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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2009 : 19:38:59
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No, every hit is not illegal, because I haven't seen a hit like this yet this year in the NHL, in fact. The powers of observation and dissemination are weak amongst many posters here.
Does a player have to leave his feet to make the hit charging?
NO.
Does a player going full speed while hitting a player make it a charge?
NO.
Some boys here need a lesson in reading comprehension . . . well, I was a teacher, so here goes!
EXCESSIVE SPEED + EXCESSIVELY LONG RUN AT THE PLAYER + NO REGARDS FOR SAFETY =
C H A R G E
Liambas was going at full speed, or nearly full speed - everyone agrees with that, I think.
Liambas was going this speed while sizing up the player before the hit for at least 30, perhaps 40 feet, and maintained that speed while doing so.
Liambas saw the player besides the boards, saw him by the boards the whole time he was coming at him at full speed, and didn't think once for the safety of the player about to be hit (or his own, for that matter) while coming at full speed with a player two feet off the boards who was likely to not stand perfectly still for Liambas' hit. He came in knowing that after years of high level hockey, that any hit near the boards could turn dangerous quickly with excessive speed and excessive force . . . or at the very least, he should have damned well learned this by now, as every hockey player worth his salt has to know this!
Porkchop - show me one play where this "exact same play" occurs every other game in the NHL. Bullcrap!
Alex116 - if it's too damn unclear to you what constitutes "too much distance" and "too much force" . . . this was way too much distance going at full speed coming at a player in a very vulnerable position, even before he turned unexpectedly.
Canucks Man: I can tell you don't watch much NHL hockey, because players turn their backs all the time. It is most definitely NOT the first thing you learn while playing hockey (seeing as there is no hitting in the kiddy leagues).
No, the first lesson you learn - if you have a good coach - is safety, and sportsmanship. And as a young player, you would never be taught that coming in full speed like that towards a player against the boards is a 'hockey play', as you are just as likely to hurt yourself on that play. You would slow up like a normal person, so you have time to react to the other player's moves, and to give you a better chance at gaining possession of the puck!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 22:58:06
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What is a big part of safety? Don't put yourself in a position to get hurt, like turning your back when you no your about to get hit. And a hockey player should no If you have the puck, someone is going to try and hit you. You should always be prepared to get hit no matter where on the ice If you have the puck. That is a big part of safety on the ice. As for the part about the excessively long run when do you no need to skate somewhere to hit a guy? The person with the puck was behind the net, so the player skated to there. Its funny how most of the top analysts don't see much wrong with this hit, but what do they no?
CANUCKS RULE!!!
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 00:55:03
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Wow, it's 12:44am local time....i'm just back from a late night out with "the guys", having a bunch of beers, watching MNF and i come home to this? Well, i've commented on a few other threads, but not this one. I'm gonna wait till tomorrow before i reply to the comments made.
Slozo, i know we disagree on this particular topic, and i have to say, i appreciate the fact you are disagreeing with me in a respectful way. I will do the same.
Beans, read your last post again. When you're done, read it again! Lemme know when you're done......
On a side note, and this isn't even a fraction of what i'm gonna comment on, you AGAIN mention the guy who "starts skating in from the centre ice line" ? Please, as i asked earlier, PROVIDE THE FREAKIN' LINK!!!
Regardless of how many times i've said this or will say it again (likely in my comments tomorrow), WE WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT THIS IF NOT FOR THE EXTENT OF THE INJURY! Try judging every hit the same way, not on the injury, but the hit itself! |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 03:47:51
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"Porkchop - show me one play where this "exact same play" occurs every other game in the NHL. Bullcrap!"
Slozo, no reason to get freaky with me. You and I are on the same side of the fence here with this arguement.
And, yes this does happen but rarely is a hit thrown at the NHL level. Just watch a few games and you will notice it. I never looked for it till this hit happened and because of the arguements being made here I decided to watch for that style of play. If I had access to full game footage of everygame I could pick some out for you but will have to watch yourself. It does not happen every game but it does happen.
It is a common play, the defenseman coming behind the net turns and reverses the puck when he sees the forechecker coming. Either the forechecker finishes his check cleanly with reasonable force but almost every time he continues his pursuit of the puck. And yes they are often at full speed. The difference is the skill and the players use common sense.
