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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
 Posted - 03/19/2011 : 10:34:36
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In last night's VAN/PXH game, Burrows was given a 5 minute major and game misconduct for this: http://www.sportsnet.ca/video/latest/Game-Shifter-Burrows-major. Certainly a few factors went into this call:
- it was Burrows, who has a reputation with officials
- Fiddler stayed down for an unusually long time perhaps to milk the call - certainly considering he was back on the ice a few shifts later, no damage was done.
- the Chara incident is still fresh in everyone's mind.
While I agree that Burrows should certainly have received a 2 minute penalty for that hit, 5 and a game was not called for, there is no way that he intended to injure Fiddler on that play or even hit him hard. The call was even more significant given that it was a 0-0 game with 6 minutes left in the 3rd period, and an awful lot had been "let go" during the game.
I don't watch enough other teams to know - have there been other questionable major penalty calls in recent days? I'm thinking of the Lecavalier slash a couple of days ago, 5-and-a-game seemed harsh for that as well? While the fact that it was Burrows and Fiddler stayed down to milk it factored in, this call should not have been severe.
So, are refs just a little more sensitive to any play that looks dangerous, and are starting to wield the major hammer more freely, or have they been given specific marching orders from the league to up anything that looks dangerous in any way to a major penalty?
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 11:20:38
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| Hey nuxfan, I think you nailed it in your assessment. It was an overreaction by the officials after the Chara incident (and all the publicity around NHL injuries this year) And to top it off, Burrows has a reputation among players AND officials. It was a shameful call that pretty much cost the Canucks one or two points. |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 11:30:24
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| I can't decide if this is just a one-time overreaction, or if this is the new norm - if this is 5 and a game in the post-Chara incident NHL, we're going to start seeing a lot more 5 minute PP's in games methinks |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 11:54:53
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Well, I have no choice but to either be a hypocrite, or respond in opposition to your assesments, gentlemen, not because I necessarily disagree with your opinion, but because just yesterday I made a post in the Chara thread using this situation as the basis for my thoughts on what has to start to change to repair some of the damage being done to the game by the carelessness of the players at times.
I like this call, regardless of who was involved. As far as I could see, at no time did Burrows see anything other than the numbers on the back of Fiddler's jersey, that to me anyways, says it was a hit from behind.
Fiddler's ability to come back and play a shift or two later does not detract from that.. I like, and hope that the referees keep making these calls automatically, and eventually it would maybe sink in to the players that if the hit looks at all dangerous, don't take it, simple as that.
As long as this is the new norm for this type of play, and it is called consistently, I am all for it. I have stated many times in various threads that the discretion to make these calls, has to be put back in to the hands of the referees and supported by powers above, then the players will have no choice but to play smarter physically, instead of with the recklessness, pawned off as hard checking, that some play with now. |
Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 03/19/2011 11:56:08 |
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polishexpress
PickupHockey Pro
525 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 12:06:36
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Ya it was a "little" push, but isn't that all that is needed sometimes to injure someone?
It did seem though, that Fiddler was milking it. Still, those are my most hated plays in hockey, checks from behind into the boards. I know that you probably felt robbed of two points nuxfan.
One thing I noticed, though, is that Fiddler actually tried to do a bit of a stop, using his left skate as the outside braking skate. That made him turn his back to Burrows. Isn't that stupid, knowing that a guy is going to check you?
Not to say that it was Fiddler's fault, but lets put it this way: when I play shinny, I turn my back to the player behind me quite often, trusting my friends won't drill me into the boards, since we play no-contact. But if you are a professional, knowing that you are playing versus guys that care more about getting the puck than your own health, wouldn't I do everything in my power to make sure I don't put myself in a potentially vulnerable position?
For example, had Fiddle gone into the corner, and used his right skate to brake into the boards, Burrows would have hit him on the shoulder, not the back. Granted, the puck would have been easier to get for Burrows, but Fiddler wouldn't have even fallen down on the play! |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 12:16:25
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fortunately, the two points we can afford to lose. Had it been another 2 teams in a different situation, maybe not so much.
There was a lot of speculation right after the call that Fiddler looked like he was going to keep going but then suddenly stopped, causing Burrows to hit him in the vulnerable position. Had Fiddler kept going forward, you're right it would have been a good check. Burrows even looked like he let up at the last minute when he realized what was going to happen, which might have saved Fiddler additional injury.
