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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  19:36:16  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke
You do realize of course that the Bruins had a true stanley cup contending team even BEFORE the Kessel for draft picks trade ??

Cup contender does not equal cup winner. Did you not read Andyhack's post on page 10?

In case you have reading comprehension issues, retroactively the NHL is awarding the cup to Phil Kessel. So instead of Anaheim, Detroit and Pittsburgh as the Cup winner in 2006-07, 07-08 and 08-09, it is Phil Kessel. That's right a single player and not the franchise because we know that Phil was ultimately responsible for win but for his team mates.

The NHL is further reviewing the wins by Chicago and Boston. They may consider to retroactively award the Cup for 09-10 and 10-11 to Phil Kessel also because we all know that the Leafs were not only cup contenders but champs if it wasn't for the other players on the team. Keep the argument up and the Leafs can say that Phil Kessel won the cup for them (retroactively).
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Guest2282
( )

Posted - 06/02/2013 :  21:03:41  Reply with Quote
I certainly know two things from reading all of these posts.

1.) Theres an awful lot of animosity towards Mr. kessel and

2.) This world holds a whole lot of leaf haters.
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
207 Posts

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  06:12:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
can't believe as a Leaf fan i've been holding my tongue on this debate for so long now. so i guess it's time i chimed in and added my two cents.....
no point in dangling around the topic, let's just answer the question: Who won the Phil Kessel trade? simply put the answer is Boston. i don't think there should be any arguing that.
sorry to Duke and my other fellow Leafers who've been debating this tooth and nail for 11 pages now. i love Kessel as a player. i love the way he's developed into a more complete player these last 4 seasons, playing both ends of the ice and showing more and more skills as a play maker and not just a goal scorer. he was arguably Toronto's most dangerous player in the playoffs this year, with 6 pts in 7 games and going +3. HOWEVER......despite all that, i still don't think he's worth all three of Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. and that's what it comes down to.

i will say this though......if Kessel wins the Stanley Cup while wearing a Toronto Maple Leaf jersey on his back, then i'd argue that the trade was worth it for Toronto. not necessarily that they WON the trade, but only that it ended up being worth it.
at the same time, if Kessel ends up bolting as a UFA next summer, basically leaving us only with 5 seasons of highlights and memories, then this trade ends up being a complete and utter failure and this whole debate should officially come to an end.

but Boston won this trade. yesterday, today, tomorrow......Boston still wins this trade. i always look at it this way: if Boston called up Toronto and says "we'll give you Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight in exchange for Kessel", Toronto makes this deal everytime without even thinking about it. i think they'd be ridiculous not to.
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/03/2013 :  18:36:01  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2282

I certainly know two things from reading all of these posts.
1.) Theres an awful lot of animosity towards Mr. kessel and
2.) This world holds a whole lot of leaf haters.

There is no animosity towards Kessel. He is a good player. But to use ridiculous arguments to put Kessel on a pedestal far beyond reality by those with blue tinted glasses deserves an apt response.

There is no leaf hating either. There are only retorts to ridiculous leaf fans arguments (see many if not all of Duke's posts on this subject). Remember Chara is worth 5 Seguins (wow) or how about completely downgrading the impact of Seguin's contribution to the Stanley cup run where he posted 7 points in 2 games (double wow) to argue (woulda coulda shoulda) Kessel coulda done better if he was there. I could go on and on and on but I'll end with Mr. flip flopper like a fish out of water on just about anything he posted on the topic.
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Guest9100
( )

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  07:42:37  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Duke

So sick of this topic...

What about who won the Kaberle trade ?
Boston.....Thomas Kaberle...

Toronto....J.M. Liles - Joe Colbourne - and a 1st round pick.


