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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2007 : 08:24:03
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A couple of you have raised this in other topics and I figured I'd create one to open it up to the entire forum. Do you think Marcel Dionne is underrated? To what extent?
His Stats:
Goals: 731 (4th)
Assists: 1040 (9th)
Points: 1771 (5th)
To do such a thing while spending most of his career with no support is impressive. Granted, a lot of his points came in the stat inflated 1980's. But he often gets overlooked when it comes to the all-time greats. I think he is deserved of top 10 status, and I'm sure there are others that agree with me.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 09:25:48
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Great topic.
Dionne is completely underrated. Had he stuck it out with Detroit I think you would have seen more respect for him as he would have received much more attention in that hockey market. LA was a blackhole back then.
He was short but by no means was he small. Very thick guy. Very strong and very fast. He wasn't overly physical but he certainly didn't shy away from it either. He wasn't blessed with a talented team around him. He did have Simmer and Taylor but the rest of the team was pretty weak.
The most common knock against him is that he didn't produce in the playoffs. Less than a point per game. I find it really hard to hold this against him though. It is odd though that he drops from his regular season output. He is 5th all time for points per game at 1.31. To do that with the teams he was on is impressive.
I honestly believe had Dionne played for the Canadiens he would be regarded as a top ten all time and ahead of Lafleur.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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PuckNuts
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2414 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 14:05:16
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Dionne was way under rated, I see him in the top ten of all time no problem. He never had a very good supprting cast on either Detroit or LA.
Just think Lafleur was drafted ahead of Dionne in the 1971 draft. Lafleur had a Point Per Game Average of 1.2 with some incredible Montreal teams, while Dionne had no one, and had a 1.31 PPGA.
Put Dionne in Montreal, and see what would have happened...
Dionne had 928 points in the 70's, and 843 points in the 80's...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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Guest7154
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Posted - 06/04/2007 : 14:37:40
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quote:
Originally posted by PuckNuts
Dionne was way under rated, I see him in the top ten of all time no problem. He never had a very good supprting cast on either Detroit or LA.
Just think Lafleur was drafted ahead of Dionne in the 1971 draft. Lafleur had a Point Per Game Average of 1.2 with some incredible Montreal teams, while Dionne had no one, and had a 1.31 PPGA.
Put Dionne in Montreal, and see what would have happened...
Dionne had 928 points in the 70's, and 843 points in the 80's...
I don't necessarily agree with everything I say.
- - Marshall McLuhan
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 15:08:10
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Yes, Marcel Dionne was underrated. I think most people rate sucess with major trophies, and since Dionne had not one a Cup he was labled an underrated player.
But the truth speaks for itself, he had noone to work with. To be in the top 10 in almost all major stats is a testiment to how great he was. Imagine if he could have been in LA's Gretzky era...
Second place is only first place of the losers. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 16:45:07
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I agree he is underrated. That part of the question is easy I think. On the Hockey News list I think, at the very least, he should have been above players such as Esposito, Coffey and Jagr.
But putting Dionne in the top ten is more difficult (particularly if you are talking about an all-time list I guess). He didn't make my top ten in the "Top 20 since 1970" thread, and as Willus said, making such a list is tough. I notice, for example, that Willus put Dionne before Trottier. My guess is that was probably a very tough choice for Willus. I'd prefer the more rounded, fiercer Trottier personally. I'd also prefer Neely in his prime as he was the ultimate power forward (by the way, these lists are always "peak value" lists for me - if I made a "career value" list, Dionne would of course get the edge over Neely).
Also, as mentioned in some of my earliest posts on the "greatest ever" thread, I favor defensemen a bit when faced with these greatest ever questions, so again, Dionne gets bumped down a bit on my list to make room for Potvin, Bourque, Park and Robinson.
