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 Posted - 08/04/2009 : 05:02:44
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Well said, Pasty7.
A good GM doesn't get top line talent just to get top line talent . . . he waits to get the top line talent that he wants. That's why the Leafs were never in the market for Kovalev, Cammalleri, Tanguay and others. A good GM is willing to overpay a bit for EXACTLY the kinds of players they want, especially when in a bidding war with your divisional rival.
Gainey just filled in his departing UFA roster with whatever was available . . . and I feel that the Habs will pay dearly for it in the end. Just listen to what Gainey was saying at the beginning of last year, and then have a listen to what he said after his free agent spending spree . . . he changes his focus to suit whatever players he got. Not a great planner.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2308 Posts |
Posted - 08/04/2009 : 21:04:40
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| Thank you for steering this finally away from Gill vs Komi. BTW Gill is a bigger, cheaper cup winning dman. Komi is a slumping overpaid 6th dman IMO. Burke has no proven #1 goalie, Montreal has 2. Burke has no 35 goal a year players Montreal has 3. Both teams have IMO similar if not equal defense. I believe Gainey win's on paper. Lets see if Burke can give life to his monster. |
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Guest4161
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Posted - 08/05/2009 : 05:27:40
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| montreal only has one 35 goals a year player in camalleri. also montreal doesn't have atrue #1 goalie yet, they both have to show the can play consistently enough. |
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 06:36:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4161
montreal only has one 35 goals a year player in camalleri. also montreal doesn't have atrue #1 goalie yet, they both have to show the can play consistently enough.
Your comments are a classic case of interpreting statistics at an angle to suit your point.
Burke has accumulated at pile of goaltenders that are either proven to be non-winners, or never played in the NHL versus Gainey's two goalies with some high pressure NHL experience.
How many 35+ goals scorers has Burke signed versus Gainey?
Gainey wins in both cases.
Only thing I hear see from Burke supporters is that he "should" have a good team and has made positive moves regarding depth.
That's good for personal opinions, but nothing's proven yet.
Also, I'm hearing from Burke supporters that Gainey's moves are terrible becuase of issues like there is no more team chemistry, young goalies, panic aquisitions, do or die moves, etc... Those are personal opinons too, yet none of the Burke suppoerters are saying wait and see as they say for Burke... you've decided they are bad moves for Gainey versus wait and see moves for Burke.
Talk about biased opinions and brain-washed commentary by Cup thirsty Leaf fans!
This whole forum is about the moves made.
Gainey made moves to deliver more wins next season (I did not say deliver a CUP), Burke did nothing that will improve Leafs win column next season.
Gainey wins again.
Why the heck did Burke leave the West? He screwed up, won NOTHING, and then ran away.
Gainey at least screwed up, is trying to make up for it, and will take defeat (if it happens) like a man and get himself fired if all fails.
Once again, Gainey wins. |
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Posted - 08/05/2009 : 07:10:44
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7752: Sorry, I must have missed that memo - what goalie did Gainey sign last month again? Because I remember Gainey losing an all-star goalie (Huet) for a . . . 2nd round pick, while acquiring Price who has definitely not been better since - oh, and that was last year. Nothing to do with the moves we are talking about in the last two months.
How has Gainey enhanced his position at all? Look at the team last year, and what the team looks like this year (totally different team, so you have to project quite a bit how they will fit together). Is it even a little bit better?
I don't think so.
Speaking of "biased, cup-thirsty fans" 7752, have you even read a Habs forum discussion of late?!? Because you might not be able to read so well wearing those rose-coloured glasses, but a lot of Habs fans are not happy at all with the loss of Komisarek and Koivu, and are not happy with all the free agents acquired. Lots of talk about Cammalleri being too small and unproven, Gionta too small and doesn't score as much anymore, Gomez and Gill in decline, etc etc. And the fact that Gainey's repeated line of "we need a big centreman!" has produced three tiny forwards with little grit so far. All that, coupled with the fact that Burke signed Beauchemin (lots of Habs crying loudly about missing out on a very good French Canadian defenceman) and stole Komisarek, trumping Gainey twice in negotiations with players they were both persuing. And why did Burke have the money to be able to trump him? Better GM position in terms of UFAs, money under cap - it's called business resource management, and Gainey I'm afraid sucks at it. He does an ok scramble though  , so at least Montreal shouldn't slide too far downward because of his bonehead moves last year.
The Leafs, on the other hand, are ALREADY a lot better, no one dares dispute that, from what I have read. So, Burke wins!
And, and just one more thing, 7752:
Any more talk in bean-town about major moves? 'Cause I hear they absolutely have to move Kessel now to stay under the cap, and the Leafs would love a top 6 forward! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 07:12:08
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7752 - im not buying what your selling.
Burke won nothing out west? Im pretty sure he's wearing his Cup ring right now.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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DarkHabs
Top Prospect
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 07:42:54
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Offence:
Loss:
Kovalev, Koivu, Tanguay
Additions:
Cammalleri (basically a wash with Kovy – assuming both have productions like they did in the past) - even
Gomez (a wash with Koivu numbers wise, as Koivu scores more goals but is a more talented playmaker, which is needed with two snipers on his wings) – advantage Gomez
Gionta (basically a wash – Both coming off down seasons – Gionta may or may not regain some luster with a pairing alongside of Gomez again; Tanguay may rebound from injury plague season or not) - even
Summary
All in all, the offence will remain similar to last (assuming second line production is still down, if second line can step up, this should improve). The addition of Moen (6’2, 215lbs) add some much needed size that was missing up front for the Habs and he is a tired-less checker, so he should fit right in. Worst case scenario, offence is a wash with last year. Best case, 2nd line production returns with Plecky and the twins bouncing back (although, I wouldn’t keep my hopes up).
I call this one Even.
Defence:
Loss: Komisarek, Schneider, Brisebois, Buillon
Additions:
Spacek (Fills the void needed of a second Puck moving defensemen, capable of PP minutes – Fills offensive void left by Schneider and is better defensively)
Gill & Mara – (combined with Mara – Helps fill void left by Komi’s departure to Leaf land. Add much needed size and grit to depleted Defense core. Both are responsible in their own end (combined for a + 13 last year).
Weber (promotion from Hamilton): showed he can play PP and has the booming shot missing from Habs PP since Souray and Streit’s departure.
