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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2013 :  15:02:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Perhaps not an ideal example, but it is a very good one in response to the absolute assertion that, "the team that got the best player won the trade." At the time, and I was there, Lindros was expected to be the next Gretzky/Lemieux. Sure thing.

History tells us that even Lindros for Forsberg would have been a win for the Quebec/Colorado franchise, as Forsberg went on to win a couple'a cups, while Lindros had some very good seasons, leading the Flyers into the playoffs with some quite talented linemates, but never quite made it to the promised land.

Hang on a second.....maybe that was an ideal example.

As has been repeated ad nauseum, 'the jury is out'. But so far, can we agree that the Kessel/Seguin part is a wash, and Hamilton/Knight is gravy?

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  12:19:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oil, i agree with you, Boston got some pretty darn good players in this deal....I`d take Seguin and Hamiliton over kessel, i really would !!!...BUT...i`m just so sick of some people who say that the leafs got ripped in this deal.....the leafs got nothing....so on and so on....thats nonsense, kessel is one of the leagues top goal scorers / play makers and he is a game breaker to boot........I`d like to have kessel, Seguin and Hamiliton on my team

If the leafs ever do obtain a true # 1 center to play with kessel, i`d bet he will hit 50 goals one season.

Joshua, all GM`s would like the later type of cap friendly players you talk about but the reality is that as soon as these type of players you speak of need a new contract...look out.

Just look at Chicago after they won the cup. How many did they have to move ?? Think it was 9 of their regular roster players who just lifted lord stanleys mug. Some of these were pretty darn good players.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  14:12:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the leafs ever do obtain a true # 1 center to play with kessel, i`d bet he will hit 50 goals one season.

Joshua, all GM`s would like the later type of cap friendly players you talk about but the reality is that as soon as these type of players you speak of need a new contract...look out.

Just look at Chicago after they won the cup. How many did they have to move ?? Think it was 9 of their regular roster players who just lifted lord stanleys mug. Some of these were pretty darn good players.


Yah but its like deciding between a nice car and a hot chick. Which one do you enjoy the ride with longer. Some guys would choose the hot chick, some guy would choose the hot car. When Seguin, Hamilton and Knight come due will any of them command Kessel's salary at that point? Seguin will likely be the closest, but Boston at that point will have lots of movement on the roster. I am certain they are more flexible today salary wise than they were prior to dropping Kessel's cap hit. The parts and piece received more than made up for his contributions.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest2774
( )

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  15:52:37  Reply with Quote
I personally think this has been one of the most even trades i have ever seen. Funny how everyone thinks Boston or Toronto won this trade. Both sides have got good value. I guess Boston got a little younger but are we really going to argue about 4 years.
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  17:13:01  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2774

I personally think this has been one of the most even trades i have ever seen. Funny how everyone thinks Boston or Toronto won this trade. Both sides have got good value. I guess Boston got a little younger but are we really going to argue about 4 years.

No the most even trade ever is the purchase of Alaska for what a bag of tobacco? C'mon. Take of the blue tinted glasses. TO lost the trade by a country mile.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2013 :  18:18:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am curious if anybody remembers prior to the cup win in Colorado, Philly felt strongly they won the trade. I think for a few years the felt strongly, with the league leading scorer and legion of doom, that Lindros was the best player in the game. It was only when these prospect became the Forsberg etc etc etc that the point was brought up of this trade in hindsight. For about 4-5 years Lindros was the better end of that deal and maybe the best player playing the game at that point in the league. Then the wheels fell of on the Lindros bandwagon. If you cant tell, I think Lindros could have been one of the greatest, had he learned early to keep his head up coming into the zone.

quote:
Originally posted by OILINONTARIO

Perhaps not an ideal example, but it is a very good one in response to the absolute assertion that, "the team that got the best player won the trade." At the time, and I was there, Lindros was expected to be the next Gretzky/Lemieux. Sure thing.

History tells us that even Lindros for Forsberg would have been a win for the Quebec/Colorado franchise, as Forsberg went on to win a couple'a cups, while Lindros had some very good seasons, leading the Flyers into the playoffs with some quite talented linemates, but never quite made it to the promised land.

Hang on a second.....maybe that was an ideal example.

As has been repeated ad nauseum, 'the jury is out'. But so far, can we agree that the Kessel/Seguin part is a wash, and Hamilton/Knight is gravy?

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest9848
( )

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  07:25:16  Reply with Quote
Since Kessell arrived in Toronto he has been the teams top scorerer every season. In his last season with Boston he was their 3rd top scorerer with 60 points.

