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Guest8947
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 Posted - 11/04/2009 : 14:17:31
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With just 6 points in 12 games without Phil Kessel and only 1 win, in the next 12 games with Kessel in the lineup how many points do you see the Leafs getting?
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Guest2214
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 15:33:44
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Leafs will never score goals until they replace J.Blake and M.Stagen with some real hockey players. These 2 get a lot of 1st line ice time and they are not worth a pinch of coons s??t. Leafs are ok only with their 2nd and 3rd lines.
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Guest9494
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Posted - 11/04/2009 : 20:00:22
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| prob same amount kessel has no savard doing all the dirty work setting him up pretty obvious how he will do this year |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 07:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
prob same amount kessel has no savard doing all the dirty work setting him up pretty obvious how he will do this year
Kessel doesnt need svaard as much as people seem to think. They guy was a great hockey player well before he ever played with Svaard and he will be a great hockey player without him.
If you have watched Kessel play and seen the goals he has scored, it is mostly because he has amazing speed and an awesome wristshot. Savards passing was nice for sure, but there are others whop can pass the puck in this league.
If the Leafs dont win against Carolina on friday I might have a nervous breakdown. Just kidding, but seriously, I think the Leafs will win at least half of their next 12.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 10:09:16
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Ok, let's look at this question seriously: the Leafs are in a hole, they played lousy to start, and are playing a lot better, although they are still not getting any breaks on the ice whatsoever.
Next 12:
Carolina (2), Detroit, Minny, Chicago, Calgary, Ottawa, Washington, the Isles, TB, Florida and Buffalo. 6 at home, 6 away.
Surely, the Leafs can chalk up at least one win against Carolina, and among Minnesota, Ottawa, the Isles, Florida and TB, it would be reasonable to expect 3, probably 4 wins.
Detroit is limping right now and could be had; Chicago will be tough, as will be Calgary; with the Leaf's luck, Ovechkin probably returns on the night we play them (how the season has gone for us!); and Buffalo is always a tough game for us. So, out of these 5 games, maybe we can squeak out one, maybe two wins.
With the way the Leafs have played of late, the dam has to burst soon with all the chances to score and no luck, so I'll go optimistic: 6 wins, 4 losses, 2 OTL/SO losses.
Unless Gustavsson gets hurt, in which case, all bets are off! 
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 10:24:09
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| I could see them go .500? I was THAT impressed by Kessel's first game that i think a few goals by him and they pull out a couple of close one's. They seem to be getting the bad breaks and losing the close ones so with a couple goals from Phil, and a few breaks going their way, i'll go with 12 points out of 12 games. |
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Guest4662
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Posted - 11/05/2009 : 13:04:25
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the leafs are going to do the same with kessel as they did without him. they still lack in many area's especially defence and kessel will not improve that if anything he will get caught in the zone leading to odd man rushes for the other the.
The only thing he prove is that he can take a bunch of shots at the net. but like the rest of the team. he couldnt score either |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2009 : 13:40:23
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well, thats easy to say considering their start but if you watch the games closely you can see that the D is really starting to gel, the Monster is playing great and the team as a whole are creating alot of scoring chances. The big problem now is the lack of finish. Every bounce goes the other way, or a shot gets blocked, or it hits the post, or the just straight up flub it and f*** it all up.
I can see the team turning the corner with each passing game. They havent lost in regulation since Vancouver (a game in which they badly outplayed the canucks) and have been able to make big comebacks against Buffalo and Montreal. If they keep working hard the wins will start to come.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 11/06/2009 : 08:46:21
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| for all those leaf fans that think Kessel is a premeire scorer without Savard take into effect his breakout year last year 47% of his goals first assist was from Savard and that doesn't even take into the 2nd assist from him i wish i could find the video on tsn but its gone right now there was no other player that depended more on the first assist then kessel. |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 09:46:32
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So, I guess the argument is: if any player plays with Savard, and because they play on the same line Savard gets a lot of assists on their goals . . . that the player in question, if moved to another team, will not get even close to as many goals?
I must be missing something . . . is Savard the only guy who can pass? Was Kessel getting top line minutes with the team's best passer in Boston because he wasn't a talented sniper? If Ryder and Wheeler, both recognised to be pretty talented players in their own right, weren't given those top line minutes, was it because of someone feeling sorry for that no-talent guy Kessel?
