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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
 Posted - 07/24/2009 : 09:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Rambo2305
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Originally posted by Pasty7
quote:
Originally posted by Rambo2305
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Originally posted by slozo
7752 - Can we even use the term "excited" in your world, without being labelled as some mouth-frothing idiot who plans parade routes? Seriously, we as older Leaf fans have been through a revolving door of mediocrity of late, through the oh-so-close years of 93 and 94 (good competetive teams), and through the sludge and muck of the Ballard years. It's not like it's been a long summer, or a long year, or even a decade . . . it's been a long HALF CENTURY at this point.
So, I am sure you can, in your discerning and compassionate view, allow space for a little optimism, even if it is over-exuberant at times.
Good luck with your bleu blanc et rouge towel . . . oh, wait, I forgot: Canadiens fans would never over-value their team, no no.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Slozo, you agree with the point of every summer, Montreal fans, media, management and players seem to walk and talk with the belief that they'll get the cup and that all other teams are there for fun?
Seriously, the Leafs and Habs have the same chance to make the playoffs. Both teams have holes, at least the Leafs and other teams that have weaknesses admit it, they don't rate up their 4th liner's as top liner's anywhere else. The Habs team is just as strong, and at the same time weak as the Leafs squad. Laugh all you want, but when you really look through the lineups, you'll see that there are outstanding negatives on the Habs roster. Biggest one is probably in net for the Habs. Over the past two years, Price has folded under pressure big time. Now, with the failure over the last two years, he'll have even more pressure on his back. This time, it won't take 1/2 the season for his knees to buckle up and the pressure comes crashing down. I will bet anyone that Price fails to win 30 games this year, solidifying him as the most overrated goalie in the NHL...
Defensively, weak. If you think Gill and Spacek are your saviors, have fun with that....
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
Woah woah woah now heres were i got to stand up for my boy! first off Hall Gill is a stud as long as your only counting on him to be your number 5 d man and play the PK and Max Lapierre is a stud pure and simple besides guys like J staal he is a top third line center in the NHL he showed his stuff last year when only two player on the whole habs team can say they played well for an entire season lapierre and markov,, now this isn't stupid habs fan ranting about how our teams the best i am and pretty sure i shown that i can admitt my teams faults and we do have a lot but lapierre can check he is gritty as s*** watch him play like really pay attention to him you'll see what i mean he is very very valuable!
Pasty
Don't get me wrong, I think Gill's a great player, just not a top 3 guy. Just don't look for him to be the missing piece to a cup lol Lapierre, like I said, give him credit, but don't slate him on a line with Latendresse and Moen make them the best checking line around...not you pasty. However, you'd have to admit Lapierre doesn't compare to the likes of Phalsson or Franzen as 3rd line centres.
"Most people spend time and energy going around problems, rather than trying to solve them" - Henry Ford
Here you go twisting English again. I think you need some grade 3 remedial English, because you are clearly challenged in grasping the meaning of statements. What I said was 'one of the best.' You mention 2 centers who you would consider better 3rd line centers than Lapierre. That makes him #3. CLEARLY ONE OF THE BEST!! Top 3 out of 30, by your own admission.
Whether I agree with that statement is besides the point. Any GM in the league would agree that they make up one hell of a checking line. Lapierre has done nothing but improve for the 2 and a half seasons that he has been in the league. He is only going to continue getting stronger. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2009 : 09:44:26
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I never intended to take the thread off topic, and I appreciate that the true "hockey fans" who are also "Leafs Fans" understand thier team and have a reasonable expectation. My latest post was more for the other kind of "Leaf Fan" who sees the world through a tinted Blue shade who some how think the Leafs are better than the Habs. The Habs were a top 10 team in the league last year nearly to the All Star Break. And most agree they improved on their team from last year. I mean, just a objective look(with a little bit of betting with your heart) would tell you a play off spot for the Leafs would be a huge step forward.
Back to the case in point. Gainey vs. Burke. Ultimately, here is my thing with Burke. He's a peaks and valleys kind of guy. No one can take away the fact that he has built some pretty talented teams. Vancouver improved under him as did Anaheim. Some could argue that many of the piece were already in Anaheim, but I'll leave that alone. Obviously, the pick ups in TO to this point under Burke will also prove positive. Those are the Peaks. No one talks about the fall that Vancouver took and Anaheim is taking after Burke left. Vancouver needed to get the best goalie in the NHL and Anaheim traded away 1 of the top 5-7 defensemen in the league to stay competative. Did anyone notice that Burke set up the Ducks to have 17 UFA's in one off season?? To me, that's mismanagement. He seems to be very smart in when to leave an organization. It's seems he can't sustain that talented successful team long term so he jumps town and quickly rebuilds a new team.
I don't see Burke as a top tier, elite GM. He's no Kenny Holland, Lou Lamoriello, or Pierre Lacroix. These guys had/have teams that were elite for a decade or more. Also interesting that Colorado has never been a contender since Lacroix left. Another name in that list is Bob Gainey. The guy held down the post in Dallas for a decade, won a Cup, and had a annual contender in the Big D.
That being said, Gainey has not had the same success in Montreal. Maybe the pressure. Maybe the ownership. Maybe, who knows. However, I don't think anyone can argue that he very quickly changed the face of that team in Montreal in no time at all. Completely changed directions without taking a backward step, which is not often the case. There are alot of question marks with that team because of they way they finished last season. However, Price returns to form, their top line stays healthy, and their roles player do what they need to do, they compete with anyone in the league every night. |
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2009 : 10:35:02
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mr roberts said:
im just having some fun with a hab fan who sounds like a homeless person who used to be rich, telling stories to anyone who will listen about how great he used to be...
