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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
 Posted - 07/05/2010 : 13:58:31
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quote:
I know he's a RFA and not a UFA. I don't think I said that the Leafs should go and just sign him. If it sounded like that it was not what I meant. I was talking about a trade that would involve Kaberle. You acquire his rights with a trade and then you sign him.
I'm having trouble figuring out a deal between TOR and ANA where Ryan goes one way and Kaberle+others go the other way that is in any way fair to ANA. Perhaps if TOR were to throw in Schenn and Kahdri, or Shenn and Kulemin, perhaps that makes it better. Hard to say.
Ryan for Kaberle straight up is laughable. Yes, Bobby Ryan really is that good. |
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Porkchop73
PickupHockey Pro
640 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 14:02:02
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Pasty7[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Beans15[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Porkchop73[/i]
[br]Why all the argument over Kadris' size. He is 6'1" and 180 pds right now. When he gets into NHL shape he would likely hit 190 pds. Are u all saying this is a small centreman. I don't think so.
Kadri is a skilled puck handler and above average playmaker at the junior level. IMO a better player with a better attitude then the #1 overall this year, Taylor Hall. If he can put some muscle on and transfer his skill to NHL level then he will certainly be the centerman that TO needs. But who knows what will happen.
When did he gain 13 lbs??? Everywhere I can find he is listed at 167 lbs.
Even at 180, he is not undersized but still below average by 20 lbs.
And people, don't confuse what I am saying. I know he is skilled, I know he made a good shot at making the squad last year. Slozo, I agree that it will take a season or 2 to see if the size is going to be an isuse or not. All I am saying is that if I am a Leaf fan, I am not holding by breath about Kadri at all. He's still, at best, a 50-50 shot at being a decent everyday NHL player. Even less of a shot at being great.
Can i give you an example of what beans is talking About,, Benoit Pouliot a 4th over all pick and has never put on the weight and that could be a very good reason why he is not producing the way a player of his skill set could
Pasty
I can give a better example, Steven Stamkos. 6'1 and 169 pounds in rookie season. He goes on an NHL workout and gains 25 pounds of muscle and co wins the Rocket Richard trophy. Stammer is a pure scorer where as Kadri is more playmaker with a keen scoring sense.
Beans, Kadri is listed as 6'1" 177 pounds in the London Knights program and well as several websites. Just google it, I did and the first five i went into listed him as that.
He is most likely not the answer this year but he certainly would not be considered small by NHL terms if he puts on 20 pounds of muscle.
My point is a 6'1 177 pound player in junior is small, when they get put on an NHL fitness program and play in the NHL and gain 20 pounds of muscle needed to compete, they are not that small. |
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 14:43:21
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I can see both sides of the argument here.
6'1 (not terribly small), 177 Lbs (Pretty light/small), is generally a small NHL player.
However, with that being said, Kadri can still bulk up and compete fine with bigger NHL players. These guys may be smaller in stature, but we cant forget that they are muscle to begin with... generally and adding more muscle mass does not take a ton of time, just some extra work and training.
These guys have been working out and training for hockey most of their lives. So adding bulk is still tough, but it is generally quick. A single off-season, and plenty of bulk can be added. They have the metabolism to do so.
The height issue is the one they can't change. And, 6'1 isn't terribly small. He is capable of still bulking to the NHL level. 6'1, 195 - 200. Not bad.
Irvine/prez. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 15:48:31
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I agree that the Leafs doesn't have much that they would be willing to give in order to get a player of the status of Bobby Ryan. I didn't realize that he scored 66 goals in 2 seasons.
But weirdest thing have happened hehe. Last year I never thought they had anybody in the value of Phaneuf. But they got him while keeping Schenn, Kaberle, Kadri, Kessel and Gustavsson.
A fan can always dream I guess. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 16:15:40
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| Including last season Brian Burke picked up Kessel, Phaneuf, JS Gig, J.Gust, F.Beau, M.Kom, K.Vers, C.Arm in one way or another ( trade- free agency ).....Besides the two 1st rd draft picks, He Hasn`t given up Anything of Value ( good roster players ) ....NOTHING, you can`t name ONE player of any considerable value the leafs will surely miss, NO-ONE. While doing this he rid TO of over-paid hockey players who were under-acheiving and with ridiculous contracts...he has amazed me so far. I don`t listen to any comment which goes something like...Brian Burke can`t get............................ the Phaneuf trade blew my mind, all those rejects gone for a world class hockey player. Don`t put anything out of reach for this man, ( no i don`t think he is a god ), but he is one dam good general manager !!! Leafs fans can finally have some future to look forward to after 2 - 3 decades. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 17:04:08
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Wikipedia has Kadri at 186 lbs, the OHL has him at 177lbs, hockeydb has him at 167 lbs, nhl.com has him at 167 lbs, the Leafs Official Website has him at 167 lbs, CBSsports.com has him at 167 lbs, The Hockey News has him at has him at 167lbs, TSN.ca has him at 167 lbs.
I am thinking I trust the NHL endorsed and reputable sites like TSN, NHL, the Hockey News, and even the Leafs themselves.
And again, people missing the point. Even 177 is very small. 187 is still 15 lbs below the average. If you look at all of the Centre's in the NHL who played at least one game last season, the average size is 6'0 and 198 lbs.
More telling is that of the 109 NHL centres who played in more than 65 games, only 12 of them were less than 185 lbs and nearly 70% of those durable NHL centres were 195 lbs or bigger.