I will not get into a pissin match with you about it. Just watch and soon you will see it happening more then you think. Sometimes it is even a set break out play. Even watch the OHL games and you will see it happen. Everytime without the injury!
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Edited by - Porkchop73 on 11/10/2009 03:51:00 |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 05:15:17
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Porkchop:
If the check at the NHL level is laid "with reasonable force", and yet, the player is going "full speed", how can the force be "reasonable"?
Full speed going towards the boards is way too fast for a check, why don't YOU check again, eh? Seriously - the only time in the NHL you actually see full speed going towards the boards is when they are on the rush, or two or more players are in pursuit of the puck.
Almost every other time the forechecker coming in has to moderate his speed, at least somewhat.
In the NHL, with that skill level, the reason you don't see someone coming at full speed like that is that they would miss the check completely most of the time, and potentially hurt themselves trying to throw a big check. You have to let up somewhat to actually make a hockey play.
In the open ice, it's different - you miss, and you can just skate a circle or continue on your way, and even if clipped your momentum is never stopped dead - unless you actually lay a perfect hit, which is very rare. Coming towards the boards, you have to be careful as the forechecker - the boards do not forgive if you hit a rut in the ice, or if the player you are looking to check moves at the last minute and you miss him completely.
The point that continually gets missed is that you very rarely see someone coming into the boards for a check AT THAT SPEED, because it is very dangerous.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 12:17:50
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Hey Alex, I read my post again. If you wanted me to see how brilliant I am for a 2nd time, thanks! 
I assume you were eluding to my final comment about bringing a gun onto the ice. It was completely absurd that that was the point.
There is not a single rule against bringing a gun onto the ice. Unless TBar can find is somewhere of course.
If you missed the point, let me explain. The 'hit' we have been discussing may or may not be 'legal' by definition of the rule. That's still debateable. However, even if it IS a 'legal' hit, it does not make it right.
No different than there not being a rule against bringing a gun on the ice, so it must be legal???
Sure, but it's not right.
Maybe my point is a little more clear now.
I will work on the link that shows the kid skating in hard from centre ice and not letting up until the hit happens. I can't get onto youtube or other video sites at work.
And one thing we agree one completely is that this doesn't even get TV time if there is no injury.
But isn't that a problem in itself?? It's ok for hockey players to do dangerous things on the ice as long as no one gets hurt??
Isn't that really the root cause of all these needless injuries?? |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 14:19:57
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Beans a couple things here. First im sure you would find it somewhere in the LAW that it is illegal to bring a gun into a public building such as a rink. You dont have to get upset that I know the game to a greater extent then you do just learn something.
Secondly everytime a player steps on the ice he or she is putting themselves in danger. This is an extremly fast game on an extremly hard playing surface with boards. In any game theyre are over 100 ways a player could hurt him or her self, something as simple as loseing and edge and going into the boards head first and your in a wheelchair for the rest of your life so the danger is always theyre.
Thirdly I do agree that the problem lies in the fact that only due to injury we are talking about this. Legal or not they definitly need to make the written rule in a better fashion so its easily understood. Change it if needed. Now I just hope the next big hit that happens in the OHL will follow suit and suspend the hitter regardless of injury but we all know that wont happen because then we will have 20 more kids suspended for the season. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 14:24:35
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Beans, no, my comment had nothing to do with your "bringing a gun onto the ice" analogy, in fact, i got a good chuckle out of that. Having said that, i'll bet Tbar can find such rule.  It may not say specifically "a gun", but i wouldn't doubt there's a rule in there saying you can't bring something unrelated to your equipment or something like that? Either way, i know you were being facetious and i found it humorous.
I may as well pull a "brentrock" and copy and paste from a post above. However, i guess it's not plagiarizing if it's my own post? After your last comment, i see we're really arguing over nothing. You say, even if the hit is legal, you still think it's wrong! I've already said, i agree that the hit was ILLEGAL as defined by the poorly written and even more horribly officiated charging and boarding rules.
So, we're arguing whether it's "right" or not regardless of it's legality. This takes us back to the other post where you argue hit's like Richards/Booth and Mitchell/Toews are legal but not "right" or necessary. I need not debate that further as i've made it clear i disagree with your views on that.