This is true description of Leaf fans (who "may" remember the last time they won a cup) decribing the leaf's past.
I think Alex116 has posted the best comments on this subject.
Well done. |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 07/24/2009 : 13:38:22
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So Gainey got Cammalleri, Gomez, Gionta, Moen, Spacek, Gill, Mara and Sanford.
And out of Montréal goes, Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, Higgins, Lang, Kostopoulos, Schneider, MacDonough, Dandenault, Bouillon, Brisebois and Denis
Burke got Komisarek, Beauchemin, Exelby, Gustavsson and Stuart
And out of Toronto goes, Kubina, Joseph, Gerber and a few prospects.
Toronto took a step forward and are still rebuilding, They are not a playoff team yet but took a big step in the right direction.
Montreal needed some changes and that they did, we will have to wait and see if it's for better. When you look at the list of players Montreal got rid of it's scary.
The difference between Montreal and Toronto is that Montreal (since they finish 1st in the east two seasons ago) they were a cup contender and they should have made the moves to go get the cup but instead they go down the standings significantly and trade away half their roster.
And Toronto are still rebuilding and trying to fix the mess John Ferguson Jr did.
So did Montreal succeed into building a cup contender??? No, far from it.
Did Toronto succeeded into rebuilding the team??? Yes, but many pieces are still missing.
I believe Montreal as a better team right now but for this offseason I chose Burke over Gainey because Burke went and got the needs for T.O.
A big mistake Gainey did is let the players go instead of trading a couple at the trade deadline. Now they all signed with their rivals. Komisarek in T.O. Kovalev in Ottawa and the year before Ryder in Boston. And now Begin also goes in Boston.
Other mistakes Gainey did was to trade Huet for a second round draft pick. Put too much pressure on the young Carey Price for their dream season. Also to trade away Begin for nothing right before the playoffs was a big mistake as Begin is a perfect 4rth line playoffs grinder. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2009 : 14:37:50
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Ok, couple of things.
Firstly, Huet?? Gainey was not signing him anyway, he might as well have gotten something for him. Which he did. That move was smart.
Secondly, what's Gainey going to get at the trade deadline for those players??? Not much anyway. There are never that many teams who are are looking for rental players.
Thirdly, Montreal was where in the standings at the trade deadline?? 6th to 8th?? Still in the playoff race. In fact, they made the friggin playoffs?? Why would Gainey do anything drastic at that point??
Seriously folks, let's remember that Montreal was only 3 games out of 4th place in the East. That's peanuts over a season. They had a really poor end of the season and playoffs, there is no doubt. But ya know what?? So did Calgary. So Calgary signs Bouwmeester and they are Cup Contenders, but Montreal signs multiple players will skill and they are fighting for a playoff spot???
People, seriously. Gainey has improved on the team from last year (at least on Paper) has a proven Coach with a strong system. Take nothing away from Burke and what he has done in TO, but it's about success. Plain and simple. Montreal will be more successful this season than TO and based on the moves, at least short term, Gainey wins.
And even with the moves Burke has made, nothing is super duper amazing. He has basically signed borderline talent. No one that is elite is on that roster because of Burke and TO still doesn't have any kind of dependable scoring. With the talent that was available this season and the money TO had, I would have expected some kind of offensive talent.
I like Burke's moves, but Gainey did more(and obviously paid dearly for it) and Montreal will be better than just a playoff team this year. They will compete and have the potential on paper to succeed. TO, honestly, will be very entertaining but lucky to make the playoffs. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2009 : 06:51:56
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I'd rather have 4 solid lines that contribute in scoring and solid D (and that's exactly what Toronto has)than 1 or 2 superstar Point scorers that takes up a lot of cap space
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2009 : 09:10:33
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quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
I'd rather have 4 solid lines that contribute in scoring and solid D (and that's exactly what Toronto has)than 1 or 2 superstar Point scorers that takes up a lot of cap space
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP
hanley....well, let's just say, it's good you're a Leafs fan then? Hopefully they won't go the way Pittsburgh did and spend a bunch of money on "1 or 2 superstar Point scorers" and win a cup huh?
Think about what you just said really. Are you implying that teams like the Pens get ALL their scoring from their 2 superstars? I'd say not. This just seems like a comment from a guy who's trying to be content with his team. Can't you be like some of the others (Leaf fans) on here and take the attitude that:
1. they've improved their D
2. they've signed a potential #1 goalie
3. they still need help up front but
4. Burke has done a good job and Rome wasn't built in a day
I think the non Leaf fans / Leaf bashers can accept these thoughts/opinions but your comment really makes it look like you're happy with Jason Blake as your top forward? Sorry, but that ain't gonna get it done but if you're ok with fighting for a playoff spot every year, so be it...... |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 07/25/2009 : 10:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ok, couple of things.
Firstly, Huet?? Gainey was not signing him anyway, he might as well have gotten something for him. Which he did. That move was smart.
Secondly, what's Gainey going to get at the trade deadline for those players??? Not much anyway. There are never that many teams who are are looking for rental players.
Thirdly, Montreal was where in the standings at the trade deadline?? 6th to 8th?? Still in the playoff race. In fact, they made the friggin playoffs?? Why would Gainey do anything drastic at that point??