LMFAOOOOOO J.M. Liles?????????????? we got him from Colorado
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  11:37:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper

can't believe as a Leaf fan i've been holding my tongue on this debate for so long now. so i guess it's time i chimed in and added my two cents.....
no point in dangling around the topic, let's just answer the question: Who won the Phil Kessel trade? simply put the answer is Boston. i don't think there should be any arguing that.
sorry to Duke and my other fellow Leafers who've been debating this tooth and nail for 11 pages now. i love Kessel as a player. i love the way he's developed into a more complete player these last 4 seasons, playing both ends of the ice and showing more and more skills as a play maker and not just a goal scorer. he was arguably Toronto's most dangerous player in the playoffs this year, with 6 pts in 7 games and going +3. HOWEVER......despite all that, i still don't think he's worth all three of Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. and that's what it comes down to.

i will say this though......if Kessel wins the Stanley Cup while wearing a Toronto Maple Leaf jersey on his back, then i'd argue that the trade was worth it for Toronto. not necessarily that they WON the trade, but only that it ended up being worth it.
at the same time, if Kessel ends up bolting as a UFA next summer, basically leaving us only with 5 seasons of highlights and memories, then this trade ends up being a complete and utter failure and this whole debate should officially come to an end.

but Boston won this trade. yesterday, today, tomorrow......Boston still wins this trade. i always look at it this way: if Boston called up Toronto and says "we'll give you Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight in exchange for Kessel", Toronto makes this deal everytime without even thinking about it. i think they'd be ridiculous not to.



Just to be fair,
I don't think it's a good analogy to say that if the current GM were willing to trade Kessel for Seguin, Hamilton and KNight right now that it's a "loss" for the Leafs.

For starters, I would wager that the Toronto GM would NOT, in fact, ever make that trade, even with no history or baggage attached to it (just on value). Maybe some GMs would, but I would actually wager most wouldn't . . . but of course it really depends on the circumstances, cap hits of teams, etc.

Most of the time, when a star player is dealt - at a calibre slightly below Kessel's current value and above - the team that gets them always has to overpay. It's just the nature of the way it works.

Kessel, in a trade, would be able to get more value than Seguin and Hamilton and Knight I'd wager . . . going by their current value.

Just my two cents.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  12:32:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo

Kessel, in a trade, would be able to get more value than Seguin and Hamilton and Knight I'd wager . . . going by their current value.

Just my two cents.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug



Hamilton and Knight are largely unproven right now. But I'd wager that Seguin would command more return than Kessel in a trade, right now. Seguin is a centre, has more dimensions than Kessel, and is younger/cheaper than Kessel

As a group, if BOS were stupid enough to trade all 3 of them together, they would certainly command more return than Kessel would.
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Guest2483
( )

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  17:32:25  Reply with Quote
I would agree, Seguin alone is worth more than Kessel. Dont see what all these leaf fans see in him really. he not in the top elite of the league.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  18:13:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok to flip this subject a little on its head, Kessel is signed now for $5.4 million but is a free agent after next season. Sequin is signed for $5.75 million for the next 6 years. That surprises me, as this mean next year Boston pays more for Sequin than Toronto pays for Kessel.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  18:21:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Bruins just may shed a few tears into the Stanley Cup over that inequity.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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Guest2282
( )

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  19:46:02  Reply with Quote
guest 9100....the leafs used a draft pick obtained from boston in the kaberle deal to obtain j.m . liles from colorado...........

so in laymans terms, so you can understand it

the leafs ended up with colbourne, j.m. liles and a 1st rounder for t. kaberle...........

l . m . f . a . o........do ur research before u fun - make dumb-ass

As for my ridiculous comments about the kessel deal..................... unlike some leaf haters, i think kessels point totals ( year in and year out ) make him a star player in this league and the leafs did well in this deal.....boston also benefited greatly too, i`ve never denied this.......i`ve just constantly put forth the fact that the leafs didn`t get ripped off as so many claim.

Some posters just simply back up my claims about kessel....guest 2483 just posted......i don`t know what leaf fans see in him really.....he is not in the top elite in the nhl....really ?