You even agree that if not for the injury, this wouldn't be getting the attention it is. Does that not say something to you about it? To me, it says that the hit wasn't as violent as some seem to think and it's the outcome that is fueling the fire here. As for your question about him hitting the boards and missing the check? Yes, i can almost guarantee you that if Liambas had missed and crashed into the boards, he'd have skated away and prob not even had to "get up" cuz he prob wouldn't even have gone down! You make it seem like the guy was going 90mph or something. He wasn't even going full speed for crying out loud! Did it really appear to you that he was going full speed? If so, he's the most graceful skater i've ever seen because it looks effortless! Oh, and IMO, if Fanelli takes the hit straight on, he prob skates away too. It was a freak incident where he mistakenly left himself in a vulnerable postion and unfortunately his helmut hit the metal stanchions between panes in the glass.
Call me crazy, but i really don't think this hit was any worse than a lot of hits you see in hockey. Unfortunately, the outcome was.
Slozo, not entirely sure what you meant by this: Alex116 - if it's too damn unclear to you what constitutes "too much distance" and "too much force" . . . this was way too much distance going at full speed coming at a player in a very vulnerable position, even before he turned unexpectedly.
I mean, i sort of see what you're saying, but you're defining the rule by using this as an example? Unfortunately, ref's can't do that. There has to be a more clear definition as far as i'm concerned. If they change the rule and a hit like this is deemed to be illegal still (again, i'm agreeing it's illegal as defined), so be it, i can live with that. But i still think that rule needs some work to clarify it.
Beans, your last point about hockey players doing dangerous things is a good one. But, if that's what's causing all the needless injuries, then what's to be done? It's a contact sport, oh wait, i shouldn't tell you that, you already know that and got mad when reminded you that hockey's a fast game? You wanna take hitting out of hockey? Fine, that's your view, personally, i prefer it the way it is. Yeah i'd like to see players show a little more respect, but there's always gonna be guys playing on and over the edge.
Lastly, i'm really glad all the "experts" in your office agree with you. However, do you not find yourself a little surprised that the real hockey experts didn't find the hit to be all that bad? Funny how, like me, they were sorry to see such an injury occur, but they considered the hit to be something you see a lot of. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 14:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by tbar
Beans a couple things here. First im sure you would find it somewhere in the LAW that it is illegal to bring a gun into a public building such as a rink. You dont have to get upset that I know the game to a greater extent then you do just learn something.
Secondly everytime a player steps on the ice he or she is putting themselves in danger. This is an extremly fast game on an extremly hard playing surface with boards. In any game theyre are over 100 ways a player could hurt him or her self, something as simple as loseing and edge and going into the boards head first and your in a wheelchair for the rest of your life so the danger is always theyre.
Thirdly I do agree that the problem lies in the fact that only due to injury we are talking about this. Legal or not they definitly need to make the written rule in a better fashion so its easily understood. Change it if needed. Now I just hope the next big hit that happens in the OHL will follow suit and suspend the hitter regardless of injury but we all know that wont happen because then we will have 20 more kids suspended for the season.
Ah, Tbar, I appreciate this more than you know. Firstly, I was not trying to throw a slight at you. I do appreciate your knowledge of the rules and if there is something specific about guns in hockey, I do want to see it.
That being said, there is the flaw. You say there are laws against people bringing a gun into a public building. But are there not also laws towards physical force to another person??
Go into a bank at full sprint and run into the first person in line, hitting them into the counter and tell me what happens. Would would be charged with assault!
Point being, there are different rules within a sport to govern it. It is against the law to impose physical force onto another human being. However, you can body check as part of the sport of hockey.
Some rules are clear and some of them implied. It is implied that a player can not shoot another player with a gun. There is no rule for it.
However, where there are rules, there are also things implied. In hockey, it is legal to body check your opponent within the framework of the rules. However, it is also implied that you body check should never be executed in a way where an injury is nearly a certainty.
And again, we all watch hockey. We all know it's fast, played on a hard surface, and people can and will get injured. But those injuries that happen in the normal course of play (such as Williams from Detroit this past week end) and a player getting hit so hard that his helmet is cracked fracturing his skull, requiring him to be air lifted to hospital where he spent 7 days, and may never play hockey again are two completely different things.