Seriously folks, let's remember that Montreal was only 3 games out of 4th place in the East. That's peanuts over a season. They had a really poor end of the season and playoffs, there is no doubt. But ya know what?? So did Calgary. So Calgary signs Bouwmeester and they are Cup Contenders, but Montreal signs multiple players will skill and they are fighting for a playoff spot???
People, seriously. Gainey has improved on the team from last year (at least on Paper) has a proven Coach with a strong system. Take nothing away from Burke and what he has done in TO, but it's about success. Plain and simple. Montreal will be more successful this season than TO and based on the moves, at least short term, Gainey wins.
And even with the moves Burke has made, nothing is super duper amazing. He has basically signed borderline talent. No one that is elite is on that roster because of Burke and TO still doesn't have any kind of dependable scoring. With the talent that was available this season and the money TO had, I would have expected some kind of offensive talent.
I like Burke's moves, but Gainey did more(and obviously paid dearly for it) and Montreal will be better than just a playoff team this year. They will compete and have the potential on paper to succeed. TO, honestly, will be very entertaining but lucky to make the playoffs.
Huet was having a good season and they were entering the playoffs first seeded in the east. They trade him away put all the pressure on a young 20 year old rookie. And really all they got is a second round draft pick. They should have kept him to end that season at least. And as for the value of Kovalev, Koivu or Tanguay at the trade deadline would have been good. And in your point you are contradicting yourself by saying. They did good to trade Huet at the trade deadline two years ago because they were not signing him. And they did good to keep them last season because at least they made the playoffs.
What I'm saying is the year they traded Huet they were first they should have went for the cup. They were looking too much at a repeat of Ken Dryden and Patrick Roy with Carey Price.
Say what you want but Huet was having a good season that's why he got a big contract of over 5 millions a year.
And as for last trade deadline they could have traded one or two players instead of losing ALL of them!!!!!!
And remember I'm still saying that Montreal has a better team on paper then Toronto. I predict Toronto will finish from 10 to 12 in the east and Montreal from 6 to 8. But the reason I think Montreal will improve is because they have a solid core of young talented players who will play better this year. Like Plekanec, the Kostitsyn's, Latendresse, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Price and Halak. And plus they have one of the best defenseman in the league in Markov. |
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Guest9257
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Posted - 07/25/2009 : 16:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9262
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Ok, couple of things.
Firstly, Huet?? Gainey was not signing him anyway, he might as well have gotten something for him. Which he did. That move was smart.
Secondly, what's Gainey going to get at the trade deadline for those players??? Not much anyway. There are never that many teams who are are looking for rental players.
Thirdly, Montreal was where in the standings at the trade deadline?? 6th to 8th?? Still in the playoff race. In fact, they made the friggin playoffs?? Why would Gainey do anything drastic at that point??
Seriously folks, let's remember that Montreal was only 3 games out of 4th place in the East. That's peanuts over a season. They had a really poor end of the season and playoffs, there is no doubt. But ya know what?? So did Calgary. So Calgary signs Bouwmeester and they are Cup Contenders, but Montreal signs multiple players will skill and they are fighting for a playoff spot???
People, seriously. Gainey has improved on the team from last year (at least on Paper) has a proven Coach with a strong system. Take nothing away from Burke and what he has done in TO, but it's about success. Plain and simple. Montreal will be more successful this season than TO and based on the moves, at least short term, Gainey wins.
And even with the moves Burke has made, nothing is super duper amazing. He has basically signed borderline talent. No one that is elite is on that roster because of Burke and TO still doesn't have any kind of dependable scoring. With the talent that was available this season and the money TO had, I would have expected some kind of offensive talent.
I like Burke's moves, but Gainey did more(and obviously paid dearly for it) and Montreal will be better than just a playoff team this year. They will compete and have the potential on paper to succeed. TO, honestly, will be very entertaining but lucky to make the playoffs.
Huet was having a good season and they were entering the playoffs first seeded in the east. They trade him away put all the pressure on a young 20 year old rookie. And really all they got is a second round draft pick. They should have kept him to end that season at least. And as for the value of Kovalev, Koivu or Tanguay at the trade deadline would have been good. And in your point you are contradicting yourself by saying. They did good to trade Huet at the trade deadline two years ago because they were not signing him. And they did good to keep them last season because at least they made the playoffs.
What I'm saying is the year they traded Huet they were first they should have went for the cup. They were looking too much at a repeat of Ken Dryden and Patrick Roy with Carey Price.
Say what you want but Huet was having a good season that's why he got a big contract of over 5 millions a year.
And as for last trade deadline they could have traded one or two players instead of losing ALL of them!!!!!!
And remember I'm still saying that Montreal has a better team on paper then Toronto. I predict Toronto will finish from 10 to 12 in the east and Montreal from 6 to 8. But the reason I think Montreal will improve is because they have a solid core of young talented players who will play better this year. Like Plekanec, the Kostitsyn's, Latendresse, Lapierre, O'Byrne, Price and Halak. And plus they have one of the best defenseman in the league in Markov.
Wrong. Carey Price went 12-1-1 down the stretch to move them into first, when Huet was traded they were not in first.
And as for the comment about TO having 4 solid forward lines.. is that a joke. |
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hanley6
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
674 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2009 : 16:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by hanley6
I'd rather have 4 solid lines that contribute in scoring and solid D (and that's exactly what Toronto has)than 1 or 2 superstar Point scorers that takes up a lot of cap space
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP
hanley....well, let's just say, it's good you're a Leafs fan then? Hopefully they won't go the way Pittsburgh did and spend a bunch of money on "1 or 2 superstar Point scorers" and win a cup huh?