FER - I too am fine with the call, so long as it is called consistently. Calls were certainly not being made consistently in last nights game and I felt that the refs turned a blind eye to a couple of other PHX infractions, which perhaps added to my feeling of injustice here. But I agree with your assessment, I don't have a problem if this is the new norm in the NHL for 5-minute penalties - so long as it's evenly applied. It will mean changes for every team though. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2011 : 17:10:21
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Tough call. Really tough. I get the part about Burrows and seeing only the numbers. Both gloves were right on Fiddler's numbers. But at the same time, Fiddler was going one way and stopped.
That being said, the responsibility of the player getting hit is to not intentionally put himself in a vulnerable postions. I don't think Fiddler can play this puck any other way. Secondly, it's the responsibility of the player doing the hitting to not hit a player in a vulnerable position.
This call is not consistent with what has been called all season so I see that side of the point as well, but it is a penalty by definition. I see more than 2 minutes but the game misconduct might have been a bit much.
Most importantly, asNux states, the call is fine as long as it's called the same way in all games in all situations. |
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n/a
deleted
4809 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 15:14:59
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Good call - tough call, yes; but this, to me, is how it SHOULD be called, and as others stated, it has to be consistent (not just in one game here or there, not just against agitators with reps like Burrows).
nuxfan - I took a good close look at Fiedler's face and body language, and if he was "milking" it, as you claim - he should be up for an Oscar this year. Looked genuine to me. Recovery time has zero to do with the pain one might feel right afterward.
It was the slightest of hits, but on a player in a vulnerable position, and facing the numbers.
I hope this reffing continues. As with any sea change in philosophy, there are sure to be hiccups, but, it's a good start.
"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 22:34:30
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Hopefully i don't come off as too much of a homer, but i thought the call was pretty weak. I was at the game and didn't have the luxury of replay but have seen it a few times since and def think that the Chara hit (and others like it) contributed to it being called the way it was.
Beans, i'm impressed with your post in that no where did the "live by the sword....." comment enter it!  Not even a token "d-bag" mentioned! You really are softening up. 
I can't get over the fact on hits like this one that the player (Burrows in this case) barely touches the guy who goes into the boards. If you look closely, yes his hand(s) make contact with Fiddler, but there was no push whatsoever. I guess hit momentum might have added to it slightly but Fiddler looked to me like he might have caught an edge as he tried to stop / slow down and ended up going in awkwardly. He may have done this without any contact from anyone? Either way, i'm okay with what seems to be the consesus in that if it's consistent, i'm good with it.
BTW, Labarbera was a stud! He stole the two pts for Phoenix, not the refs! |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 07:15:25
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Alex, I don't think anyone needs me to tell them that Burrows is a tool and it really doesn't have any relevance here. I have never thought Burrows was "dirty" per se, more of an agitator. A little slash here, spear there. Nothing to hurt anyone, just to get them going.
On a side note, all this about Fiddler milking the injury is crap. Caught an edge?? C'mon, that's about as bad as the hit to the neck!! Burrows is skating hard to the puck and puts both his gloves on Fiddler's numbers. Where is Fiddler supposed to go??? |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:30:40
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Beans, my comments about you not slagging Burrows was in jest, somewhat. I really expected the "live by the sword" comment as it would prob fit perfectly here.
As for Fiddler "milking the injury", we obviously differ in our opinions on that. Even though i didn't mention anything about that in my post, i will now. I was at the game, sitting behind the Coyotes bench. Not right behind, but close enough to see Fiddler walk down the tunnel towards the dressing room, only to return within the first 2 mins of the penalty. I'd be willing to bet that he didn't even go as far as the dressing room. Sure, he didn't play for a few shifts, but that's because he wasn't on their pp which was enjoying a 5 min man advantage! He was also clearly seen laughing, smiling and celebrating when they scored. Def not affected whatsoever by the hit and i think it'd be foolish of anyone to think that players don't often embelish in an instance like this. No different than Burrows taking a dive really.
As for the "caught an edge" comment, i'm not trying to make excuses for him. BUT, if you look closely, Fiddler was going quite fast and when he decided to turn towards the glass rather than carry on skating (towards the back of the net) and it appeared to me that he was unable to stop. Perhaps "caught an edge is not the right term" but he look as though he was unable to stop and would have had some sort of collision with the boards regardless of whether or not another player was near him.
Again, i'm not making excuses for Burrows, but if this type of "hit" is going to be 5 and a game, there's gonna be a serious increase in PP goals.
