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aps86
Top Prospect
USA
9 Posts |
 Posted - 06/18/2009 : 21:52:24
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Seriously, if you have ever been to Vegas, you have to think this would be a good idea. You've got tons of tourists who would fly in for the weekend when their team played there from northern cities all over. The hometown has a metro of 1.8 million people. It would be a party. Players would love to play there - just ask the guys there for the awards tonight - both on the road and as the home team. Visitors come with money to spend. Vegas would build a new arena at the drop of a hat. Every hotel on the strip would have at least one loge box for high rollers. They would have fantastic intermission entertainment and celebrities singing the national anthem night in and night out. It would probably be a hockey experience you would never forget.
The only concern would be gambling. Bettman in all his holiness doesn't want gambling and the potential ills that go with it - bribing, fixing, etc. even if it builds the brand. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2009 : 04:28:46
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In a lot of respects, I agree aps86 - Las Vegas I can certainly see being somewhat successful, for all the reasons you say.
Not more successful than another team in Toronto/GTA, Hamilton or Kitchener though, I'd wager . . . perhaps even Winnipeg would beat it.
I'm still waiting for the big bidding war to buy the Coyotes, myself.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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aps86
Top Prospect
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2009 : 08:03:59
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
In a lot of respects, I agree aps86 - Las Vegas I can certainly see being somewhat successful, for all the reasons you say.
Not more successful than another team in Toronto/GTA, Hamilton or Kitchener though, I'd wager . . . perhaps even Winnipeg would beat it.
That all depends on how you define success. Financially, ticket prices and loge boxes would be more expensive in Vegas. I estimate that prices would be set along the lines of the nightly shows that range from $50-$200 for typical, not great seats and sell pretty well. They may be able to make it more since there would only be 41 dates a year in town. Probably Canadian teams would sell more apparel. More individuals would be exposed to the game in Vegas. There is an opportunity to expand the LEAGUE'S fanbase in Vegas that is pretty saturated in all Canadian markets, except maybe places like Winnipeg where people are bitter about losing a team, even if they still like hockey. On top of this, it would provide the NHL with a novel opportunity to experiment with making the parts of the arena experience that are not part of the game itself a show to remember. So I guess if success is getting more of the current fans of the league out to a game or selling more apparel are your measures of success, you could be right, but I wouldn't use those as my barometers of success.
Here's one way to look at it. How many Canadian guys do you know who have never been to a hockey game? How many American guys? Where do you think there is more opportunity for growth? It's just so logical to put a team in a tourist location that is frequented by people from all over North America planning on dropping lots of money. You reach out to more people than your standard hockey fans and bring them into the game. The only way you can successfully argue that getting new fans out to the game in Vegas will not expand hockey's general fanbase more than putting another in Canada is by arguing that hockey is not a likable game. And if you believed that, you probably would not be on this forum. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2009 : 16:17:34
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Vegas is great destination but I bet half the people in Vegas did not even care about the NHL awards being there. If Vegas was the perfect market for the NHL, it would already be there.
I go to Vegas three or four times a year and trying to get any bar to turn on a hockey game is like pulling teeth, then all the basketball fans get pissed off. If you are lucky enough to get them to turn on a game you spend the whole night explaining the game to some schmo who wonders if I live in an igloo because I am Canadian.
From first hand experience, People in Vegas are not interested in NHL hockey. Ask yourself why there is no pro sports teams in Vegas already. People are not there to go to sporting events, they are there to bet on sporting events, get drunk, see topless dancing shows and party til the wee hours. Personally I would have no interest in spending my Vegas vacation going to see a hockey game nor any other sporting event.
I like the idea and your thoughts are great, but I just think if there was going to be Pro sports in Vegas then the NFL, and MLB would definetly already be there. In fact the NBA would be there too. All long before the NHL could make it in Vegas. Surely some of the great business minds would have realized the potential if it was truly there. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/19/2009 : 16:45:50
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The thing Vegas has over just about every other city in the world is corporate support. If the casino's figured they could make anything out of comping hockey ticket it's wicked.
However, don't you think there is a reason why there is zero pro sports teams in Vegas??? I mean, zero!
Why is that?? I mean, 1.3-1.8 million people. Over 30 million tourists and $50 million spent in tourist dollars. I mean, why does a pro sports team not work in Vegas?? I'll tell ya, and I figure there are three reasons.
Firstly, regardless of what the reason is why a person goes to Vegas, 99.9% of anything people go to Vegas to do is on the Strip. Is there anywhere to build an arena on the strip???
Secondly, the profitability of the real estate in Vegas is significantly higher by building casino space than an arena for a pro sports team. The couple hundred thousand sq ft will be far more profitable with slot machines than an NHL team, even if they pulled in numbers better than the Leafs.
Thirdly, and most importantly, what kind of problems are possible by having a pro sports team(who is likely part of a league with a strict anti-sports betting policy) in a city where the most sports betting occurs on the planet.
You will see 15 teams in Canada before you see a team in Vegas.
As said you might see 7 in Canada. Maybe Winnipeg, maybe #2 in TO, and a a stretch in Quebec City. That's it. No where else is even close to having an NHL team. Not even remotely close. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2009 : 15:14:11
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You dont think B.C could support a second team? I mean Okanagan Valley is pretty compressed population and they already are hockey fans. You dont have to teach them the rules of the sport to get them to go to or watch a game. There is good money from corporate out there and the market is starting to rejuvenate. I do admit population is not as good as Hamiliton at 350000 to 400000. But thats plus tourists coming in throughout the year mostly migrating from cold climate province's and states.
I'm probably talking about the least likely, but not a far fetched possibility. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2009 : 13:54:12
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I'm not going to say anything about Vegas, cause personally the NHL already has too many teams in the USA...
