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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2340 Posts |
 Posted - 03/29/2010 : 10:49:40
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Poll Question:
Assuming Henrik Sedin wins the NHL's regular season scoring race in 2009/10, by how many points does he have to beat the next place player (all contenders are crushing him in the goal category) in order to win the Hart Trophy?
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 11:31:48
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You need another option - that Hank will not win the Hart no matter how he finishes in league scoring. I don't think Hank will win the Hart, he would have to be leading by more than, say, 40 points in order to be considered IMO. He's good, but he just has not meant enough to the Canucks success *on his own* to be considered, compared to other obvious candidates.
Of note, I believe that this will be one of the rare years where we see a goalie win it. Miller or Bryzgalov should take it. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:05:48
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nuxfan, i disagree. I think Henrik would prob have to win by 10+ but i don't think he's been any less valuable to the Canucks than Ovie has to the Caps. I outlined it on the other thread just how much closer they compare than most think. Luongo's had what many are calling an "off year" and Henrik's the one who's elevated his game. When Daniel was out, he not only scored at a ppg clip, he scored (goals) more to pick up the slack.
If you take the award as it's worded (most valuable to their team), i think he gets it over Ovie, the numbers don't lie! However, i think Ovie wins it again this year and i don't see a goalie getting a nomination. There are far too many eastern votes out there who rarely see Henrik play! |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 12:25:10
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| The biggest issue for Sedin is that he plays in the West and doesnt get the exposure that Crosby or Ovie get making it harder for him to garner the votes needed to win. |
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
318 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 13:24:28
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Voting for the Hart is way too polarized by the volume of writers in the east. As Beans said in the other thread Henrik's got really long odds to beat Ovie and Sid.
For the purposes of this poll, I voted 10+ but I think it would have to be closer to 20+ to make his case.
Also I personally think the league MVP is Miller. But again, not likely to happen for a goalie either.
The arena wall in chicago should be credited with a goal. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 13:37:27
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Miller?? I just don't understand all the love??? I mean this is not a team with pylons. They are on pace to have 6 different 20+ goal scorers as well as 3+60 points gettings. Sure, not a single PPG players in the mix, but so what.
Buffalo is in the top 10 in defense AND offense. Miller has zero hand in that team being solid offensively.
Again, this is not '98 when the Sabres had only 2-40+ point players and the highest being 46. This team is balanced through their forward lines and depend as much on offense to win game as they do defense.
Let's not forget that Tyler Myers is a stud and although no huge names, their defensive core is significantly better than the sum of their parts.
Miller is a standout goalie who will more than likely win the Vezina, but we are talking about the Hart here.........
To the point at hand Sedin has to win by 10ish to get a sniff, and although the voting is supposidly done before the playoffs, Vancouver has to do well in the post season with him as a catalyst for him to get a sniff. As stated and repeated, the East is obviously the beast as the writers are mostly from the east coast. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 13:43:57
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quote:
nuxfan, i disagree. I think Henrik would prob have to win by 10+ but i don't think he's been any less valuable to the Canucks than Ovie has to the Caps.
I agree that Hank and Ovie have been comparable in their relative worth to their teams this year. I don't think that either have been worth enough to win the Hart. Both have picked up some slack when other players have been out for long durations, and both have been mostly-consistent producers this year. However, both benefit from a very strong supporting cast on their teams, would they be able to do what they do if they didn't have the other players around them? OV maybe, but I don't think Hank would. When it gets down to it, both have elevated their games to take already very good teams a little further.
quote:
If you take the award as it's worded (most valuable to their team), i think he gets it over Ovie, the numbers don't lie! However, i think Ovie wins it again this year and i don't see a goalie getting a nomination. There are far too many eastern votes out there who rarely see Henrik play!
The eastern angle you might have a case with - certainly that bias could play into things, but thats hard to predict.
If I take the award as its worded, then I believe it must go to Bryzgalov, with honorable mention to Miller. Both of them have taken very mediocre teams much further than they should have, and done it pretty much all on their own.
Quite simply, Phoenix has no business being where they are this year, and would not be without the play of Bryzgalov. Phoenix's highest scoring player (not including Wolski who they just got) is Doan at 53 points, and only 2 players have scored more than 20 goals (Stempniak and Vrbata, again not including Wolski). Yet, they have 100 points so far this year and are sitting 4th in the conference, and have a real shot at finishing top 3. You don't get 100 points with that little scoring without remarkable goaltending. Without Bryz having this year, Phoenix is in the bottom 10 of the conference.