Kessell 55 points, 64 points, 82, points, 52 points

Since Seguin came to Boston he has finished 12th, with 22 points, first with 67 points, and 3rd with 32 points

The year seguin came first with 67 points Kessell got 82, Kessell was 6th overall in the league, Seguin was 29th

Dougie Hamilton hasnt done much yet but im sure he will be a great player.

Toronto needed a leading scorer and they got one, Boston needed some young players that will build into solid players they got two.

All 3 are young and have promising Hockey careers. Fact is Toronto got a guy to lead the team in scoring its exactly what they needed and its exactly what they got.

Seguin would not have scored 82 points while playing for Toronto in a season where they came 3rd last in the east.

Kessell has had a bigger impact in Toronto than Seguin has in Boston so far

Its was a good trade for both teams. I would say the person who has won the most out of the deal is Seguin because he got put on a stanley cup winning team.
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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  07:33:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Couple of things:

Duke, I have no idea what your point is. In one post you are praising Kessel as the 2nd Messiah and in the next post you are saying you would not take Kessel over both Seguin and Hamilton?? I don't think anyone, for a very long time, has argued the value and skill that Kessel brings to the table. So, again, what is your point??

To the poster who said that Seguin would not have gotten 82 pts in Toronto. That is a hypothetical that can not be reasonably argumed one way or the other. You, I, or no one else knows what Seguin would or would not have done in TO.

Finally, to everyone who is comparing these players straight up: Kessel has 3 more years in the NHL than Seguin. I don't think it is fair to compare players season to season straight up. Take a closer look at Kessel's first 3 seasons in the NHL and Seguin's first 3 seasons. That is a more reasonable comparison. It's close. Very close. What is going to tell the tail of this trade is the next 2-3 years. If Seguin and Hamilton continue to do what they have done to this point in their careers, it's hard to give a trade to a team getting one great player but giving up the draft picks that landed two great players.

I understand the logic that the team who gets the best players often wins the trade however, I'm a simple math guy:

2 is greater than 1

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Guest9848
( )

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  07:42:08  Reply with Quote
Seguin and Hamilton combined regular season points = 137
Seguin and Hamilton combined regular season games played = 245
Seguin and Hamilton regular season ppg = 0.55

Kessel regular season points = 253
Kessel regular season games played = 282
Kessel regular season ppg = 0.89

Seguin career playoff points = 13
Seguin career playoff games played = 31
Seguin career playoff ppg = 0.4

Kessel career playoff points = 21
Kessel career playoff games played = 22
Kessel career playoff pp = 0.95

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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4607 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  07:48:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Couple of things:

Duke, I have no idea what your point is. In one post you are praising Kessel as the 2nd Messiah and in the next post you are saying you would not take Kessel over both Seguin and Hamilton?? I don't think anyone, for a very long time, has argued the value and skill that Kessel brings to the table. So, again, what is your point??

To the poster who said that Seguin would not have gotten 82 pts in Toronto. That is a hypothetical that can not be reasonably argumed one way or the other. You, I, or no one else knows what Seguin would or would not have done in TO.

Finally, to everyone who is comparing these players straight up: Kessel has 3 more years in the NHL than Seguin. I don't think it is fair to compare players season to season straight up. Take a closer look at Kessel's first 3 seasons in the NHL and Seguin's first 3 seasons. That is a more reasonable comparison. It's close. Very close. What is going to tell the tail of this trade is the next 2-3 years. If Seguin and Hamilton continue to do what they have done to this point in their careers, it's hard to give a trade to a team getting one great player but giving up the draft picks that landed two great players.

I understand the logic that the team who gets the best players often wins the trade however, I'm a simple math guy:

2 is greater than 1

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





Yes, that math is indeed very simple, Beans. Simplistic.

And the poster did reasonably argue his point that Seguin would not have gotten 82 points, and I'll jump on board in agreeing with him. It may not be a fair comparison, since Seguin is younger, but it's one that holds some logic, and can be defended easily enough. It's an opinion just like yours, Beans, and he's allowed to have it.

Just like you are allowed to hold you "simple math" statement as a banner, let it flap in the wind and we can do simple math for every trade . . . whoever got more players wins, and if it's an even number of players, it's a tie.

If you bothered to ever listen to commentators from Boston during the playoffs . . . you'd have heard surprisingly similar things said about Seguin as were said about Kessel by his naysayers when he first got to Toronto, btw.