Think about what you just said really. Are you implying that teams like the Pens get ALL their scoring from their 2 superstars? I'd say not. This just seems like a comment from a guy who's trying to be content with his team. Can't you be like some of the others (Leaf fans) on here and take the attitude that:
1. they've improved their D
2. they've signed a potential #1 goalie
3. they still need help up front but
4. Burke has done a good job and Rome wasn't built in a day
I think the non Leaf fans / Leaf bashers can accept these thoughts/opinions but your comment really makes it look like you're happy with Jason Blake as your top forward? Sorry, but that ain't gonna get it done but if you're ok with fighting for a playoff spot every year, so be it......
actually Alex116 I was referring to the Ottawa Senators last year having a team of nothing but 3 superstars, and the rest of the team was horrible... At least the Leafs could play well as a team the only thing they didn't have was a goaltender until after the trade deadline...
Teams like Anaheim, San Jose, Pittsburgh and Detroit were expected to have a shot at winning the Cup they are Stacked... What I was clearly getting at is I'd rather have a a good rounded team of players that contribute in scoring fairly equally no matter what line you have out there like the Leafs have, and now combined with a very solid Defensive core that Burke brought in the off season, making the Leafs a far more tougher team to compete against... Will be a tough team to beat... Which in my mind is far more important than signing a couple high priced Superstars... Let the kids develop their skills, you don't need a bunch of superstars to have a great team... I believe Burke had bought the Leafs a Playoff spot... Thats just me. We'll all just have to wait and see
...And the LEAFS Win the CUP |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2009 : 10:44:53
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9262,
you are actually contradicting yourself. You are moaning about the fact that they didn't trade their UFA's this year, but, at the same time, you are moaning about how they got something for Huet, a UFA.
People seem to forget that he was somewhat inconsistent, and was prone to weak goals. Price was playing amazing at that time. With Halak in the wings, Huet was expendable. You mention the fact that Huet got a big contract, and you are right. Right now, however, the Blackhawks are greatly regretting that decision. |
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2009 : 10:45:13
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Good commentary by all, particularly by Guest9262.
However, when you (9262) say:
The difference between Montreal and Toronto is that Montreal (since they finish 1st in the east two seasons ago) they were a cup contender and they should have made the moves to go get the cup but instead they go down the standings significantly and trade away half their roster.
And Toronto are still rebuilding and trying to fix the mess John Ferguson Jr did.
So did Montreal succeed into building a cup contender??? No, far from it.
Did Toronto succeeded into rebuilding the team??? Yes, but many pieces are still missing.
Why are you convinced that Montreal mades moves that are yet to be proven, while Toronto made moves (so far) that are great for re-building? Do Toronto's moves come with some kind of guarantee?
To me, neither moves are proven yet...
Also, Toronto's been rebuilding for how long??? It's time they stop chalking everything up to re-building?
Does a team rebuild by signing Cujo, May, etc...?
Finally, I agree that Montreal was "almost" a contender two seasons ago, and everyone (in Montreal at least) thought that the "next year" would be the ONE. Especially because of the minor additions made last season that were believed to be the missing ingredients for the final recipe to the cup.
Two things for that:
1 - two seasons ago, the Habs were lucky to get as far as they did, and they were a little over-rated
2 - last season, they "should" have done better, but everyone (especially the disgruntled leafs fans commenting on this forum's subject) keeps forgetting the injuries Habs had to deal with.
Having said that, and in summary - the habs were over-rated 2 seasons ago, then the next year they ran into injuries among other issues.
Therefore, Gainey (being the better GM than Burke) understood this, had to deal with numerous UFA's, and needing to save his ass totally revamped the team with what he hopes will move the team to contention - WITHOUT the 40 YEARS of REBUILDING that TORONTO is undergoing!!!
On the other hand, Burke is continuing in Ferguson's path.... He'll rebuild or I should say he is "still rebuilding" and will continue to do so until everyone gets fed up again, and then start all over again. At that point, when he's out on his ass, he'll use the excuse that he did not have enough time to finish what he started.
OR... if Toronto does eventually get better after he's out on his ass, he'll take the credit for the amazing moves he made.
He can't loose!!!
However, Gainey is in it to WIN, and WIN NOW!!!!
If he is out on his ass, at least he did what it took to WIN, and he goes out like a MAN, not a mouse.
so YES - GAINEY out-smarts BURKE ANYTIME, ANYDAY. |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 07/27/2009 : 12:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
9262,
you are actually contradicting yourself. You are moaning about the fact that they didn't trade their UFA's this year, but, at the same time, you are moaning about how they got something for Huet, a UFA.
People seem to forget that he was somewhat inconsistent, and was prone to weak goals. Price was playing amazing at that time. With Halak in the wings, Huet was expendable. You mention the fact that Huet got a big contract, and you are right. Right now, however, the Blackhawks are greatly regretting that decision.
I knew somebody would point that out.
But what I'm trying to explain is two years ago they were contenders and to GIVE away players at that point is not smart. Especially when you rely completly on a 20 years old goalie (Price did great in the regular season but playoffs is a different story)
Last year everything was going wrong and they were not contenders. So at that point it might have been a smart move to trade ONE OR TWO players instead of losing all of them.
And I agree with you the contract Huet got in Chicago is way too much and Chicago are kicking themselves in the ass for it. |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 07/27/2009 : 12:24:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Seventy7Fifty2
Good commentary by all, particularly by Guest9262.