Miller - same sort of story, although certainly from the numbers has a better supporting cast and more balanced scoring in front of him. However, he too has taken a team that was not in the playoff prediction at the start of the year and put them solidly in 4th right now, again with a chance of finishing top 3.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 14:49:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Miller?? I just don't understand all the love??? I mean this is not a team with pylons. They are on pace to have 6 different 20+ goal scorers as well as 3+60 points gettings. Sure, not a single PPG players in the mix, but so what.
I agree completely here and i think if a goalie were to win, or even be nominated, it should be Bryzgalov. I still think the Olympics are weighing too much on those who have the love for Miller. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 14:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex116
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Miller?? I just don't understand all the love??? I mean this is not a team with pylons. They are on pace to have 6 different 20+ goal scorers as well as 3+60 points gettings. Sure, not a single PPG players in the mix, but so what.
I agree completely here and i think if a goalie were to win, or even be nominated, it should be Bryzgalov. I still think the Olympics are weighing too much on those who have the love for Miller.
In the NHL this season, no goalie has been as important to their team than Thomas Vokoun. Take him off the FLA team and I am convinced they are fighting Edmonton in the basement. Unfortunately, FLA is also not in a playoff spot so that means no Hart for anyone. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2010 : 15:29:47
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I agree about Vokoun being important to FLA, but the fact that Florida is out of the playoffs really negates his shot at the Hart trophy. PHX has about as much to work with as FLA does in the skill department, and is contending for the conference title.
How can you overlook Bryzgalov's worth to that team? |
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 08:03:01
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I actually don't understand all the hate towards Miller, Beans. And Bryzgalov does not have a "no-name" defence either.
Bryzgalov's D
Adrian Aucoin (8g 20a, plays big/tough)
Keith Yandle (12g, 25a, +17 breakout year for big young kid)
Ed Jovonavski (10g, 23a, still plays big and tough even at this age)
Sami Lepisto (1g 9a, +12 sandpaper guy who plays resopnsible D)
Zbynek Michalek (3g, 12a, +5, a quiet but damn good 5th guy)
Jim Vandermeer (4g, 8a, +3 "tough guy" who can actually play)
plus pick-ups
Mathieu Schneider, and Derek Morris - old warriors with skills
These guys are all big, all play a tight system, and they help BIG TIME in having Phoenix have the lowest goals against in the West.
Funny thing, as a team, Buffalo has almost the identical goals against, and yet Miller's GAA is 2.21 as opposed to Bryzgalov's 2.28 . . . and even funnier still, both teams have a leading goal scorer with the unimpressive total of 23. Let's have a look then at Miller's D and see how much more impressive it is than Phoenix's, shall we?
Tyler Myers - (11g, 34a, +13 huge rookie kid who has come out of nowhere to be the best defenceman on this team, and a shoo-in for Calder I'd wager. He's been a miracle, for sure . . . and he's only 19)
Henrik Tallinder (3g, 15a, +12, big sandpapery guy . . . is this your 2nd man on a defensive depth chart of a playoff team? He is here!)
Toni Lydman (3g, 15a, +11 another sandpaper guy, maybe he is your #2?)
Craig Rivet (1g, 14a, -7, sort of a tough guy with some offence, definitely not there for tight defence)
Steve Montador (4g, 15a, -1, um . . . ok, just . . . ok)
Andrej Sekera (4g, 6a, +1, getting good minutes now)
You get the picture. We have a young stud with a very bright future surrounded by mediocrity. When Tallinder is getting the second most minutes, it tells you something, folks . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest7886
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Posted - 03/30/2010 : 08:34:15
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| I don't really think Sedin will get much consideration. Ovi's point total is on par, yet he has way more goals and his +/- is unreal... |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 08:40:47
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I apologise for the last post as this is in Henrik Sedin's question . . . but I really feel that with two very strong goalie candidates that could both easily be nominated (Miller and Bryzgalov) and with the two premier players of our game playing great and in the top three in points and top two in goals (Ovechkin and Crosby), that there is absolutely no WAY Henrik squeezes into a nomination for Hart.
And I really throw out the supposed "Eastern Bias" crap . . . the only bias there is is STAR bias and big market team bias - and that's why a guy like Henrik Sedin and Bryzgalov might get short shrift.
If there was such a western bias, how did Datsyuk get nominated last year? Iginla the year before? Luongo the year before that? That's all during the time of Crosby and Ovechkin, btw. Before that, it was Kipprusoff and Thornton in 2006, Iginla in '04, Forsberg and Naslund in '03 . . . you get my drift. It's for the best player, and usually, the best man really does win.