Even London Ontario would be more successful than teams like Pheonix, Tampa Bay, Columbus, Florida, Nashville, and even the New York Islanders... The London Knights get more fan support every home game than all of those teams |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2009 : 19:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
The thing Vegas has over just about every other city in the world is corporate support. If the casino's figured they could make anything out of comping hockey ticket it's wicked.
However, don't you think there is a reason why there is zero pro sports teams in Vegas??? I mean, zero!
Why is that?? I mean, 1.3-1.8 million people. Over 30 million tourists and $50 million spent in tourist dollars. I mean, why does a pro sports team not work in Vegas?? I'll tell ya, and I figure there are three reasons.
Firstly, regardless of what the reason is why a person goes to Vegas, 99.9% of anything people go to Vegas to do is on the Strip. Is there anywhere to build an arena on the strip???
Secondly, the profitability of the real estate in Vegas is significantly higher by building casino space than an arena for a pro sports team. The couple hundred thousand sq ft will be far more profitable with slot machines than an NHL team, even if they pulled in numbers better than the Leafs.
Thirdly, and most importantly, what kind of problems are possible by having a pro sports team(who is likely part of a league with a strict anti-sports betting policy) in a city where the most sports betting occurs on the planet.
You will see 15 teams in Canada before you see a team in Vegas.
As said you might see 7 in Canada. Maybe Winnipeg, maybe #2 in TO, and a a stretch in Quebec City. That's it. No where else is even close to having an NHL team. Not even remotely close.
you said Vegas has zero pro sports teams at all... The Toronto Blue Jays farm team in Tripple A (Pro ball) is the Las Vegas 51s with a capacity of 9,334. But just because they have a ball team doesn't mean Vegas would be good for hockey. Nevada doesn't care about Hockey.. Gambling, Sex, music, dancing, baseball and basketball, That's about it... I could think of a lot of Canadian Cities that would hold it's own and get more fan support... We have Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver and Ottawa... Other Cities that could get good fan support Hamilton, London, St. Johns, Winnipeg, Quebec City, Halifax, Kitchener, Saskatoon, Regina, Brandon (Manitoba) those are just possibilities and I have no doubt that they all would get more fan support than any of Bettmans precious Southern States teams, Why? Southern States don't know hockey.. They rate high school and college basketball, baseball and football, golf and tennis and Nascar over NHL hockey, Here in Canada at least 90% of us live and breathe hockey.. Hockey is Canada's number 1 sport... Hockey was made in Canada... besides guys like Ovechkin, Malkin and Jagr, the best hockey players in the world are Canadian... The NHL would be better with more Canadian Teams and less American Teams... And I don't care what you say Beans, Bettman hates Canada... And it's sad but we will never see another Canadian Hockey team in the NHL again as long as Bettman is the Commish |
Edited by - hanley6 on 06/22/2009 19:49:23 |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2009 : 20:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
you said Vegas has zero pro sports teams at all... The Toronto Blue Jays farm team in Tripple A (Pro ball) is the Las Vegas 51s with a capacity of 9,334. But just because they have a ball team doesn't mean Vegas would be good for hockey. Nevada doesn't care about Hockey.. Gambling, Sex, music, dancing, baseball and basketball, That's about it... I could think of a lot of Canadian Cities that would hold it's own and get more fan support... We have Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver and Ottawa... Other Cities that could get good fan support Hamilton, London, St. Johns, Winnipeg, Quebec City, Halifax, Kitchener, Saskatoon, Regina, Brandon (Manitoba) those are just possibilities and I have no doubt that they all would get more fan support than any of Bettmans precious Southern States teams, Why? Southern States don't know hockey.. They rate high school and college basketball, baseball and football, golf and tennis and Nascar over NHL hockey, Here in Canada at least 90% of us live and breathe hockey.. Hockey is Canada's number 1 sport... Hockey was made in Canada... besides guys like Ovechkin, Malkin and Jagr, the best hockey players in the world are Canadian... The NHL would be better with more Canadian Teams and less American Teams... And I don't care what you say Beans, Bettman hates Canada... And it's sad but we will never see another Canadian Hockey team in the NHL again as long as Bettman is the Commish
Posts like this are beg-beg-begging to be ripped on. Brandon Manitoba? Are you SERIOUS??? The only reason you even know about that place is because Brayden Schenn plays for the Brandon Wheat Kings. Do you know what the population is? I do. It's a little over 51 000. Do you know what Winnipeg's population was? Over 63 000. And the Winnipeg Jets ran into financial problems that forced them to relocate. Las Vegas has almost 3 and a half times the population and no major sports teams (sorry but the very high profile, attention demanding, media deserving Triple A farm team of the Jays with a fan base of you doesn't qualify.)
A team in Las Vegas would work perfectly as long as the team was playing well. You might say that isn't worth moving a team for if the market is conditional on a good team, but let me remind you that in the business world, your product generally needs to be top notch to attract buyers. The Toronto Maple Leafs are an exception, not the rule, Hanley. Most bad products do NOT sell in the real world. It's the reason all the American auto companies are going out of business while the Japanese are running away with the industry.
Everyone benefits from a team making money. Las Vegas makes money, Brandon does not. If anything, the NHL is protecting the traditions of teams like Toronto and Montreal by not allowing teams to move there however they please. If we had 6 teams in Toronto, you know how many fans the Leafs would have? Zero if they play the way they are now. The Toronto Maple Leafs and the Montreal Canadiens are original six teams and the game wouldn't be better with some made-in-2009, flavour of the month Hamilton Coyotes team looking to sell a few tickets and make Mr. Balsilie even more rich.
As for your comment towards the Southern States... well, in Carolina they're building ice rinks and attracting hockey at grassroots level as a result of the interest generated when they made it to the final in 2002 and won it all in 2006. They ran a feature on it on CBC (a Canadian corporation, I might add.) The interest is growing and American hockey is getting better. We're starting to see the NCAA's hockey division gain some respect to the point where teams with a bad farm system are going there to build their future (now I'm not going to give away any names, but it rhymes with Foronto Faple Fleafs... you can figure that one out I hope.) I know we would all love and adore being number one at hockey forever and ever but what type of an accomplishment is it to be the best at a sport that most countries can't even play because Mother Nature decided so?