However, when you (9262) say:
The difference between Montreal and Toronto is that Montreal (since they finish 1st in the east two seasons ago) they were a cup contender and they should have made the moves to go get the cup but instead they go down the standings significantly and trade away half their roster.
And Toronto are still rebuilding and trying to fix the mess John Ferguson Jr did.
So did Montreal succeed into building a cup contender??? No, far from it.
Did Toronto succeeded into rebuilding the team??? Yes, but many pieces are still missing.
Why are you convinced that Montreal mades moves that are yet to be proven, while Toronto made moves (so far) that are great for re-building? Do Toronto's moves come with some kind of guarantee?
To me, neither moves are proven yet...
Also, Toronto's been rebuilding for how long??? It's time they stop chalking everything up to re-building?
Does a team rebuild by signing Cujo, May, etc...?
Finally, I agree that Montreal was "almost" a contender two seasons ago, and everyone (in Montreal at least) thought that the "next year" would be the ONE. Especially because of the minor additions made last season that were believed to be the missing ingredients for the final recipe to the cup.
Two things for that:
1 - two seasons ago, the Habs were lucky to get as far as they did, and they were a little over-rated
2 - last season, they "should" have done better, but everyone (especially the disgruntled leafs fans commenting on this forum's subject) keeps forgetting the injuries Habs had to deal with.
Having said that, and in summary - the habs were over-rated 2 seasons ago, then the next year they ran into injuries among other issues.
Therefore, Gainey (being the better GM than Burke) understood this, had to deal with numerous UFA's, and needing to save his ass totally revamped the team with what he hopes will move the team to contention - WITHOUT the 40 YEARS of REBUILDING that TORONTO is undergoing!!!
On the other hand, Burke is continuing in Ferguson's path.... He'll rebuild or I should say he is "still rebuilding" and will continue to do so until everyone gets fed up again, and then start all over again. At that point, when he's out on his ass, he'll use the excuse that he did not have enough time to finish what he started.
OR... if Toronto does eventually get better after he's out on his ass, he'll take the credit for the amazing moves he made.
He can't loose!!!
However, Gainey is in it to WIN, and WIN NOW!!!!
If he is out on his ass, at least he did what it took to WIN, and he goes out like a MAN, not a mouse.
so YES - GAINEY out-smarts BURKE ANYTIME, ANYDAY.
I'm convinced Toronto moves are proven to be good ones because they didn't lose much by doing those moves. I'm not saying these moves will bring them the cup or not even make the playoffs this year. I'm saying they are definitly bringing the team in the right direction.
As for Montreal... we will have to wait and see because they lost so many players in that process, and they got so many new players. We have to wait to see if the chemistry is there.
You were also questionning the rebuilding which started when they fired John Ferguson Jr. That was a year and a half back. Then Cliff Fletcher was in as Interim GM and Burke as been hired for not even a year yet. So this is just the second season of rebuilding. Give it time.
The rebuilding was suppose to start at the lockout, but Ferguson was a Moron and he was trying to get to the playoffs by trading away all the draft picks and prospects. Ferguson did nothing to rebuild. |
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Guest4182
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Posted - 07/27/2009 : 16:39:30
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quote:
You were also questionning the rebuilding which started when they fired John Ferguson Jr. That was a year and a half back. Then Cliff Fletcher was in as Interim GM and Burke as been hired for not even a year yet. So this is just the second season of rebuilding. Give it time.
Aahh! The Leafs fans rallying cry for the last 40+ years. Give it time. |
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2009 : 18:35:32
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This just in from Adam Proteau of The Hockey News: "The Bob Gainey era of Canadiens history isn't bound to be confused with Sam Pollock's anytime soon. A top four defense of Andrei Markov, Roman Hamrlik, Jaroslav Spacek and Hal Gill should come with a warning label advising pregnant women and those with a heart condition to avert their eyes." I have always enjoyed Mr. Proteau's writing, but this seems a bit over the top. Les Habitants will do just fine this coming season. Playoffs are certain. A lot of give and take in what Bob has done recently, but do not confuse his strategies with Sather's. There is obviously a plan. Start with the new coach. Figure the rest out.
The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2009. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2009 : 11:21:28
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| Plus the fact that omitted from the top four is Josh Georges. I actually see Gill on the 3rd paring. Plus I don't see Mara there. I would also put him above Gill. Something like Markov/Mara, Spacek/Georges, Gill/Hamrlik, with either Weber or Henry as the 7th. |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 07/28/2009 : 12:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Odin
Plus the fact that omitted from the top four is Josh Georges. I actually see Gill on the 3rd paring. Plus I don't see Mara there. I would also put him above Gill. Something like Markov/Mara, Spacek/Georges, Gill/Hamrlik, with either Weber or Henry as the 7th.
I agree that Mara and Gorges should be above Gill. But he probably went with the salary they're earning as Gill earns 2.25 millions, Mara 1.675 million and Gorges at 1 million.
Mara was a good pick up, Gill is all right as a 5, 6 or 7th defenseman. IMO 2.25 is too much for a third pairing defenseman. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2009 : 17:27:52
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Man, Gill gets a bum rap.
You can't teach 6'7". 250 lbs. In fact, there are only maybe a half dozen players in the league with that kind of size.
And, he's a plus player in over 800 games. That includes playing on teams in times when they were less than stellar.