Summary:
While loosing Komi is a big lost, the additions of Gill & Mara should offset this issue. They are both big bodies, who play a stay at home defense style (which is needed with a struggling young goalie, whose confidence is shaken up). They also bring much needed size to a defense core that was depleted and kept being pushed around by opposing teams. Spacek adds another puck moving defensemen combined with one of the NHL’s best in Markov. The maturation of Weber, who brings a booming shot on the point will help the PP. Overall, this defensive core should be quite an improvement over last year’s. Nobody is calling Gill or Mara saviors, they just fill needs that MTL had on their own end. They now have 3 legitimate offensive D-Men (Markov, Spacek and Weber), each paired with 3 defensively responsible D-Men (Hammerlick, Mara and Gill) which should have a calming effect on a young struggling goalie, who too many times last year was let down by his defense. He would usually start the game well, then a defensive blunder would occur and his confidence was shot for the game. This should not be the case this year and I would expect him to have a much improved year, especially if Sanford is brought in as a veteran presence behind the kid.
Overall: I see the Habs playing for 4-6 positions
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 08:22:19
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Dark Habs - at least a decent analysis from a Habs fan! Thank you, I was beginning to wonder about Montreal fans . . .
COMMENTS: Overall, pretty good and fair, here is where I disagree though . . .
Cammaleri - does not replace Kovalev. You may look at the points and think that, but Cammalleri is a sniping winger who needs a strong centreman to work with; Kovalev is a dynamic winger who creates a lot of offence on his own. I say that this is a step down, but really, this is the hardest to call since we have no clue if Cammy will find any chemistry with his linemates or not - he has yet to play a game with any of them. -1
Gomez - I think this is a wash. Koivu was grittier, scored more, but is in greater decline perhaps than Gomez, and probably will play less. Koivu was the team leader for a long, long time - replacing leaders doesn't always work, and Gomez will be judged harshly against a record of outstanding leadership. -1
forgotten:
Robert Lang - this was one of the reasons Gainey kept on about needing a big centreman. Clearly, they can't afford him now. The addition of Moen adds Lang's size and at least gives the Habs some grit, but he certainly won't score like Lang did when he was healthy. -1
I think they took a bit of a dip at forward, and I can swallow your assertion that they stayed even at defence, even if I don't quite agree. That being said, maybe they also cleared out some of the players that were causing headaches in the dressing room, which was a huge problem last year.
I really can't see the Habs improving very much at all at best. At worst, they miss out on the playoffs and finish below you-know-who.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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DarkHabs
Top Prospect
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 08:26:21
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Leafs summary:
With the additions of Beauchemin and Komi on D, the wings have definitely improved their defense core. Added much need size, grit and toughness. They will miss Kubina’s puck moving ability however, Beauchemin does some puck moving ability and more importantly, Kaberle (a Top 10 D-Man) is still there and will benefit with the arrival of some bigger bodies for additional protections.
Leafs will feels the lost of Antropov (Their top goal scorer) but have a few young guns that may be ready to step up. Offense should be declined compared to last year but their Goal allocation should be substantially improved (assuming Toskala get’s the nod; if it is Guvstaffson, a wait and see approach will be required).
Overall, Leafs should be similar to last year (fighting for a playoff spot * 6-10 position) but their long term future looks much improved, if they continue in the same direction.
1 Note of mention to Slozo – Burke tried to obtain Cammalleri, he just lost out to the Habs – Rumor has it, the contract offered was similar, Same $ / year over 4 years instead)
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DarkHabs
Top Prospect
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 08:35:48
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Slozo -
Fair enough regarding Kovy vs Cammi except for this. Kovy can create his own goals however, consistency was always an issue. Based on Cammi's numners in past 2 seasons, with 2 diffret teams, his numbers match up to Kovy (even better on some cases) but he needs a Centre to feed him - A playmaking centre, and that would be Gomez -Again, these are all guestimates, as no one knows how any of these players will respond with each other (same applies to LEafs, or Kovy in Sens land, etc...) can only base it on past numbers right? I only see them improving if they play up to their history (IE - Offenc about the same, defense improved; I see Habs playing a lot of 2-1, 3-2 games this year) and as a Habs fan, hopefully, winning more of these than they loose, but no guarantees.
As for Lang, his skills will be missed but unfortunately, he did not play enough for his productions at season's end to be affected by the numbers (by this I mean - Yes, they would be a much better team with him in there, however, they are about the same as last year, as he did not play for most of it). So a complete season of Moen, would provide the size missing from Lang ans about 2/3 the production from his injury plague season. (hence a wash) |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 10:08:11
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkHabs
Slozo -
Fair enough regarding Kovy vs Cammi except for this. Kovy can create his own goals however, consistency was always an issue. Based on Cammi's numners in past 2 seasons, with 2 diffret teams, his numbers match up to Kovy (even better on some cases) but he needs a Centre to feed him - A playmaking centre, and that would be Gomez -Again, these are all guestimates, as no one knows how any of these players will respond with each other (same applies to LEafs, or Kovy in Sens land, etc...) can only base it on past numbers right? I only see them improving if they play up to their history (IE - Offenc about the same, defense improved; I see Habs playing a lot of 2-1, 3-2 games this year) and as a Habs fan, hopefully, winning more of these than they loose, but no guarantees.
As for Lang, his skills will be missed but unfortunately, he did not play enough for his productions at season's end to be affected by the numbers (by this I mean - Yes, they would be a much better team with him in there, however, they are about the same as last year, as he did not play for most of it). So a complete season of Moen, would provide the size missing from Lang ans about 2/3 the production from his injury plague season. (hence a wash)
And Slozo, you forgot about Gionta replacing Tanguay, who we didn't see much of due to injury. Gionta will be more durable. (+1). Plus as Darkhab said, Kovalev is great when he wants to be, which seems like about half the time. Cammy will be the much more consistent of the two, which is the preference of most coaches (+1). Koivu more grit than Gomez? I kind of figured they were a wash in that department. And, as I keep saying, I think Gomez is a better fit under Martin. |
Edited by - Odin on 08/05/2009 10:09:48 |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 10:41:56
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DarkHabs: I actually see the Habs as looser defensively . . . but we'll see.