I just don't get, A) why all you guys are so gaga over having more Canadian teams when we already have teams and B) how you fail to see that the business case is there for the states just on sheer numbers.
Sorry guys, I disagree with the ''Make it Seven'' campaign, and especially when guys like Hanley decide to champion its cause with such weak arguments.
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Edited by - Alex on 06/22/2009 21:03:50 |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2009 : 22:04:49
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I dont give a crap about some backwards southern usa hick town, grassroot development of hockey in an area which the professional hockey team is giving away hockey tickets with a KFC bucket to attract fans to an empty arena. All this so the Ontario Teachers Union can make a billion while icing a crap team, charge canadians 4 times the avaible ticket price in a southern market. And the TO management are effectively a monopoly in the greastest hockey market in NA.
Alex, as i've said to others and I'll say to you this is where the market needs to be. Maybe not Basillie, and maybe not Hamilton. I do not see a problem putting a team in a market which can support a team, is asking for a team and has an owner (who is a fan) and can afford a team.
But, if you wouldn't have ripped Hanley a new one for BRANDON MANITOBA, I woulda. |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2009 : 05:13:43
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There is just no good way to make a new team in Canada. None.
The current proposition by Mr. Balsilie is going about bringing a team to Canada through relocation. There are so many problems with this. Number one, it sucks for all the fans in Phoenix and all the players who signed contracts and have families in Arizona, only to be moved in an impulse sale. Number two, it's going to cramp on the traditions of teams like Toronto and Montreal, and we're talking century old histories here. Number three, it's going to cost A LOT of money. $212.5M only goes so far guys. You need to find a way to respect or buy your way out of a leasing agreement in Glendale, come to terms with all the corporate sponsorship the team already has in Glendale, pay a huge relocation fee (in the neighbourhood of half the original bid, or $100M), give an existing arena a complete face lift, design a new brand and register the trademark (this includes logos, slogans, jerseys, etc.) and possibly hire a bunch of new head staff if those under contract don't want to make the move. There is no way that can all be accommodated under $212M, not to mention I'm missing some of the expenses. We then have two options. Either the NHL picks up the tab, as suggested by Mr. Balsilie in early negotiations, or taxpayers do. If the NHL pays, you can throw out the case for moving the team based on it being a financial burden to all the other owners in Phoenix, because Mr. Balsilie won't be doing the situation any better. If taxpayers pay, well, I would implore you to take a step back look at the bigger picture. The world is in a recession, Canada's government is already in debt, we need money to bailout car companies, stimulate the economy, fund a war overseas and balance our books. Even if that were all to be accomplished, the next item on the agenda would NOT be funding a hockey team. Way back when, taxpayers money used to be used on keeping our health care system a leader in the world, funding public education, maintaining infrastructure, etc. All more important than a hockey team, no?
The final reason why relocation would not work is that it sets a HUGE precedent that transcends the boundaries of the NHL. If every team that stumbles across hard times can just pick up and move, there would be more instability in the NHL than in a Hollywood marriage. Need I remind you that the Pittsburgh Penguins were almost moved by the same Mr. Balsilie a few years ago? In case you've been living under a rock, they just won a cup, and I'm pretty sure there were fans in the seats to watch. In business if you're not making money, you fix your product, you don't just tug on the lifeline for help.
So that's the reason why relocation isn't at ALL a viable option. I'll look at the other possible way of creating a team in Hamilton, and why it would not work, in a later post. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2009 : 12:45:11
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Again, I will say Hamiliton might not be the right fit and Basillie might not be the right guy. To my knowledge Basillie would be responsible for both the Relocation Fee and the cost of moving current management and hiring of replacements for those in management who would choose not to relocate. Players as always will be responsible for relocating there respective familys, just as they did when Quebec, Hartford, Atlanta and Winnipeg moved
The upgrading of the Arena is the responsibility of the owner of the Arena, in which the team owner has an agreement for which the team is to play. But, I believe Basillie put forth a statement which included an amount which was similar to 15-20% of the expected cost of renovation.
As for the corporate sponsorships they would have to come to terms with, any sponsor who has signed a long term deal and has given the team money would have a grievence. Remember this team is in bankruptcy to protect them from these type of creditors. They will recieve what the court feels they are due.
And lastly the lease with Glendale. The City feels as though future owners will be responsible after a court appointed bankruptcy proceeding sale. I think there is precedence for some type of compensation but the hundreds of millions the are seeking will be something which the bankruptcy judge will have to decide on prior to any type of relocation sale. I doubt the $ will be close to what they are asking for and would not detract Basillie from finalizing a deal.
To your comment with regards to this setting precedent that transends the boundaries of the NHL. This is not setting precendant, but it is the league choosing to pick and choose when it follows these rules. This is an overhyped excuse for the League to exurt control of the location of past, present or future franchises, and to monopolize an underserved market which is telling the league right now, they can support another franchise. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2009 : 13:39:29
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| Alex, you talk about the business aspect saying it isn't right to buy and move a team... It's not good business to keep a team in a failing City losing more and more money every year till you are broke... When a team goes bankrupt it's time to move on. Any one of those Canadian City would make more money and have a higher fan support than keeping a team in Phoenix where there is next to none fan support... And yes Brandon too they aren't even an NHL team but at least they have fan support... See where I'm getting at??? The NHL is losing in average attendance, Revenues and TV attendance, not because any of the Canadian teams, but because of Bettmans precious Southern States team.. Wanna watch a hockey game tonight?? hockey whats that??????? Yeah, keep a team in Phoenix where no one cares about the game, Poor Business... It's time to move another team to Canada where it belongs... |
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Rambo2305
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
546 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2009 : 09:57:14
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To talk about Pheonix fan support....