2011 - 2012 regular season kessel was 6 th...yes guest thats 6 th overall in league scoring. yes guest, only a total of 5 nhl players out - tscored kessel


But of course as you say ....he is not amongst the leagues elite...

kessel doesn`t garner the respect he deserves for some reason. Why, i don`t know......he just goes on putting the puck in the net and wacking up good numbers.

Slozo just pointed out that kessel would fetch more in a trade than Seguin and co.........maybe he would,....... but i wager that not many here will agree Slozo

nuxfan, why wouldn`t a 6th place overall league scorer ( in the last full nhl season ) , Phil kessel.......not fetch more than Seguin ?
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The Duke
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1039 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  19:47:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
sorry guest 2282 was me, forgot to log on.
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  21:48:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What was that??? Did anybody see that flash go by???? Did you hear the sonic boom???

Not to worry, it was just Duke zipping past any challenging rebuttals, to make sure his Strawman is still standing.

Honestly my friend....

You respond to a post referring to page 1, the 2nd post in the thread?? As stated then, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Not all of us and in fact, most I would think, don't disagree with your assessment of Kessel, he is a top tier player, he is what the Leafs needed to get them rebuilding and generate excitement for the team again, absolutely agree.

The problem I have is with that being the standard to make statements like you have about the Leafs winning this trade. If anything, it supports some of our arguments that with Phil being of such little use to the health of the Bruins, that they were able to get as much as they did, only further bolsters my opinion that they made out like bandits.

They got solid, contributing youth to continue their dominance in the East for years to come, for a guy, who, like I agreed, is a very good player, but couldn't be afforded by the Bruins.

They save the cap space to resign, and continue to pay those players that are truly core, and add talented youth, that are proving they are legitimate NHLers.

Yes, Kessel is the Leafs, I'll give you that, ....but it's still the Leafs, one playoff appearance does not a contender make, regardless of hype and excitement, I should know, I'm an Oilers fan!

As mentioned the only way this trade favors the Leafs is reliant on so many variables, it would take Dan Brown to write the script!

If the Leafs go deeper than 2 rounds next year, and the Bruins don't make the playoffs, and Seguin, Hamilton and Knight end up the minors for the rest of their careers, and Kessel has another regular season, finishing top 10 in scoring, and Kessel tears it up in the playoffs, scoring key goals aplenty, then maybe one could look at this trade as benefiting Toronto more, but that's a long list of ands there.

Anything less, the Bruins still win this trade, since the day it was done, today, and for the next forseeable future.


Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 06/04/2013 21:50:38
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fat_elvis_rocked
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
899 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2013 :  21:57:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
......Most of the time, when a star player is dealt - at a calibre slightly below Kessel's current value and above - the team that gets them always has to overpay. It's just the nature of the way it works.........


Forgive me for paraphrasing your post Slozo, I just want to point out this section, because it is refreshing to hear a true Leaf fan, not cop out using terms like Leaf-hater etc, and speak some truth.

For our friend Duke's benefit, can I the correctly assume that you are stating, that the Leafs, perhaps overpayed for Kessel?

Duke, overpaying is not usually a good thing, unless you're trying to be the East coast's version of Charlie Sheen and reason doesn't matter.....winning..duh!

Edited by - fat_elvis_rocked on 06/04/2013 22:01:10
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Guest2483
( )

Posted - 06/05/2013 :  04:44:00  Reply with Quote
Using the same Duke logic than, I am going say that David Krejci is by far the best player left playing in the NHL. he is better than Crosby, Malkin, Toews, and Kane as he is first in league scoring. We all know that this isn't true. this is the main point in the argument, points are not the absolute determination of the best player or who gets the better of a trade. their are so many other variables.
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nuxfan
PickupHockey All-Star



3582 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2013 :  09:17:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2282
nuxfan, why wouldn`t a 6th place overall league scorer ( in the last full nhl season ) , Phil kessel.......not fetch more than Seguin ?