But you still have to add up the goals going out, and in . . . all numbers are from last season, as we both agree any could go up or down, we don't know how they will play together:
OUT
Kovalev 26
Koivu 16 (65 games)
Tanguay 16 (50 games)
Lang 18 (50 games)
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76 goals
IN
Cammalleri 39
Gomez 16
Gionta 20
Moen 7
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82 goals
So, a difference of 6 goals, but the old bunch had three guys with a significant loss of games due to injury. Easily a wash, just looking at goals. And Lang played more than half the season, and many insiders looked at his injury time and the Habs slide at the end of the season as not being coincidental.
And at defence: Bouillon, Schneider, Brisebois, Komisarek = 17 goals
and to replace them you got Gill and Mara = 7 goals
That is not going to be totally replaced by your youngsters, methinks.
Odin - didn't forget about Gionta replacing Tanguay at all - you really need to improve your reading comprehension. I clearly stated that I was only going to talk about the points I disagreed on . . . I thought DarkHabs was spot on with that analysis as being a wash.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest2332
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Posted - 08/05/2009 : 10:54:39
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| Slozo you forgot about Spacek with 8 goals. And you should compare Moen with Kostopoulos or Begin and not with Lang. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 11:02:50
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Sue me, I'm not a Habs fan. The players I forgot:
OUT
Kostopoulos 8
Begin 6
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14 goals
IN
Spacek 8
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8 goals
My last post was not a player to player comparison, as any idiot should be able to see. I was simply adding up goals, to illustrate that in terms of production, I think the old team and new team will be a wash. My forgotten players merely make the numbers more even, although as I pointed out there were significant injuries to key players last year.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 11:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
DarkHabs: I actually see the Habs as looser defensively . . . but we'll see.
But you still have to add up the goals going out, and in . . . all numbers are from last season, as we both agree any could go up or down, we don't know how they will play together:
OUT
Kovalev 26
Koivu 16 (65 games)
Tanguay 16 (50 games)
Lang 18 (50 games)
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76 goals
IN
Cammalleri 39
Gomez 16
Gionta 20
Moen 7
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82 goals
So, a difference of 6 goals, but the old bunch had three guys with a significant loss of games due to injury. Easily a wash, just looking at goals. And Lang played more than half the season, and many insiders looked at his injury time and the Habs slide at the end of the season as not being coincidental.
And at defence: Bouillon, Schneider, Brisebois, Komisarek = 17 goals
and to replace them you got Gill and Mara = 7 goals
That is not going to be totally replaced by your youngsters, methinks.
Odin - didn't forget about Gionta replacing Tanguay at all - you really need to improve your reading comprehension. I clearly stated that I was only going to talk about the points I disagreed on . . . I thought DarkHabs was spot on with that analysis as being a wash.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Reading comprehension needs to improve, sounds a little like the pot and kettle. Again, you're completely missing the point about the 'D.' Its not about goals. Its about defense. Its about cutting the shot count down to under 35 against Price. As far as you giving credit for games missed due to injury, as much as I love him, that is pretty much par for the course with Koivu. And actually, we ALSO got Spacek to replace the d-men going out, as well as WEBER. So, if you don't see that Spacek, Gill, Mara and Weber are a VAST improvement over Komi, Breezeby, Bouillon and Scneider, then I'm sorry, but I really have to question your hockey knowledge.
One point I will concede to you is your point on Lang. Yes he was missed, but he IS 39. While he has been fairly durable during his career, maybe that will no longer be the case. Besides, if he does come back, who knows what kind of effect the injury will have on him. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 11:49:26
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Sue me, I'm not a Habs fan. The players I forgot:
OUT
Kostopoulos 8
Begin 6
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14 goals
IN
Spacek 8
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8 goals
My last post was not a player to player comparison, as any idiot should be able to see. I was simply adding up goals, to illustrate that in terms of production, I think the old team and new team will be a wash. My forgotten players merely make the numbers more even, although as I pointed out there were significant injuries to key players last year.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
...and I'm not a leafs fan, so sue me. I don't see anybody going down that road????
Man, you're oversensitive.
But when you open with "I actually see the Habs as looser defensively," and then proceed to compare them with stats, that kind of sounds like you are comparing, does it not? Again, these moves aren't about goals, you need to get off that track. These moves are about giving Carey some support for a change. |
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 13:33:01
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I said it before...
Leaf fans tend to interpret stats to make their points.
Leafs fans should start evaluating moves without factoring in their emotions.
By the way Slozo, I did not mention that Gainey "aquired" any goalies...???
that's in response to your:
7752: Sorry, I must have missed that memo - what goalie did Gainey sign last month again?
See what I mean... emotions got in the way of that commentary i guess... use your towel...
So far, move for move - Gainey's done what he could to increase numbers in the win column.
Burke's done what he could to "grow" the team to what "should" look like a stronger team in the future - "if" things go as they "should" go...
That's too many "if's" and "should's" for the future.
Fans want WINS, and want them NOW.
Sorry Leaf fans, it may take another decade or two... IF things go as they SHOULD! |
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Guest4271
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Posted - 08/05/2009 : 16:13:00
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| Montreal may beat Toronto this year in points, but it will be the last time in the next 5 years. Burks moves are designed with a purpose. To make his team better in each year. He is smart waiting for the forwards he wants, not taking what is immediately available unlike Gainey. Gainey even said himself he wanted bigger, physical players. These 3 are not that. He is feeling the pressure and reacting to it. Burke does not let the same pressure get to him. He follows his plan and by next year leaf fans will be rewarded. |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 20:56:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4271
Montreal may beat Toronto this year in points, but it will be the last time in the next 5 years. Burks moves are designed with a purpose. To make his team better in each year. He is smart waiting for the forwards he wants, not taking what is immediately available unlike Gainey. Gainey even said himself he wanted bigger, physical players. These 3 are not that. He is feeling the pressure and reacting to it. Burke does not let the same pressure get to him. He follows his plan and by next year leaf fans will be rewarded.
So next season, the Leaf Fans are rewarded with what?
a. a team that barely makes the playoffs
b. a contender
c. the Cup
d. a high 1st Rd pic
I think that I'd pick a. And when I say next season I mean 2010/2011 season. |
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Kirby
Top Prospect
Canada
66 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 21:52:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Seventy7Fifty2
I said it before...
Leaf fans tend to interpret stats to make their points.
Leafs fans should start evaluating moves without factoring in their emotions.
By the way Slozo, I did not mention that Gainey "aquired" any goalies...???
that's in response to your:
7752: Sorry, I must have missed that memo - what goalie did Gainey sign last month again?