And the most telling stat of all, of the most productive centres last season, only 2 of the top 35 scorers were less than 185 lbs.
It must be a fluke that the best day to day centres in the NHL today are not 170 lbs players, right??
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Guest2743
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Posted - 07/05/2010 : 17:59:14
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| well I don't know if the Leafs miss him, but Nik Antropov put up some pretty decent numbers with Atlanta last year. Can't recall who the Leafs got in return. I believe the trade was with New York |
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redneck76ca
Rookie
186 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 18:39:41
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by The Duke[/i]
[br]Including last season Brian Burke picked up Kessel, Phaneuf, JS Gig, J.Gust, F.Beau, M.Kom, K.Vers, C.Arm in one way or another ( trade- free agency ).....Besides the two 1st rd draft picks, He Hasn`t given up Anything of Value ( good roster players ) ....NOTHING, you can`t name ONE player of any considerable value the leafs will surely miss, NO-ONE. While doing this he rid TO of over-paid hockey players who were under-acheiving and with ridiculous contracts...he has amazed me so far. I don`t listen to any comment which goes something like...Brian Burke can`t get............................ the Phaneuf trade blew my mind, all those rejects gone for a world class hockey player. Don`t put anything out of reach for this man, ( no i don`t think he is a god ), but he is one dam good general manager !!! Leafs fans can finally have some future to look forward to after 2 - 3 decades.
Iain White comes to mind. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 19:43:37
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quote:
Including last season Brian Burke picked up Kessel, Phaneuf, JS Gig, J.Gust, F.Beau, M.Kom, K.Vers, C.Arm in one way or another ( trade- free agency ).....Besides the two 1st rd draft picks, He Hasn`t given up Anything of Value ( good roster players ) ....NOTHING, you can`t name ONE player of any considerable value the leafs will surely miss, NO-ONE. While doing this he rid TO of over-paid hockey players who were under-acheiving and with ridiculous contracts...he has amazed me so far. I don`t listen to any comment which goes something like...Brian Burke can`t get............................ the Phaneuf trade blew my mind, all those rejects gone for a world class hockey player. Don`t put anything out of reach for this man, ( no i don`t think he is a god ), but he is one dam good general manager !!! Leafs fans can finally have some future to look forward to after 2 - 3 decades.
Well Duke, one could argue that the Leafs didn't have much value to give up 
Seriously though, trades happen for different reasons, and each side normally thinks they're making the right decision when they trade. Someone else's garbage is another man's gemstone, or something like that... take a look at the other side of some of your gems:
- JS Giguere - since winning the Stanley Cup, he's been mediocre at best. For the past 2 years his numbers have been going downhill big time, to the point where at 6M/season, he is hugely overpaid. Even after TOR got him, he only went 6-7 with 2.49GAA and .916 SV%. Say what you will about TO defense, but at that price he should be a difference maker. ANA traded him as a salary dump, as Hiller had taken over the #1 job the season before.
- Phaneuf - highly touted in junior, and a steller first couple of years in CGY, only to see slowly declining numbers. Rumoured to be a cancer in the locker room as well, petulant and spoiled - all at 7M/season. CGY got rid of him for a number of reasons. It remains to be seen whether or not he has a rebirth in TOR, or if he stays the same old same old next year.
- Monster - all he has proven is he is a capable backup. I'm still not sold on him being the future of goaltending in TOR.
- Versteeg - actually a pretty good pickup IMO, but they gave up a bit to get him too. I think he'll work out there.
quote:
He Hasn`t given up Anything of Value ( good roster players ) ....NOTHING
Ian White. Nik Anropov. Alex Ponikarovsky. Jason Blake (just because he wasn't getting it done in TO does not make him a value elsewhere). Soon-to-be Kaberle. I can't be bothered to hunt down other names, there are probably more. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 20:24:48
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Antropov, Poni, White, Hagman... all those guys were not of value. They are all really replacable hockey players. Sure it takes away some depth because they could play top six or top 4 on defense. But they are not irreplaceble.
When I think of a player of value I think of a promising prospect, like Schenn, Gustavsson or Kadri, a star, like Kessel, Phaneuf or Kaberle or a first round draft pick. So I think that was what Duke was trying to point out, that only the 2 first draft picks used to get Kessel were of value.
And please don't put Jason Blake in the same category as the others. This was a salary dump going to Anaheim for a salary dump coming to Toronto. Blake was way overpaid just like Gigučre, but Gigučre is use as a mentor to the monster as they both have similar size.
So yeah I agree, when a trade happens it's usually a win win scenario. And that's why you can never rule out a trade, you never know what the other GM is thinking. |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 20:29:51
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Kadri is 186 pounds. http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hockey/2010/07/02/14595126.html
By the time the season rolls around, Kadri should have about 5-10 more pounds on him, and he should be NHL size ready. Kadri is a great skater, with good hands and a nose for creating offense. It cannot be argued Kadri has skill, but now it is a matter of if he can translate that skill into NHL success.
Look, right now all Kadri needs to do is be able to handle the physicality of the NHL game. According to reports, he is well on his way to acheiving that. A 6'1 centerman, who is 190 pounds, can suceed in the NHL. Kadri, with his skill, should be able to excel in the NHL. That was why he was drafted so highly, after all.