$2.25 million is a fair contract for that kind of player. There are surprisingly few of them in the NHL today. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2009 : 04:33:06
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Gill gets a bum rap because he is slow, and doesn't really use his size enough. There is a reason Pittsburgh got rid of him . . . they won despite having him on the blueline, and he was almost never on the ice in important situations.
He's not a bad player, but he sure isn't anything special, either. And he should be starting that downward trend in terms of performance pretty soon . . . so really, I don't look at it as Montreal improving, I look at it as Montreal losing a young big guy that could skate and hit (Komisarek) and getting another big guy who is old and experienced and slow (Gill).
I would hope that no one here takes Gill over Komisarek . . . right?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2009 : 07:54:55
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I would hope that no one here takes Gill over Komisarek . . . right?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Slozo....not even the hardcore Habs fans would take Gill over Komisarek, no way. However, i still feel the leafs paid a hefty price for him. That's a lot of money for a guy who doesn't put up points and is more a hitter than anything else. I'm not all about points for dmen but i like guys like Schenn, Regehr, Willie Mitchell, etc. Guys who can play defensively and still hit a guy when needed. Now, i'm not saying these guys hit the same as Komisarek, but they do still play a physical game. On the other hand, someone was gonna pay him that kinda money and Burke had the means to do it. Just the way the NHL is nowadays. |
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Guest2332
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Posted - 07/29/2009 : 08:36:55
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| Slozo when you say Gill is never on the ice on clutch situation. Is the final minute of the stanley cup final game 7 not an important situation for you? I agree with you to take Komisarek over him but for the salary they both got I'll go for Gill. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2009 : 10:29:52
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I was pretty impressed with Gill as a penguin, but i still think there is something to be said when Bruins fans were glad to see him go, as were most leaf fans.
Gill was able to keep the play to the outside for the most part, and chip the puck out of the zone to pitts skilled forwards. If he can do the same thing in Montreal he'll be worth the dough.
Just keep in mind that he IS going to get burned more than a few times, and if Montreals D starts to get banged up and he plays more minutes, his weaknesses will start to show a little more.
I dont really think that the Gill signing is going to make or break montreals season. I think the play of Hamrlik and Spacek should more of a focal point when determining the ultimate success of the upcoming season.
ALSO, would someone please tell me when the leafs started to rebuild? Cause it sure as hell wasnt 40 years ago. The leafs have NEVER EVER started a rebuild of their team like the one we are seeing now. The leafs have always signed over the hill FA's and adjusted the roster through trade. Not since the leafs had Darryl Sittler and Lanny McDonald was the core of the team acquired via the draft.
The last leaf draft pick to have a major impact on the history of club was Wendal Clark, in 1985.
All through the 1990's and 2000's the leafs never once even hinted at a rebuild. So dont throw out this "been rebuilding for 40 years" crap. It just doesnt hold any weight. Just because they havent won a cup in 42 years doesnt mean a) theyve been rebuilding for 40 years or b) been crap for 40 years either.
Cant wait for Oct 1st... Leafs vs Habs ^_^
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2009 : 20:08:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2332
Slozo when you say Gill is never on the ice on clutch situation. Is the final minute of the stanley cup final game 7 not an important situation for you? I agree with you to take Komisarek over him but for the salary they both got I'll go for Gill.
Ya, I gotta agree with this. However, I also agree with Slozo. I would take Komisarek over Gill 6 ways to Sunday. But, for $2.25 million a season, I'd love Gill as my #4-5 defensemen. That is great value for the NHL dollar. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 04:35:04
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I actually don't think Gilll is great value at that price . . . you'll see. Don't get me wrong - he played really well in the finals, kudos to him, and he was very effective as one of the top shutdown pair . . . but without Fleury standing on his head in game 7, it could have been a much different story.
And by getting Komisarek, the Leafs very importantly prevented Montreal and others from their conference from getting him . . . so it's sort of a double whammy for Montreal, as they lose a solid young guy (who didn't consider Montreal in negotiations) and their rival the Leafs get him.
My mouth waters at the prospect of Toronto/montreal games now . . . to say that the level of competition and hate between the two has been elevated would be an understatement. Heck, it's good for the game of hockey, so we should enjoy it!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest2332
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Posted - 07/30/2009 : 06:03:28
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I actually don't think Gilll is great value at that price . . . you'll see. Don't get me wrong - he played really well in the finals, kudos to him, and he was very effective as one of the top shutdown pair . . . but without Fleury standing on his head in game 7, it could have been a much different story.
And by getting Komisarek, the Leafs very importantly prevented Montreal and others from their conference from getting him . . . so it's sort of a double whammy for Montreal, as they lose a solid young guy (who didn't consider Montreal in negotiations) and their rival the Leafs get him.
My mouth waters at the prospect of Toronto/montreal games now . . . to say that the level of competition and hate between the two has been elevated would be an understatement. Heck, it's good for the game of hockey, so we should enjoy it!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Yes can't wait for the first game of the season. The rivalry will be higher this year. Wish both team can get to playoff and meet each other. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 07:12:09
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Can you imagine Toronto vs Montreal in the conference finals one day? now that would be the most fun i would have watching hockey probably ever. The final would be a bit of a letdown id imagine.
Toronto vs Montreal, Epic 7 game series! Than the winner plays Dallas.... or something like that...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Alex
PickupHockey All-Star
Canada
2816 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 07:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
Can you imagine Toronto vs Montreal in the conference finals one day? now that would be the most fun i would have watching hockey probably ever. The final would be a bit of a letdown id imagine.