If anyone gets overlooked, it's usually because they haven't the pedigree or big market exposure, IMHO.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 08:56:13
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Slozo, i don't think the "eastern bias" is so much for nominations really. The eastern voters obviously see the stats, they just don't see the guys play as much. I agree that most of the time, the right guy wins. Well, maybe not so much as the way the award is worded (most valuable to their team) but as far as we've become accustomed i guess? Where i think the bias comes into play is in a close race. If it were to come down to Sedin and Ovie, Ovie would win and it's likely the eastern bias would play a role. These two guys could have identical stats, identical seasons, etc and Ovie would prob win because more voters see him more often and would therefore appreciate his skills and accomplishments more.
I'm not for a second here saying i think Sedin deserves it. If i went by the actual wording, i'd say it's Bryzgalov's or Millers, unfortunately it takes a very special year by a goalie to get this award. The only thing they have going for them is that the top scorers are just over 100 pts and not in the 120-130 range whereby the skaters would dominate clearly. I still don't see a goalie being nominated and if so, just one. And, i can't see Henrik not being on the ballot. That will actually surprise me quite a bit considering the season he's had.
Again, not saying he SHOULD win it, but there's an argument to support him if he did.
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4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 09:26:19
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What you are missing in your analysis, Alex116, is actual close races that went to the western player - Thornton in 05/06 (over Kipper and Jagr), and Forsberg (in 02/03 over Brodeur and Naslund).
Where was the western bias then, eh? In both cases, you had two out of three players nominated from the western conference, and the guy who probably should have won did. Period!
When Theodore won over Iginla, the closest vote ever, it deserved to be very close . . . and there is nothing to point to an eastern bias there as much as a "Montreal marketing machine" bias.
Like I said before, the bias, if any, is against goalies (who should almost always win the Hart based on Most Valuable to the team), against defencemen, and maybe way behind that for the bigger name.
Miller is very well known now, even in Buffalo, after his Olympic tournament where he won the silver. Bryzgalov has been stuck in the desert of Phoenix and didn't even start for his Olympic team! Plus, one can imagine the marketing power coming from Phoenix . . . (crickets chirping) . . .
Ovechkin is the face of the NHL. MVP last two years, and perhaps the best player to ever come from Russia and he should be one of the best for many years to come.
Crosy is Canada's marketing baby, and he is the face of the NHL as well, and we all remember his awards and cup win.
Henrik Sedin plays for a team where he would probably come second in voting for his own team MVP to Luongo, has a twin brother who he plays with who has very similar stats, and has never won a scoring race or any trophy and has only been a first line player for a couple of years.
OF COURSE Henrik will get short shrift, like it or not.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 10:13:52
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quote:
Henrik Sedin plays for a team where he would probably come second in voting for his own team MVP to Luongo, has a twin brother who he plays with who has very similar stats, and has never won a scoring race or any trophy and has only been a first line player for a couple of years.
I would have to disagree there slozo. I think there is widespread belief in Vancouver that Hank is our team MVP this year. Luongo has not been his best when he has to be (on more than one occasion), and Hank proved that he was not joined at the hip to Daniel in the early part of the season, and really came into his own this year. He has been a different kind of player and a difference maker every night (with his brother and without), and has made those that play with him not named Daniel better. Team MVP for sure.
League MVP, no. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 10:14:05
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Slozo, why so is it then that western teams always seem to be the ones to send tapes of their potential award winners in an effort to showcase them to those who don't see them enough?
As to some of your other points.....
*Because Bryzgalov didn't start for his Olympic team means he shouldn't be considered? Hogwash! Does that mean Mike Green won't get a nomination for the Norris?
*Ovechkin is the "face of the NHL" and "perhaps the best player to have come from Russia...." and this means he's an automatic? For how long then? What if he were having an off year, would he still be nominated? You make it seem like he's a shoo-in regardless of his play. (again, i've picked him to win it so don't think i'm saying he's not deserving THIS YEAR)
*Crosby is the "marketing baby" of Canada and he's won awards and a cup? Uh, so what? This means he's automatic as well for the Hart? Again, is this gonna be every year like Ovie?