"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  08:47:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest9848

Seguin and Hamilton combined regular season points = 137
Seguin and Hamilton combined regular season games played = 245
Seguin and Hamilton regular season ppg = 0.55

Kessel regular season points = 253
Kessel regular season games played = 282
Kessel regular season ppg = 0.89

Seguin career playoff points = 13
Seguin career playoff games played = 31
Seguin career playoff ppg = 0.4

Kessel career playoff points = 21
Kessel career playoff games played = 22
Kessel career playoff pp = 0.95



Your adding career playoff points while Kessel played in Boston. That is why if you look at prior posts you will see the same stats posted post the trade. Seguin scored a few more points last night, because his team is still in the playoffs, while Kessel is golfing. Give Seguin, Hamilton and Knight a few more years and relook at these stats, if these are the only stats your gonna use to justify this trade. In the meantime Boston, partially because of this trade, continues to have success post season and in season with the depth provided.

I think the best way to get the stats people to understand that points per game is not the only way to judge players is to ask a simple question. Who would your rather have, Yserman in his first 5 years being the points machine he was, but not as responsible in his own end, or when he changed his game to become one of the greatest 2way players to play the game which resulted in his team hoisting the cup and lowered his points per game. Seguin is clearly learning early in his career that a good 2way game is what Boston wants, while 1 dimensional players are expendable. All that being said his goal totals are similar to Kessel who is 3 years his senior in their young careers. This trade is only going to get more slanted as the years go by with the other players adding contributions to Bostons success.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  11:59:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lol...10 pages and counting..

Beans, if you not getting the point i`m making by reading between the lines....i`ll explain it to you.

Yes, on one hand i`m defending kessel by saying he is a great player and i`m very glad the leafs have him, ..very true

On the other head i`m saying i would trade kessel for ( Seguin and Hamiliton together ) ...very true

You see Beans, all leaf fans are not looking through blue glasses 24 / 7.....most leaf fans are very knowledgeable of the game, we just cheer for a team that outsiders hate so much.......they don`t want to hear what leafers say anyway.

My point is, as much as i like kessel and what he has done for the leafs, i would not be so stupid as to NOT move him for a ( young ) pending # 1 center and possibly a potential 1st pairing defenseman.......

Plenty of teams have great players who they would like to keep forever....but.....if the right deal comes along to benefit the team, keep the team younger....these players are gone, thats only common sense.

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Beans15
Moderator



Canada
8190 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  12:09:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke, do you get dizzy with the amount of flip flopping you do???


The question is who won the trade???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!

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Guest9848
( )

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  13:54:31  Reply with Quote
ok i will only post kessels playoff points with Toronto

Games played = 7
Points = 6
PPG = 0.85

Seguin
Games played = 31
points = 13
ppg = 0.4

saying that Seguin is still in the playoffs while Kessel is golfing is stupid

Boston is not in the playoffs because of Seguin

Torontos success has a big part to do with Kessel simple Seguin would not have 82 points on Toronto in a season where they came 3rd last in the east
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  15:08:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why do you think Boston would have had all the success if they didn't make this trade? They needed to clear cap space the year Toronto made that amazing offer, so they would have had to give up something. Sequin was the best player for the Bruins outside of Thomas the year they won the cup in the post season for long stretches. Sequin last year was the number 1 points getter and has been pointed out many, many, many times over 10 pages, so many I dont want to point this out again, is a better 2way player, which has maybe brought them as much success as the points Kessel provides the Leafs.

People who can only point out stats to prove a point but disregard any other arguement

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  16:26:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15

Duke, do you get dizzy with the amount of flip flopping you do???


The question is who won the trade???

Ottawa, the best coached team in the NHL, with MVP like players such as Chris Neil, will win the Cup in 2013!





I often think this 10 page debate debacle could be finished by asking this:
If you were a GM, would you rather have Kessel or Seguin, Hamilton and Knight?

However, some Leafers still would say Kessel so i guess this will drag on......
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Guest2774
( )

Posted - 05/24/2013 :  17:51:25  Reply with Quote
I think this must be the greatest debate in pickuphockey history. Ill let some of you older folk be the judge but in the recent past last three years this one cant be beat.
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  11:44:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok Beans, i`ll answer you question directly....

Right now......Toronto wins the trade hands down. Without kessel, NO PLAYOFFS for Toronto.

2 -4 years down the road, Boston ends up on top.

Joshua, are u kidding me....Seguin was Bostons best player outside of T. Thomas ???

Do you Ott fans realize what you lost when the franchise didn`t resign Z. Chara ??
5 Seguins......equals.....1 ...Z . Chara....nah Chara still wins

What about D. Kej...P. Berg...M. Luc...B. Marc....N. Hort ??...you think Seguin out-played all these guys during the playoff run ??