See what I mean... emotions got in the way of that commentary i guess... use your towel...
So far, move for move - Gainey's done what he could to increase numbers in the win column.
Burke's done what he could to "grow" the team to what "should" look like a stronger team in the future - "if" things go as they "should" go...
That's too many "if's" and "should's" for the future.
Fans want WINS, and want them NOW.
Sorry Leaf fans, it may take another decade or two... IF things go as they SHOULD!
Same could be said for the Habs. "If" Cammelari puts up the same points as last year and "if" he has good chemistry with Gomez and Gionta, they "should do good. Also, "if" Price and Halak play consistent, then Montreal "should" make the playoffs. Dont forget about your own teams ifs and shoulds
Anyways, I think Montreal is in a worse position than Toronto. Sure Montreal has more skill, but they did a patch job, and Toronto will be better in the years to come. Gainey did a good job in working with what he was dealt with, but I dont see Montreal as strong contenders. I see playoffs but an early exit for them too.
I skate where the puck is going to be, not where it has been.-Wayne Gretzky |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 22:14:03
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I can appreciate that the Leafs fans are passionate, but why exactly will the Leafs be better long term??? I mean, other than Kadri, there isn't any offensive talent on the farm. Even with that, I don't think a GM today, including Burke, would be happy putting their future in the frail hands of a guy who's barely 170 lbs. Their future, with the exception of Kadri is on the ice already with Schenn, Grabovski, and the likes.
TO is not in the same spot at Montreal. Montreal is a legitimate playoff team today and tomorrow. Montreal has their "top line" signed for the next 5 years. They have their 2 key defensemen through the next two season. Both their goalies will be RFA's and will more than likely sign reasonable contracts. I will agree there is not a huge amount of depth on the farm in Montreal either, but their average age is younger than the current Leafs!
The Leafs are not a play off team today and still need a few pieces for the future. Sure, they could do it as soon as next year depending on next years UFA's, but c'mon. Their defense is solid, their goaltending is solid, but there is no offense. And this off season, there are 9 UFA's including their #1 goalie. If the "Monster" turns out to be a "Munster", there are issues unless Luongod or Navokov are interested in moving. You can not say, with you head, that TO is in a better position to compete, today or tomorrow, than Montreal. That's the heart talking, not the head.
It could all change with a trade and/or signing and TO is a lot closer today than they were before the draft, but it's not there yet. |
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DarkHabs
Top Prospect
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/05/2009 : 22:22:44
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Slozo -
So, a difference of 6 goals, but the old bunch had three guys with a significant loss of games due to injury. Easily a wash, just looking at goals. And Lang played more than half the season, and many insiders looked at his injury time and the Habs slide at the end of the season as not being coincidental.
And at defence: Bouillon, Schneider, Brisebois, Komisarek = 17 goals
and to replace them you got Gill and Mara = 7 goals
That is not going to be totally replaced by your youngsters, methinks.
I agree that chances are the Offence is a wash with last year's version (unless 2nd line rebounds but that's a very nig if that I won't nak on). Offence = even
defence - As stated before, I think this is where the Habs should be better than before. Komi is a big loss but added size and grit to offset his physical play departure. they are also responsibel d-Men in their own end, so less garbage goals should occur - I don't think habs will score more goals but I do believe they should let less of them in.. like I stated before, I envision many 2-1 and 3-2 games.. hopefully, they win more of these than they loose.
Big question mark remains Carey Price - which price shows up? First 1/2 of season (16-4-5, 2.30 GAA before injury) or the 2nd 1/2 Price (7-12-5) and looked shaky at the best of times... This, more than anything else will determine the Habs future fate. This is why I believe that Gill, Mora & Hammerlick will be key to Price sucess (especially when combined with Martin's 2-way style of hockey - Defense into Offense. Price should have better support in his own end, especially around his net where Gill and Mora are good at claring bodies - not pretty or elegant but effcient none the less.
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 06:38:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I can appreciate that the Leafs fans are passionate, but why exactly will the Leafs be better long term??? I mean, other than Kadri, there isn't any offensive talent on the farm. Even with that, I don't think a GM today, including Burke, would be happy putting their future in the frail hands of a guy who's barely 170 lbs. Their future, with the exception of Kadri is on the ice already with Schenn, Grabovski, and the likes.
TO is not in the same spot at Montreal. Montreal is a legitimate playoff team today and tomorrow. Montreal has their "top line" signed for the next 5 years. They have their 2 key defensemen through the next two season. Both their goalies will be RFA's and will more than likely sign reasonable contracts. I will agree there is not a huge amount of depth on the farm in Montreal either, but their average age is younger than the current Leafs!
The Leafs are not a play off team today and still need a few pieces for the future. Sure, they could do it as soon as next year depending on next years UFA's, but c'mon. Their defense is solid, their goaltending is solid, but there is no offense. And this off season, there are 9 UFA's including their #1 goalie. If the "Monster" turns out to be a "Munster", there are issues unless Luongod or Navokov are interested in moving. You can not say, with you head, that TO is in a better position to compete, today or tomorrow, than Montreal. That's the heart talking, not the head.
It could all change with a trade and/or signing and TO is a lot closer today than they were before the draft, but it's not there yet.
Thank you sir - you said what i've been trying to say, only that you put it together much better and maybe other forum readers will take your words more serious than mine. ;-)
In the end - Gainey's putting something together for wins NOW.
Burke is counting on building, waiting, hoping things work out, etc..
That's not the way to manage teams anymore, Leaf fans... no GM's in any sport does that anymore. GM's manage to WIN, and win NOW!
This is why Toronto will probably NOT have ANY winners in ANY sport.
They build, and re-build, and hope for the future... then when nothing happens they start all over again with a new GM.
Look at your baseball, basketball, CFL teams... no winners there!!!
Gainey kicked everyone out from Habs that still has the "build for the future mentality". It's WIN, and WIN NOW.
Today's sports teams require a pretty solid core, with help from proven winners - even if these proven winners are only on the team for a couple of years. So the goal is to WIN NOW!
Burke can't handle that - neither can Leaf fans since they've been brainwashed for too many years with hopes for "next year".