On to Henrik......MOST years, yes, he'd be second (maybe lower) to Luongo in team MVP voting. That's not even debatable, moreso a fact. Know what else is a fact, THIS SEASON, he's the Canucks MVP and a candidate for the Hart. I agree the twin brother thing could hurt his chances but this year, it almost helps. His performance without his brother should only strengthen his chance with voters. The fact he's never won a scoring race or a major award should mean nothing. Is there a stipulation that you need to have one of these before you get the Hart? Pretty sure there's not. Maybe we could ask Marty St. Louis? And the idea that he's only been a first liner for a couple years is an even bigger joke! I really don't think that's gonna come into play in a voters mind!
Again, in case you missed it, i'm not here saying Sedin "SHOULD" win it, i'm just saying that there's enough of an argument to have him in the conversation. Don't believe me? Here, straight outta Toronto of all places, this outlines why Sedin should be nominated if nothing else:http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hockey/2010/03/23/13328116-qmi.html
Nothing's a given, especially with a couple of goalies having very good years, but i'm betting Henrik, unless we see a complete collapse over the last couple weeks, will be in Vegas to shake Ovie's hand when the Alex collects his Hart trophy for the 3rd year in a row.  |
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deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 11:10:46
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quote:
Slozo, why so is it then that western teams always seem to be the ones to send tapes of their potential award winners in an effort to showcase them to those who don't see them enough?
Every single team will send tapes to get their player nominated for various awards. Even the biggest market teams like Toronto, Montreal and the NY Rangers do. You didn't know this?
quote:
*Because Bryzgalov didn't start for his Olympic team means he shouldn't be considered? Hogwash! Does that mean Mike Green won't get a nomination for the Norris?
You put words in my mouth. I pointed out that Bryzgalov didn't get the exposure that Miller got, because he was a back-up for a team that didn't medal, whereas Miller got tonnes of exposure due to him being American and winning silver. And I guess you missed the part earlier on where I state that Bryzgalov deserves to be nominated (in other posts).
quote:
*Ovechkin is the "face of the NHL" and "perhaps the best player to have come from Russia...." and this means he's an automatic? For how long then? What if he were having an off year, would he still be nominated? You make it seem like he's a shoo-in regardless of his play. (again, i've picked him to win it so don't think i'm saying he's not deserving THIS YEAR)
No, that does not mean he's an automatic . . . what's with you and jumping to conclusions? It simply means that with Ovechkin's huge star status and world wide exposure, and with the general consensus of his supreme talent, it gives him an ENORMOUS EDGE over the lesser stars having great years.
quote:
*Crosby is the "marketing baby" of Canada and he's won awards and a cup? Uh, so what? This means he's automatic as well for the Hart? Again, is this gonna be every year like Ovie?
Same for Crosby - gives him a lot more exposure to a lot more people, gives him a HUGE EDGE. Cripes, knock the chip off your shoulder.
See Alex, if you went back over some of my posts on Henrik Sedin, you'd realise that my opinion on his play and my opinion on who will and should get nominated are not all the same . . . but the huge chip on your shoulder is blinding your view of that fact.
I stated earlier that in my opinion both Bryzgalov and Miller should be nominated, along with Crosby third - that is based on my opinion of the true Most Valuable player to his team. I might actually vote for a three way tie, as they are all very close in my opinion.
Does that make me a Phoenix lover? A huge homer for Buffalo, or an American? Or do I just gush about Crosby so much I can't help but vote for him?
Give yer head a shake.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Guest1756
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Posted - 03/30/2010 : 11:22:39
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| I think another good 'automatic' situation will be to see if Lindstrom gets nomninated for the Norris. His name has been around that award for about a decade now and this is the first year IMO that I don't think he deserves a nomination (still a awesome Dman but not top three THIS YEAR) but I certainly don't think there would be a huge fuss if he did get nominated again because of his reputation |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 11:29:00
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I'm pretty confident that if Henrik won the race by 10 or more points he'd get the Hart. He'd be a serious contender at 5 points above but a no go in my opinion. Here is why....
Ovechkin has only played 65 games so far to Sedin's 75 and there is only a 1 point spread in the race. If Ovechkin had missed too many more games I think you could argue that his injuries were no longer an "asset" to his Hart candidacy and were in fact a "liability". But missing only ten games is not too bad and really shows your ability to take over. My point is that the voters will have to take this into account when comparing their stats, so I think that think Henrik would need 5 points just to put that argument to rest.
Then he'd need another 5 points to put the goals vs. assists comparison to bed. No matter how you spin it goals tend to be more valuable of a stat than assists. So even though they count as 1 point each, all other things being equal, the goal scorer will be the winner.