- centres are more valuable than wingers, period, and top-2 centres are extremely valuable. They command a premium, if they become available at all. Teams generally don't trade the ones they have, and they're always looking for more. If someone like Seguin were to come available - a young centre with speed and skill, with the potential to be a top-line centre - I think the bidding war would go into the stratosphere.

- Kessel is single dimension - he is an offensive threat. I know he's been working on his defensive game, but it would be a huge stretch to call him a solid 2-way player at this point. When he goes cold (as he does quite often - I've held him in my pool 2 years running and get frustrated with the multi-week dry spells), he brings nothing else to the table.

- despite Kessel finishing top-10 in the NHL the past 2 years, Seguin has not exactly been slacking. He led the Bruins in scoring in 11/12 with 67 pts and kept up his production last year on a ppg basis.

I think comparative trade values would also heavily depend on what Kessel signs for this offseason. Is TOR going to open the vault for him? As you say, top-10 in scoring each of the past 2 seasons - I think he's going to be looking for 7M+ per season. Were a trade to come up for either player, would you rather have a 5.5M Seguin, or a 7M Kessel on your team?

Edited by - nuxfan on 06/05/2013 09:18:47
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2013 :  10:21:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by fat_elvis_rocked

quote:
Originally posted by slozo
......Most of the time, when a star player is dealt - at a calibre slightly below Kessel's current value and above - the team that gets them always has to overpay. It's just the nature of the way it works.........


Forgive me for paraphrasing your post Slozo, I just want to point out this section, because it is refreshing to hear a true Leaf fan, not cop out using terms like Leaf-hater etc, and speak some truth.

For our friend Duke's benefit, can I the correctly assume that you are stating, that the Leafs, perhaps overpayed for Kessel?

Duke, overpaying is not usually a good thing, unless you're trying to be the East coast's version of Charlie Sheen and reason doesn't matter.....winning..duh!



I would say that yes, especially at that time that the Leafs officially realised that they were giving the Bruins a #2 pick overall, that they overpaid for Kessel.

We can debate the merits of Burke guessing it was going to be a 15th or mid-range type pick instead, and thinking then (correclty) that it was a very fair price to pay for Kessel; but ifs and buts and candy and nuts aside, yes, overpayment.

I do believe however that Kessel's total value has grown into something above which even most Leafs fans would have predicted back then, and that has outweighed that effect somewhat. Additionally - and you have to ask Bruins fans, scope out their websites to get the full picture - Seguin is not this player of greater dimension that people here seem to think, in fact, during the Bruins/Leafs series, I heard their fans heap tonnes of crap on him for being too soft, not going into the corners, etc . . . very reminiscent of what they had said about Kessel.



"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 06/05/2013 :  10:31:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nuxfan

quote:
Originally posted by Guest2282
nuxfan, why wouldn`t a 6th place overall league scorer ( in the last full nhl season ) , Phil kessel.......not fetch more than Seguin ?



- centres are more valuable than wingers, period, and top-2 centres are extremely valuable. They command a premium, if they become available at all. Teams generally don't trade the ones they have, and they're always looking for more. If someone like Seguin were to come available - a young centre with speed and skill, with the potential to be a top-line centre - I think the bidding war would go into the stratosphere.

- Kessel is single dimension - he is an offensive threat. I know he's been working on his defensive game, but it would be a huge stretch to call him a solid 2-way player at this point. When he goes cold (as he does quite often - I've held him in my pool 2 years running and get frustrated with the multi-week dry spells), he brings nothing else to the table.

- despite Kessel finishing top-10 in the NHL the past 2 years, Seguin has not exactly been slacking. He led the Bruins in scoring in 11/12 with 67 pts and kept up his production last year on a ppg basis.

I think comparative trade values would also heavily depend on what Kessel signs for this offseason. Is TOR going to open the vault for him? As you say, top-10 in scoring each of the past 2 seasons - I think he's going to be looking for 7M+ per season. Were a trade to come up for either player, would you rather have a 5.5M Seguin, or a 7M Kessel on your team?



