, completely agree with one piece. Phoenix is not a hockey town. It is a perfect example of a novelty. For the first few seasons, it worked. But the were never a winning team and Phoenix is not a hockey city (like others in Canada) where fans would watch the same team lose year after year, in some cases for over 40 years.  (Couldn't resist)
However, I still don't like the way Balsillie is going about it. If it was such a good idea, don't people think the Board of Governors would have tossed out Bettman and allowed either of the two other buy and move deals that Balsillie has failed on??? This is bigger than Bettman.
And that brings up another thought. There have been many franchises move in the past 20 years. Not a single one of them were ever considered for Southern Ontario. And this is not sarcastic, but if there is so much money there, and such a sustainable hockey market, why is Balsillie the only person willing to put the money up to fund a team there??? |
|
|
|
Guest7098
( )
|
Posted - 05/07/2009 : 23:04:47
|
| The judge in Bankruptcy Court has the upper hand over the NHL in this matter.We'll see Hamilton Coyotes by September. |
|
|
|
Guest6503
( )
|
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 00:46:16
|
| This would be awesome if the could put another team in SW Ontario and then leave them in the western conference because then we could have the battle of Ontario for the cup!!!! |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 05:18:21
|
Beans - you are making my point for me. The decision not to put another team in southern Ontario for around 20 years is clearly not based on finance and economics, especially when the PUBLIC HAVE BEEN DEMANDING IT for such a long time! And, you cannot forget the economics of what once was a very weak Canadian dollar in the eighties, whereas now it is a lot stronger. The only reason Winnipeg lost their franchise is because of two things: a weak Canadian dollar, and a huge inflation of player salaries.
"I don't like the way he is going about it" - it should not matter one iota whether Bettman doesn't like the way Balsillie does things, or whether the board of governors think he is a 'new money' schmuck that they don't feel would fit into their 'good old boy' country club lifestyle, or if you think he smells bad. Balsillie has had the money for some time, it is obvious to nearly everyone that another team near Toronto would be wildly successful, and we even have hard cash as physical proof of this (the season tickets sold for Hamilton in the Nashville bid). In any other league, they would have jumped at this money-making opportunity!
It is obvious that there have been strong ulterior motives for some time now to prevent another team from coming here - why, I can only speculate.
ARGUMENT #1: Moving a team would create instability, and endanger all the other franchises who are not making that much money.
Well, why didn't the NHL cover Winnipeg's losses then back in the day? The Canadian gov't actually got involved, but the NHL took a hardline stance then - basically saying, if you're not profitable, you're not viable. Same with Quebec City. So why is there a double standard applied to Phoenix or Nashville?
We can look at examples from the other pro sports, and decide for yourselves if the NBA, NFL or MLB put themselves into danger for moving some teams around. The NFL still makes the most money of all pro sports, but between '95-'97 there were no less than 4 team re-locations, 5 if you count the fans forcing Cleveland back after a few years. The NFL seems to be doing just fine. And, they all know - if your city doesn't make money for a while, you SHOULD be in danger of losing the franchise - after all, isn't the whole point to be making money?!? That's why the franchises should only be in markets that can actually support them in the first place.
Nobody thought the NFL was in trouble in the late 90's . . . in fact, they were making record profits. Why? Because they demand that all their franchises be MAKING MONEY.
ARGUMENT #2: Balsillie is going about it the wrong way.
Tough s***. Seriously, this is business, people. If you think these owners aren't mostly a bunch of sharks themselves who haven't left a financial trail of bodies behind them, you are mistaken. There is some old money, but even they are cutthroat when it comes to backroom, underhanded deals. When they cry foul over a potential owner trying to substantiate a market by selling season tickets prior to getting it - I can only laugh and shake my head. What, the proper way would have been to submit a stupid study done by a consulting group which has a vested interest in giving a positive result? Look at Phoenix - THEY did it the right way, do you think they are a viable hockey market? This "following the rules" crap is bulls***, no ifs ands or buts.
The bottom line for everything is MONEY. If he has the money, and the market is viable (demonstrably shown already), THEN HE HAS FULFILLED THE REQUIREMENTS.
ARGUMENT #3: Other teams like Buffalo will suffer and be put at risk.
Ok, well - if they aren't making money, and the market isn't viable, WHY WOULD WE WANT THEM THERE? Pro sports is a money making venture, period. If suddenly the fans in southern Ontario are better served by a team close by, and the attendance in Buffalo plummets, then I have no problem with them moving as well. It'd be too bad, especially considering that we are already stealing their football team - but tough luck! Winnipeg I think deserves a franchise too, but if it isn't economically viable, then it's no good!
The whole point of Gary Bettman's job is to make the NHL more profitable by steering it towards economic stability. Why isn't he doing his job? If the Winnipeg franchise had gone to Hamilton or Kitchener, it wouldn't be in the same situation as Phoenix right now, that I can guarantee.
So I say: POWER TO THE PEOPLE - Give us what we demand! We shouldn't have to jump through your hoops, ask nicely, or go through a ridiculous set of protocols . . . we have the hundreds of thousands of people who are willing to pay, cash in hand - so bring us another team, Balsillie!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
|
|
|
Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 05:43:26
|
We shouldn't waste time with this, we all know Bettman doesn't want another Canadian team.
I hear Bettman already has plans for the Alabama Hammers and the Arkansas ____ (Can't think of anything)....but yea, you get my point!