So you are right. Every time a player steps on the ice, they run the risk of getting hurt by catching an edge and falling awkardly into the board for example. But none of them sign up for(nor should they even have to worry about)anything where one players complete disregard could end their career.
Two completely different things |
Edited by - Beans15 on 11/10/2009 14:35:41 |
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tbar
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
376 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 15:24:25
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Ok im just going to throw this out they're to all the guys calling for Liambas head. How do you supose he is to "hit him less forcefully".
I keep trying to answer that question and just cant see how. When forechecking your maingoal is to attack the zone with SPEED your second goal is to apply the BODY to the player with the puck in hopes of stripping the puck.
From what I see in this clip is a forechecker attacking the zone with speed. He see's he is going to have a chance to lay a big hit once he hits the bottom of the circle. He plants his feet and shifts his weight in a way to throw the bodycheck. The player being checked turnes his back at the last second and this very unfortunate situation happens.
I personally think theyre is nothing the checker can do in this situation.
Now lets say your going threw the nutreal zone and at full speed trying to get in position and all a sudden the puck carrier makes a bad pass to one of his teammates and you hit this player immediatly. How do you let up? your allready going full speed and in a instent a apposing player has the puck in the trolly tracks right in front of you. You have to take the body if you dont he beats you and if you take the body theyre will be on hell of a big impact on that play. This game is played at high speed and therfore high speed collisions happen some worse then other's. They dont call it the fastest game on ice for no reason.
Im also curious has anybody seen anything as far as if the helmet was tested after the fact? I wonder if it was a faulty helmet possibly? Does anybody know what kind of helmet it was? I have been destroyed and seen players get hit incredibly hard in my playing days and have never seen a helmet crack. |
Edited by - tbar on 11/10/2009 15:29:08 |
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Guest2120
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 17:09:30
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"The point that continually gets missed is that you very rarely see someone coming into the boards for a check AT THAT SPEED, because it is very dangerous"
Exactly my point also!
I am not sure but I think we are stating the same thing using different words. I fully understand what you are saying. And I agree with you.
All I am saying is that since I started looking for this type play in the games that I watch I have noticed it actually happens more then I thought. The result is different because most of the time the hit is never made. Some times the hit is made but it is not at full stride and as forceful.
I am not calling you out, saying your wrong, or pissing in your coffee. No reason to go all Hanley on me, jeez. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 17:49:12
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TBAR: Yes, there is something the forechecker can do: SLOW. DOWN.
(for his safety, as well as his target . . . which should only be his target because he wants the puck, btw)
I have repeated at length, over and over again, how he was going too fast . . . to slow down is too obvious an answer to the great connundrum "how do I prevent a terrible play going at full speed?!?" Hilarious, if it wasn't so annoying that I had to constantly repeat myself.
Slow down, kid, and it's not a charge - it's a hockey play to lay a check and gain possession of the puck.
PORKCHOP: Fair enough, I appreciate that you have been so dimplomatic and have made concessions in your arguments. After your last post, I also think we are close enough to not have to argue anymore! (phew!)
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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sharksfan44
Rookie
Canada
228 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 18:02:39
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| Tbar, a hit at full speed in the neutral zone is different than one on the forecheck. When ur going full speed and someone makes a bad play, and u hit the guy, there is almost no time to react its a bang bang play. u even said it urself, "Now lets say your going threw the nutreal zone and at full speed trying to get in position and all a sudden the puck carrier makes a bad pass to one of his teammates and you hit this player immediatly." key word: immediatley. there is almost no time to react. with this hit, fanelli has control of the puck for 2 seconds b4 he gets hit, IMO liambis have slowed down to prevent this hit from being even more dangerous, which he didnt |
Edited by - sharksfan44 on 11/10/2009 18:03:24 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 18:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2120
Boo to this topic. I'm tired of debating this hit.