The Arizone Cardinals (NFL)...were a cinderella team this year and lost a close game to the Steelers in the SUPER BOWL...and they couldn't even sell out a game. Also, the Arizona Diamondbacks (MLB), they have one of the lowest attendance records in baseball...so if they don't even go out to watch America's games (baseball and football), what makes Bettman think they'll go see hockey???
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2009 : 10:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
Alex, you talk about the business aspect saying it isn't right to buy and move a team... It's not good business to keep a team in a failing City losing more and more money every year till you are broke... When a team goes bankrupt it's time to move on. Any one of those Canadian City would make more money and have a higher fan support than keeping a team in Phoenix where there is next to none fan support... And yes Brandon too they aren't even an NHL team but at least they have fan support... See where I'm getting at??? The NHL is losing in average attendance, Revenues and TV attendance, not because any of the Canadian teams, but because of Bettmans precious Southern States team.. Wanna watch a hockey game tonight?? hockey whats that??????? Yeah, keep a team in Phoenix where no one cares about the game, Poor Business... It's time to move another team to Canada where it belongs...
Hanley, with all due respect, all you are doing is reiterating the rhetoric of the millions of Canadians who don't have numbers, business cases, the responsibility of 30 owners, thousands of players and millions of fans to deal with and simply bought into the hype generated by Mr. Balsillie. There may well be more fans in Canada, but that does not translate into more revenue.
Anyways I just wanted to follow up on my earlier post. The second way of bringing a seventh team to Canada is through expansion. This is the Toronto Legacy group's method. It won't happen, simply because the league has explicitly stated they aren't interested in going down that path, but let me give you a few more reason why it won't work.
1) 31 might be a good number if you're the advertising consultant for Baskin Robbins, but it sucks if you're the poor sap in charge of organizing a hockey league. To give every team equal opportunity, you need an even number of teams.
2) Which is why we would need at least 2 expansion teams in order for everything to work. I don't really think there are 2 solid markets for expansion teams that have buyers that are interested at this point in time. Even assuming we bring in 32 teams, that ruins the divisions. Part of the fun in any league sport is the rivalries between teams, and the division format promotes it strongly. Stripping that system to the bone and starting from scratch does not make sense. With 32 teams, you need 4 divisions of 8, or 8 divisions of 4 (more likely.) In any case it would be a mess.
3) The other way to configure the league well in the case of expansion - and don't think I'm serious about this, I'm just trying to show you guys how many non-options exist - is to add 6 teams. That way, each division simply takes in a new team. Sounds cool right? Who wouldn't want a Northeast division of Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, Montreal, Boston and Buffalo, or a Northwest of Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver Winnipeg, Colorado, and Minnesota? Well, you may be able to make a very weak case that there are two markets the NHL could expand to, but no ways in hell are there six. That's a 20% increase in league teams.
4) Any expansion team starts off bad and poor. Introducing one, two or six financial burdens into the league means the teams higher up on the food chain need to support these financial liabilities. Not to mention it will bring the salary cap crashing down, making it impossible for any team to stay good for more than 2 or 3 years. There would be no such thing as Malkin and Crosby on the same team.
5) Speaking of which, you may not realize this but the way expansion teams create their roster is by picking guys from other teams. The other 30 teams have a chance to lock a good portion of their roster, but anyone who they don't is free for the taking. Aside from being a huge pain in the you-know-what for players and a potential disappointment to fans, we're talking about major tampering with league rosters and watering down the talent in the league.
6) And my final point is, WAKE UP! I'm not sure if any of you guys realize this, but we're watching an NHL where 'The Next One' came fresh out of the draft, won the Art Ross, Hart and Pearson in the same season, and became the youngest captain to win the cup (Sidney Crosby), where a guy is regularly cracking 50 goal seasons (Ovechkin) and winning back to back Hart / Pearson trophies, where both their teams are good enough to meet in the second round of the playoffs, where teams like Chicago can go from basement of the league to conference final in a year (Philadelphia did it last season), where teams can become contenders through one or two good drafts... Guys, Sid the Kid just won the cup. The Next One, Captain Canada, etc etc. During the lockout we were begging and dreaming for someone like him to come and do that. Ovechkin could very well be next. Shake your heads boys! Appreciate what the NHL is! It does NOT need a change! |
Edited by - Alex on 06/24/2009 10:18:39 |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2009 : 10:53:16
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Alex, no offense. Just my opinion.
#1st Has the NHL ever run with an uneven # conference wise. I'm not certain, so I wont bash the history of it. I believe the scheduling could be figured out by the smart guys in the NHL head office. This is not a Deal Breaker. Other sports leagues have run with uneven Division or Conference's
#2nd We have already posted 3 possible team locations for Expansion in Canada alone, Winnipeg, Quebec City and Southern Ontario. There are at least 2 possible location the NHL is already considering in the states as well KC and Las Vegas.
#3rd I couldn't imagine a scenerio where 6 team expansion could ever possibly happen, in the current economic climate.
#4th The responsibility of the financial loss for the expansion teams is the responsibility of the team owner, not the league. That is why I strongly disagree with the league taking control of the Coyotes, because they infused money into the team. If they had let this team die or relocate, as it should have, the revenue league wide would have been higher. The profits woud have been higher same as the salary cap, without the Coyotes and other's dragging down the profits. If the relocating team make a profit, the league earns revenue the Salary cap goes up.
#5th Yes, expansion drafts do take the roster players from current NHL teams. Players which the team does not covet become available for expansion teams to buy contracts from. I don't see the devil at work here, if anything I see this as a good thing. Plus with the KHL and European league there is definitly a surplus of players available.