Also, personally, I favor Lafleur, again based on peak value. Nothing against Dionne, but even when imagining him on that Habs team, I have trouble picturing him topping Lafleur’s peak value. Remember, that is an extremely high standard though. Also, remember, I am a Bruins fan! As said elsewhere, we are all affected by our own personal viewing experiences. 1979 - Game 7 - Habs-Bruins - Guy left an impression!
But none of this is to knock Marcel who was close to Lafleur in my opinion. Even the "not great in the playoffs" thing isn't entirely accurate, as in '77 he had a solid playoffs with good point production. If the team would have had a little more talent, and therefore a little more success, I'm sure he would have had playoff stats at least as impressive as a guy like Sittler for example. And that may be a telling comparison. Let's face it, the Toronto teams of the '70s can't be considered great - some were good but generally they were average, and yet even those Leafs teams were significantly better than any of the teams Dionne was on in the 70s. Simmer and Taylor didn't arrive til very late in the 70s I believe. And even once those guys arrived, the Kings really weren't all that good a team. They had no depth, so in the playoffs opponents could key on the big line.
Anyway, overall, I say Marcel Dionne was fantastic and hope that people do read up more about him. |
Edited by - andyhack on 06/04/2007 16:55:16 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 18:37:02
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Dionne ahead of Coffey?? Not sure about that one, but I won't argue it. Many could say that Coffey had great players with him always and that he was far from a defensive power. So no need to open up that can of worms again.
However I think you answered why Dionne was not and should not be ahead of Esposito or Jagr. It's about the Playoffs and the Cups. In a 19 year career, Dionne had but 44 playoff games and a point a game. No Cups. Not even a sniff of one. Esposito had 160 playoff games in 19 years and was over a point a game, Jagr has 159 playoff games in 17 years so far and is also a point a game playoff guy. Both have Cups. So if you want to compare them, all have similar regular season stats. Dionne's playoff stats don't compare. Neither do Cup appearances or Cup wins. Can you reasonably put Dionne ahead of two guys with reasonably same numbers but less Cups and Playoffs?? Also, I don't recall Dionne being a hugely better defensive player than either of those guys. Ok, better than Jagr, who am I kidding?
Looks like the list agrees with that. I could see him being top ten with more playoffs appearances and a Cup or two.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 20:24:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Dionne ahead of Coffey?? Not sure about that one, but I won't argue it. Many could say that Coffey had great players with him always and that he was far from a defensive power. So no need to open up that can of worms again.
However I think you answered why Dionne was not and should not be ahead of Esposito or Jagr. It's about the Playoffs and the Cups. In a 19 year career, Dionne had but 44 playoff games and a point a game. No Cups. Not even a sniff of one. Esposito had 160 playoff games in 19 years and was over a point a game, Jagr has 159 playoff games in 17 years so far and is also a point a game playoff guy. Both have Cups. So if you want to compare them, all have similar regular season stats. Dionne's playoff stats don't compare. Neither do Cup appearances or Cup wins. Can you reasonably put Dionne ahead of two guys with reasonably same numbers but less Cups and Playoffs?? Also, I don't recall Dionne being a hugely better defensive player than either of those guys. Ok, better than Jagr, who am I kidding?
Looks like the list agrees with that. I could see him being top ten with more playoffs appearances and a Cup or two.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
Beansy
I think we are looking at the list differently. If the list was meant to be a measure of "career accomplishments", then I would agree that Dionne, unfortunately, runs into a big problem with the lack of playoff performances/stats on his resume.
But regardless of what that hockey news list was intended to be, I personally prefer the simple "who was a better hockey player at his peak value?" approach. With either approach though, with Marcel, to a certain degree you have to go the hypothetical route (which I know you don't like) and try to imagine how he would have done on better teams. And what I was trying to point out with Sittler, is that the hypothetical doesn't even have to be with a great team. Sittler got 74 points in 76 playoff games. That's pretty good, and Sittler was NOT on a team like the Habs, Isles or Oilers, or on a Cup winning team with a superstar such as Bobby Orr (like Espo) or Mario Lemieux (like Jagr). Moreover, Sittler, though a very good hockey player, was not as good as Dionne.