Boston would NEVER have a stanley cup without Chara....Never, no way....any1 else, excluding T. Thomas and they could have still won the cup
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  13:30:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I will give you that Chara is a franchise player and a beast, but he didn't score the series winning goal and lead the team in scoring which is all you have been pointing to when justifying Kessels trade.

quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Ok Beans, i`ll answer you question directly....

Right now......Toronto wins the trade hands down. Without kessel, NO PLAYOFFS for Toronto.

2 -4 years down the road, Boston ends up on top.

Joshua, are u kidding me....Seguin was Bostons best player outside of T. Thomas ???

Do you Ott fans realize what you lost when the franchise didn`t resign Z. Chara ??
5 Seguins......equals.....1 ...Z . Chara....nah Chara still wins

What about D. Kej...P. Berg...M. Luc...B. Marc....N. Hort ??...you think Seguin out-played all these guys during the playoff run ??

Boston would NEVER have a stanley cup without Chara....Never, no way....any1 else, excluding T. Thomas and they could have still won the cup



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest4350
( )

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  13:52:08  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Ok Beans, i`ll answer you question directly....

Right now......Toronto wins the trade hands down. Without kessel, NO PLAYOFFS for Toronto.

2 -4 years down the road, Boston ends up on top.

Joshua, are u kidding me....Seguin was Bostons best player outside of T. Thomas ???

Do you Ott fans realize what you lost when the franchise didn`t resign Z. Chara ??
5 Seguins......equals.....1 ...Z . Chara....nah Chara still wins

What about D. Kej...P. Berg...M. Luc...B. Marc....N. Hort ??...you think Seguin out-played all these guys during the playoff run ??

Boston would NEVER have a stanley cup without Chara....Never, no way....any1 else, excluding T. Thomas and they could have still won the cup

Puh-lease. Stop deflecting. This is Kessel trade not Ottawa losing Chara. That is such a dirty politician thing to do when they know they are in trouble.

Without the Kessel trade Boston would have been in cap purgatory and unable to get the depth they needed to win the cup. This is not about Kessel only. This is about how trading him for really good but low cost players allowed Boston to be a beast that they have been since the trade.

Remember Seguin's first and second game of the Tampa series. He registered 7 points in those 2 games. For those two games, he was the best player for the Bruins even better than Tim Thomas and Chara.

All that Toronto have won since the trade got the honour of paying Kessel $5.25M per year for his services for 3 consecutive years of playoff-less seasons. Only now has the after effects of the trade finally wore off and their available drafts finally became sufficiently productive that they made the playoffs.

Argue all you want with your fancy schmancy blue tinted glasses, short term or long term Boston won this trade and the margin gets wider the longer the term.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  16:40:19  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Guest 4350 - don't you realize that Seguin's contributions in those key Tampa Bay games, when Bergy was injured, are totally IRRELEVANT to this conversation, as is a contribution to a CUP in general!

Geeeeez 4350, even if we consider the silly Tampa Bay games point, clearly you don't get that with Phil the Bruins would never have been in danger in that or any series as he would be racking up the points and game winning goals left and right. I mean, IRREFUTABLE evidence is 2009 when the Bruins just DOMINATED the playoffs (well, a handful of games of them) with Phil, Chara, yes the same Chara who equals 5 Seguins, Thomas, AND Marc Savard by the way.

So PLEEEEEEASE, do NOT mention those Tampa Bay games Guest. The Bruins CLEARLY were a Cup-winning team with Phil two years before them. In fact, I think the Bruins should apply for a RETROACTIVE CUP as it is just so fundamentally obvious that any team with Phil, Chara (he equals 5 Seguins in case you forgot) and Thomas is RIGHTFULLY the CUP winner!!!!!

Argument CLOSED - Very bad trade by PC, as not only did TS not help in any significant way with the 2011 Cup (4 points in a game with Bergy out and everyone watching him - pleaessssssse I said "significant"), but PK is NOT getting nearly enough credit for helping to bring the Cup to Boston in 2009!!!!!!!

Edited by - andyhack on 05/27/2013 21:52:49
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  17:32:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

Ok Beans, i`ll answer you question directly....

Right now......Toronto wins the trade hands down. Without kessel, NO PLAYOFFS for Toronto.

2 -4 years down the road, Boston ends up on top.

Joshua, are u kidding me....Seguin was Bostons best player outside of T. Thomas ???

Do you Ott fans realize what you lost when the franchise didn`t resign Z. Chara ??
5 Seguins......equals.....1 ...Z . Chara....nah Chara still wins

What about D. Kej...P. Berg...M. Luc...B. Marc....N. Hort ??...you think Seguin out-played all these guys during the playoff run ??