Honestly, I think you guys are nuts to even remotely think Seguin gets more than Kessel in terms of trade value!

Being a centre:
a minor point in Seguin's favour, but bottom line is this - all teams will overpay for top ten offensive talent, and that's just what Kessel has risen to in the last two and a half years

Seguin has speed and skill, but Kessel is faster and much more skilled.

Both are what could be considered "soft", but with Kessel's huge strides in that department, and after our last playoff series here, it's an edge to Kessel.

Seguins "cold streaks" have been longer and deeper than Kessel's, look it up. Kessel has been remarkably consistent for a star scoring forward, actually . . . this thing about him being such a hot and cold player is a bit of a fallacy, WHEN COMPARED TO THE REST OF HIS PEERS. Just a heads up here - ALL players go through hotter/colder streaks, it's the nature of sport.

Kessel is single dimensional . . . same as Seguin. Yep, the great Seguin is not a very good two way player, in fact, he has benefitted greatly from the Bruins being such a fantastic +/- team, which is why you can't just use this stat as a player defensive stat to base an opinion on.

All teams would like a 6.5 milliong Kessel rather than a 5million Seguin . . . because a 6.5, or 7, million Kessel IS more valuable.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest2483
( )

Posted - 06/05/2013 :  14:52:17  Reply with Quote
The sad thing is that I believe that in Toronto Kessel will get his 7 million per year because I think the fan base will force it on the new Toronto management. He will never get over 6 million per season anywhere else in the league. Thats a guarantee.
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2013 :  11:39:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper

can't believe as a Leaf fan i've been holding my tongue on this debate for so long now. so i guess it's time i chimed in and added my two cents.....
no point in dangling around the topic, let's just answer the question: Who won the Phil Kessel trade? simply put the answer is Boston. i don't think there should be any arguing that.
sorry to Duke and my other fellow Leafers who've been debating this tooth and nail for 11 pages now. i love Kessel as a player. i love the way he's developed into a more complete player these last 4 seasons, playing both ends of the ice and showing more and more skills as a play maker and not just a goal scorer. he was arguably Toronto's most dangerous player in the playoffs this year, with 6 pts in 7 games and going +3. HOWEVER......despite all that, i still don't think he's worth all three of Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight. and that's what it comes down to.

i will say this though......if Kessel wins the Stanley Cup while wearing a Toronto Maple Leaf jersey on his back, then i'd argue that the trade was worth it for Toronto. not necessarily that they WON the trade, but only that it ended up being worth it.
at the same time, if Kessel ends up bolting as a UFA next summer, basically leaving us only with 5 seasons of highlights and memories, then this trade ends up being a complete and utter failure and this whole debate should officially come to an end.

but Boston won this trade. yesterday, today, tomorrow......Boston still wins this trade. i always look at it this way: if Boston called up Toronto and says "we'll give you Seguin, Hamilton, and Knight in exchange for Kessel", Toronto makes this deal everytime without even thinking about it. i think they'd be ridiculous not to.



WOW Gipper! I can't believe this post has been all but ignored. It's pretty much spot on in my book! Well stated, reality realized, etc. Thanks for ending this thread. Well, at least you tried.
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slozo
Moderator



Canada
4580 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  06:12:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Guest2483

The sad thing is that I believe that in Toronto Kessel will get his 7 million per year because I think the fan base will force it on the new Toronto management. He will never get over 6 million per season anywhere else in the league. Thats a guarantee.



And I bet you never thought Semin would sign for a 7 mil, one year deal like he did with Carolina, right?

At this point, do you honestly think that Kessel will go for cheaper than Semin, IF the Leafs ever let him go on the free market? I can bet not. Kessel is better than Semin at this point in his career, hands down.

And way more consistent, lol.