Use your heads, people.
Kessel wouldn't have been put on the top line, and wouldn't have STAYED on the top line in Boston, unless he belonged there. He produced, which isn't a given for any decent to great player who gets time with a talented playmaker like Savard. And, Boston was not lacking for winger talent last year, and they were a top team, so . . . for me, that says it all.
That, and from what I've seen, he has serious game.
Why is every anti-Leaf comment so ridiculously assinine?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 10:24:57
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqXSQz6FI5s
This is a video of all 42 goals kessel scored last year (including playoffs). you will see savard in some of clips but you will also notice that he really doesnt have nearly as much to do with the goals as people are trying to make it seem.
Almost all of the goals are scored because Kessel has an awesome shot and is able to get himself into prime scoring areas.
Again, i dont want to totally discredit Savards effect, because obviously he is an elite passer, but Kessel can score goals with or without an elite passer. All he needs is someone who is decent playing with him. If Kessel relied on his linemates to do everything for him so much, he would not have been drafted as high as he was.
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Guest9494
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Guest3331
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Posted - 11/07/2009 : 23:25:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
I found the clip http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip231334#clip231334
kinda crazy actually how Kessel is dependent on Savard
so according to your logic kessel and heatley depended solely on spezza and savard and now that theyre on san jose and toronto wont score at all? gimme a break yes they obviously scored more with some of the best playmakers in the game but who wouldnt? |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 07:15:52
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Wow there are some real intelligent comments on here. Also alot of common sense is being used.
What I need to know to process this information is, how is it that Savard made Kessel shoot the puck into the net?
Savard must therefor be the best player ever because not only can he get Kessel to an open area and he can pass the puck to an open man, but amazingly he can make them shoot it. Not only shoot it but actually score the goal. Kessel clearly must have had nothing to do with scoring any of his goals. Or is it only the 47% of the goals that Savard was the setup man? That is an amazing ability. How come all GMs are not going after Savard and giving him ridiculous amounts of money given is super special skills.
Think about what you say before opening your yap, Savard will continue to be an elite playmaker no matter who he has beside him. He did it junior in Oshawa, he did it Atlanta, now he is doing it Boston.
Kessel will remain a scorer, its just too bad no one except Savard can pass the puck!
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Guest8939
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Posted - 11/08/2009 : 08:00:11
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I quote:
Originally posted by Guest3331
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9494
I found the clip http://watch.tsn.ca/nhl/clip231334#clip231334
kinda crazy actually how Kessel is dependent on Savard
so according to your logic kessel and heatley depended solely on spezza and savard and now that theyre on san jose and toronto wont score at all? gimme a break yes they obviously scored more with some of the best playmakers in the game but who wouldnt?
I dont think anyone is saying kessel cant score or heatley cant score but hockey is a team game. And discounting savard and spezza in their contributions is a mistake.
You put your players in the best position to score and anyone who thinks assists doesnt matter hasnt watched or played the game.Bernie nichols, Tomas sandstom etc scored a ton of goals with gretzky they never came close to the same numbers to again without him.. Same with some of the players who played with oates.Brett hull is a natural scorer but i believe (correct me if im wrong ) he had his best years with oates.
You cant compare savard to who Stajan! And I beleive heatly is playing with thornton. And spezza numbers are down ie team game.
Its fine sticking up for you team (fan is short for fanatic) but try to be realistic. You cant judge Kessel on his first 20 games min. It will take him time to get acclimated with his teamates.
Kessel should make his centre better but with the centers the leafs have I cant see them improving his numbers. Face it they are no savard and I beelive a number of teams will throw a lot of money at savard including the Leafs. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 08:29:23
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I think Kessel's looked good, but I think this last post has a ton a validity. You can look through the ages and see that when a set up man and a scorer are split up, both numbers go down. Some not as much as other, but it still happens.
Even Gretzky's numbers dropped when he didn't have Kurri on the wing anymore!!! Hull never came close to his numbers after he left Adam Oates. Look at Jagr with Lemieux compared to without him.
Kessel still has the skills to score goals in piles, but not as many as he could have if he had a great set up many on his wing.