Boston would NEVER have a stanley cup without Chara....Never, no way....any1 else, excluding T. Thomas and they could have still won the cup



I'd agree that Seguin wasn't necessarily "their best player outside of TT", but he did contribute and it's fair to say they may not have won the cup without him. Where i'm left shaking my head though Duke, is this "Right now....Toronto wins this trade hands down....."? Really? So the Leafs making the playoffs for one round just once, is better than the Bruins making it EVERY year AND having a cup win to boot? Let's not forget, they could very well have a second cup win!

Lemme ask you this......If TO wins this trade HANDS DOWN right now, what happens if the Bruins go on to win the cup this year? Is the trade still at that point, tilted in TO's favour???
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  20:45:15  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andyhack

Guest 4350 - don't you relaize that Seguin's contributions in those key Tampa Bay games, when Bergy was injured, are totally IRRELEVANT to this conversation, as is a contribution to a CUP in general!

Geeeeez 4350, even if we consider the silly Tampa Bay games point, clearly you don't get that with Phil the Bruins would never have been in danger in that or any series as he would be racking up the points and game winning goals left and right. I mean, IRREFUTABLE evidence is 2009 when the Bruins just DOMINATED the playoffs (well, a handful of games of them) with Phil, Chara, yes the same Chara who equals 5 Seguins, Thomas, AND Marc Savard by the way.

So PLEEEEEEASE, do NOT mention those Tampa Bay games Guest. The Bruins CLEARLY were a Cup-winning team with Phil two years before them. In fact, I think the Bruins should apply for a RETROACTIVE CUP as it is just so fundamentally obvious that any team with Phil, Chara (he equals 5 Seguins in case you forgot) and Thomas is RIGHTFULLY the CUP winner!!!!!

Argument CLOSED - Very bad trade by PC, as not only did TS not help in any significant way with the 2011 Cup (4 points in a game with Bergy out everyone watching him - pleaessssssse I said "significant"), but PK is NOT getting nearly enough credit for helping to bring the Cup to Boston in 2009!!!!!!!

I think we have a contender and likely shoo-in winner of the best post of the year. That was awesome.
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 05/27/2013 :  21:59:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Guest 9808. But personally my favorite (of my posts anyway) is the conversation between Peter Chiarelli and Brian Burke several pages back - though it's VERY LONG, I admit.


Edited by - andyhack on 05/27/2013 22:12:41
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2013 :  20:43:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well looks like i got every1 dander up lol...thats what i`m talking about...some good posts to remove the boredom

Alex, this post is about ..who won the phil kessel trade ??...nothing else...

Andyhack can go on and on about Boston did this and that ..blah, blah , blah all he wants but all those points he is writing about is Boston`s team accomplishments...not about the trade...

Yes, i said right now Toronto wins this trade, maybe not down the road, but kessel is doing more for the leafs right now than Seguin is doing for the Bruins.

Did you watch the Leafs / Bruins series ?? kessel was outstanding for the leafs in that series....i didn`t see Seguin do Jack s$$t....lot of skating and some shots on goal....guess what.....Graboski did that for Toronto BUT NO RESULTS...

What did Seguin have ??...1 lousy point in game 7 ??...BIG WOOPEE....i think he had 1 point anyway....did he ??

You can`t look at what the Bruins have done as a team

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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2013 :  20:50:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Andyhack, could you please do me a favor and look up kessels point totals for the last 2 regular seasons / then do the same for Seguin....and then post them below for me ??

After you have done this explain to me again how Seguin is better than kessel ??....

When you do, i don`t need to read a Boston history lesson, just focus on kessel vs Seguin....thank - you
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 05/29/2013 :  23:17:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

.....Yes, i said right now Toronto wins this trade, maybe not down the road, but kessel is doing more for the leafs right now than Seguin is doing for the Bruins.....

...You can`t look at what the Bruins have done as a team...



Duke, please tell me you are just posting anything now with the hope of keeping this thread alive, the way you are flip-flopping like an air-deprived carp, is starting to make me want to start calling you the Sybil of PUH! (hope the older guys get the reference).

You start of on page 1, saying yeah, Boston may have won this one, but got hosed on some other irrelevant trade,..... progressed to doing your best William Wallace impersonation, standing up to the thought that the trade is Kessel vs. Seguin and Hamilton, and that TO wins because it's a better deal for the team...... to arguing that the trade is Kessel vs. Seguin, and has nothing to do with the effect the trade had on each team!

It must take you an extra hour to get to work each day, with each of your multiple personalities arguing whether to turn left or right at each intersection!