For all future NHL suspensions, please refer to the following chart:
http://www.downgoesbrown.com/2009/11/nhl-suspensions.html
Great link! I think you're on to something! |
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Guest4804
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Posted - 11/10/2009 : 19:27:11
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| Why should he slow down? His job is to hit people as hard as he can, and he did just that. If he slows down he might as well not play hockey. If Fanelli hadn't turned his back then the only time we would be talking about this hit would be on the hits of the week. |
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Guest6003
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Posted - 11/10/2009 : 21:24:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4804
Why should he slow down? His job is to hit people as hard as he can, and he did just that. If he slows down he might as well not play hockey. If Fanelli hadn't turned his back then the only time we would be talking about this hit would be on the hits of the week.
so somebody doesnt get killed the hitter or the hittee |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2009 : 03:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest4804
Why should he slow down? His job is to hit people as hard as he can, and he did just that. If he slows down he might as well not play hockey. If Fanelli hadn't turned his back then the only time we would be talking about this hit would be on the hits of the week.
You obviously have not read the other posts here. The object of the game is to score goals, win games. You are allowed to check in this game to accomplish those goals. You are not allowed to try and hurt some one.
Also Liambas job is not to "hit is hard as he can". It is to forecheck and cause puck turnovers. His job is not to hurt people doing so! He can do his job a full speed using common sense instead of stupidity.
Read other posts here, and you will get the point. |
Edited by - Porkchop73 on 11/11/2009 13:33:39 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 09:50:29
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Alex, because I think your awesome and you asked for it, here is the link that shows the kid start skating at the red line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TdTnNSEhlE
If you watch the link, you will see #24 on the bottom left corner of the screen and he starts pumping in the dump in. He flashes out of the screen for a second and then reappear. His legs don't stop pumping until he gets to the goal line.
If you also watch the slo mo portion (at the 0:42 mark) it looks like the hit is closer to shoulder to shoulder than it is from behind. The kid did turn his back and put himself in a vulnerable position, but the hit itself was not to the back. It was to the shoulder and his head hit the boards.
And just to clear something up, I love hitting in hockey. It is a HUGE part of the game and it's vitally important. I never once said I wanted hitting out of the game. What I have always said is that somewhere along the line, the body check became no longer a play to separate the man from the puck. It is now a play to separate a man's head from the rest of his body.
The later type of hit has ZERO place in hockey. The best hits are the ones where both players skate away. And there is really no difference in the play nor to the 'humiliation factor' if a player is on the a$$ on the ice from a really hard hit or a less aggressive hit. One players is still picking himself off the ice.
The key point to that is he is picking HIMSELF of the ice. It's not and EMT picking him up and putting him on a stretcher. (Or in Colorado's case, a spine board slid accross the ice. Did anyone else see that when Tucker got that concussion?? I thought that was weird.) |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 11:29:01
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Beans, thanks for the link. While it does show Liambas cruising in from center, it still can't be said that his intent was the hit at that point. I'm not saying that's what you're saying, but some are. He was obviously charging in on the forecheck and i will agree, he's gotta take some responsibility when his plan changes from chase the puck / forecheck, to throwing a body check.
As for the shoulder/head/back hit, i've always agreed that it was shoulder to shoulder, albeit, still sorta from behind as Fanelli's motion of playing the puck does in fact expose his back to some degree. I guess we'll never really know how bad the hit may have been had Fanelli made a different play?
I apologize if what i said seemed to imply you wanting to take hitting out of hockey. I was only trying to make a point. I'd say, and i think we both agree, in a perfect world we'd see hard hitting, with no injuries. I know what you're saying with the hitting having changed and seemingly more guys headhunting but i find it's kinda like the game itself. It too has changed. Guys are bigger, equipment is larger AND harder and the guys move faster. It all results in a more dangerous game. Like i said, i do agree, guys have to start showing more respect AND the league needs to make a few changes to help with the safety. Hopefully with the latest news out of the GMs meetings, things are about to change?
By the way, you or anyone see that hit last night in the Sabres/Oilers game? McArthur of the Sabres took out someone with a questionable hit? Didn't see who it was, but he was down for a bit and needed help leaving the ice. I'm guessing you, as an Oiler fan, must have seen it and know who it was? What did you think?
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 12:25:08
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I don't recall saying the guy intended on laying the hit at centre ice. I was saying that someone skating in hard from centre is going way to fast to lay a hit. It's a dangerous play, regardless of it being legal or not.
Completely agree that guys need to start showing more respect. I also think that starting in Grass Roots hockey is the way to fix it long term. Coaches should coach their kids to finish their checks, but they should also be coaching the dangers of hitting and the difference between finishing a check and a dangerous hit.