"Everytime you step out onto the ice, it's a clean slate, anyone can win" |
|
|
|
Guest9838
( )
|
|
|
umteman
PickupHockey Pro
USA
662 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 10:13:23
|
It is clear that the league doen't want another team in Canada. They have blocked Balsille's previous attempts to but the Predators and the Penguins and they will block his attempt to buy the Coyotes. But getting out of the desert would be a good move for the franchise. I think Milwaukee may be ripe for an NHL team. The Admirals play in Bradley Center, an NHL size arena (NBA's Bucks play there), and it wouldn't be the only city to host both an NHL and AHL team, eg., Flyers/Phantoms.
Did you hear about the retired proctologist? He spent 40 years saying "what's a place like this doing in a girl like you?" |
|
|
|
JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 11:37:07
|
Hey Bean's, a thought occurred to me.
About 5-10 years ago the Flames, Oiler's needed Alberta lotteries money and the NHL's support to survive. Ticket revenue, canadian dollar and arena revenue could not provided sufficient income. This was including a team payroll well below cap level. They could not ice a competitive team on income and were considering a move to a Eastern or southern market. Could you imagine the Hamilton Oiler's or the GTA Flames.
I lived in Calgary at that point and remember think Bettman was the culprit here. In the end both Calgary and Edmonton retained there teams got more rights and revenue with there stadiums and the canadian dollar swung our way. I dont know which roll Bettman played in the retention on these team's, but I am glad for the 5-10 years of hockey.
I can see Bettman's point in not evacuating a market, but the fan's supported the teams in these markets. If Jim Balsillie can secure an arena which has capacity and can generate revenue in Southern Ontario I for one would like to see a team there. I remember Winnipeg and the business community having a season ticket drive, trying to retain the team. If they had more revenue sources or own there own arena, I believe we would still have a competative team in Manitoba.
|
|
|
|
Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 16:39:36
|
It's no different than other areas of the business world. A guy can't just buy a Tim Horton's location and move it to a different town. That has to be approved and sanctioned by Tim Horton's. The guy selling it can't claim bankruptcy and have someone buy it on a condition of moving it. It is and always will be the decision of Timmy's corporate where their locations are.
Think about objectively for a second. If as soon as a team started losing money, 1/2 the league would be moving every season! Carolina lost $2 million more than Phoenix did in 2008. Move them! The Devils have lost money in 4 of the last 5 seasons. Move them! Pittsburgh was bankrupt and needed new owners. Should have moved them! Edmonton and Calgary were on their face in the mid 90's, should have moved them. Geez, just 2 years ago the Flames lost nearly a million dollars, they should be moved immediately!!
Edmonton is a perfect example. Through the mid-90's, without the league support and literally scraping until the last day to get enough season ticket holders, they were gone. Now, they have sold out for the past 2 seasons straight, have a waiting list for seasons tickets, and contribute the 6th most profits to the league with the 3rd lowest seating arena. But, according to many people, they were losing money so they should have been moved immediately and put into a market where there are already 2 teams with one of them not making money.
Why does Balsillie get his own way?? Because fans want it??? Because you want it, doesn't make it right. It's circumventing the rules for his own personal mission. Why is it that Bettman was literally on his way to confirm a offer from Jerry Reinsdorf (majority owner of the Chicago Bulls and Chicago White Sox) when this bankruptcy deal/auction happens??? It's dirty. It opens up things in the NHL that no one wants (ie, moving teams whenever, where ever) and people are thinking with their blinders on because there are so many people who want a team in Southern Ontario.
If this was an American Owner using the same tactics to move a Canadian team to an American market, the people who are agreeing with Balsillie's actions would be up in arms. This isn't about having a team in Southern Ontario. I agree that it would be better for the game, more supported, and more profitable than Phoenix. But I am not convinced that it is the best place to have a team. The gent above from Winnipeg brought up some very good points about that city. But there is a process and a way to do this. The bottom line is that the way this is happening is dangerous and as I said, if the shoe was on the other foot (Canadian team moving to the States without the ability for the NHL to be involved), people would be losing the effen minds!
|
Edited by - Beans15 on 05/08/2009 16:43:52 |
|
|
|
Guest0229
( )
|
Posted - 05/08/2009 : 17:28:07
|
Beans you make some great points, and are coming at the issue with a cool head and a level perspective. I don't think the issue here really is moving the team, I think it definately has nothing to do with Canada, it's Balsille's strategy (Which from a business perspective is incredibly creative and gutsy, this guy isn't the 12th richest man in Canada for nothing).
If the circumstance's were different, a different buyer working through the league instead of around it I think moving this team would be a very likely possibility. Bettman and co. are only saying that Phoenix can succeed as a hockey market for the sake of argument itself. I've been scouring the internet looking for something that shows fan support in Phoenix/Glendale that would support Bettman's assertion that this is a viable market. But I can't. The biggest "Save the Coyotes" petition I can find has 262 signatures... that's brutal. NHL spokespeople cite helping Calgary, Edmonton, Buffalo, Ottawa, Pittsburgh and Washington out of past trouble, but the difference is these are cities with a long hockey history and have previously proven to be successful hockey markets. Ownership was changed in some of these places, facilities improved in others and the overall product improved and fans came back. I stress "came back". In Phoenix hockey is new, you can't improve the facilities, and short of fixing games you can't make a team win (which may not even attract fan support anyways). There is no going back to the glory years of hockey in Phoenix. The experiment has failed.
It's funny I think in a roundabout way Balsille may have saved hockey in the desert (For that matter he might have saved it in Nashville and Pittsburgh). If the NHL wins this battle they will have no choice but to keep the team in Phoenix for a very long time after all this "we protect our franchises" posturing. And with this franchise doomed to bleed money, the NHL has forced itself into a no win situation... |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Balsillie to buy the Phoenix Coyotes? 