You then say what I quoted about Kessel doing more for the Leafs than Seguin does for the Bruins, which to me seems like your analogy that the Leafs making the playoffs, apparently mostly because of Phil by your reasoning, is of more import than the Bruins not only winning the Stanley Cup once, but making the playoffs each year and having another shot at the cup this year!

That's sort of like saying Kessel is the smartest guy on the special bus and because he didn't poop his pants yet, he's doing better than an M.I.T. student!

The other thing I quoted is your statement about not looking at what Boston is doing as a team?????

Why did they ever make the trade then? Because Burke had pictures of Chiarelli in a tutu, and he had to do it? Because Phil Kessel said. "I want to be a Leaf, just ask some Canadian named Duke, all us players want to be a Leaf"?

I am guessing that the trade was made because Boston didn't want to pay Phil what he wanted, necessitating a trade that would allow Phil to go somewhere else, whilst hopefully helping the Bruins build/add to their roster.

No arguing Kessel going to Toronto gave Leaf fans someone to idolize(no Crock 'o' Sh*te, idolize doesn't mean rub down with vegetable oil, sorry), and have a face for their franchise, and as that goes Toronto got exactly that.

Boston got high draft picks that turned out to be very useful players, that have helped them to continue to be an arguably dominant team for multiple seasons consecutively now, plus a Cup in there.

In almost 4 years since the trade, Boston has 1 cup, 3 playoffs berths. Toronto has 1 playoff berth and got knocked out in the 1st round by the same team you are saying didn't gain as much from the original trade.

That was the original question wasn't it? Who won the Kessel trade?

Not sure how you can't call this a Boston win, and it has even been mentioned that this might even be considered somewhat of a draw based only on Toronto's needs vs what the 2 teams have actually accomplished, but you still insist Toronto wins 'hands down'?

Careful friend, keep this going and you'll start to make me believe an old poster named Hanley may have been a reasonable Leafer in his day, and Sahis does good video review!!

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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro



Japan
891 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2013 :  06:55:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Duke,

Here are the point totals for the last two seasons that you requested. Am I a cooperative old history teacher or what?

Seguin
2011-12 81 29 38 67
2012-13 48 16 16 32

Kessel
2011-12 82 37 45 82
2012-13 48 20 32 52

As for the explanation as to how Seguin is better, I repeat something I said way back on this thread (in addition to history, you might consider valuing READING COMPREHENSION a little more by the way).

"I am NOT saying Seguin is the better player because of the Cup. I mean (and I'm trying to be polite here), but please read my earlier post more closely. One of the main points is that Kessel can end up being a far better player than Seguin and Boston can still be ahead in who won this trade. I admit that if that happens the question becomes a lot more interesting.”

How can Boston still be ahead even if we assume that Kessel's point totals over the last two years automatically mean that he is the "better" player (which of course is a ridiculous assumption given that points are not the be all and end all of what measures a player)? Well, if the team accomplishes more without Phil than they did with him, that might be one way. In other words, theoretically, a team can be ahead even if they get absolutely nothing in exchange for someone, even if that individual goes on to be a superstar, IF there was somehow addition by subtraction to the team by way of the trade (which is an interesting point to consider here, but not my main point).

My point is that TS’s “big game” was a significant ACTUAL (non-hypothetical) "benefit" to Boston from the trade. “Team accomplishments” (which you don’t seem to have much respect for) come in part from the contributions of individuals, as any reasonable thinker knows. Into year three of this trade one of these players has made a key contribution to what led to a playoff series victory on the way to a Cup. Wasn’t anywhere near all him by any means, of course. But neither was it 1/100th him. I don’t know exactly how to rank the contribution but it very likely was one of the top 5 reasons they were able to get by Tampa Bay. I would call that significant.

So, please let me correct your wording when you say

“all those points he [andyhack] is writing about is Boston`s team accomplishments”

What you should have said is,

“all those points he [andyhack] is writing about is Tyler Seguin’s key contribution to Boston`s team accomplishments”.

Edited by - andyhack on 05/30/2013 06:58:01
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1910 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2013 :  08:09:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Boston with Sequin is in the 3rd round with the other key contributors of this trade, while Kessel is only talked about in this forum. The salary for his contributions have eclipsed the sum total of what Boston is paying for 2 more rounds of playoffs on all of what Boston received. Not saying Sequin is the main man or reason for the 3rd round berth in Boston, but at this time of the year Sequin is playing and Kessel has yet to play NHL hockey in June.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5808 Posts

Posted - 05/30/2013 :  16:42:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke


Alex, this post is about ..who won the phil kessel trade ??...nothing else...