Something nobody has actually commented on here yet is the weakness of the Leafs bottom six. Besides Colton Orr and Mike Brown and Freddy Sjostrom, this bottom six really needs to forge an identity in my eyes. Primeau and Wallin, the two centermen of the bottom six, are gone. Now admittedly they were not very good, especially last season. But that still leaves two holes, and I don't think that a player like Mitchell will fit the role of 3rd line center particularly well.
Burke has stated that he likes his bottom six to perform the dirty work of his squad. So far, the ones which are definitely there are Orr, Brown, and Sjostrom. I could see Ron Wilson putting Caputi or Rosehill on that last wing position, but I would prefer someone else, more like signing somebody like Aaron Asham.
I'm thinking Burkie might pick up another one of his former Ducks, Rob Niedermayer. Then another defensive centerman who does all of the dirty work. A player which really stands out to me is Ryan Johnson of Vancouver, I could really see him fitting in with Burke's style of play. All in all, those moves would really round out the bottom six, give them that physical/defensive identity, and really make them a bit more of a tough team to play against.
Thoughts? |
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Guest4803
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Posted - 07/05/2010 : 20:29:52
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by The Duke[/i]
[br]Including last season Brian Burke picked up Kessel, Phaneuf, JS Gig, J.Gust, F.Beau, M.Kom, K.Vers, C.Arm in one way or another ( trade- free agency ).....Besides the two 1st rd draft picks, He Hasn`t given up Anything of Value ( good roster players ) ....NOTHING, you can`t name ONE player of any considerable value the leafs will surely miss, NO-ONE. While doing this he rid TO of over-paid hockey players who were under-acheiving and with ridiculous contracts...he has amazed me so far. I don`t listen to any comment which goes something like...Brian Burke can`t get............................ the Phaneuf trade blew my mind, all those rejects gone for a world class hockey player. Don`t put anything out of reach for this man, ( no i don`t think he is a god ), but he is one dam good general manager !!! Leafs fans can finally have some future to look forward to after 2 - 3 decades.
how does being the worst team in the eastern confrence blow your mind?
Kessel - fair enough hes a top line forward (technically gave up Seguin + Knight+next year1st rounder)
Versteeg- 2nd or 3rd line anywhere on a playoff team but because hes in TO he has the potential to play top line minutes
(lost stalberg + Didomenico + Paradais)
Armstrong- brings some grit but once again probably a 3rd line player anywhere else in the nhl
Gustavasson- Highly paid backup
Giggy- Overpaid starter
Phaneuf- Top 2 dman but overpaid
Beauch and Kommy- overpaid top 4dman
i dont doubt that toronto will improve on the season they had last year, but how couldnt they?
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irvine
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1315 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 21:08:22
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@ Beans:
167 or 177 lbs, whichever it may be, I'm not for certain.
However,
At 6'1, Kadri has the height to be able to bulk up to NHL standards in weight. He just has to put the work in to it during the off season, and he'll be able to get that weight.
We're not talking about a guy who is grossly under sized here. He is not 5'10 or shorter. Achieving a weight that is 190 Lbs or closer to 200 is possible.
I don't think we should really be arguing over the guys weight too much here, really. It can be achieved with some hard work and training.
(Even if he is 6'0, 190 Lbs is very achievable)
Is he still going to be below the average? Sure. But 6'0 - 6'1, 190 - 195 Lbs is not terribly small. Not small enough that i'd be overly worried size is going to ruin his career. Personally anyways.
Irvine/prez. |
Edited by - irvine on 07/05/2010 21:10:30 |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 23:12:10
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quote:
When I think of a player of value I think of a promising prospect, like Schenn, Gustavsson or Kadri, a star, like Kessel, Phaneuf or Kaberle or a first round draft pick. So I think that was what Duke was trying to point out, that only the 2 first draft picks used to get Kessel were of value.
You know, you have to build a team with more than blue-chip prospects, and stars. There are worker gaps that need to be filled on any team with reliable grinder pieces, and players like Hagman/Ponikarovsky/White are those types of players. Sure, all of them are replaceable, but now the Leafs have to replace them all - will they be able to get better than they gave up?
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2010 : 23:41:24
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by The Duke[/i]
[br]Including last season Brian Burke picked up Kessel, Phaneuf, JS Gig, J.Gust, F.Beau, M.Kom, K.Vers, C.Arm in one way or another ( trade- free agency ).....Besides the two 1st rd draft picks, He Hasn`t given up Anything of Value ( good roster players ) ....NOTHING, you can`t name ONE player of any considerable value the leafs will surely miss, NO-ONE. While doing this he rid TO of over-paid hockey players who were under-acheiving and with ridiculous contracts...he has amazed me so far. I don`t listen to any comment which goes something like...Brian Burke can`t get............................ the Phaneuf trade blew my mind, all those rejects gone for a world class hockey player. Don`t put anything out of reach for this man, ( no i don`t think he is a god ), but he is one dam good general manager !!! Leafs fans can finally have some future to look forward to after 2 - 3 decades.