And look at you guys now, instead of saying wait till next year - you're so brainswashed that you're all saying wait till 2015!!!!!! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 07:56:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Seventy7Fifty2
Thank you sir - you said what i've been trying to say, only that you put it together much better and maybe other forum readers will take your words more serious than mine. ;-)
Really 7752? "That's what you've been trying to say...."??? Maybe you oughta pay Beans to post for you cuz all i've gotten out of your posts are "GAINEY WINS", "GAINEY WINS AGAIN", "ONCE AGAIN, GAINEY WINS", etc, etc... Now, i totally understand that this thread is "Gainey vs Burke" but c'mon, your posts' purposes seem to be to irritate the Leaf fans. Maybe that's your point, and if it is, it's childish. As Kirby mentioned, your posts and opinions are full of "if's" and "shoulds" as well. Let's face it, this is mostly based on opinions of ours and no one really knows whats gonna happen! 7752....think of what i'm getting at and realize this is coming from a guy who is on the Gainey side of the argument. I can only imagine how Slozo and the other Leaf fans cringe at your posts. 
I'd say Beans has given the best post, coming from a non fan of either guy/team and is subjective. Beans, please feel free to copy and paste your last post every time there's a moronic one posted on this topic! 
I'd suggest it's time to LOCK this thread but that prob wouldn't work anyway. Another just like it would prob start up immediately anyway.  |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 08:52:07
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Ok, this is getting ridiculous. I enjoy a Leafs vs Habs debate as much as the next hockey fan, but I think 1 important fact is getting lost in this debate. Gainey has had what, 6 years (at least...) to shape the club into the team it is today. Burke has had 9 months. To be honest, I don't think there is a very wide gab between the clubs either.
Beans - Im not so sure id be happy that my top line of Cammy, Gionta and Gomez is locked up for 5 years at that much dough. I mean, sure they are good NHL players, but they aren't screaming stanley cup threat by any stretch of the imagination. Before you hab fans freak, I know that its better than what the leafs have. But lets look at some stats from last year.
Gionta – 20 goals – 4mil – 4 cap hit
Gomez – 16 goals – 8 Mil – 7.357 cap hit
Grabovski – 20goals – 0.850 Mil – Same cap hit (will be 3.5mil this year i beleive..)
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Lecavalier 08-09 38 assists
Carter 08-09 38 assists
Nash 08-09 39 assists
Gionta 08-09 40 assists
Stajan 08-09 40 assists
The leafs are getting pretty good bang for their buck when compared to the crazy money Montreal(and others) shelled out for their top line. I know this isn't the be all end all, but I really think that the hab supporters on here on underestimating the offensive capabilities of this leafs team. Toronto had 244 goals last year, good for 10th. Montreal had 242 good for 13th. How exactly is Montreal vastly superior offensivley? The leafs have lost Moore, Antropov and Kubina, but increased ice time for guys like Hagman, Grabovski, Kulemin and Tlusty will close that gap.
The D, IMHO, is way better in Toronto.
Id take Komisarek/Kaberle/Beauchimen/Schenn/Exelby/VanRyn/Finger/White
over Markov/Hamrlik/Georges/Spacek/Gill/Mara ANY day of the week.
Not to mention Gainey let the Habs embarass themselves during their 100th season.
Ok so, if the hab supporters want to declare victory heading into this season, so be it (us leaf fans will just snicker). Just remember, Burke is just getting warmed up. This is going to be his FIRST full season driving the bus. Gainey is lost and looking for directions, and just paid 3 guys, who are 5'5 tall, 19 mil to help him find his way
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 09:37:23
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Way to go Matt! Thanks for your OPINIONS among other things. Judging by the players you selectively chose (to attempt to enhance your opinion), you're saying that you'd rather have Stajan over Lecavalier, Carter, Nash and Gionta? GREAT! Good news for you.....YOU'VE GOT HIM!!!
Oh, and as far as NHL.com is concerned, TO had 250 vs Montreal's 249 in goals for. Keep in mind, that was LAST YEAR!!! You think the D in Toronto is "way better", good for you. You wanna compare last year like you just did on offence. Well then, Montreal gave up 247 goals and Toronto gave up 293? Maybe that's why Montreal finished 13th overall in the league (a mere 6 points behind the Stanley Cup Champions) and made the playoffs and TO finished in 24th and improved their handicaps? I'm guessing you're talking about the new defence Burke has put together vs Gainey's? Well then, why not talk about / compare the new offence that the two have put together. Maybe then you'll see what most people agree on here: Montreal's offence on paper APPEARS to be superior to that of TO's. The D's appear to be a lot closer to being equal (even though my opinion states that TO's is a bit better). All i'm saying is let's compare apples to apples so to speak.
Aside from perhaps 7752's claiming victory (Gainey vs Burke), i wouldn't say Hab fans are claiming anything other than saying their team will finish ahead of yours THIS SEASON! If that's a victory, then you must have wagered with some of them and i'd love a piece of the action!
Obviously you believe that given a couple more years, Burke will have your team in a position to challenge for the cup? Good for you....
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 10:28:44
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hahaha this is great. Of course this is all just my OPINION.
All i was trying to point out was that despite not having sexy names up front, they still managed to score alot of goals, and put up similar numbers to alot of big ticket players. I got my numbers from NHL.com as well....so im not sure why they are different.
The leafs allowed a s***load of goals last year, no doubt. Im definatley hoping its not the same story this year.... healthy toskala, gustavsson and an improved blueline should help that cause.
Look, I know trying to put the leafs on the same level as the habs is like trying to punch through a wall made of adamantium (in hab fans eyes) so I know this is somewhat of a futile effort. But im bored at work and this kills some time haha.
The habs, imo, kind of moved sideways and took a big gamble on 3 guys who are 2nd tier stars, by paying them 1st tier money. I think their defence (aside from Markov and Georges)is slow and not very mobile. The kids on the farm look impressive though. Spacek seems like a bit of a bandaid to me...not sure if you guys know what I mean, but it feels like he just cashed in and is 1 step away from calling it a career.
For the leafs, it wasnt just about who they signed or let go. Its about a shift in attitude and a culture change. There is much more going on down on Bay street than just the signings of a couple good defenceman. The results may not be seen right away, but down the road (yes 7752, there I go again, looking towards the year 2345) i really feel that the leafs are going to become a perennial playoff club once again.
ok...so...I guess I should end this off a note that wont get to many hab fans mad......... GAINEY WINS AGAIN!!!!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Seventy7Fifty2
Top Prospect
69 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:00:22
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Look at all the emotion just ooozzzing out!!!
Burke's only warming up folks... get ready... here he comes...!