#6th Do not disagree. This game is improving tremendously since the lockout. What we have suggested should not detract from that, only amplify the game.
For the record I am in favour of a retraction for the league, not expansion. I think the league has 2-4 too many teams and the product on the ice currently is watered down in some (some not all) markets. This is not to say that the failing franchises in the southern states should not come back to Canada, once again, where they belong. Outside of Ottawa in 1992, there has been no expansion/relocation in Canada, only a retraction. We can support a few franchises and I am in favour of Relocation vs. Expansion. |
Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 06/24/2009 10:59:00 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2009 : 16:41:54
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Relocation is the only way the NHL will be FORCED to listen to the demands of the paying public . . . any other way, including following so-called "NHL protocol", will be met with a hard stick to the groin and leave one in a puddle at your own blueline.
The NHL is a reflection of the business world, in this sense - it's the corporate way. Ignore the public, do what your corporate sponsors tell you, make lots of money on the side out of public view.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2009 : 22:28:15
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This story has been dead for a while, but I did think it was interesting that the Board of Governors didn't just reject the Balsillie bid, but it was unanimous.
I think that says it's more than just Gary B that doesn't want Balsillie in. Niether do the rest of the current powers. And I don't care what anyone says, these are the guys that pay Bettman's salary. He doesn't control them, at least not all of them.
Rightly or wrongly, Southern Ontario will have to wait.........
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=286141 |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 13:25:05
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| Beans is that your way of saying "I told you so". There was a lot weaseling around by both parties. Sadley this story will probably pop up again but with Balsille and another team. |
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Guest2559
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Posted - 07/30/2009 : 14:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
Beans is that your way of saying "I told you so". There was a lot weaseling around by both parties. Sadley this story will probably pop up again but with Balsille and another team.
Beans isnt right very often so he needs to gloat when he is lol. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 16:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
Beans is that your way of saying "I told you so". There was a lot weaseling around by both parties. Sadley this story will probably pop up again but with Balsille and another team.
Nope, I'm really not trying to gloat at all. I have actually said that I think Balsillie would be a great owner because he has huge stacks of cash, he loves Canada, and he loves Hockey. How can you lose with that??
However, my views of his less than desirable ways of gaining ownership is apparently shared by others. Not just a few others, all of the members of that Board. I actually expected the vote to be a little more of a split. Especially in times where some owners are losing money and times are tough. I expected some of the "old boys" to come around a little but obviously I was wrong.
Either Bettman has a lot more control than I give him credit for or the "Old Boys" are showing their teeth and basically saying Jimmy B has no home in today's NHL.
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 17:17:10
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| I think your right Beans, the Old boys club has sent a message to Balsille. The message being, play by our rules or don't play at all. I don't think that he has or ever will do it someone elses way, or by their rules. |
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Guest4090
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Posted - 07/30/2009 : 18:01:51
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ted by Beans15[/i]
This story has been dead for a while, but I did think it was interesting that the Board of Governors didn't just reject the Balsillie bid, but it was unanimous.
I think that says it's more than just Gary B that doesn't want Balsillie in. Niether do the rest of the current powers. And I don't care what anyone says, these are the guys that pay Bettman's salary. He doesn't control them, at least not all of them.
Rightly or wrongly, Southern Ontario will have to wait.........
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=286141
[/quote]you gotta be kidding this is news . gary bettman announcend the result of a secret vote that all governors voted vs basille good source for information beans. Bettman wouldnt lie would he. Also find it interesting thta a huge story like this is virtually ignored by tsn and sportsnet> I think maybe nhl is pulling some strings. (no outrage over bettmans lie that they where paying yotes payroll. Last word in 2 to 3 yrs there wont be a team in phoniex it wont work. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 10:57:40
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This story is far from dead . . . unless you believe everything that comes out of the mouth of Gary Bettman or the Board of Governors and their PR units.
So I read Greg Wyshynski's blog on yahoo sports today, it was all about the Balsillie bid getting "bolstered" potentially, as the bankruptcy judge declared Balsillie's bid the highest and best (d'uh, we already knew that!). It led me to this article in the Globe and Mail . . .
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/coyotes-auction-gets-postponed/article1239955/
. . . which led me to also read an excellent article coming from Phoenix that exposes the corrupt insider business world I had hinted at with you readers earlier in my comments . . .
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2009-07-30/news/glendale-the-coyotes-and-the-john-kaites-connection/1
I know that last article is a longer one, but it's worth a read. In fact, I was so taken with it, I read all 6 comments below it, and one person out there mentioned that,
"What you may not know is that Phoenix & other expansion franchises were chosen partly because over 40% of Gary Bettmans salary comes from sales of new merchandise & the market in Canada is already saturated."
Yep, it's true - Bettman made about 2.9 million last year from the league's marketing arm, as mentioned in this article in the Sports Business Journal:
http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/62972
It's all food for thought in this topsy-turvy, crazy world of sports business. Heck, it's almost as corrupt as American politics and big business . . . oh, wait. This story involves both of those things, doesn't it?
The story is far from dead, and Balsillie's attempt at acquiring the Phoenix franchise and moving it to Hamilton is far from over. He may not be successful, but it sure will be a long and interesting look at how corrupt the NHL has gotten under Bettman's leadership . . . or maybe it was always this corrupt.
sigh. At least the hockey is still fun to watch . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 14:13:25
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Although I have not read the articles yet (I intend to) I have to question a couple of things:
1) Is this the "conspiracy theory" that Bettman Control's all of the NHL and the Board of Governors, who's money powers the NHL, is nothing??
and/or
2) How much of this blame on Bettman can also be blamed on said Board?? Or even more so the Board than Bettman.
and/or
3) Is this maybe bitterness by fans from the GTA so hungry for another team that it hurts??
I'll read these later and give my take, as I always do!
And I have now read (mostly read) the articles and I have a couple of things to say.