The link doesn't seem to work anymore but here's a couple others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqfVxk3Zbn8&feature=watch_response
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgX83i9ate8
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 12:37:08
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Actually I think Alex is right. After reviewing the video, it looks to me that he grabbed on to the back of Fiddler's sweater, and was trying to stop Vern from 'board biting', something any good friend of the keepers of the rink, that Burrows obviously is, tries to do whenever possible. It's well known how much of an effort it takes keeping the board dashers free from those embarrasing teeth marks.
It is actually Fiddler's momentum that carries Burrows in, to the boards along with Fiddler, which of course can be obviously misconstrued as a push or check. Had Burrows not grabbed Fiddler's sweater, who know how much more damaging Fiddler's kamikaze face plant would have actually been.
The refs got it wrong for sure, Fiddler should have got a game misconduct for delay of game.
signed,
The Joe Thornton neck guy.
Oh and PS., Alex, yes you do sound like a homer when you try to justify what, although was not a malicious, or intentional check from behind, was still a check from behind.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 13:04:52
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Lol, good one FER.
Prob with it is that i'm not trying to say Burrows has zero responsibility for the outcome. Clearly he could have avoided ANY contact with Fiddler. Maybe that's the only option for players now? It certainly will come to that if the league and refs continue to call plays as such and the game will see a lot of change. If that's what it's going to take, i guess we'll have to live with it.
I have to assume my posts are being read as "I don't think Burrows should have gotten a penalty at all...." and that's not what i was saying. I was simply responding to the original post in that i don't think 5 and a game was deserved for this incident.
You know, if i were such a "homer", don't t you think i'd have "lost it" over the Getzlaf hit on Hamhuis? THAT, imo, was far worse than what Burrows did to Fiddler.
In case you forgot what happened in that one.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fDdmneUnyU |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 13:20:29
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In light of the way things have transpired as of late, what do you think Getzlaf would get today, if he did the same hit?
I'm guessing 5 and a game as well, if not more. I hope that that is what becomes the norm for any of these types of hits, 5 and a game+, if necessary. Once learned by the players that this is no longer kosher, it can only improve the product and increase a players chances of playing without the specter of these types of injuries.
The OP said that 5 and a game was too much, I think we call all agree that, as long as everyone doing this gets 5 and a game, it's not a bad call to start making, and I hope this is the start of it. This takes nothing away from the game, that the game needs. |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 13:26:25
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Getzlaf def would have gotten something, that's almost certain. How quickly things change huh? That wasn't all that long ago!
As far as giving 5 and a game on hits like this, i'd be okay with it, only it could lead to a very different game. I don't wanna say that they'd slowly be ruling hitting out of the game, but guys def would have to make big changes. I keep reading opinions on putting the red line back in (for 2 line passes) in an attempt to slow the game down. If Fiddler had no fear whatsoever that he could be hit, he could easily just kept on going with the momentum he had and cruise behind the net and make a play. What i'm trying to say is it would make a good hit even more difficult than it is now.
It's going to be interesting going forward to see just what happens.
Another question, do ALL game misconducts (like this one) get reviewed and if so, what did Colin Campbell say? Did he need to review it? I never heard.... |
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend
6113 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 13:30:29
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Just found this and am shocked that it's being reported he was absent for 10 mins! I said earlier, 2 mins, but that was clock time as he returned in the middle of the PP. There's no way in the world he was away from the bench for 10 mins, that's laughable. I saw him walk back to the bench and heard the boos when he did!
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2011/03/19/new-nhl-protocol-put-into-practice-with-vernon-fiddler/
ETA....just found this, seems to contradict the one above? This is from puckwatch.com. Here's the relevant part:
"Hard to imagine there will be any supplemental discipline to Burrows for that hit, but the league will undoubtedly review it. One other interesting note is that despite the hit to the head and the subsequent delay while Vern Fiddler regained his wits and left the ice, he did not take the new obligatory 15 minute respite to undergo evaluation. Fiddler was back on the ice for the power play." |
Edited by - Alex116 on 03/21/2011 13:37:47 |
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 15:56:27
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There's where I have some confusion though, there are about a million different ways to bodycheck, with varying degrees of force, that don't have to happen in dangerous areas.
Every check can avoid the head if done with intelligence and timing, and without recklessness.
These changes shouldn't and won't take hitting away, only the dangerous hitting, isn't that the point? |
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star
3670 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 17:53:26
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as we speak, I'm watching the DET/PIT game, and just watched Niskanen take Abdelkader into the board in a very similar fashion, but with more force than the Burrows play. 2 minutes.
So much for consistency... |
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Is there a new standard for major penalties? 