I did see the Buffalo game last night. Dangerous to say the least. The Oiler player was in a vulnerable position and the Buffalo guy pushed him from behind into the boards. You also see the Buffalo player very quickly put his glove on the Oiler's back, kind of checking on him?? I don't think it was intentional at all, but still very dangerous. I believe the guy got a 5 for boarding and a game misconduct. Proper call, dangerous play, just another example. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 13:18:48
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I know you didn't say Liambas had intended from center to hit Fanelli, but some seem to word their arguments that way, no you. It's really a moot point though, as it would be almost impossible as he wouldn't know if there was a guy to hit or not at that point?
As for last nights hit, it was Liam Reddox who got nailed. At first, when i saw the hit (live) i thought it was more of a missed shoulder to shoulder hit. However, i just found this link that makes it look worse! At the 46sec mark, the hit looks very accidental, however at the 58 sec mark, we see a different view and you clearly see him give Reddox a little shove with his right glove/forearm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qPWvGt7aLk
I give him credit for "checking on him" as you said. Strudwick came in looking for retribution but i think realized this was not something McArthur intended to do and prob saw his reaction and calmed down. Good of the officials to get in there right away and as well for the rest of the Oilers to not make matters worse! |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2009 : 16:49:40
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First Post in a very long time!!!!
In regards to the McCarthur hit, I don't think it was that intentional. McCarthur isn't that type of a player and after the play you could tell how terrible the young man felt. Reddox had a step on McCarthur and he just tried to catch up but hit him accidentally and unfortunately Reddox went into the boards head first.
Now to the main discussion of this topic, I didn't read every message but I want to say something that came into my head as soon as I saw this video.
#1) Liambas hit him dirty, no argue about that. He also hit him with a forearm which is not a safe and clean way to hit your opponent. People say he was head hunting for the big hit, I disagree. He's obviously a player that plays with lots of intensity and he was in on the forecheck as fast as he could and he did what the first person in on the forecheck is suppose to do and that is to finish your check.
#2) Otters left himself out to dry, you NEVER turn your back to the play especially when you got a guy skating towards you AND when you're that close to the boards. You're just asking to get hurt! That's the problem now with these young players, me being one of them, we feel we won't get hurt if we turn our back to the play with all the equipment we have. If you go watch Hockey from the '70's they never turned their back to the play because they knew they would get hit and have a very high chance of getting hurt.
If Otters wouldn't have turned his back to the play everyone would be saying it was a nice hit but since he turned his back to the play he's in a hospital right now. I'd like to see anyone capable of going in on the forecheck at that speed and in a matter of less than a second avoid hitting the guy. Liambas had NO time to react and change what he was doing.
I hope Otters will recover safely and be playing again soon.
PainTrain is back to Pickuphockey, woo!
When the going gets tough....the tough get going! |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2009 : 00:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by PainTrain
First Post in a very long time!!!!
In regards to the McCarthur hit, I don't think it was that intentional. McCarthur isn't that type of a player and after the play you could tell how terrible the young man felt. Reddox had a step on McCarthur and he just tried to catch up but hit him accidentally and unfortunately Reddox went into the boards head first.
Now to the main discussion of this topic, I didn't read every message but I want to say something that came into my head as soon as I saw this video.
#1) Liambas hit him dirty, no argue about that. He also hit him with a forearm which is not a safe and clean way to hit your opponent. People say he was head hunting for the big hit, I disagree. He's obviously a player that plays with lots of intensity and he was in on the forecheck as fast as he could and he did what the first person in on the forecheck is suppose to do and that is to finish your check.
#2) Otters left himself out to dry, you NEVER turn your back to the play especially when you got a guy skating towards you AND when you're that close to the boards. You're just asking to get hurt! That's the problem now with these young players, me being one of them, we feel we won't get hurt if we turn our back to the play with all the equipment we have. If you go watch Hockey from the '70's they never turned their back to the play because they knew they would get hit and have a very high chance of getting hurt.
If Otters wouldn't have turned his back to the play everyone would be saying it was a nice hit but since he turned his back to the play he's in a hospital right now. I'd like to see anyone capable of going in on the forecheck at that speed and in a matter of less than a second avoid hitting the guy. Liambas had NO time to react and change what he was doing.