"Take off, eh?" - Bob and Doug
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Guest9808
( )

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  07:47:18  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slozo
And I bet you never thought Semin would sign for a 7 mil, one year deal like he did with Carolina, right?

At this point, do you honestly think that Kessel will go for cheaper than Semin, IF the Leafs ever let him go on the free market? I can bet not. Kessel is better than Semin at this point in his career, hands down.

Kessel is better than Semin agreed, but not by that much. But Carolina initially overpaid Semin for $7M to go over the cap floor for that one year contract. Semin performed well, so the next qualifying offer by Carolina started at $7M.

If Kessel were to somehow hit the UFA market, then teams with massive cap space like say NYI or NJ would throw obscene money at Kessel. But this deflects the argument, Boston wins the trade.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  08:43:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow, I wake up everyday looking for good hockey chat, rumours and other such. Today I have ventured to the realm of stupid again. Now to justify the Kessel trade we are comparing him to a prolific scorer who has a label of being oft injured and lazy to justify this trade or future value. Semin who is a career + player, with a higher career PPG, GPG, APG and a former 40 goal season, 51 games of playoff experience and success is the new benchmark for Kessel? If these 2 were on the open market and Detroit/New York/Toronto/Vancouver were pitching an offer sheet, Semin would get the higher offer, but it would be shorter term than Kessel to keep him motivated as this is the only knock on him. He proved in Carolina without a playoff team he can still put up the points and be effective without Backstrom or Ovechin, which is why they offered him a longer termed contract.

Stats are a horrible way to based who is the better player as they rarely show the whole story. This is were stats go against a player as he has less career playoff experience, less career PPG, less career GPG, less career APG and is a career -minus player. I will give you that Kessel is more motivated and the last 2 years the stats show advantage Kessel, but put either player in a world championship or Olympics and see which collects the most points.

Again this arguement is pointless, as it in no way help to answer the question of who won the Kessel trade, which has always been Boston.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "

Edited by - JOSHUACANADA on 06/07/2013 08:54:58
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  09:28:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok I have to ask the posters who are on Toronto wins side of the debate. July hits and Edmonton offers up Nugent Hopkins, Hemsky in a trade to either Toronto or Boston. The players to be returned are either Kessel from Toronto, or Seguin, Knight and Hamilton from Boston.

In which scenerio does Edmonton get the better deal and which scenerio ensures them better regular season success?

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  09:42:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think Edmonton would choose Boston for Seguin, Knight and Hamilton in that trade scenerio over the return of just Kessel with 1 year remaining on his contract and pending negotiations. I think Seguin in Edmonton would put up similar, slightly lessor stats with better 2way play than Kessel would in Edmonton and the addition of the other players would add to the depth needed. Toronto if the trade happened would seem the winner, while Boston/Edmonton would look more like an even trade.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
207 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  10:54:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I think Edmonton would choose Boston for Seguin, Knight and Hamilton in that trade scenerio over the return of just Kessel with 1 year remaining on his contract and pending negotiations. I think Seguin in Edmonton would put up similar, slightly lessor stats with better 2way play than Kessel would in Edmonton and the addition of the other players would add to the depth needed. Toronto if the trade happened would seem the winner, while Boston/Edmonton would look more like an even trade.



ok, ok.....hold on a second here. this is in NO WAY a good comparison to Kessel's value as a player. of course Edmonton takes Boston's offer. for a few reasons...
1) giving up 2 players and getting 3 in return, rather then just 1.
2) trading your young no. 1 center, and getting a similar center in return (yes, Seguin plays the wing with Boston, but his natural position is center). instead of a getting top line RW, which you already have in Eberle.
3) in addition you get a young puck moving defencemen to play along side Schultz which immediately boosts your PP.
4) Kessel goes UFA in 1-year, where as Seguin is signed long-term and Hamilton is still on his entry-level contract.

not to mention that this trade is completely bogus and non-realistic because Boston would never offer up these three guys for a good young center and a 29 year old RW who's best days are arguably behind him.