Gainey played a simialr waiting game (for last 6 six as we were told by informed leaf fans), it failed on him basically due to injuries last season, he learned from it - and has made changes for immediate impact.
- Gainey had shown progress after EACH year he was there and if it wasn't for injuries last season...he missed it by that much!!!
- Burke's definitley shown what he can do in Vancouver, hasn't he?
Signing the twins, and look at how many cups they have? Let's not forget the way he handled P.Zezel's personal problems...
In Anahiem, the stanley cup ring was handed to him based on a team that was going to win with or wthout him there.
Now he's all yours Toronto, along with his boyfriend that seems to follow him everywhere (strange?), basically because he wanted to move closer to his family "anywhere" on the east coast. Now that's dedication and past progress on his resume.
By the way - someone mentioned Burke's Cup ring (as a GM), was that implying Gainey does not have one?
Well you're right - he doesn't have one, he's got SIX!!!! AND played his entire career for the Habs - so no need to move closer to his family as incentive to work there. |
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Odin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
350 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 11:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt_Roberts85
hahaha this is great. Of course this is all just my OPINION.
All i was trying to point out was that despite not having sexy names up front, they still managed to score alot of goals, and put up similar numbers to alot of big ticket players. I got my numbers from NHL.com as well....so im not sure why they are different.
The leafs allowed a s***load of goals last year, no doubt. Im definatley hoping its not the same story this year.... healthy toskala, gustavsson and an improved blueline should help that cause.
Look, I know trying to put the leafs on the same level as the habs is like trying to punch through a wall made of adamantium (in hab fans eyes) so I know this is somewhat of a futile effort. But im bored at work and this kills some time haha.
The habs, imo, kind of moved sideways and took a big gamble on 3 guys who are 2nd tier stars, by paying them 1st tier money. I think their defence (aside from Markov and Georges)is slow and not very mobile. The kids on the farm look impressive though. Spacek seems like a bit of a bandaid to me...not sure if you guys know what I mean, but it feels like he just cashed in and is 1 step away from calling it a career.
For the leafs, it wasnt just about who they signed or let go. Its about a shift in attitude and a culture change. There is much more going on down on Bay street than just the signings of a couple good defenceman. The results may not be seen right away, but down the road (yes 7752, there I go again, looking towards the year 2345) i really feel that the leafs are going to become a perennial playoff club once again.
ok...so...I guess I should end this off a note that wont get to many hab fans mad......... GAINEY WINS AGAIN!!!!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E".
Alex, not sure what you're getting wound up about, there are any number of postings on numerous threads here from Leafs fans that are just about denigrating the Habs. THATS what got me wound up to begin with. When I called them on it, they all got just a little too touchy.
Matt, its not just us that are saying it. It is the oddsmakers as well. You know, those guys that make a living off of betting?
You keep mentioning all the goals they scored last year, and yes, they did punch above their weight. Good for them! Just like the Habs did two years ago that we keep getting reminded of from Leafs fans.
As far as the job Gainey has done, he basically had to start from scratch, since Houle and by extension Savard, left the cupboard completely bare. Gainey solidfied the farm and that is starting to pay off. They WILL be a better team this year. Now with Molson coming back in, they will go in a new and better direction.
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 13:26:54
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alright, cool. I think we've pretty much covered everything eh?
Now we just sit back and wait for the leafs and habs to battle it out for top spot in the conference!
Gainey is a good Gm, so is Burke. I really hope that for the next decade + that the leafs and habs can take over the East. It'll be hard with whats his crosby and ovechsomeone on other teams and all, but hockey is just more fun when the canadian teams and the original six are kicking ass. Great debate guys!
This was 3 pages of "my dad can beat up your dad" lol.
GAINEY WINS AGAIN!!!! right?
p.s. 7752- there is no way that ducks team in 07 is as tough with Murray as their Gm. no way.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 17:26:35
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But my Dad's a Ninja, he can beat up everyone's Dad......
Seriously, being as much of an impartial observer as I can possibly be, the one thing that Burke and Gainey have done is that both teams should be good enough to make those 6 games on HNIC interesting enough for us Westerns to actually watch.
And now that someone talked about Betting, anyone willing to put their money where their mouth is??? Perhaps a Leaf fan willing to say that if Montreal is ahead of Toronto in the standings that they will have a picture of themselves in a Habs jersey as thier Avatar?? I'm sure Admin would be albe to help out with that???
(True story. Three years ago I bet a guy at work that the Oilers would be ahead of the Flames in the standings. I lost. I had to bar-b-q burgers for the entire company (70+ people) while wearing a purple dress and heels. The day of the BBQ, it was maybe 5 degrees outside.Pictures were made and found their way to corporate office. Nothing like the CEO having blackmail evidence of you in a dress! Anyone else man enough to be that big of a fan and have that much faith in their team??? Let's see it) |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 19:14:57
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I will definitely get in on this.
Firstly, I am a new poster. I have lurked here the last couple years and posted as a guest but recently registered to post.
Secondly, I am Canadiens fan living in the Land of the Canucks, even though I was born in British Columbia. This makes me a two team man, though I live and die with the Habs.
Thirdly, the unique combo of living in Vancouver AND being a Habs fan has caused me to LOVE hating on the Leafs.
The whole topic is supposed to be about who has done a better job in the offseason as I see it. Gainey vs Burke. Its hard to compare the two as they both had separate goals and different visions as to how to get there, when I say there I mean a winning team.
Burke wants to rebuild slowly so as to create an new identity for the team. Its kinda like the new James Bond flicks with Daniel Craig as a blonde bond. Say that five times fast. The vision is to put a hard nosed team on the ice that will compete every night and keep the fans happy as he executes his five year plan. I think that he has done this very well with the acquistions he has made. He saw that they scored in the top 15 but were -43 in goals differential, so he bolstered the blue line with hard nosed dmen. In the process he stole one of my favorite Habs, but that's sports biz for you. (On a side note, which departed Hab will get the biggest boo on homecoming night? My money is on number 8)
I believe that Burke has done a fine job in his first 9 months of power. Got rid of dead weight, or atleast most of it, brought in a hard nosed d-line (maybe too many)and has the basis of a solid defensive team. They should allow less goals next year. Forty three less though? I doubt that. I predict that the Leafs will miss yet another post season but not by very much, 9th or 10th in the East.