Not sure what you meant by this (above) as it's exactly what i was talking about, but then again, i don't understand most of your flip flopping posts on this thread. To imply that because Kessel had more points than Sequin in their head to head series means Toronto won the trade "hands down" is ludicrous and makes you look silly. In arguing that Kessel is better, you're now conveniently leaving out the other parts of the deal AND the contributions that those parts along with Seguin have and will contribute! A key thing to remember is D. Hamilton's upside. It's HUGE! We have to wait to see if he reaches it, but safe to say he's a big part of that deal. You can argue Kessel Vs Seguin straight up, but that wasn't the deal here!
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Leafs81
PickupHockey Pro



716 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  19:37:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think what most Leafers are trying to say... and people just keeps bringing it back is... You're better off to have Seguin and Hamilton because they are two promising players. BUT... at the time of the trade, it was not set in stones that those were the two players. It was not set in stones that Boston would get 2nd overall and 8th overall. Even many players gets drafted in the top ten and never have a significant career in the NHL. PLUS... Kessel is not too shabby either being a constant goal scorer, one of the NHL players that scores the most goals in recent memory. And plus being in top ten in scoring for the past two years. All that and he is now a more complete players while he's using the players around him to create offense and is better in his own end.

Case close... no?
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 05/31/2013 :  20:57:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So would those same Leafers say that any trade involving draft picks is an unfavorable one then? The team that gives up a player for 'only' draft picks then is the loser of that trade? The team 'only' having to give up draft picks is the winner?

Or is that only this time?

What those of us on the side of reason are trying to say, is that the eventual players chosen with those picks, combined with what the benefit for each team was, plus what the future holds from the result of that trade, determines who may have 'won' the trade. And there are even some of us, who agree it was a good deal for the Leafs, based on their immediate need, but have no choice but rebut when it is stated, 'the Leafs won this hands down', and such.

Now maybe case closed?
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  11:18:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fat Elvis, believe me i`m just as sick of this kessel debate as you and every1 else. I keep posting just to defend my comments because again what i posted is being twisted around to say something that i never said...in full. ....

Leaf haters ( i guess they are ) seem to read leaf lover`s postings and re-post what they want to read, what they want to see.

You just made a remark that ( a leafer ) posted,.......

Toronto wins this trade hands down

You see this is the only segment you picked out of my post and re- posted. You see another reader who looks at this will say, this guy only wears blue glasses.....you only posted half of the truth of my post, why didn`t you re-post the rest of my comment ??

If you read my post, i assume you did, i posted.....

RIGHT NOW...Toronto wins this trade hands down.....( and i think they do ) considering what kessel did for the leafs in the playoffs and regular season......

In that same post i said......
2 - 4 years down the road...Boston wins this trade........

I watched the whole Leafs / Boston series, Seguin had one assist....Hamiliton played good, no mistakes but nothing over and above the norm....................Kessel played excellent for the leafs and was a major, major factor in that series for Toronto.........Bottom line is, without kessel the leafs would never taken Boston to a seven game series.......without Seguin and Hamiliton, Boston still wins that series.

This is why i posted......RIGHT NOW.....Toronto wins the trade hands down.......2 - 4 years down the road....Boston wins the trade.....

NOT what you just simply posted was said ......Toronto wins the trade hands down........BIG difference

Seguin and Hamiliton will be great players for Boston for sure in the future but right now, the Bruins would still be winning on the same pace as they are without either one of them.........Toronto on the other hand would be reeling downward without kessel`s goals and play-making.

Leafs are a NON - playoff team without kessel.......

Boston is still a possible divisional leader without Seguin and Hamilition.......

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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  11:42:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If I agreed that Toronto win this trade right now, which I don't.

SInce you want to mention ability to read entire posts, I will send it back to you re-read entire threads. My tongue in cheek diatribe about your flipping your debate to suit your point repeatedly was obviously missed.

You say they win RIGHT NOW because Kessel outplayed Seguin and Hamilton. You spent most of the entire thread, arguing that you can't compare player to player because the trade was Kessel for draft picks, yet now, that is your basis for why Toronto wins this trade hands down right now...your words.

I am not so much sick of the topic, but find it amusing how you in particular keep wanting it to stay alive by, as I mentioned altering your reality to suit your argument, fair enough but expect to get called on it.

Toronto made the playoffs, great, and apparently a huge milestone for them, good for them, good for the fans. Boston has continued to make the playoffs every year and again look to go deep this year, already at the conference finals. Again, comparing team to team and the effect of the trade, how can you argue that Boston has not done better? Yes, Kessel got more points than Seguin and Hamilton, yes, he is the goal scorer that Toronto needed, yes, he is everything you say he is, but he isn't on a contending team. Boston remains a contending team.