Duke....it's great you think like this as a Leafs fan, but have a realistic look at what you're saying. You're making out like Burke stole all these gems for nothing? First off, as someone mentioned, the players he aquired are no more "irreplaceable" than most of what he gave up!!! Sure, Kessel's somewhat of a stud, but don't tell me for a second that you'd rather have him than Seguin and what is still to come from that deal??? The Phaneuf trade may just turn out roses for Burke. I liked the deal from his end even if it is a bit risky but if Phaneuf doesn't step up his play and ends up being a dressing room cancer, your view of him will likely chance. The other guys you throw out there like Beauchemin, Komisarek, Versteeg, etc are hardly "irreplaceable"!!! I think what i'm trying to say is that you're making it seem Burke signed or traded for a bunch of grade A talent while giving up nothing. Sorry man, you really should re-evaluate those moves if you really believe that! |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 06:55:46
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by nuxfan[/i]
[br]quote:
When I think of a player of value I think of a promising prospect, like Schenn, Gustavsson or Kadri, a star, like Kessel, Phaneuf or Kaberle or a first round draft pick. So I think that was what Duke was trying to point out, that only the 2 first draft picks used to get Kessel were of value.
You know, you have to build a team with more than blue-chip prospects, and stars. There are worker gaps that need to be filled on any team with reliable grinder pieces, and players like Hagman/Ponikarovsky/White are those types of players. Sure, all of them are replaceable, but now the Leafs have to replace them all - will they be able to get better than they gave up?
You're right, those 3 players were big pieces, but they were pieces of an unsuccessful team. So I think the identity needed to be change. That's why Ponikarovsky is gone he was a UFA at the end of the year and the Leafs were not ready to give him a raise, so they traded him at the trade deadline for Luca Caputi, which is a good third line grinder. Hagman and White were the two big pieces of the trade for Phaneuf, but in order to get a player like Phaneuf you need to give some talent and some hard working guys. But you need to realize that they also got Aulie a 6 foot 6 prospect defenseman, and Sjostrom a PK specialist which Toronto needed just that. And they gave away Mayers and Stajan, two players that didn't have a future with Toronto, also you need to realize that Stajan and White were RFA at the end of the year and they would also require a raise. And I think they already replace those guys with the acquisition of Versteeg and Armstrong.
I'm not praising everything that Brian Burke is doing, I'm not too impressed with the signing of Komisarek, and sure the Kessel trade seems like a steal for Boston (even though I still like this trade considering that when he did it he couldn't know that his team would have such an unsuccessful season, the worst in many years) or even the trade that got Versteeg I'm wondering if he didn't give too much with 3 prospects.
Burke has the ability to surprise people with a trade, and that's just what I was trying to prove. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 08:01:18
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Please stick to the topic at hand, folks - otherwise, you can start another thread on Kadri's weight, or on Bobby Ryan RFA status and where he signs, elsewhere.
To the point - I made a comment some time ago that I spent some time researching for (centers Leafs might want or have a chance of getting), and got no response, while someone mentions Kadri's weight and everyone has to say something . . . let's hear some comments on the ACTUAL TOPIC, please!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 08:09:13
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by slozo[/i]
[br]Please stick to the topic at hand, folks - otherwise, you can start another thread on Kadri's weight, or on Bobby Ryan RFA status and where he signs, elsewhere.
To the point - I made a comment some time ago that I spent some time researching for (centers Leafs might want or have a chance of getting), and got no response, while someone mentions Kadri's weight and everyone has to say something . . . let's hear some comments on the ACTUAL TOPIC, please!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
Slozo a guy still out there that may be a short term solution is a Mike Modano, 1 year contract is all he will be looking for this way the Leafs don't have to rush anyone or overpay for someone who doesn't quite fit the bill,, Modano is old sure but he still has the insticts and maybe the leadership to help a mkid like Bozak and maybe take some pressure off of him, i'm not saying as your number one center but if Bozak slumps a little wich is natural this gives you a guy who could relieve some pressure,,, or maybe a Eric Belanger ,, great in the face off circle he may be small but hes one tough sob and hes has put up decent 40 point seasons he could again play a thrid line roll but easily in case of a slump or injury step in and play a top six roll for a couple weeks,,,, this is what i would do,, then next year which has a huge FA crop go after the type of player you really need longterm,,, Belanger is a great 3rd liner so even if hes under contract he keeps his thrid line roll and Burk can bring in a true no 1 center next year... were as Modano is a one year fixer that brings some leadership and guidance to a kid like Bozak
Pasty |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 10:36:48
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This is NOT a rumour its something totally of my creation that I thought was intriguing.
Brian Burke is a salary cap predator we've seen it with Versteeg.
If New Jersey is in fact the team to sign Kovalchuck then they will have to shed approximately $5 million in salary:
Patrick Elias & Travis Zajac for Tomas Kaberle & Nazim Kadri
New Jersey ships out roughly 10 million in salary to bring in 5 million. With only 5 defenseman currently under contract the Devils bring in a top puck mover in Kaberle to fill out their blueline. Kadri is a replacement for Zajac at a 1/3 the cost.
Toronto brings in a legitimate first line left winger in Elias although with durability questions and a large cap hit at 6 million, but still has the capability to score 20-30 goals. Zajac is a first or second line centre and along with Elias and Kessel would fill out Toronto's first line nicely.
Just something to think about... |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 11:04:37
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]This is NOT a rumour its something totally of my creation that I thought was intriguing.
Brian Burke is a salary cap predator we've seen it with Versteeg.
If New Jersey is in fact the team to sign Kovalchuck then they will have to shed approximately $5 million in salary:
Patrick Elias & Travis Zajac for Tomas Kaberle & Nazim Kadri
New Jersey ships out roughly 10 million in salary to bring in 5 million. With only 5 defenseman currently under contract the Devils bring in a top puck mover in Kaberle to fill out their blueline. Kadri is a replacement for Zajac at a 1/3 the cost.