Gainey on the other hand saw that the team that he had built for the Centennial season had floundered, after a series of injuries to key players throughout the season had arrested all momentum that they had gained through the first 30 games of the season. He now went into free agency with a large number of UFAs and he knew that he would only be able to sign a few of them, if any. Gainey instead of rebuilding as Burke is doing, decided he would retool instead. Knowing that he had some solid players in key positions but feeling that the team needed a shake up and he went in a new direction. He tried to get Vinny, but that was not to be because two guys that should be making horror flicks cant agree on how to run a Stanley Cup winning franchise. This didn't change the fact that Gainey needed a proven scoring center. Since the UFA market for scoring centers wasn't very good this year (I just looked.. very few, if any true top line centers available), Gainey made a pre draft trade and got Gomez (fyi... my jaw dropped when I saw it on TSN cuz I knew this was the beginning of the end of that Habs team era), at the same time moving a RFA that he wasn't going to sign and the Habs number one prospect. He then went after one of the most coveted free agents in Cammi after having signed Gomez's former linemate, Gionta. Sometime before this all happened Kovalev told Gainey that he would think about the offer that he was made and Komisarek turned down his offer outright to move down the road to T.O. for an extra 500,000 a year. Gainey filled his roster and completed (for now) his retooling of the team.
Much is said that the Habs went sideways this offseason and I mostly agree but sideways for the Habs is still in the playoffs based on last year's record. I think that the Habs will be fighting for a playoff spot as well this year but the difference is I think they have a better chance than the Leaves. Yes the Leafs improved but not enough to propel themselves into the playoffs, not this year anyways. I do think that they will be a playoff team in 2 years but even then they will be low seeds like the Habs unless they land a couple of big name free agents next season or move one or two of their gazzillion dmen for a scorer, cuz the Leafs don't have many true top 6 forwards.
So in the end.... Gainey vs Burke? Apples vs oranges? Leaf fans vs human beings?.... you just cannot compare them...
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Edited by - redneck76ca on 08/06/2009 19:18:13 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 20:07:28
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sniff, sniff, sniff. Does anyone else smell that?? Yes, I think it is. It's a breath of fresh air. A fan that can actually be objective toward not only the team they love but also the team they hate.
Welcome aboard Mr. Redneck. Well said and well done. Great points from both sides and really makes a lot of sense.
I also like the Leafs Fans vs Human Beings crack. A Habs fan can't post about the Leafs without at least one shot.
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 20:57:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
sniff, sniff, sniff. Does anyone else smell that?? Yes, I think it is. It's a breath of fresh air. A fan that can actually be objective toward not only the team they love but also the team they hate.
Welcome aboard Mr. Redneck. Well said and well done. Great points from both sides and really makes a lot of sense.
I also like the Leafs Fans vs Human Beings crack. A Habs fan can't post about the Leafs without at least one shot.
You have no idea how many times I edited out Leaf fan comments.
Another point I forogt to make is how the two teams line ups look like on paper. And, yes, I know that what is on paper is not necessarily what you get on the ice but seriously compare the roster line by line and tell truthfully, which team would you rather have dressed for you. If given that both teams play to their potential next year which line up is better?
I might agree that the Leafs blue line is better, but not by much. One thing that Komi showed me this season is that he has some serious holes in his defensive game. Again, I love the guy and I hate that he now dons a Leafs jersey but he's not as tough as you think. If you saw his run ins with Lucic this year you'd understand.
At keeper, the Habs have Price and Halak (right now anyways) while the Leafs have Toskala or is it Toksala and the Monster. Truthfully, which combo would you like to have? Two young talented but unproven goalies or one 32 yr old unproven goalie and a 24 yr old from Sweden who is reportedly the best player outside of the NHL (exactly like whuts his nuts that signed in Dallas last year...remember him, I dont either) who has never faced the worlds top talent in the most heated hockey market in the world. I know who I take. And if Carey can't get it done I know that Halak will step in and compete hard.
Then it comes to forward, here are the top 9 for each team in no particular order (Leaf fans if I am wrong please correct me):
Leafs: Habs:
Blake Gomez
Hagman Gionta
Grabo Cammi
Stempniak Plekanec
Poni-boy Lapierre
Stajan Pacioretty
Kulemin A. Kostitsyn
Mayers Moen
Tlusty Latandresse
I think that Habs win hands down at forward. I know a lot has been said that the Habs are too small but I don't expect to see Cammi Gionta and Gomez on the same line other than maybe PP1. Instead I think Gomez and Gionta will play with Andrei or D'Agostini or Patches while Cammi and Plekanec will play with whomever doesnt go to the top line. Who knows... maybe Latandresse will finally get a shot at the top line, he could work well with GG especially now that he has gotten over ending Rob DiMao's career in the preseason a few years back and plays to his size with a little mean streak.
Truthfuly ask yourself....which line up would you take for this season? Of course it all depends on your goals.
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 21:07:18
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I like your "first post" too, redneck76ca . . . nice write-up.
One must gain perspective when only looking at the line-up in terms of talent . . . last year, most people (before the beginning of the season) would have taken the talented forwards of Colorado and TB before Toronto . . . but look who did better. So many factors go into it - total team make-up and play, coaching, chemistry, etc.
But in terms of lineups and who I'd take - Habs or Leafs - for defence and goalie, I'd take the Leafs; for forwards, I'd take the Habs. Coaching, I'd take the Leafs. GM, Leafs.
I really am trying to be as objective as possible here. And, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is . . . although I will refuse, on religious grounds, to ever, EVER, buy a habs jersey . . . ;)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 21:22:18
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
I like your "first post" too, redneck76ca . . . nice write-up.
One must gain perspective when only looking at the line-up in terms of talent . . . last year, most people (before the beginning of the season) would have taken the talented forwards of Colorado and TB before Toronto . . . but look who did better. So many factors go into it - total team make-up and play, coaching, chemistry, etc.
But in terms of lineups and who I'd take - Habs or Leafs - for defence and goalie, I'd take the Leafs; for forwards, I'd take the Habs. Coaching, I'd take the Leafs. GM, Leafs.
I really am trying to be as objective as possible here. And, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is . . . although I will refuse, on religious grounds, to ever, EVER, buy a habs jersey . . . ;)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Of course chemistry plays a huge role and until the first puck drops we will have no idea how the Habs will mesh. But then again, maybe the fortress of Toronto dman might not work well together either.