1) The report is opinion, not a straight fact stories. If one can say that Bettman's or the Board PR people are not 100% believable or accurate, one can say the exact same thing about this articles. (Specifically the article from the Phoenix Free Press)
2) Bettman's salary increase was LESS than the increase in revenue and still lower than the other Commish's in North America. Also, I have not seen anything that says Bettman gets money based on non Canadian marketing. It Marketing in general. If more marketing in comes from the States, so be it. Bettman gets a raise when the NHL makes more money. That's his job. We are now burning him at the stakes for him doing the job he was hired to do???
3) As I have said on here various times, there are three sides to every story. One side, the other side, and then the truth. Bettman and the league have one side, this one (by the way brilliant research Slozo) is the other side, and the truth is some where in between.
4) I am sure there are less than ethical or proper things going on all fronts. Some from the Hamilton bid, some from the Chicago bid, some from other bid (Ice Edge or something like that) and some from the City itself. No one is going to come out of this smelling like roses. I just think that a new owner, whom ever they should be, should have to give Phoenix another shot. As proven in various other locations, a new owner has been able to turn a team around. Many people can assume that the team will fail, but until it's proven as a loser under another owner, the league(board) will not want to move the team.
I did find it very interesting that Baum still holds a lot of the cards. If the auction does come through with the Hamilton bid, it will be interested to see how quickly the other pro leagues hope in to support the NHL???
This story is so far from over, I'm a little sick to my stomach just thinking about it. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 08/04/2009 19:04:01 |
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Guest0548
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Posted - 08/04/2009 : 20:24:41
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After reading all of the articles presented I can clearly state both Glendale City Reps and the board of governers are a bunch of crooks. If another party doesn't intercede with a similar offer Basilie/Moyers could win this round and/or a lawsuit against the league and Glendale. By the way I understand it not only is the city willing to negotiate with Riensdorf, but they are not willing to negotiate with Moyers, past or present. The fact they hired a consultant to assess the Coyotes in Dec 08 who was a known associate of Jerry Riensdorf and his son Michael prior to Moyers putting the Coyotes up for sale, sounds extremly like insider information or price fixing. If Moyers hadn't put the team in bankruptcy the NHL and Glendale would have forced a sale. If they offered the concessions to Moyers that they are willing to give to the NHL and Glendale's handpicked buyer this team might not be in the financial position its in. The fact the board of governers have endorsed the deal and shot down all others shows collaboration.
One thing I dont understand is if Moyers sells to Riensdorf he somehow loses an additional 200million? How does that happen? Either way the NHL and Glendale have proven they are not unbiased and may even be acting outside of the law.
This is not saying Basilie or Moyers are innocent bystanders here but it does seem as though they are on more legal ground here. |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 20:27:35
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| Sorry last post was mine. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 06:26:05
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To summarise JoshuaCanada: the Reisendorf bid is dependent on a lot of the money coming from two different revenue streams besides his own cash - tax payer money, and corporate money (percentage of merchandise sales or something like that).
Basically, Reisendorf doesn't have all the money, and needs more. And, when the info leaked on it, of course he (and Bettman, who he was conspiring with) were fuming, because they both know that in this economy, there is no way in hell taxpayers are going to agree to give out money, and I doubt the corporate side would cooperate as well.
The basic reason Moyers (who is also seen as corrupt by hockey insiders in Phoenix, btw) would lose an additional 200 million dollars is that Reisendorf wouldn't buy Moyes debt, and Balsillie's offer would. That, and Balsillie's offer is head and shoulders above Reisendorf's in terms of price to begin with.
Beans - I am guessing that Bettman represents the board exactly as they wish, otherwise he would be gone by now . . . so yes, I do think the BOG are just as culpable for their dastardly actions. Culpable, that is, to you and I - not to the law. It's only Bettman's ass which is on the line, and I am guessing he is going to get burned here . . . there are some serious legal implications and it is clear to me that Balsillie is not the kind of guy to let an opportunity like this go by without suing the pants off the NHL and Bettman for illegal collusion.
This is gonna be like a nasty, bar street brawl, and there will be biting, crotch-kicking and hair-pulling. Maybe even eye-gouging.
Fire up the popcorn!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 08:28:54
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Well, Balsllie is back in. The judge finally came to his senses. That being the case, I don't see how he can lose. He may end uo still having to play in Phoenix for the forseeable future, but he will have his team, and therefore one leg up on moving it.
Either that or Reinsdorf et al need to boost their bid. Perhaps the NHL will "lend" Reinsdorf the money since he is clearly their preferred choice. Just a thought. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:04:44
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As I said earlier, this story will never be over. If it is not the Balsille and the Coyotes then it will be Balsille going after another team.
With the latest development, the judge is simply doing his lawful duty and permitting all bidders. In a bankruptcy case the NHL cannot deny bidders. I have stated in this forum many times, the NHL really does not have say about who becomes the qualified bidder. They were foolish to approve/disapprove owners before the bankruptcy dealings were over. It again shows the crooked games that get played. Balsille is a brilliant business man and the NHL board of governers know it. Balsille should just play by the rules with his bid, make a deal with the city of Glendale, and when the Coyotes fail to turn profits for 3 years, then pull them out. It will be his right under the NHL "Bettmans" constitution.
What will be interesting is US law states that the best bidder to satisfy the creditors in a bankruptcy case must be chosen. If Balsilles bid stays at 212 mil then he has won the auctioning off of the coyotes. There will be nothing the NHL can do except tie it all up in court for several years but that just plays right into Balsilles hands and he will undoubtedly be able to move his franchise.
There are so many scenerios that can still play out but the judge kind of gave Balsille a huge break by allowing him to bid in the auction.