Toronto brings in a legitimate first line left winger in Elias although with durability questions and a large cap hit at 6 million, but still has the capability to score 20-30 goals. Zajac is a first or second line centre and along with Elias and Kessel would fill out Toronto's first line nicely.
Just something to think about...
let me re phrase this,, If i were the Devils Gm i would not consider this trade for a second, Zajac is a 25 yr old on with all the tools and proven any 25 year old who already has 200 plus points in 4 NHL season escially 170 in the last 2 is very valuable in this era of the NHL, Elias is a heart and soul player and a very big part of the devils Lineup besides injuries there is 0 downside and a tonne of upside, he is almost a point per game player career aswell, I see Zajac as having a far higher value than Kaberle and Kadri together and Elias being a far higher value than either player alone, this is my opinion and not ment to insult or bash yours I just see this trade as extremly lob sided,, espcially given the Devils back end is already superb plus they have already added Volchenkov, so even more so Kaberle is less interesting
Pasty |
Edited by - Pasty7 on 07/06/2010 11:51:25 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 11:56:35
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It definitely is an interesting trade. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it Pasty, especially from an anti-Leafs point of view, but it is interesting to speculate about.
1) Elias is 34, and Kaberle is 32. It is a switch up of positions, and something that would benefit the Devils. Elias is replaceable, since the Devils are extremely deep on the wing. Losing Elias will give more of a chance for the likes of Parise and Clarkson to shine even more brightly then now. They would have a deep four, with the likes of Parise, Kovalchuk, Clarkson and Langenbrunner as their wingers. They also have some future players on the verge on making the jump, such as Mattias Tedenby. So it is not inconceivable to think that the Devils could afford to lose Elias without feeling any negative effects.
2) Lou Lamoriello has craved a player like Kaberle since he lost Niedermayer to free agency in 2004. It is well documented that NJ is in the need for a player such as Kaberle, someone who is great at moving the puck and who excells on the PP. NJ currently is built with a sturdy defense, but not an explosive one. They lost Paul Martin, who was their closest thing to Kaberle. They really need Kaberle, maybe even more then Kovalchuk from a logical standpoint. I'm sure Lou would be thrilled to add a player such as him.
3) If we compare Zajac to Kadri straight up at this very moment, it is easy to agree that Zajac is the better of the two players. But if we compare them 5 years down the road, with the potential Kadri posesses, who's to say Kadri won't be better. He has loads of skill, is fast, creative with the puck, and very good at creating offense. Zajac is a great two-way forward, can put on points but can also do a lot of good without the puck. He is very much a player Brian Burke wants. Is he a 1st line centerman? No, a great number 2, but it is a stretch to put him on the 1st line, even though he has playerd there. Overall, Lou can afford to be patient with Kadri, possibly nurture him for another season or two. But in time, Kadri would be a dominant force.
So it definitely is interesting. It could work well for both sides, as it addresses needs for both teams. It is well thought out, and is logical.
Nice idea Tiller. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 12:05:38
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I could confidently say that Kadri won't be better. Not only not as productive, but not as big or strong either. Comparing Kadri to Zajac is like comparing Tavares to Kessel. Do you want a guy who might score 35 a year or a guy who has proven he can score 35 a year??
I'll take the later.
I do complete agree that NJ would love to get Kaberle, but not at the expense of their current and future #1-#2 centre. And Elias is a NJ guy. He just is. I also don't think Burke would want to clog up the wing any more than it is already.
On paper looks good but reality says that this really doesn't make sense for either team. Not 100% of it anyway. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 12:26:42
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Oh ya don't get me wrong I don't think this trade would ever take place I just posed it as a hypothetical situation.
Kadri has been over valued since being drafted thats for certain. The Leafs wing is crowded ... at right wing, Elias is a left winger and obviuously a much better option than either Nikolai Kulemin or Luca Caputi. I agree Lou wouldn't be too eager to move either player but if Kovalchuck really is in his future plans something has to give.
If the rumourd number of 7 years/$60 million for Kovy is true then that works out to an average cap hit of $8.57 million. The Devils are currently have $4.7 available to spend leaving about $4 million needed to complete the deal. No one is taking Rolston at $5 mil thats for sure and ehy would Lamorello trade for Jason Arnott at $4.5 million if he didn't have plans for him. The expendable players then seem to be Elias, Langenbrunner, and Zajac (I've heard rumours of Colin white being sent to the Minors).
The reason I proposed the deal was because the $ work for both sides and they address each team's positional needs. I whole heartedly agree Zajac will likely be a better player than Kadri but the argument for New Jersey would be they get a better option on wing in Kovalchuck and will take the hit at centre to do so. On the Toronto side you are taking a player in Elias who has had serious injury problems over his career with 3 years left at a $6 million cap hit in order to bring in Zajac. The key would be Kaberle willing to sign a reasonable extension with the Devils, if he were to do that then I believe both sides would win out in the trade.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Parise is a RFA next year and will be looking at $6-7+ million not to mention that Marty won't be around forever so eventually you have to bring iin a new goaltender.
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Edited by - Tiller33 on 07/06/2010 12:30:23 |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 12:39:47
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Tiller..... Very interesting trade! At first i thought NJ wouldn't be giving up enough in fact! I'm not huge on Zajac but i suppose he did do quite well last year and played well with Parise. Elias i figured was too old to make this deal work but as someone pointed out, he's only a couple years older than Kaberle? Any way you look at it, it's an interesting trade and this or something similar wouldn't shock me in the least.