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Edited by - andyhack on 06/04/2007 20:35:28 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2007 : 21:47:07
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I'm not saying it's right, but it seems a player's historic value does go up with his name on the Cup.
And what is your definition of peak value? The way I look at it, Peak Value is what the player produced and accomplished in their most prolific years. If you look at their best 5 years respectively, Esposito takes both Dionne and Jagr. It's also interesting that Esposito's 5 best years were consecutive. Dionne and Jagr were not.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 06:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I'm not saying it's right, but it seems a player's historic value does go up with his name on the Cup.
And what is your definition of peak value? The way I look at it, Peak Value is what the player produced and accomplished in their most prolific years. If you look at their best 5 years respectively, Esposito takes both Dionne and Jagr. It's also interesting that Esposito's 5 best years were consecutive. Dionne and Jagr were not.
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I'd say you've got it right for peak value Beans. Their best 5 years should tell you what that player was capable of.
I'm like Hack(leton) (a little nod to your bruins there Andy) in that when I evaluate a player I put much more weight in their peak value as that to me shows what a player was able to do at their best.
You have to remember though that there are more than just points to consider when evaluating a player. Espo may have more points but that doesn't by any means mean he is the better player.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:06:33
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Oh, I hear ya Willus. It does take more than points. But do you recall Dionne being a better defensive player, more of a physical presence, or a better leader than Esposito in his prime??
I can concede that Dionne ahead of Jagr is reasonable. But I really can't see him ahead of Espo.
(By the way, I think I am somewhat bias towards Espo. Him calling on the Russians from the penalty box during the Summit Series made me love the game. But I don't think my bias makes my assessment a stretch.)
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane?? |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 07:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Oh, I hear ya Willus. It does take more than points. But do you recall Dionne being a better defensive player, more of a physical presence, or a better leader than Esposito in his prime??
I can concede that Dionne ahead of Jagr is reasonable. But I really can't see him ahead of Espo.
(By the way, I think I am somewhat bias towards Espo. Him calling on the Russians from the penalty box during the Summit Series made me love the game. But I don't think my bias makes my assessment a stretch.)
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I wouldn't say either player was strong defensively however Dionne was more skilled. He was a far superior skater to Espo and a better overall playmaker. Espo was and still is the King of the garbage goal. Don't get me wrong, he was skilled I just think Dionne was a little better. Espo benefited greatly from the best in the game being on his team. You have to give it to Esp o for being a great leader though.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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chooch
Top Prospect
Afghanistan
60 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 18:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Oh, I hear ya Willus. It does take more than points. But do you recall Dionne being a better defensive player, more of a physical presence, or a better leader than Esposito in his prime??
I can concede that Dionne ahead of Jagr is reasonable. But I really can't see him ahead of Espo.
(By the way, I think I am somewhat bias towards Espo. Him calling on the Russians from the penalty box during the Summit Series made me love the game. But I don't think my bias makes my assessment a stretch.)
I Love your Kids, IHC is the man, and The Oilers Rule. Does that make me insane??
I wouldn't say either player was strong defensively however Dionne was more skilled. He was a far superior skater to Espo and a better overall playmaker. Espo was and still is the King of the garbage goal. Don't get me wrong, he was skilled I just think Dionne was a little better. Espo benefited greatly from the best in the game being on his team. You have to give it to Esp o for being a great leader though.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
I guess we disagree on Dionne. Espo was a household name in Canada throughout the 70's and led Team Canada 72 without Orr. Also was on Team can 76. Dionne was MIA in 72,76,79 Challenge Cup and 81 and 84.
Dionne was s elfish 1 way little guy - reminded me of Theo Fleury. Never checked or backchecked.
You should watch G4 1977 finals. Or a Lafleur montage on youtube. dont see any montages of Dionne.
I am Ogopogo's bodyguard |
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Marcel 