The last thing to consider is the positioning of the teams, Washington is in first in the league with 109 points to Vancouver's 3rd in the West. Edge goes to Ovechkin. Yes I know it's a team sport and this is an individual award but if humans are doing the calculations these things will always matter. It's the same if a team didn't make the playoffs, that player is not going to get serious consideration for the Hart. I know this is a bone of contention but it's reality.
One argument I would give to Sedin is that the rest of the hockey universe outside of Vancouver wasn't even sure if the Canucks would make the playoffs this year - with their bunch of no-name guys (aside from Luongo and the Sedins - who most thought were 80pt players at best) They missed the dance last year and on paper their team didn't look much better. Instead they destroyed their division with one half of the Swedish connection out of action for a large part of the first half, and a goalie who was off his game (still a great goalie though) and a defense core that has been riddled with injuries. Admittedly their role players have done their jobs and many have overachieved, but without Henrik playing like a man possessed they would not be in the position they are currently in, not by a long shot. Yes the same could be said for Ovechkin - remove him and the Caps would be in big trouble - but they were expected to be at the top of their division/conference this year, they have been building up to this point for years now...Vancouver, not so much. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 11:46:27
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| Oh and those of you arguing for Bryzgalov are spot on. 40 wins, 8 shut outs, 2.28 GAA and a .921 S%. On a team with no stars, that historically NEVER makes the playoffs, in a town that almost didn't have a team this year. Wow!! Seriously, WOW!!! Miller is close, but the Phoenix story is just too compelling for the writers to ignore. He may have single-handedly saved a franchise!!! Hat is off to head coach Dave Tippett as well. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 12:14:04
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Hey Slozo, the bias is based on time zone, not conference.
In the entire history of the Hart trophy, only 4 players (Forsberg, Sakic, Gretzky, and Messier) have won the Hart Trophy playing an entire season on a team West of the Central Time zone.
If you consider Thornton as another, even though he played 1/2 his Hart season in Boston, that makes 5 out of 51 players that have won the Hart played Central or East.
Now, there may not be a bias there. For about 20 of those 85 seasons there were few or no teams in the West. However, since 1967 there definately has been teams and great players in the West. That being said, there are more teams and therefore more players to choose from in the East. However, it's hard to argue that less than 1 out of 10 Hart winners are from the West. |
Edited by - Beans15 on 03/30/2010 12:16:56 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 21:01:57
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Slozo, easy boy, bad day or something? No need to freak out. personally i don't feel i have a chip on my shoulder and see no need for you to claim that as a result of you not properly wording your opinions. If you can't see that in what you wrote, then i guess i must have misunderstood your entire point? 
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Every single team will send tapes to get their player nominated for various awards. Even the biggest market teams like Toronto, Montreal and the NY Rangers do. You didn't know this?
Actually yes, well, i assumed they prob did, but what i was getting at was i'm pretty sure that it was the western teams which originally did this (back in the day) when they felt the need due to lack of exposure. I don't know this for certain but it's what i recall from years back.
quote:
You put words in my mouth. I pointed out that Bryzgalov didn't get the exposure that Miller got, because he was a back-up for a team that didn't medal, whereas Miller got tonnes of exposure due to him being American and winning silver. And I guess you missed the part earlier on where I state that Bryzgalov deserves to be nominated (in other posts).
My bad, i didn't read it as lack of exposure and if i read your other posts you speak of, i've failed to recall you saying Bryzgalov should be nominated. There are a lot of posts and i read many of them. I'm sorry, but i don't recall everyone's posts about every topic. I interpreted it that you were saying Miller would get the nod over Bryzgalov and one of your points was that he didn't start for his country and Miller did. I now understand your point, it's about the exposure. Wish you'd just said that?
quote:
No, that does not mean he's an automatic . . . what's with you and jumping to conclusions? It simply means that with Ovechkin's huge star status and world wide exposure, and with the general consensus of his supreme talent, it gives him an ENORMOUS EDGE over the lesser stars having great years
Same for Crosby - gives him a lot more exposure to a lot more people, gives him a HUGE EDGE. Cripes, knock the chip off your shoulder.
No offense, but perhaps if you'd explained what you were getting at a wee bit better it would have made a little more sense? No where in your original post do you mention anything about "world wide exposure" or "general consensus of his supreme talent" etc. Prior to the mention of Ovie and Crosby and even Bryzgalof, all you're talking about is the eastern bias (which for the record, you keep calling western bias). Sorry to say, but IMO, your attempt at getting your point across in this post of yours is rather poor.
quote:
See Alex, if you went back over some of my posts on Henrik Sedin, you'd realise that my opinion on his play and my opinion on who will and should get nominated are not all the same . . . but the huge chip on your shoulder is blinding your view of that fact.