The most important thing(s) you've brought up here is the fact that NJ would obviously love a guy like Kaberle AND the needed salary dumping they face! It will be very intriguing to see what Lou does! |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 12:51:41
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Totally makes sense Tiller. But I don't know as a Leafs GM I would want to do this. Sure it would be nice to have Zajac in the lineup, but to lose Kadri would kill the Leafs fans. I mean we already lost 2 first rounders and some prospects in order to get Kessel and Versteeg. I also believe that Parise brings the best in Zajac, although Zajac seems like a point producer, Parise makes anybody look good on his line. So I think Zajac is a good second line center at best. 1st line center in some teams, like Toronto.
But the real part of the deal that would bug me the most is to get Elias, a good winger, but at 34 and on the decline, not to mention his cap hit. I would rather keep Kaberle and try to sign him next year.
We saw it quite often that when GMs has no choice to make a deal (either to dump salary or because a player wants out) he will accept an offer of a lesser value.
But your trade makes total sense and I agree that NJ should look to dump some salary and they should look to get a puck moving defenseman. I hope Brian Burke talks to Lamoriello because a good deal could come out. Maybe Burkie can throw in a young goalie into the mix. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 12:58:23
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Pasty7[/i]
[br]quote:
[i]Originally posted by Tiller33[/i]
[br]This is NOT a rumour its something totally of my creation that I thought was intriguing.
Brian Burke is a salary cap predator we've seen it with Versteeg.
If New Jersey is in fact the team to sign Kovalchuck then they will have to shed approximately $5 million in salary:
Patrick Elias & Travis Zajac for Tomas Kaberle & Nazim Kadri
New Jersey ships out roughly 10 million in salary to bring in 5 million. With only 5 defenseman currently under contract the Devils bring in a top puck mover in Kaberle to fill out their blueline. Kadri is a replacement for Zajac at a 1/3 the cost.
Toronto brings in a legitimate first line left winger in Elias although with durability questions and a large cap hit at 6 million, but still has the capability to score 20-30 goals. Zajac is a first or second line centre and along with Elias and Kessel would fill out Toronto's first line nicely.
Just something to think about...
let me re phrase this,, If i were the Devils Gm i would not consider this trade for a second, Zajac is a 25 yr old on with all the tools and proven any 25 year old who already has 200 plus points in 4 NHL season escially 170 in the last 2 is very valuable in this era of the NHL, Elias is a heart and soul player and a very big part of the devils Lineup besides injuries there is 0 downside and a tonne of upside, he is almost a point per game player career aswell, I see Zajac as having a far higher value than Kaberle and Kadri together and Elias being a far higher value than either player alone, this is my opinion and not ment to insult or bash yours I just see this trade as extremly lob sided,, espcially given the Devils back end is already superb plus they have already added Volchenkov, so even more so Kaberle is less interesting
Pasty
How does a guy like Volchenkov fills in for a player like Kaberle????? I mean Volchenkov hits and blocks shots like a madman and he's a PK specialist, but he's not a PP specialist like Kaberle. So a guy like Kaberle would totally be apealing for NJ. I think NJ were playing with 5 forwards on the pp at the end of the year, with Rolston and Kovalchuk on the point. I think they need that pass to set up a one timer from either Kovalchuk or Rolston.
And did Zajac really scored 170 points in the last 2 seasons? I'll have to check on that. |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 13:02:04
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| Yeah 129 points is more accurate. |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 17:33:33
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| Beans...what makes you so confident that Kadri, a guy you haven`t seen play in the NHL ( or has any1 else ) will never be as good as Zajac ?? i can`t understand the logic here. Whats so special about Zajac anyway ? I`ve seen the guy play, he is good, but no Cam Neely. He had 2 points in 5 playoff games this year, didn`t exactly take NJ by the horns and lead them into round 2. Nothing personal Beans but do you hold something againist young Kadri ? All the comments you`ve posted about him seem so negative. I`m sure all these weight , height, etc...issues have been said before about players like M. St.Louis, i don`t even listen to them anymore, heart and a willingness to win makes a hockey player, Theron Fleury proved that a long time ago. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 17:41:28
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Duke - hang around long enough, and you will notice who does and who doesn't have a Leafs bias . . . that's all it is.
btw - most GMs would take Tavares over Kessel, I'd reckon. It's only potential, yes - but it's great potential.
Beans - wanna make a bet on Kadri becoming better than Zajac? It'll take a few years though, maybe 5 . . . but it'd be worth it.
And lastly - I wouldn't take Elias, not the same player as years earlier, and a bit injury prone now, and on the downswing bigtime. We want young here!
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 17:55:30
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its not bias its opinion,, and you are right Kadri has shown all the signs of being a futur stud in the NHL,,,,,,, Zajac has shown these signs in the NHL and i am not ready to say Kadri will not be better than Zajac infact that could be the most wrong thing in this topic,, all i`m saying is Zajac is a guranteed NHL top six with the potential for stardome already at a young age, so his value is far higher for trade than Kadri in my opinion,, and on the other hand i think Zajac brings more to a team than Kaberle right now and Kabby is 7 years older so again in my opinion Zajac is more valuable, in my opinion, this is not a knock on kabby i think zajac is just very very valuable, believe it or not i really don`t hate leafs and im a habs fan,, i hate habs management look back at other posts years ago,, when the habs finished first in the conference and everyone planned the parade i said it was a fluke and the following year we would be a bubble team again i am a realist with strong hockey opinions not bias in any which way,,,,, Komisarek is still one of my favorite players ,, j.s giguere was my idol growing up, i would route for the leafs probably over 23 other teams in the nhl i havn`t broken it down i just know they re in my top ten,,, anyway its not bias its my interpertation of facts!