come on Josh..........a dose of reality if you please!
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  14:15:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The_Gipper

quote:
Originally posted by JOSHUACANADA

I think Edmonton would choose Boston for Seguin, Knight and Hamilton in that trade scenerio over the return of just Kessel with 1 year remaining on his contract and pending negotiations. I think Seguin in Edmonton would put up similar, slightly lessor stats with better 2way play than Kessel would in Edmonton and the addition of the other players would add to the depth needed. Toronto if the trade happened would seem the winner, while Boston/Edmonton would look more like an even trade.



ok, ok.....hold on a second here. this is in NO WAY a good comparison to Kessel's value as a player. of course Edmonton takes Boston's offer. for a few reasons...
1) giving up 2 players and getting 3 in return, rather then just 1.
2) trading your young no. 1 center, and getting a similar center in return (yes, Seguin plays the wing with Boston, but his natural position is center). instead of a getting top line RW, which you already have in Eberle.
3) in addition you get a young puck moving defencemen to play along side Schultz which immediately boosts your PP.
4) Kessel goes UFA in 1-year, where as Seguin is signed long-term and Hamilton is still on his entry-level contract.

not to mention that this trade is completely bogus and non-realistic because Boston would never offer up these three guys for a good young center and a 29 year old RW who's best days are arguably behind him.

come on Josh..........a dose of reality if you please!



Love how you justify this as saying Boston would never do this trade and of course Edmonton would take this trade. Never once did you mention how Kessel would relate to this trade as it isn't equitable value. Yet we have all been subjected to 11 pages of dribble of how Toronto won this trade. How you like that reality.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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The_Gipper
Rookie



Canada
207 Posts

Posted - 06/07/2013 :  17:22:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Love how you justify this as saying Boston would never do this trade and of course Edmonton would take this trade. Never once did you mention how Kessel would relate to this trade as it isn't equitable value. Yet we have all been subjected to 11 pages of dribble of how Toronto won this trade. How you like that reality.



uh, not sure i understand what you're saying here.... you want me to justify a trade scenario that you came up with?
NO, Boston would never do this trade.
YES, Edmonton would.
as far as Kessel, well i just think it's a bad example to use as a comparison because, like i said before, Edmonton would never trade their top center for a top line RW when they already have one in Eberle.
but in terms of value, RIGHT NOW i would say that Kessel has more value then both RNH and Hemsky together. however that doesn't mean that Edmonton would make the trade. i still say they don't.

and the "dribble" as you put it.......i never said Toronto won this trade. read my earlier post. i was pretty clear in saying Boston won the trade. but thanks for helping the "dribble" last this much longer.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/08/2013 :  08:17:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I never said you posted the dribble on the side of Toronto winning the trade. But there are 11 pages of dribble none the less.

Do you really think Kessel has better value than Hemsky and Nugent Hopkins combined? Hemsky's best days are behind him at 29 but Nugent-Hopkins are still in front of him. I used this example because I believed combined both players had greater value than Kessel.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest2757
( )

Posted - 06/09/2013 :  14:53:12  Reply with Quote
After Seguin hoists the stanley cup for the second time and Hamilton for the first this trade is going to measured very differently from now on.
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Guest7655
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Posted - 06/09/2013 :  19:54:42  Reply with Quote
The bruins got lucky to beat the leafs though
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Go_Habs_Go
Rookie



157 Posts

Posted - 06/09/2013 :  20:22:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I didnt get time to read all of the 11 pages...but for the moment : Phil Kessel has 253 pts witl the Leafs, and Seguin + Hamilton + Knight have...137 pts !!!

Ok, I know the Bruins won the cup, and blabla they all have a great future ahead, but how can it be that obvious that the Bruins won the trade

Seguin just had a lousy regular season, and he's loving the 3rd line role in the playoffs..wow. On the other hand Kessel was a top-10 pts leader in back to back seasons.

Kessel is clearly an all-star, whereas the 3 new bruins all have to prove something.