Toronto vs Montreal, Epic 7 game series! Than the winner plays Dallas.... or something like that...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Almost happened in 2002. The Canadiens were ahead in the series against Caroline that would have sent them to play against the Buds for a shot at the Stanley Cup. Instead the Canes came back and went on to the final, only to lose to the Detroit Red Wings. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 08:00:34
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I actually don't think Gilll is great value at that price . . . you'll see. Don't get me wrong - he played really well in the finals, kudos to him, and he was very effective as one of the top shutdown pair . . . but without Fleury standing on his head in game 7, it could have been a much different story.
Slozo....i don't understand this part of your comment. I mean, you compliment him, then you basically steal away the credit you've given him, and throw it at Fleury? We've seen people saying on here that he doesn't play in crucial situations. Then, someone gives an example of him being on the ice in the final minute of the Stanley Cup final and you even say he "was very effective as one of the top shutdown pair" so to me that'd say he does play in these situations?
I really think it comes down to this: If you could have Komisarek or Gill for say 3 million a year, who'd you take? Komisarek obviously. However, look at the salaries of these two guys and take your pick. Maybe Gill is slightly overpaid, although IMO he's not. Komi on the other hand i'd say is. To be making the kinda money he's been given, you gotta be able to put up more than just bodychecks. Maybe a few more points or at least be a dominant shut down guy who plays great D? I continue to compare him to guys like Mitchell and Regehr and he's making more than both of those two.
Who knows, maybe in TO he gets a slightly more offensive role and puts up some more points? It'll be interesting to see, but i still think they overpaid for him. |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 08:58:36
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of course they overpaid, he was a big name free agent. they all get overpadi, some more than others.
5 mil for gionta? overpaid. 7.8 for gomez? WAY overpaid. every team has 1 or two guys who are overpaid. Its the nature of the beast on July 1st.
Gomez had 58 points last year... Matt Stajan had 55... just thought id point that out 
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 09:43:47
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Fair enough, Alex116 - I will explain about my Gill comments:
I complimented him on his play in the finals - he played above his head, I thought; and he (and Scuderi I think?) matched up well against the Wings top line. However, with the score 2-1 Pens, and in the last minute, the Wings easily should have tied it, because he missed a defensive assignment, and Fleury just flat-out robbed . . . I can't remember now, Datsyuk? Hossa? One of their snipers, anyways.
So, overall, I did give him a compliment of sorts - that he played exceptionally well OVERALL in the finals, but that this evaluation was totally saved by Fleury's great form. If Fleury doesn't make that save, he could have been the GOAT, and I am not talking greatest of all time here . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 07/30/2009 : 09:51:27
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If you think that Komisarek doesn't deserve this contract. All right yes he only hits and block shots and he doesn't put up points. But he does it better then most of the other guys in the league. In the past two seasons he was in the top five in block shots and in hits. Also he's entering is prime as he's 27 years old.
Look at this comparison...
Mike Komisarek 27, 4.5 millions
Roman Hamrlik 35, 5.5 millions
And last year for the All Star Game it's you beloved Montreal fans who voted for Komisarek to be on the starting lineup. If Komisarek is overpaid at 4.5 and Hamrlik is not at 5.5, why didn't you vote for Hamrlik????????
Yes Hamrlik puts up more points (33 last year) but he is not a leader in that category. Komisarek hits and blocks more shots then Hamrlik but HE IS a leader in those categories. Even Pavel Kubina last year at 5 millions put up more points (40) then Hamrlik.
But really most of the players are overpaid. Like Jeff Finger 29 3.5 millions is overpaid. And I could go on and on with every team in the NHL. So like Matt Roberts said, of course he's overpaid, so does a lot of other players on every team. |
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Guest9262
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Posted - 07/30/2009 : 09:57:03
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Fair enough, Alex116 - I will explain about my Gill comments:
I complimented him on his play in the finals - he played above his head, I thought; and he (and Scuderi I think?) matched up well against the Wings top line. However, with the score 2-1 Pens, and in the last minute, the Wings easily should have tied it, because he missed a defensive assignment, and Fleury just flat-out robbed . . . I can't remember now, Datsyuk? Hossa? One of their snipers, anyways.
So, overall, I did give him a compliment of sorts - that he played exceptionally well OVERALL in the finals, but that this evaluation was totally saved by Fleury's great form. If Fleury doesn't make that save, he could have been the GOAT, and I am not talking greatest of all time here . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I believe it was Lidstrom, if you're talking about that save in the last second. But yeah great save none the less.
You're right Gill had a good playoff run. That's what people remember from him, and Komisarek, it wasn't his best season and sure not the best way to end the season. So people remember that from him. But at 27 years old he will bounce back. And last year in Montreal I think only Markov played great. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 10:19:24
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Correction - yes, it was Lidstrom (funny, I wrote that first, then erased it, thinking it was Hossa) that got robbed last second. And, Gill was paired with Sydor, not Scuderi (again, I forgot that he was initially paired with Scuderi, but was terrible with him). So yeah, overall, against an apparently badly limping/injured Datsyuk and very quiet Zetterberg for some reason, Gill and Sydor were pretty effective, with many mistakes covered up by Fleury's exceptional play in the games Pittsburgh won.