Don't fret Leaf Fans, Savard is a UFA this coming July. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 14:41:06
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Savrd's a free agent this July?!? Did not know that . . . interesting indeed. I do think Boston would try to keep him though, possibly depending on his performance this year/playoffs.
I am not worrying yet about Kessel fitting in with his linemates . . . it is rare indeed that there is some magical, instant fit, but regardless - chemistry is a bit more important that overall superstar linemates, I feel. There are countless examples of top star players being put together with other superstars, and it just doesn't click. Someone mentioned Hull and Oates? How about Hull and Gretzky?
And last game, Stajan didn't play with Kessel - Blake and Mitchell did, if I remember correctly. And I think we will see lots of other different combos from the coach . . . and hopefully, something will click at some point.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 17:21:07
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I have to admit that Kessel has looked good in his first two games back as a Leaf.
Although an Ottawa Senators fan, I have no problem with seeing other teams and players do well, as I'm a fan of the game more than anything. so hopefully Kessel continues to do well. Looks good on him. :)
Irvine |
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Guest5026
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Posted - 11/08/2009 : 22:02:30
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| yeah the bruins are doing awesome this year without kessel. hahahahahahaha |
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Guest6705
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Posted - 11/09/2009 : 04:13:05
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| Leafs are what we thought they would be....horrible! |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 07:23:42
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Leafs performance in Kessel's first 12 games, my prediction:
6 wins, 4 losses, 2 OTL/SO losses
First three games: 2 wins, 1 OTL
Looking good so far! Coming up this week is one weakish team (Minny) and two real tough ones (Chicago and Calgary). If the Leafs can get a win, and push one of the other two games into O/T, then I will consider it a very successful week!
The main thing is, with Gustavsson in net and the defence playing better, the goals against is greatly lowered - our main problem, really. And with a couple more wins, in a row, it has started to build a tiny bit of confidence hopefully.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Open_Ice
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 12:37:04
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quote:
so according to your logic kessel and heatley depended solely on spezza and savard and now that theyre on san jose and toronto wont score at all? gimme a break yes they obviously scored more with some of the best playmakers in the game but who wouldnt?
Heatley is now playing with Thornton and Kessel is now playing with Stajan/Mitchell ...
There's going to be a hit to his production. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 15:20:25
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Who needs Savard when you have Kaberle??? hehe just kidding, but he does help on the PP. all right seriously, Kessel is playing good so far, the Leafs are better then in October, but to keep on winning it's not all because of Kessel it's a team work and everybody needs to contribute. Defense needs to be more consistent, they still need to improve the pk, They have to cut on the stupid penalties, and Gustavsson still has to prove to be a solid number one goalie. All this has to happen before we can really point at Kessel.
Also I believe Kessel production will drop because he's not playing with Savard, but I also believe he hasn't hit is prime yet.
And somebody said something about Savard having the ability of passing the puck, get the man open, make him shoot and make him score (sarcasticly of course) Well didn't Kessel did just that on the Mitchell goal last saturday against Detroit??? hehehe.... |
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Guest9494
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Posted - 11/09/2009 : 20:39:03
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| lol leafs81 amazing comment pure snipe skills showned by kessel on his first of the year hehe im surprized no one had uploaded the clip yet |
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Gusteroni
Rookie
Canada
225 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 12:24:45
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I'm an optimist and I love my Leafs  . I do think things are starting to come around though. It is like the team was just waiting to start the season until Kessel came in. I would say we could realistically get 12 of the next 24 points (from tonight vs Carolina to Dec. 3 against Columbus), not many points I know and they could do even better but their potential really has not been seen yet...and I do mean yet. If Kessel is going to be a superstar in this league in this day and age he has to become a player that can adapt to anything and anybody he is playing with and he is beginning to show that already playing in the hockey mecca of the world.
"There are only two seasons in Canada...hockey season and not hockey season." |
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Guest4271
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Posted - 11/10/2009 : 16:05:54
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| Im a big bruin fan, and watched 73 of their games last year. Thank GOD for centrer ice. I can tell you that while kessel certainlly played well and for the most part with savard he still was great when krejci and bergeron were his centers. I think he is going to be a 30 - 40 goal scorer for many years to come, even if stajen is his set up guy. |
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Guest2120
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Posted - 11/11/2009 : 09:58:37
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I think that without Savard, Kessel's production will go down, but not nearly to the extent some people suggest.