Really, what's with your obsession with a "chip on my shoulder"? The point i've been trying to make the entire time is that there is an eastern bias. You disagree and your reasoning is because guys like Iginla and Datsyuk have been nominated and or won big awards in the pat. Whoopee! My eastern bias theory is cooked because of this? Did i say anywhere that there's a bias EVERY year and that a western player will NEVER win an award? I'm assuming you read the stats Beans threw out there. If you didn't, maybe you should.
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I stated earlier that in my opinion both Bryzgalov and Miller should be nominated, along with Crosby third - that is based on my opinion of the true Most Valuable player to his team. I might actually vote for a three way tie, as they are all very close in my opinion.
Does that make me a Phoenix lover? A huge homer for Buffalo, or an American? Or do I just gush about Crosby so much I can't help but vote for him?
Great, i like those nominations. They might not be the exact same as mine, but i don't have a problem with them. See, even with this chip on my shoulder you speak of, i can see around it enough to notice that the award isn't given out to "the most valuable player to his team" like it is worded! Maybe IF YOU, read some of my posts, you'd realize i've already mentioned this!
quote:
Give yer head a shake.
Wow, i must really have frustrated you to resort to a comment like that? |
Edited by - Alex116 on 03/30/2010 21:42:28 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 22:05:02
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leigh:
quote:
One argument I would give to Sedin is that the rest of the hockey universe outside of Vancouver wasn't even sure if the Canucks would make the playoffs this year - with their bunch of no-name guys (aside from Luongo and the Sedins - who most thought were 80pt players at best) They missed the dance last year and on paper their team didn't look much better.
The canucks didn't "miss the dance" last year, they lost in the second round to a very good Chicago team. I'm pretty sure that most in the hockey world thought that the canucks would at least make the playoffs, and there seemed to be an even split that the canucks and flames would be battling for the division title. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2010 : 22:45:19
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
leigh:
quote:
One argument I would give to Sedin is that the rest of the hockey universe outside of Vancouver wasn't even sure if the Canucks would make the playoffs this year - with their bunch of no-name guys (aside from Luongo and the Sedins - who most thought were 80pt players at best) They missed the dance last year and on paper their team didn't look much better.
The canucks didn't "miss the dance" last year, they lost in the second round to a very good Chicago team. I'm pretty sure that most in the hockey world thought that the canucks would at least make the playoffs, and there seemed to be an even split that the canucks and flames would be battling for the division title.
Sorry, got my years mixed up...they tend to run together at my age. Yes last year they were smoked 4-2 by Chicago in the second round, thanks for the reminder. It was 08, 06 and 05 that they missed - 3 out of the last five playoff seasons, you can understand why I got confused.
However at the beginning of this season there were major concerns that they didn't have the proven depth to take them to the playoffs, and in the first 30 games that fear was being realized. They certainly weren't pegged to win the division unless Luongo was a major stud. Turns out that Luongo was average (by his standards) and the rest of the team performed better and was deeper than projected. |
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Guest4813
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Posted - 03/31/2010 : 00:24:56
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
leigh:
quote:
One argument I would give to Sedin is that the rest of the hockey universe outside of Vancouver wasn't even sure if the Canucks would make the playoffs this year - with their bunch of no-name guys (aside from Luongo and the Sedins - who most thought were 80pt players at best) They missed the dance last year and on paper their team didn't look much better.
The canucks didn't "miss the dance" last year, they lost in the second round to a very good Chicago team. I'm pretty sure that most in the hockey world thought that the canucks would at least make the playoffs, and there seemed to be an even split that the canucks and flames would be battling for the division title.
Sorry, got my years mixed up...they tend to run together at my age. Yes last year they were smoked 4-2 by Chicago in the second round, thanks for the reminder. It was 08, 06 and 05 that they missed - 3 out of the last five playoff seasons, you can understand why I got confused.
More days running together I guess but no teams made the playoffs in 05, there wasn't a season, and before that they made the playoffs from 01-04. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 08:40:55
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quote:
Sorry, got my years mixed up...they tend to run together at my age. Yes last year they were smoked 4-2 by Chicago in the second round, thanks for the reminder. It was 08, 06 and 05 that they missed - 3 out of the last five playoff seasons, you can understand why I got confused.
yes, it can be confusing keeping up with all those different outcomes - of course, the flames are pretty easy and consistent, pick any year since 1990 and say "out in the first round" or "didn't qualify" and you get it right for all but one year.