I hope Otters will recover safely and be playing again soon.
PainTrain is back to Pickuphockey, woo!
When the going gets tough....the tough get going!
PainTrain.....Just curious, are you then saying that because he hit him with the forearm, it was dirty? Cuz, i have to say, i've seen many differnt clips of this hit now and have yet to see any that show him using his forearm. By that, i mean, it's definitely not sticking out like a blatant elbow. Sure, his forearm hits him, and likely first, but what the heck is a guy supposed to do with that arm when he's throwing a hit??? His arm doesn't leave his side till after impact and if you play hockey as you say you do, i'm sure you'd agree, you have no other choice. To me, his arm clearly is at his side like it would be during any clean check.
Now calling it clean is another topic. I'm not gonna get into that as that's what this entire 3 page thread is about. I recommend reading thru it. First off, "Otter" as you called him, is actually Ben Fanelli of the Kitchener Rangers and the guy who hit him is Michael Liambas of the Erie Otters. To summarize, most, i believe, agree, the arm wasn't up, he didn't leave his feet, he wasn't head hunting, Fanelli turned as part of the hockey play he made whether right or wrong BUT Liambas was going far too fast to make this an overall good clean hockey hit.
My apologies to the rest of you if my summary doesn't fit what your feelings are but that's kinda the last taste i got from most comments? |
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Guest6362
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Posted - 11/13/2009 : 01:40:31
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| This was simply an unfortunate end result of a hit. There was no charge, his feet weren't moving, stick was down, elbow down. It was just unfortunate that the kid's head hit the partition and broke his helmet. If there is no injury and the kid pops back up, there is no penalty. As far as asking Liambis to slow down, you have not ever played the game. You cannot ask a player to back off, it simply isn't done, if you play, play hard. Sometimes injuries happen. I hope the kid makes a full recovery. |
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M-y-K-E-A-l
Top Prospect
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2009 : 14:35:58
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| I personally like the hit, maybe a little bit excessive, but i mean it is hockey what do you expect, he's going in to forecheck. I fell kinda bad for the guy, I mean just think if it was you that made the hit.... |
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M-y-K-E-A-l
Top Prospect
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2009 : 14:40:36
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| What i think made it alot worse is that the defense's helmet flew off and he didn't get much support, his head slammed into the glass then the ice |
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Guest2120
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Posted - 11/14/2009 : 16:43:41
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Fanelli gave an interview on the HNIC pregame show, anyone catch it?
He refused to give an opinion on the hit itself, said he doesn't remember it, but would look to forgiving Lambias "some time in the future."
More importantly, he appears poised to make a full recovery, including the possibility of a return to hockey. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 13:30:50
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| Glad the kid is ok but there's nothing to forgive yep he was going fast yep it a boarding penalty maybe he should look to forgiving the coach that thought he was ready to play with kids twice his size in that leage or maybe to forgiving himself for having his chin strap so loose it looked like a necklace. Liambas doesn't take another stride from before the top of the circle and doesnt leave his feet. Its a crime that david branch felt it necessarry to end 2 careers over this and it makes the OHL look like a mickey mouse second rate european league. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 09:07:22
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Did anyone else think this thread would be brought back from the dead?? I didn't.
Guess which moron GM in the NHL is actually giving the Lambias kid a shot in the pro's?? Not only that, guess what GM made the statement
"He's an honours student. Everyone that's ever played with him raves about his character."
If you guessed Brian Burke, you are correct.
http://sports.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=25491325 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 11:01:54
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Awesome! Leaf's fans rejoice, Burke's finally found his frontline center!
Oh wait, Liambas is a winger.......oh well, back to the drawing board. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 14:35:03
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I cannot say just how disappointed I am with this. Not only that this career killing idiot got an invite to the Leafs but they also pursued him last year while he was suspended in his minor pro league as well.