Pasty |
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1239 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 18:25:49
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| Pasty i agree with you on J.S.Giguere...didn`t he win the Conne Smythe in 2003 on a losing team ? A stanley cup in 2007 ? thats a 5 year span, this guy is not just a 1 year hit wonder. You don`t just go from being that good to a bum at still a young age, what is he 32 maybe ? I just don`t get these look at the numbers lately ( stats ) posts...winning in the playoffs takes heart, some players can step up their game, some can`t. I believe Giguere can still give a team a good playoff run, his salary has turned off many suitors these days, but after next season some team will get a good goalie at maybe 2.5 - 3 m per season for another 3-4 years. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 18:42:39
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Giguerre would definately be a solid #1 for any team, the only thing is he isn't (at the moment) worth $6 million. He was essentially a victim of good scouting in Anaheim by them bringing in Bryzgalov and Hillier.
He got his Stanley Cup contract and next year when he is a UFA he will get a contract that more suits his worth in the $3.5-$4.5 range. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2010 : 22:52:50
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wow, lots to comment on here:
quote:
But your trade makes total sense and I agree that NJ should look to dump some salary and they should look to get a puck moving defenseman. I hope Brian Burke talks to Lamoriello because a good deal could come out. Maybe Burkie can throw in a young goalie into the mix.
This is exactly why Kaberle to NJ for someone on NJD won't happen without additional parts. NJ has to dump salary - they cannot afford to trade Zajac (3.8) and take on 4.25M in return. So, NJD have to throw in something big, say Elias (6M) or Rolston (5M). If that happens, and you're moving Zajac + one more, then TOR is sending Kaberle + significant prospect in return (Monster, Kahdri, there isn't much more in the cupboard). Kaberle is 4.25M hit, but the entry level deal makes it work for NJD, and they shed about 5M in salary.
I don't think that Burke wants to let go of Kahdri, and I don't think that Lou wants to let go of either of the others.
If NJD are shedding salary, they could just dump Rolston somewhere and trade Elias for something cheaper than Kaberle. I just don't see this scenario happening for either side.
Kadri vs Zajac - Leafs fans, don't get all bent out of place. One of them *might* be very good. The other one *is* very good. So many top draft picks have had potential and thrown it out the window come NHL time. I'd take proven at the NHL level over potential most days of the week (Hall, Seguin, Crosby at draft day being the exceptions).
quote:
ou don`t just go from being that good to a bum at still a young age, what is he 32 maybe ? I just don`t get these look at the numbers lately ( stats ) posts...winning in the playoffs takes heart, some players can step up their game, some can`t. I believe Giguere can still give a team a good playoff run, his salary has turned off many suitors these days, but after next season some team will get a good goalie at maybe 2.5 - 3 m per season for another 3-4 years.
The reason people look at stats is because past performance is hopefully an indicator to future performance. Duke, sometimes you do go from good to bad - esp if you're a goalie. Quite a few goalies have just "lost it" for no discernible reason after year or years of success, it happens.
JS has not been truly good since the year after his cup win. Hiller flat out outplayed him in ANA for one and a half seasons, and JS became very expendable very quickly. There were not a lot of teams looking to get him at the trade deadline, and not just because of his salary.
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 06:32:55
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Yeah, on the surface, you'd think a deal between NJ and Toronto could be beneficial to both . . . but as pointed out by Pasty, Zajac is young, full of promise, and pretty cheap considering, so I really don't see him going anywhere.
Would Toronto take on the older and more expensive Elias? I doubt it, but it's possible . . . he would certainly fill in the top line center role so that hopefully Kadri could make the team and become the #2. Just not certain that Burke will settle for that, and I think his primary concern is someone young and big and physical. Then again, are there any centers who are on the trading block that fit that description? Not of the caliber we need, it would seem . . .
And I suppose I will retract the Zajac/Kadri comment. Fair enough, in the end I do agree that one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush . . .
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro
735 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 07:12:56
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by nuxfan[/i]
[br]wow, lots to comment on here:
quote:
But your trade makes total sense and I agree that NJ should look to dump some salary and they should look to get a puck moving defenseman. I hope Brian Burke talks to Lamoriello because a good deal could come out. Maybe Burkie can throw in a young goalie into the mix.
This is exactly why Kaberle to NJ for someone on NJD won't happen without additional parts. NJ has to dump salary - they cannot afford to trade Zajac (3.8) and take on 4.25M in return. So, NJD have to throw in something big, say Elias (6M) or Rolston (5M). If that happens, and you're moving Zajac + one more, then TOR is sending Kaberle + significant prospect in return (Monster, Kahdri, there isn't much more in the cupboard). Kaberle is 4.25M hit, but the entry level deal makes it work for NJD, and they shed about 5M in salary.
I don't think that Burke wants to let go of Kahdri, and I don't think that Lou wants to let go of either of the others.