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 08:57:02
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If you guys truly believe there is a western bias . . . throwing out stats about how many times a western player has won the Hart are meaningless.
The only reason this stat would have any meaning, is if you bring alongside it voting contests where a western player was excluded from the nominations or lost to an eastern player as a potential result of this bias. I actually pointed out two close contests where the western player beat out at least one eastern player . . . but besides the Theodore year he beat out Iggy (which I brought up), no one has given any specific examples of this supposed western bias.
Please, support your assertions with specific examples, Alex and the rest of you westerners - otherwise, it just sounds like a lot of hot air.
If I flip a penny 10 times, it may come up as heads 8 times . . . does that mean I automatically assume that the coin is weighted so that it lands heads more?
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 09:12:57
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Hey Slozo, you are talking about the probability of an event completely random event compared to a vote by people.
45 of 51 winners from the east is the simple fact that needs no qualification. This is not a pull a name out of a drum kind of system. Players are nominated and voted on by people. Most of those people are in the east.
I am not saying it's good or bad, right or wrong. But it would be like saying that there is no bias towards offensive players winning the Hart when it has happened the majority of the time.
I have a bit of a busy day at work, however I will dig in and find the history of the nominees, the number of teams and players from each area, and then show there is a clear line that significantly more eastern players have been nominated and awarded the Hart than those in the west. Even comparatively to the number of players from each area. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 10:19:17
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Beans - you utterly missed the point.
Having way more nominations and winners from the east may just indicate that, for whatever reason, the top three players in the league any given year were usually in the east.
Did Messier not deserve the Hart the year he won in New York, and who would have been the western player who was more deserving who you think was snubbed as a result of western bias? These are the kinds of examples I am looking for . . . because, if the right person won - or at least, the top three candidates were deservedly nominated - then your point is moot.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 10:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan
quote:
Sorry, got my years mixed up...they tend to run together at my age. Yes last year they were smoked 4-2 by Chicago in the second round, thanks for the reminder. It was 08, 06 and 05 that they missed - 3 out of the last five playoff seasons, you can understand why I got confused.
yes, it can be confusing keeping up with all those different outcomes - of course, the flames are pretty easy and consistent, pick any year since 1990 and say "out in the first round" or "didn't qualify" and you get it right for all but one year.
Haha! fair enough! I'm getting hammered on the boards today. My eager quick retort was once again done without full thought. I feel shame. 2 minutes in the box.
Ahhhh our beloved 2004 run! 10 years more recent than the Canucks 1994 run. Yes, 2004, the year the Flames won the cup in the 6th game...but the goal was called back and they lost in 7. But we still have 89.  |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 10:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by slozo
Beans - you utterly missed the point.
Having way more nominations and winners from the east may just indicate that, for whatever reason, the top three players in the league any given year were usually in the east.
Did Messier not deserve the Hart the year he won in New York, and who would have been the western player who was more deserving who you think was snubbed as a result of western bias? These are the kinds of examples I am looking for . . . because, if the right person won - or at least, the top three candidates were deservedly nominated - then your point is moot.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
I did not utterly miss the point. I utterly disagreed with your flipping a coin analogy as it is not comparable in the least.
Now, I agree with you if and when the winner is deserving. However, it's hard to appreciate, the complete lack of Western representation in any of the kind in the awards for 'best' (Selke, Norris, Hart, Vezina.)
I will do some homework when I get home on this and start a new thread, because this isn't really part of the Sedin for Hart thread any longer. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2010 : 11:26:39
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Slozo, unlike Beans, i can't be bothered to spend my time looking for examples. It's tough enough to find info on history of the major awards and who their nominees were that i don't wanna start researching stats and events from years past. I'm sorry, but i don't have any recollection of specific examples although i do recall the year Fedorov won, there was talk (around here of course) that Bure would have been a deserving winners as well. Can't even recall if he was even nominated? Either way, i'm not saying this is an example, i'd have to go back and look at stats if i were gonna say so.
Regardless, the topic of an EASTERN bias is something that's thrown around every year in the media, in interviews with players/team officials, etc and whether or not it exists or not is difficult to prove. I feel there is one and i don't think it's intentional in any way to slight the West. I feel it's just, as i've pointed out, the fact that the number of voters is greater in the east, they see the eastern players more and therefore if it were a debatable or close race, they'd prob vote for the guy they know more about. That's it, my opinion. You disagree, really not a big deal...... |
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ReyR
Top Prospect
13 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 09:49:57
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This is probably part of the reason why Henrik won't win and it's absolutely absurd. Scary thing is that this guy actually has a vote and say for the Hart trophy.