I will not argue that the NHL has rules that Balsille should follow, but I maintain as I have from the start of this forum that the Law supercedes any rule the NHL has. Balsille is still somehow using that to his favor because as the old boys club showed with their vote, Balsille is not a preferred owner in their little group. Why? Because when he does become an owner (and he will)he is likely to expose their crooked dealings because they treated him like crap. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:20:48
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Porkchop, agree 100%.
I as well, have stated several times that the NHL board of govenors actually have very little control over this. The fact that they passed that motion against him is pretty much meaningless. What slays me is that they passed that motion due to Balsillie's "character and integrity." Priceless! How many of Bettmans last few hand selected owners are in or are going to jail? Quite a few!
You may be right about the boards underhanded dealings, because something here just doesn't add up. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 12:36:54
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I still go by to my Tim Horton's analogy. Timmy's corporate calls the shots. They pick who buys a franchise, where it goes, what prices they sell at, etc. They have that control. What this court proceeding is basically saying is that the Corporate entity of a company has zero control of their interests once bankruptcy gets invovled. That is illegal. That is taking legitimate control from a business.
So, what happens if Balsillie's bid goes through? The NHL's Board has rejected him. That is their legal right. How can another law go over top of that???
Will Balsillie own a pro sports team without a league to play in?? The Law can not force the NHL to accept him as an owner and it appears that the league can not stop him from buying the team.
This is getting more and more interesting as time goes on. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 16:18:46
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Well Beans, it is true that Balsille could become owner of the Coyotes without league approval. However, my take on what will happen is that IF (big if) Balsille wins the bid, the judge will likely rule that the NHL and Balsille will have to come to a court approved agreement. Likely a little from each side. I think that IF Balsille gets the bid, he will have to keep the team in Glendale until it proves to be financially unsustainable, lets say 3 years, after which he will be able to move his franchise. This is very similar to what NHL rules are now. Now-- he would have to seek board approval to move his franchise to Hamilton like he wants because once he is in the NHL he has to play by their rules and no judge can change that. Considering that he "back doored" himself into the NHL, he likely won't get approval and will have to look at hockey hotbeds like KC or Las Vegas, or Tuktoyuktuk, or maybe even Tijuana Mexico to try to lure the lurking spanish hockey fans.
Honestly their is no pretty outcome of this whole debacle. It would have been easier for the NHL to accept Pheonix was a losing situation and fix it before it made into the US courts. They would have avoided this whole situation and saved reputation, and look like a brilliant organization that is top notch. Instead in the US markets ,where the NHL ranks just behind Underwater Basket Weaving in the sports world, they have made themselves look like bumbling idiots.
In a way I consider Balsille brilliant. He has already been approved once by the owners (I think it was during his bid for Pittsburg) and unless he has changed his organization significantly since then a judge will question and likely throw out the NHLs dissapproval this time citing the previous approval. He really has played totally fair within his rights under the US Bankruptcy laws. The NHL on the other hand has shown again and again the sneeky, run around, do anything to prevent Balsille from getting a team. I wonder how much money they will give Reinsdorf to up his bid, because that is the only way they can top Balsilles bid now. How many tricks does Bettman have up his sleeve? I can just see that little weasel face scrunching up and its nasally voice saying "I'll get you Balsille, I'll get you".
Like I said, this will go on forever in the courts. The real losers - the yotes fans and fans of the NHL, canadian fans in particular because they are the soul of the game and deserve another franchise no matter what city it is. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 16:42:55
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Beans, I also forgot to mention about your Tim Hortons analogy. Athough a good one it is not without flaws. There are two ways to get a Tim Hortons franchise. Pay the franchising fee and Tim Hortons supplies all equipment (essentially you rent)and Tim Hortons Corp takes a percentage of the profits (more then yours), essentially you are a landlord for Tim Hortons and cannot go bankrupt because you own nothing. Or the more common and more peronally profitable way, pay the franchising fee and buy the equipment from Tim Hortons. Tim Hortons is then the supplier to your business that you own. Should you go bankrupt - the equipment, building, and whatever else you have equitable stock in gets sold or auctioned. The Tim Hortons name nor branded products are not sold, they do not belong to you. The location can even be sold if you are the owner, Tim Hortons does not own the land. Should the person that buys your stuff and land want to open a Tim Hortons, he has to pay the franchising fee to Tim Hortons again. The purchaser can even get a location change should Tim Hortons agree it meets their requirements.
Balsille is trying to do exactly that, buy the equipment (the coyotes, who are owned by Moyes not the NHL)and pay the franchise rights to the NHL. He tried to have a bid include relocation which most knew would not work out. I don't think many judges would have touched that. But if he changes his bid to have agreements that allow relocation should he not make a certain amount of profit, I think it could be agreed upon by both parties like through an arbitrator or some other court supervised agreement.
And yes the US law (or canadian)can overrule any rule a business such as the NHL has should that see the rule as not being fairly applied or prejudicial or by a whole whack of circumstances. That is how we the people are protected from crooked businessmen. These types are often referred to as weasels! |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 08/06/2009 16:44:13 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 17:13:08
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Mr Chop, sir, I appreciate someone finally understanding my Timmy's analogy, however you're supporting my arguement. As you said, the person who buy the "hard assests" from the bankrupt former owner is not a Timmy's owner until corporate approves. And that guy who buys the Timmy's couldn't get a Judge in North America to agree to move it across the street from a current Timmy's. It's Timmy's Corporate's call, not the government. Timmy's is doing nothing wrong by dictating where their stores are.
Why is the NHL any different than Timmy's??
If this happened in the "real world" the hard assest would be sold, the judge would manage the creditors payment, and that would be that. If the buyer wanted to remain as a franchise, that is no longer the concern of the judge.
Ultimately, that's my biggest questions. What happens if Balsillie wins the auction?? Does the Judge have the authority to force the NHL to comply with Balsillie's demands or can the NHL basically tell Balsillie to go fly a kite and have fun with his pro hockey team without a league to play in???