If NJD are shedding salary, they could just dump Rolston somewhere and trade Elias for something cheaper than Kaberle. I just don't see this scenario happening for either side.
I don't think it was a question of trading straight up. I was suggesting exactly that, while acquiring a puck moving defenseman, which is exactly what they need, they can shed some salary. But it was never question of a straight up deal. We are always looking at a package deal. And in order to trade a big contract like Rolston or Elias you sometimes have to trade a more value piece, and while trading a value piece you might want to get something good in return. So that's why the trade tiller suggested makes sense, I'm not saying that it will happen but it's fair to say that it makes sense.
What I was suggesting is trading away Kaberle and a young prospect goalie like Jussi Rynnas for Rolston(salary dump) and a top six forward (Zajac) to compensate taking a salary like Rolston. This way NJ gets what they want a young goalie that MIGHT be ready when Brodeur retires, a puck moving defenseman, they shed some salary, they keep Elias. And Toronto gets what they want a young top six centerman and a veteran top six forward, plus they keep Kadri. Ok maybe Toronto would have to throw in another prospect to get this deal done.
Just remember that when we talk about a possible trade we're talking about a package deal and not straight up deal. Straight up deals are not much seen in the NHL today. |
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Guest4776
( )
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Posted - 07/07/2010 : 07:20:59
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new rumour
kaberle to kings for simmonds and prospect |
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Pasty7
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2312 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 07:45:55
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just a small question i could be wrong but according to capgeek.com the leafs can't afford to take on anymore salary, they are worse off than the Devils in view of cap space, according to capgeek the leafs only have $2,575,833 to work with,, that means they could only take on Zajac if Kaberle left and but could deffinetly not fit Elias' 6 million onto their roster without moving another player, unless its Kabby for Elias straight up then the leafs are right up against the cap with 500 large to spare roughly,, so the leafs need to shed the cap space,, maybe this is why Burkie wants to move Kabby so badly he needs cap room to fill out his top six, and the leafs have Phaneuf to move the puck along with Beachmin Kaberle's contract is expendable,,, basicly thats why everyone is lowballing Burke they know hes got to move kabby if he wants to fill out his top six, so if im another Gm im waiting or hoping Burke cracks and decides hes gottta make room,,
Pasty |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 08:39:11
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Interesting rumour about SImmonds . . . hmm. Very interesting, in that he is one of those players I haven't seen enough of to determine how good he could be, and he's had two years so far only. Seems to have surprised last year, and upside has been raised to a possible top 6 forward if he could bulk up into his 6'2" frame . . . but otherwise a great energy forward with some skills.
Would have to be a good prospect alongside Simmonds, but from what I hear, the Kings love him and would force someone to overpay to get him, so it's not likely.
Make it Braydon Schenn, and now we are talking . . . but I really don't see that as very likely either.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 08:43:59
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Slozo, I am intrigued by your Kadri vs Zajac bet. Define 'better'. Do you mean straight up production?? Goals, assist, both?? +/-?? And when?? Are you saying that Kadri will produce more in his 1st and 2nd years than Zajac has or are you saying that in 2012 that Kadri will be producing more than Zajac straight up??
You can say as much as you want about my bias against the Leafs, but comments like this just make is clear that there is also very strong bias towards the Leafs. There are bigger, stronger, faster, and ultimately better players that are in the same age group(Draft Class) as Kadri who do not get the props or the potential that he gets because of the markets they play in. Again, take nothing away from a Kid who will be a Top 6 forward in the NHL (if his body can handle it). However, you don't hear about guys like Duchene, Evander Kane, Kulikov, or O'Reilly getting near the props that Kadri gets but these guys were actual NHL players this year.
Regardless, I apologize for going off topic but your bet is very intriguing. Please provide some more details on what you consider 'better' and I would more than likely take the bet. Zajac has 3-20+ goal seasons and 2-60+pts seasons in his first 4 seasons. He is only going to get better, baring any serious injuries. I just don't see Kadri's body, or immature head (as seen by his actions at the WJC) able to produce to that level. |
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Tiller33
PickupHockey Pro
389 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2010 : 08:55:41
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by Pasty7[/i]
[br]just a small question i could be wrong but according to capgeek.com the leafs can't afford to take on anymore salary, they are worse off than the Devils in view of cap space, according to capgeek the leafs only have $2,575,833 to work with,, that means they could only take on Zajac if Kaberle left and but could deffinetly not fit Elias' 6 million onto their roster without moving another player, unless its Kabby for Elias straight up then the leafs are right up against the cap with 500 large to spare roughly,, so the leafs need to shed the cap space,, maybe this is why Burkie wants to move Kabby so badly he needs cap room to fill out his top six, and the leafs have Phaneuf to move the puck along with Beachmin Kaberle's contract is expendable,,, basicly thats why everyone is lowballing Burke they know hes got to move kabby if he wants to fill out his top six, so if im another Gm im waiting or hoping Burke cracks and decides hes gottta make room,,
Pasty
I wondered the same thing because TSN, The Fan 590 etc. still say Burke has around $6 million to spend. I could be completely wrong but I think the Bonus hit that capgeek includes doesn't kick in to the cap until it is reached (goals for, games played etc.) which is what the bonus carry over penalty they show is.
Also when I proposed the deal I made the assumption of having Jeff Finger in the minors.
And let me reiterate that the proposed trade was merely speculation for us to debate about not something that i heard/see coming to fruition.
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The Next Trade/Signing for the Leafers 