The question was 'who won the Kessel trade', not which players are better of the Kessel trade, or anything of the sort. How you continue to debate that Boston hasn't proven the trade to benefit them as much or more than Toronto after their continued success vs Toronto's first entry in to the playoffs, to only be dispatched by the team we are discussing is beyond me. Again, yes Kessel got more points than Seguin and Hamilton in the first round, but that's all he saw, the firt round, the other two are still around in June.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  11:57:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke


I watched the whole Leafs / Boston series, Seguin had one assist....Hamiliton played good, no mistakes but nothing over and above the norm....................Kessel played excellent for the leafs and was a major, major factor in that series for Toronto.........Bottom line is, without kessel the leafs would never taken Boston to a seven game series.......without Seguin and Hamiliton, Boston still wins that series.

This is why i posted......RIGHT NOW.....Toronto wins the trade hands down.......2 - 4 years down the road....Boston wins the trade.....




Okay, I hope I included enough of your post to avoid perceived cherry picking...

That particular section is ludicrous, plain and simple. You want to avoid being called a fan with blue tinted glasses, yet you post this. You or I have absolutely no way of saying what could have happened, if Seguin and Hamilton didn't play, it's not all about the points, as I'm sure you know, and I too watched the series, to say Seguin and Hamilton played, insignificant, and 'good', is misleading. They did their jobs, helping the Bruins advance, can the same be said about Phil in that regard?

The whole Leafs team had to play well to take Boston to 7 games, and they did, certain players having big games during their series helped, not all Kessel as your post implies. That being said, they still lost to Boston, and the Bruins are still playing, IMO, meaning they have already, are still, and will in the future, win this trade.

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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1041 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  12:19:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Elvis, you keep dwelling on the fact that Boston is still playing and the leafs are out of the playoffs.

You do realize of course that the Bruins had a true stanley cup contending team even BEFORE the Kessel for draft picks trade ??

Right now the Rask for Raycroft trade is having a bigger impact for Boston this season than the kessel trade.......now this is one deal that still leaves a huge sour taste in my mouth has a leaf fan.

I know Boston is still playing but mainly because of Chara, Rask, Krecji, Lucic, Marchand etc.....not so much as Seguin / Hamiliton...sure they are contributing factors but not major ones like the main stays of Bostons team.

I`ll ask you a question, just give me an honest answer.......

Right now, in your opinion......( from here on in ) would the Bruins have a better chance to win the stanley cup this season with .....

option 1.
Seguin and Hamiliton for the rest of the way ?

option 2
kessel up front ?

lol.....i`m not impling anything...what do you think ?
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  14:04:58  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
I`ll ask you a question, just give me an honest answer.......

Right now, in your opinion......( from here on in ) would the Bruins have a better chance to win the stanley cup this season with .....

option 1.
Seguin and Hamiliton for the rest of the way ?

option 2
kessel up front ?


Well with Kessel they would not have the type of cap space to afford the depth that Seguin and Hamilton gives them. So they would be better with Seguin and Hamilton - yesterday, today and in the future.
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Guest2763
( )

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  15:06:35  Reply with Quote
very valid point. cap space is a very important aspect of this trade that very few are talking about.
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  15:54:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There was an episode of the Simpson's where Homer was searching for the Loch Ness Monster, aided by Prof. Frink(?), the Jerry Lewis guy, not sure if that's the right name. The professor looks through his 'Monster Locator', and sees the beast, but realizes quickly that he had actually been looking through his 'Frog Exaggerator', not his 'Monster Locator' and what he saw was not really Nessy, but a small frog.

I think the Toronto media, and many of Leafs' fans have been looking at Phil Kessel through their Frog Exaggerators.



The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  17:23:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Honest answer Duke, Phil's about as needed in Boston as you seem to think Seguin and Hamilton are, in your words, the Boston team would be fine without any of them.

If you think that leads me to have to concede that Toronto got the better deal because of this, and therefore Phil becomes god-like in Toronto, but spare parts in Boston, it only reinforces my thoughts that you can't see the trees in the forest because of the Leafs in your brain.

Again,I will reiterate myself in a quesion back to you, when did the actual players involved become the mainstay of your opinion? Also, how are judging who won the trade? What criteria? If your criteria is that Phil alone, made the Leafs that much better and that he is solely responsible for their playoff berth, and he is solely the reason they can even be considered competitive, then yes, I would agree they 'won' the trade.

If that is your opinion, then I am unsure how to even continue to debate the trade, as that would put you in class of your own, maybe even make you the Leafs master-debater.

Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 06/03/2013 08:18:57
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