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 07:54:40
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I realize I supported your arguement as far as relocation. Balsilles bid with the relocation clause was a hope and a prayer. There was a small chance if he was the only bidder that a judge might have accepted that. The flaw that I wanted to point out is that a new owner can be approved by the courts in some situations. It usually never gets this far. But someone really wanted a Tim Hortons I am positive they could push their case as far as the wanted.
A comparison is Balsille is buying the "hard assests" from the bankrupt owner, Moyes. The NHL does not own the yotes. The judge in the case has already stated he will not touch the relocation issue. So the relocation is no longer in question. Balsilles bid will have to remove that part in order to be accepted as the winning bid.
The more likely scenerio should Balsille be the winning bidder they will likely have to come to a court supported agreement. Like I said before that because the board of governers had approved him once as an owner, a court would likely question and throw out the disapproval this time citing the previous approval. Balsille will likely have to use the justice system to get their. So if he does win his auction, he will have a team playing in the NHL likely in 2010 as I assume the legal battle will play out through the upcoming season.
Although in the eyes of some it does not seem fair that someone can use the justice system to get their way. But essentially this is playing out very fair to both the NHL and Balsille (should he get his bid). That is exactly how the justice system should work, fair for all. It would not be fair should Reinsdorfs bid go through when it does not satisfy the creditors and another bid is available that does.
This doesn't have much to do with hockey anymore but I have been trying to make this clear to the forum members interested. There are some things that just do not matter once the courts are involved. I see things like this quite a bit in my real life job and the end results are usually not what seems right but it usually is what is fair to all involved.
I am only trying to shed light on how this could play out. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. I personally want Balsille to get in. I think that Bettman is a pathetic weasel and should open his eyes to huge fan base north of border. Sell it to the franchises in that area and show how profitable it could be to NHL. That is what a good commissioner would do. Not dig in and try to make a success out of proven failure. Bettman has done well financially with the league but in my opinion has made a mockery of our sport which makes it unmarketable to places where hockey will never be in the same category as the NBA, NFL and MLB. Heck high school badminton gets better ratings in Pheonix then the NHL. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 08/07/2009 07:58:41 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 11:31:32
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Here's my question. The judge realizes there is a potential issue between the NHL and Balsillie as an owner and that recently, the Board had denied the ownership. Regardless of he being approved before or not, there is a potential issue.
So, let's say that Balsillie's bid wins. He is now the owner of the 'hard assest' of the Phoenix Coyotes. However, the NHL does not accept him as an owner and therefore there is 29 NHL franchises.
This would significantly reduce the value of the franchise that Balsillie purchased possibly down to $0. So, basically the judge's ruling provided for the creditors to get their money and the new owner to have something with $0 value. Balsillie then has right to go back after the Judge for making a decision to devalue his purchase.
So, you are correct in that the Judge has to protect the interest of the creditors. However, he also has a reposibility to protect the investment of the purchaser. So the $212 million for the Coyotes that Balsillie is offering may not be as attractive as the $150 Reinsdorf is offering.
And although I emphatically agree that Hockey in Canada is the right thing to do, I am not convinced that a team in Hamilton would be better for the NHL as I do believe this will put Buffalo on the brink of failure and reduce the market of Toronto. So it's not an improvement as much as it's a lateral shift. Way way better for Joe Fan in the GTA, but not really better for the NHL overall.
Winnipeg however............. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 13:00:33
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I can only give my guesses of the outcome if Balsille gets his way. First and I think the only logical answer is a sort of court ordered arbitration that has the two sides meet in the middle about the issues and get moving forward.
Second he wins the bid and the court tells the NHL to get over. That could happen but unlikely.
The fact that the board approved Balsille once before is a huge factor in this. It shows they were willing to accept him and his organization under the same circumstances before. The only way that changes is if Balsilles group has radically changed and it hasn't.
Make no bones about, Balsilles bid is the best bid under ever scenerio and he will be an owner in the NHL if his bid is accepted albeit I think with more court battles.
I too emphatically agree, Hockey in Canada is the NHL's best move and I too don't care if it is Hamilton.
I am anticipating the outcome of Sept 10 auction. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 13:31:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Porkchop73
I can only give my guesses of the outcome if Balsille gets his way. First and I think the only logical answer is a sort of court ordered arbitration that has the two sides meet in the middle about the issues and get moving forward.
Second he wins the bid and the court tells the NHL to get over. That could happen but unlikely.
The fact that the board approved Balsille once before is a huge factor in this. It shows they were willing to accept him and his organization under the same circumstances before. The only way that changes is if Balsilles group has radically changed and it hasn't.
Make no bones about, Balsilles bid is the best bid under ever scenerio and he will be an owner in the NHL if his bid is accepted albeit I think with more court battles.
I too emphatically agree, Hockey in Canada is the NHL's best move and I too don't care if it is Hamilton.
I am anticipating the outcome of Sept 10 auction.
I can't wait for the clusterfack that will arise when Ballsilly's bid for the team is accepted and we have a situation where the nest ownership is in place but the NHL governors will not accept him. This has trouble written all over it. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2009 : 10:42:34
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Beans, I don't think too many people here don't understand what you are getting at. The problem is, it isn't in that world anymore. It is in the bankruptcy world, where all the rules change.
The judges #1 priority is to protect the creditors, period. Balsillie's bid is the one that best takes care of that, and that fact cannot be ignored. Will the NHL contract by one team should Basillie win? I highly doubt it. It would look bad for their image, which is already getting hit, and totally go against Bettmans established agenda to grow the game.
I have said elsewhere, maybe here too, exactly what Porkchop is saying. But it will not apply just to Balsille, it will apply to anybody who ends up owning this franchise. There WILL be an out clause. The days of this franchise being in Phoenix are numbered, no matter who ends up with it. |
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Balsillie to buy the Phoenix Coyotes? 