"Yes, he deserves to be included in the conversation. No, in my mind, he doesn't deserve to win it.
And the reason I will give is the same reason I stand behind the notion that Peter Forsberg is overrated – too many assists and not enough goals."
Article: http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/article/2010-04-01/why-henrik-sedin-wont-win-hart-trophy
It's not the fact that he says Henrik doesn't deserve to win it; it's the reason why. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 10:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ReyR
This is probably part of the reason why Henrik won't win and it's absolutely absurd. Scary thing is that this guy actually has a vote and say for the Hart trophy.
"Yes, he deserves to be included in the conversation. No, in my mind, he doesn't deserve to win it.
And the reason I will give is the same reason I stand behind the notion that Peter Forsberg is overrated – too many assists and not enough goals."
Article: http://www.sportingnews.com/nhl/article/2010-04-01/why-henrik-sedin-wont-win-hart-trophy
It's not the fact that he says Henrik doesn't deserve to win it; it's the reason why.
O and spinnerama assists are not as nice as goals? |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 14:39:08
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@ ReyR:
I have not opened your URL, but I would place my last dollar on a bet that Ken Campbell wrote the article you posted.
The reason I say this, (and I have honestly not opened it),
is that I read a similar article elsewhere from this guy, and it was complete and utter garbage. Ken Campbell is the worst sports writer going... I have read many of his articles and each one leaves me wondering how this guy has a job writing his junk.
Irvine/prez. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 15:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by irvine
@ ReyR:
I have not opened your URL, but I would place my last dollar on a bet that Ken Campbell wrote the article you posted.
The reason I say this, (and I have honestly not opened it),
is that I read a similar article elsewhere from this guy, and it was complete and utter garbage. Ken Campbell is the worst sports writer going... I have read many of his articles and each one leaves me wondering how this guy has a job writing his junk.
Irvine/prez.
LOL Irv! I don't have time to read it but openned it to see if you were correct......BINGO! Funny thing is, he was just interviewed locally here and the local radio guys, although showing respect for him, didn't agree with his points either! One in particular (David Pratt) was pretty animated and thinks Ovie shouldn't even be on the ballot and that it should be a race between Crosby, Miller and Sedin. Of course, he is talking about taking it as it's worded. His big argument is that the Caps are 7-2-1 without Ovie?
Anyway, gotta run but thought it was pretty funny you nailed the reporter without reading the article! Kudos.... |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2010 : 20:27:40
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Shortly after replying here, I actually found the post on another website... where I commented on it. And yeah, it was Campbell.
I can never understand that guy.
Irvine/prez. |
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Utemin
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
451 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2010 : 22:03:24
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I say Henrik just snatched it up a few games ago.  |
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Guest0965
( )
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Posted - 04/05/2010 : 03:41:07
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i dont think hank will win the hart because of sooo many eastern bias.
plain and simple.
watch and learn.
you'll all see what i mean. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2010 : 04:46:09
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I see by the pile-up of comments on this sports writer that most of you here think that assists are just as important as goals?
Count me out of that one too - I definitely think goals are more important than assists.
I know many of you will point out the assist during a deflection goal as being more important, and the pretty assist resulting in a tap-in as more important - and you'd probably be right a lot of the time. But the majority of goals IMHO are more important, and require more skill, in my opinion, than an assist, and frankly - the goal is what changes the score, not the assist. So yes, I definitely do place a greater value on the goal scorer as opposed to the pure assist guy.
That's not to say a pure assist guy can't be the MVP - I was totally on board when Forsberg won. Foppa was a dominating player who created the chances to score by holding on to the puck for an unimaginable amount of time while being forechecked by two or three players at a time before dishing off a pass to one of his open teammates . . . he was a great example of an assist guy that really did create something out of nothing a lot of the time.
But I don't see Henrik Sedin as that kind of player, and that's fine - he is a great finesse player with awesome skills, I will give him that. And, I certainly think he deserves to be nominated . . . whether it is alongside any two of Crosby, Ovechkin, Miller, or Bryzgalov. But I don't think he's the mvp this year, myself . . . I see Crosby, Miller, Bryzgalov as more valuable to their team. And knowing that it's not me voting and picking, you'd have to think that Ovechkin will also stand a good chance of getting nominated as well, considering his star power and numbers.
But to say that assists overall are as important as goals . . . this is not something I can agree with.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
Edited by - n/a on 04/05/2010 04:49:04 |
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Henrik Sedin and the Hart 