I don't think this drop in production will be well represented in this year's stats though. Let's face it, Kessel is by far the best weapon on a team without much offensive talent. He is going to get all the ice time he wants, all the PP time he needs and he's going to be encouraged to shoot the puck.
I expect his numbers will look a lot more like Jokinen in Florida. Or if you want a player that hits closer to home, Blake on the Isle. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/22/2009 : 13:15:35
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What a weird last couple of games, to say the least.
Record so far with Kessel: 3 wins, 4 losses, 2 OT losses, 8 points.
Coming up this week to finish off Kessel's first 12 game with the Leafs: NYIsles, TB, Florida, all road games.
Looks like my 6 wins isn't going to happen, but I think the Leafs could squeeze out two wins. If they play defence like they did against Washington. And if they get some bounces. And if Kessel starts clicking with his linemates.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest2234
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Posted - 11/22/2009 : 18:06:20
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| looking at some of those kessel without savard comments prompted me to wonder why some other boston centers are having horrible starts without kessel ??....i think kessel means more to some of them than they mean to kessel....have only really watched this guy since he came to the leafs, he is greater than i thought he was....i think his puck release is quicker than hull`s and bossey`s was.....lookout he is only a youngster...great pick-up for the leafs.....look on the bright side leaf-fans, i`m sure whom-ever toronto would have drafted next season would end up being a BUST...least somebody already drafted a star for them ::))) |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 11/23/2009 : 08:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
What a weird last couple of games, to say the least.
Record so far with Kessel: 3 wins, 4 losses, 2 OT losses, 8 points.
Coming up this week to finish off Kessel's first 12 game with the Leafs: NYIsles, TB, Florida, all road games.
Looks like my 6 wins isn't going to happen, but I think the Leafs could squeeze out two wins. If they play defence like they did against Washington. And if they get some bounces. And if Kessel starts clicking with his linemates.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
and if toskala has a good game, and if the monster lets in less than 5 goals, and if komisarek does not put the puck in his own net, and if kessel scores 2-goals per game, and if the Panthers and Lightning do not show up, THEN the leafs may get these 2 wins. |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 09:44:27
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Sorry, that's one at home versus the Isles, then two road games at TB and Florida . . . with no Saturday game, strange.
I am guessing Toskala starts tonight against the Islanders, a much improved team. Maybe this will energise Blake and he can score his third goal of the season?
All jokes aside, solid play, like they had against Washington, and they win two out of three. Are they likely to have solid play in all three games? Not likely at all, the way the season's gone . . . but if I wasn't filled with ridiculous amounts of hope, I wouldn't be a Leaf fan in the first place!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 10:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2234
looking at some of those kessel without savard comments prompted me to wonder why some other boston centers are having horrible starts without kessel ??....i think kessel means more to some of them than they mean to kessel....have only really watched this guy since he came to the leafs, he is greater than i thought he was....i think his puck release is quicker than hull`s and bossey`s was.....lookout he is only a youngster...great pick-up for the leafs.....look on the bright side leaf-fans, i`m sure whom-ever toronto would have drafted next season would end up being a BUST...least somebody already drafted a star for them ::)))
This is something that I think should be pointed out.
The Leafs draft record is shoddy at best, they probably wouldnt have even drafted someone half as good as kessel with their picks given the teams history. Im thinking that Kessel will pan out for the leafs 10x better than someone they actually pick heh..... sad but probably true.
Also, with the leafs luck they would lose the draft lottery even if they finish dead last
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Matt_Roberts85
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
936 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 10:45:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7752
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
What a weird last couple of games, to say the least.
Record so far with Kessel: 3 wins, 4 losses, 2 OT losses, 8 points.
Coming up this week to finish off Kessel's first 12 game with the Leafs: NYIsles, TB, Florida, all road games.
Looks like my 6 wins isn't going to happen, but I think the Leafs could squeeze out two wins. If they play defence like they did against Washington. And if they get some bounces. And if Kessel starts clicking with his linemates.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
and if toskala has a good game, and if the monster lets in less than 5 goals, and if komisarek does not put the puck in his own net, and if kessel scores 2-goals per game, and if the Panthers and Lightning do not show up, THEN the leafs may get these 2 wins.