You seriously think the tandem of Toskala and Gustaff..The Monster outclasses Price and Halak? I cant see it personally.
I like Ron Wilson as a coach and Martin is quality but I think that Wilson gets the edge despite his lack of media tact. Then again what do you expect when the GM is Burke.
Its hard to admit this, and some Habs fans might crucify me... but I used to live by the moto "In Bob We Trust". Afterall, look what he did for the Habs as a player, and then the Stars as GM, its hard not to put your faith in such a great hockey mind. But when I heard that Gomez was acquired I knew that the team would be completely different next year, and my gut reaction was "Gainey is an idiot" and when I woke up with my hangover from the pre-Canada Day celebrations to learn that we had signed Hal Gill (who I loved as a Leaf, cuz he wasn't on the Habs)I almost puked. I had had quite a bit to drink the night before, and I really shouldn't have drank all that CC the night before, but I kinda gagged. f***ing Hal Gill, on my team? f*** you Gainey. Seriously. The only good thing about Gill is that he won a Cup and we only signed him for 2 years. Seriosuly. Hal f***ing Gill!
To make a long story pretty much as long as it was gonna be before I wrote this sentence, I think that at this moment I might actually agree that Burke is a better......I can't do it. I tried to admit that RIGHT NOW Burke is a better GM but I didn't, I can't. Afterall, I am a Habs fan living in Vancouver. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 21:56:52
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ha ha ha, fair enough, redneck - I can totally sympathise. You are right, the d-men might not mesh in Toronto . . . but at least I have the feeling that they each have been assembled together on purpose, not chosen as the ones available as Gainey seems to have done at forward and defence.
As to the only true contention to my points - the goalie situation being better in Toronto than Montreal - I really, really have to get to bed, and will go into detail tomorrow. I must work tomorrow, even if it IS a Friday . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2009 : 23:00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by redneck76ca
Leaf fans vs human beings?.... you just cannot compare them...
That's some funny sh1t! redneck, well said, all your posts here! Similar to what i've said regarding the Leafs a little better at D and the Habs a bit better up front. Goalies, IMO, are the real crapshoot here. You can argue either way and one side or the other may just blow away the other come the end of this season? I still think Price hasn't had enough time in the pressure cooker that is Montreal but i've said before, i still don't think you've seen the best of Toskala either. When the leafs picked him up, i thought it was a brilliant aquisition. I really wanna see him in front of a pretty good d that's been assembled. Gustavsson (sp?) is the real unknown. I know what you mean when you compared him to "whuts his nuts" (Fabian Brunnstrom i believe you were referring to? Only know this cuz the 'Nucks were so close to getting him till they screwed over Nonis). Monster could be the calder trophy winner, but he could still be a bust, it'll be very interesting.
Anyway, nice comments and welcome aboard from another new registered poster.
SLOZO.... don't forget Ottawa when you mention teams with forwards one may have chosen over the Leafs last year! I know it's really Alfie, Spezza and Heatley and not much more, but that'd have been enough for me! Still shocked how poorly they and the rest of the Sens performed. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 06:11:27
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Well, the goalies are always harder to guage, but let's examine what they should bring to the table at the very least, what we can expect, and what the potential upside is.
MONTREAL
Price - As a starter last year, he was inconsistent and struggled at times, but ended up with ok numbers despite the flak he got from the fans. Average, I suppose. Everyone knows that he can play much better though, and he is expected to pick it up a notch - whether he does or not is up to him.
At worst: he starts half the games, plays poorly/inconsistent, and is eventually replaced by Halak as starter.
At best: he bounces back with a solid 35 wins in 65 games and shows everyone how talented he really is.
Best Bet: Bit of a bounce back season, but most fans are still not sold . . . maybe 28 wins and a save percentage a bit higher than last year (around .908)
Halak
Had moments of brilliance in a back-up role, but didn't really take the job away from Price either when he faltered. That being said, he has a bright future, and certainly has potential to be a starter in this league.
At worst: he takes a step back and plays poorly while only starting a dozen games.
At best: he wrestles away the starting job from Price with some very solid play.
Best Bet: He starts 20-25 games and performs exactly as before, but obviously starts less games and picks up about 12 wins, has a .910 save percentage.
TORONTO
Toskala - had a very difficult season, battling injuries and inconsistent play (where does one begin and the other end?) while feeling the heat from the media in Toronto. His save percentage was brutal as a starter, and he just couldn't buy a win in the shootout. Leafs fans are getting restless.
At best: With a much improved and more experienced defence in front of him, he has a bounce back season with 35 wins in about 65 games.
At worst: Inconsistent play with some nagging injuries, and he only starts about half of the games.
Best Bet: This is tough, as a lot of it depends on how well Gustavsson plays, however, Toskala is the master of his own destiny, and says he is injury free. A solid 32 wins in close to 60 games with a save percentage above .905 .
"Monster" Gustavsson
Well, the is the real unknown here, supposedly the best goalie who wasn't in the NHL last year. He is brimming with confidence after winning the Swedish league title with some amazing stats in the playoffs (.961, 5 shutouts in 13 games), but he will need to be at his best facing the best shooters in the game in a league that is a step up in calibre. He is the projected goalie of the future.
At worst: Well, tough to say, but I don't see him doing worse than an average back-up. He has all the skills to be a top end goalie, but maybe the adjustment will be too much too soon - 15 games, 5 wins.
At best: He steals the starting job from a slightly faltering Toskala and starts half the games, looking like a future star - 25 wins in 38 games, and a save percentage of .910 or better.
Best Bet: Really difficult to say, because so much depends on Toskala's play to determine how many games he gets . . . but he will get a good look no matter what. I say 20 games, 12 wins, above .905, solid play.
In the end, I like Toronto's goaltending better, because they have one goaltender (Toskala) who is a PROVEN starter, just coming off a rotten year where he played hurt. Montrealers probably can't tell me in convincing fashion that Price is a proven starter, and Halak certainly isn't. Add to that the much higher potential upside with Gustavsson (who may or may not pan out), and the situation looks a bit brighter there for me.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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n/a
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2009 : 06:27:48
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Also forgot to mention: the Leafs have a third goalie, Pogge, who they will most certainly deal, and Burke has said as much without stating he will be traded. There won't be any bidding war over him, but some team will take a flyer on a kid who still has potential to be a starting goalie, or maybe a solid back-up. At any rate, we will get back something for him.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Gainey vs Burke 