And I said Gill had a good FINALS, not playoff run . . . he was also paired against Ovechkin's line against Washington, and they put up a record number of points. There was plenty of animosity among Pens fans for Gill's slowness and missed assignments . . . and in the games Detroit won in the finals, there was plenty of trash talk against him.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Axey
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
877 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 10:32:02
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| Your insane if you think Gill was the go to guy to blame when the Pens lost a game in the playoffs. Most ridiculous thing I have heard in a while. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 12:21:26
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Let's talk relative to the contract and the player as that I what I am talking about with Gill. He's getting $2.25 million/season. That puts him in a class with the likes of Adrian Aucoin, Jan Hedja, Mark Eaton, Aaron Ward, and Brent Sopal as defensemen making between $2 and $2.5 million a season over the age of 30.
I take Gill over any of those guys. Aucoin is the closest.
Like I said, he is a career plus player and with the exception of his time with PITT, most of his career has been on weaker teams. And as always, there are very very few NHL caliber players (even the lower end of NHL caliber) who are 6'7" and 250 lbs. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 07/30/2009 12:22:08 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2009 : 12:42:20
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| Slozo and others.... First off, i'm not a Montreal fan but do admit i'd root for them over the Leafs. I'm not trying to get a big argument going here and as i stated in an earlier post, i liked Komisarek in Montreal. I just don't think he's worth the money he got from Burke (and that's what this whole thread is about, Burke vs Gainey). Now, as guest 9262 has pointed out, Komi's yet to reach his prime and may prove to be even better than he's already shown. I don't get to see a ton of Habs games on the west coast so i really didn't see him play much. However, i've read on other forums, even during last season, that a lot of Habs fans weren't happy with his defensive play, aside from the shot blocking. Apparently missed assignments defensively were a problem? Regardless, all i was saying, and i know MOST UFA's get overpaid, is that i think Gill is worth the salary Gainey got him at and i think Komisarek's overpaid. Simple enough, my opinion only. I totally agree the upside on Komisarek is still there whereas Gill has none and could in fact find a decline in his play. |
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2009 : 07:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
Slozo and others.... First off, i'm not a Montreal fan but do admit i'd root for them over the Leafs. I'm not trying to get a big argument going here and as i stated in an earlier post, i liked Komisarek in Montreal. I just don't think he's worth the money he got from Burke (and that's what this whole thread is about, Burke vs Gainey). Now, as guest 9262 has pointed out, Komi's yet to reach his prime and may prove to be even better than he's already shown. I don't get to see a ton of Habs games on the west coast so i really didn't see him play much. However, i've read on other forums, even during last season, that a lot of Habs fans weren't happy with his defensive play, aside from the shot blocking. Apparently missed assignments defensively were a problem? Regardless, all i was saying, and i know MOST UFA's get overpaid, is that i think Gill is worth the salary Gainey got him at and i think Komisarek's overpaid. Simple enough, my opinion only. I totally agree the upside on Komisarek is still there whereas Gill has none and could in fact find a decline in his play.
So... then we have another vote for Gainey outsmarting Burke... once again!!
Leaf fans: stop trying to analyze the player's details down to their shifts to see who's worth more... this is about Gainey's moves and Burkes's moves... Gainey WINS so far.
How can you compare Komi with Gill?
One is young and wants to prove he is the real thing - the other is old and brings some muscle and experience to any team that needs him.
If you understand what Gainey's done and the "D" - you'll see that Gill fits in. Gainey saw that last year his "D" was giving up over 35 shots per game... he went and got some players that "could" help bring that down, AND at the same time give Price a break.
I'm NOT saying the "D" is now perfect - but at Least Gainey is trying to improve things on the "D" to help his goalie.
For the small forwards that Gainey went to get... SO WHAT???
As long as the Habs "D" is big enough to stop the opponent's forwards, who cares if the Habs have small PRODUCTIVE forwards!
Someone said the Habs small forwards cannot stand up to the likes of Lucic and Thornton.... there's NO NEED FOR THAT!!!! It's the Habs "D" that need to stand up to them, and Gainey's taken care of that.
What has Burke done to get some goal scorers?.... oh yeah... he went to Sweeden to get an unproven NHL goalie!
Gainey WINS again!!
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2009 : 07:34:10
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7752 - you could convince me that red is blue and id thank you for it.
i give up, gainey wins!!!!
yea right... drop the puck and we shall see.
i cant beleive how concerned we are about how Hal Gill is going to do. Yeesh...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 08/02/2009 : 08:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
7752 - you could convince me that red is blue and id thank you for it.
i give up, gainey wins!!!!
yea right... drop the puck and we shall see.
i cant beleive how concerned we are about how Hal Gill is going to do. Yeesh...
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
MaTT i dont say Gainy wins. Bob did a great job this year the best anyone could have done in that situation, the situation being five complete years of mistakes if i owned the habs bob would not have had a chance to do any of this he would have been fired around the time he let a guy like Ryder go for nothing if you`re gonna let your moronic coach bench a 30 goal scorer in the playoffs when you`re struggling to score, that would have cost em all their jobs, Burke on the other didn`t come in a stray from the plan to build a young tough north american team. There were no top six forwards that were worth the price for burke and he didn`t try and force it, he is sitting back and adding the pieaces which is what he had to do. BUT the habs are still the better team on paper this year and anyone who thinks they will finish below the leafs is bias plain and simple, i still think burke wins if you want to trade gm`s im in, but this year leafs will be 9th or so and the habs will be between 8th and 6th and really i don`t think that the leafs will make the playoffs this year but if you run down the list of teams in the east the habs are in the top 8 still we`ll see if we stay there
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Gainey vs Burke 