Toskala had one of his best games as a leaf saturday, komisarek isnt playing cause hes hurt so we dont have to worry about him scoring into his own net, kessel probably will score 2 goals and the panthers and lightning arent really that much better than toronto,. they are 2 totally beatable teams
i cant wait until the leafs play montreal again, prepare to be embarassed
RALLY CAPS BABY!!!1 Helmets on backwards!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "M" and an "E". |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2009 : 11:25:03
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haha the backwards buckets were hilarious
AS for the leafs drafting histroy its awful but we have a guy with a much stronger resume than the previous idiots.
Burke:
Chris Pronger
The Sedins
Bobby Ryan
RJ Umberger
Kevin Bieksa
John Ferguson Jr:
Traded them all away nothing to examine, o h pardon me Jiri Tlusty
Pat Quinn:
Pretty bad when you're best pick is Nic Antropov
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
Edited by - Tiller33 on 11/23/2009 11:31:03 |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 11/24/2009 : 07:26:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
haha the backwards buckets were hilarious
AS for the leafs drafting histroy its awful but we have a guy with a much stronger resume than the previous idiots.
Burke:
Chris Pronger
The Sedins
Bobby Ryan
RJ Umberger
Kevin Bieksa
John Ferguson Jr:
Traded them all away nothing to examine, o h pardon me Jiri Tlusty
Pat Quinn:
Pretty bad when you're best pick is Nic Antropov
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
Antropov - 20 points in 20 games so far, +10 rating.
He's a decent player that can help any team - maybe the probelm was the leafs' system, not him?
Oh wait... they don't have a system....
What they have is a strategy:
bring over as many Ducks players and management as possible... |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 07:45:47
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I could have 20 pts playing on a line with kovalchuck
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Guest7752
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Posted - 11/24/2009 : 08:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
I could have 20 pts playing on a line with kovalchuck
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
exactly - maybe similar to Kessel playing with Savard??
Also, look at his short stint with the Rangers:
13 points in 18 season games, AND fresh after joining a new organization.
Antropov was therefore playing on a crap team.
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Guest7752
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Posted - 11/24/2009 : 08:21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7752
quote:
Originally posted by Tiller33
I could have 20 pts playing on a line with kovalchuck
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem
exactly - maybe similar to Kessel playing with Savard??
Also, look at his short stint with the Rangers:
13 points in 18 season games, AND fresh after joining a new organization.
Antropov was therefore playing on a crap team when he was with the leafs...
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 08:40:03
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You high slappy? Kessel has 9 pts in ten games while carrying Matt stajan on his back so the Marc Savrd line doesn't play here. As for Antropov ya he was playing with a crap team one of which he was a part of and couldn't make better definately the sign of a good player. Kessel is on an even worse team statisticly and is excelling.
There's a lot of dirty old occ's around thats the problem |
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Open_Ice
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 10:22:39
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Yes, Kessel is playing very well with the linemates he has... however, he is playing a full 4:30+ more per game than last year and has 58 shots in just 10 games!
He is being handed every opportunity in the world and is under a point per game and yet everybody thinks this is the best case scenario and that is probably true.
I can't believe the situation he is in right now and really hope (for both his sake and my own) that he can keep it up or else I can see leafs fans talking about this trade for the rest of my life...  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 10:37:27
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Here's the things with Kessel. Some will always like the deal, others will hate it and it's completely subjective. The picks are gone now and it will be impossible to say if the Leafs would have picked the same players with the pick as Boston will.
For example, the Oilers traded Marty Reasoner and a 1st round pick to Boston a few seasons back for Sergei Samsonov. The Oilers had short term success as they made the 7th game of the Cup Final and Samsonov contributed with 15 points. Boston picked Milan Lucic with that 1st round pick. Good deal??? Not sure. Would the Oilers have even picked Lucic?? Not sure.
One thing is undeniable, the Leafs have not only produced more but have looked better and have higher point totals in the games since Kessel came.
He's earning my respect, one shift at a time. That's not an easy task for any Leaf player. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 11/24/2009 10:39:16 |
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Leafs - Performance with Kessel 