I lost a little respect for Burke when he states that the hit on Fanelli was a good hit gone horribly wrong. Shake your head Burke. Won't it be great when this idiot runs Kessel during Leafs camp. |
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whereismykovalchuk
Top Prospect
Canada
19 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2010 : 15:14:35
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kay i missed out on this but the hit wasnt that dirty if you consider that players need to protect themselves as well it is that 16 year old kids fault he is in the hospital because he wasnt wearing his helmet properly look at the video on mute, it will show you that im right, and his skull hits a metal partition rinks with that are not meant for peewee kids to play on nevermind an OHL team i saw the hit my thought was they really need to fix that before suspending a player for making the right play
and good on Brian Burke for giving a young man an opportunity to redeem himself after an unfortunate event |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2010 : 03:07:03
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i was wondering why this thread was brought back oh well he'll maybe get suspended from the marlies this year at best... east coast league is where he will end up
Pasty |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2010 : 07:52:45
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Yeah, I saw that Burke gave him a chance . . . not happy at all about that, and I am not sure why Burke would put himself out there by making this statement.
Because I'll tell you, it's not a hockey move - Liambas will never make it to the NHL. He isn't good enough. So I am dumfounded as to why Burke is making this political statement . . . my only guess is that he has some connection to Liambas or his family/friends? It only makes sense if Burke is doing it out of loyalty, or to make some political statement on what he thinks are legal hits/plays.
I hope it gives some other goon the opportunity to take a run at Liambas, though. Is that wrong?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2010 : 08:55:51
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quote:
Originally posted by whereismykovalchuk
kay i missed out on this but the hit wasnt that dirty if you consider that players need to protect themselves as well it is that 16 year old kids fault he is in the hospital because he wasnt wearing his helmet properly look at the video on mute, it will show you that im right, and his skull hits a metal partition rinks with that are not meant for peewee kids to play on nevermind an OHL team i saw the hit my thought was they really need to fix that before suspending a player for making the right play
and good on Brian Burke for giving a young man an opportunity to redeem himself after an unfortunate event
Here, i've got a few extra periods for you .................................................................................................. I try to save these up for those who need some. Clearly, you do.
All kidding aside, a post is far more easy to read and comprehend if there's a little punctuation in it. I'm by no means the grammar police, but that post was tough to stomach. |
Edited by - Alex116 on 09/09/2010 09:22:00 |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2010 : 22:46:44
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I think it's nice that Liambas is getting a second chance.
What really annoys me is that Burke was willing to take him on last year, which Liambas himself turned down, saying it was the wrong time, on an interview posted on TSN.ca.
Great that Liambas gets a chance, but I don't like why. It seems that he is getting the chance to play for Burke because of his (bad) reputation.
P.S.: Alex, I even bolded my periods for you, and, in fact, you are the closest this forum has to grammar police. |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2010 : 04:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by polishexpress
I think it's nice that Liambas is getting a second chance.
What really annoys me is that Burke was willing to take him on last year, which Liambas himself turned down, saying it was the wrong time, on an interview posted on TSN.ca.
Great that Liambas gets a chance, but I don't like why. It seems that he is getting the chance to play for Burke because of his (bad) reputation.
P.S.: Alex, I even bolded my periods for you, and, in fact, you are the closest this forum has to grammar police.
I believe you have called my grammer out before Polishexpress, maybe you can be Alex's deputy? Their should be a grammer and spell check option in these boxes. I would and could certainly use it. LOL
Pasty |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2010 : 21:32:04
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polishexpress - WHY, exactly, is it "nice" that Liambas gets a "second chance" ?
(I would argue here that it is, in fact, his third chance after the big incident, but overall he's had a good dozen "second chances" with his many suspensions)
He gets suspended over and over and over again for being a goon who runs at players, slew foots, cross checks from behind . . . and yet, he is according to Burke and many others a "good kid".
The logic is brutal.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2010 : 22:55:12
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Okay, I guess it's nice that Liambas gets a 3rd chance.
Remember the brutal hits that Steve Downie had delivered, especially the hit on McAmmond in preseason? Yet, he's still playing and slowly becoming more mature.
I'm thinking that maybe Liambas can change, but I agree, Burke is giving him a chance simply because of his wreckless hits.
Although Liambas should be and is accountable for his actions, he is doubtless been inculcated for years to compete, and view the opposition as enemies.
We are now seeing the fruits of labor of a society that emphasizes selfishness, greed, and a love of violence.
Burke hiring Liambas is clear evidence that he promotes the "do anything to win" mentality.
A sad testament to the state of affairs in competitive sports. |
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Brutal OHL hit! 