All in all just to say, I think this is a very good nhl trade, neither the Bruins nor the Leafs "clearly" won the trade



"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet
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Alex116
PickupHockey Legend



5790 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2013 :  08:35:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Go_Habs_Go

I didnt get time to read all of the 11 pages...but for the moment : Phil Kessel has 253 pts witl the Leafs, and Seguin + Hamilton + Knight have...137 pts !!!

Ok, I know the Bruins won the cup, and blabla they all have a great future ahead, but how can it be that obvious that the Bruins won the trade

Seguin just had a lousy regular season, and he's loving the 3rd line role in the playoffs..wow. On the other hand Kessel was a top-10 pts leader in back to back seasons.

Kessel is clearly an all-star, whereas the 3 new bruins all have to prove something.

All in all just to say, I think this is a very good nhl trade, neither the Bruins nor the Leafs "clearly" won the trade



"Bon point Jacques!" - Benoît Brunet



Apparently you need to read the 11 pages.....sorry.

Lemme summarize....... If you asked 30 GM's RIGHT NOW who they'd rather have between Kessel OR Seguin, Hamilton and Knight, how many do you think would say Kessel? Hint.....it's a low number!

Add that to the cup win PLUS a return to the final and i don't care if Kessel has 4,000 points, it's not amounted to enough for the Leafs. Bruins win, and this thread goes on, and on, and on......
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HawkinOilCountry
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
318 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2013 :  08:48:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OMG It's drivel... not dribble...

/rant

Now for an actual opinion: I think both teams came out pretty even on this to date. HOWEVER, I don't like any trade that takes 1 guy, and gives up 3.

Individually, none of these guys is worth Kessel right now, but when I look at what these guys could mean for Boston's current and future prospect, I have to say Boston wins pretty handily.

The only scenario I see where I would concede Toronto wins is if 2/3 or 3/3 of these players turn into long term busts.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/10/2013 :  14:45:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thats funny. I guess it is Drivel not Dribble. Never spelt it out before. At least the jist of it was related.

quote:
Originally posted by HawkinOilCountry

OMG It's drivel... not dribble...

/rant

Now for an actual opinion: I think both teams came out pretty even on this to date. HOWEVER, I don't like any trade that takes 1 guy, and gives up 3.

Individually, none of these guys is worth Kessel right now, but when I look at what these guys could mean for Boston's current and future prospect, I have to say Boston wins pretty handily.

The only scenario I see where I would concede Toronto wins is if 2/3 or 3/3 of these players turn into long term busts.



"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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Guest4939
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Posted - 06/10/2013 :  19:57:59  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinOilCountry
Now for an actual opinion: I think both teams came out pretty even on this to date. HOWEVER, I don't like any trade that takes 1 guy, and gives up 3.

Individually, none of these guys is worth Kessel right now, but when I look at what these guys could mean for Boston's current and future prospect, I have to say Boston wins pretty handily.

You for got to mention cap space to be able to land Horton. Remember cap space flexibility and Seguin, Hamilton and Knight. The biggest reason Boston made the trade wasn't the picks (which turns out to be a gift that keeps on giving). The reason for the trade at the time was to clear cap space.

I'm not suggesting Horton as part of the trade but the cap space allowed the Bruins to do something they would never had the ability to do.
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JOSHUACANADA
PickupHockey Veteran



Canada
1877 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  08:16:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Good point guest. Why not consider the players Boston was able to pick up with the flexibility the cap space provided, as I am certain Horton and others were not possible without this trade.

"I now realise that the Toronto Maple Leafs, Canada's finest hockey team, is better than the Ottawa Senators - and always will be. PS - LOVE that Dion Phaneuf! "
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CrockOShight
Top Prospect



90 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  10:50:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No no no no no no no no no.

Those who are saying that Boston won this trade are wrong.

We have to get something straight here. You cannot add Hamilton's and Knight's value here as straight up addition. It doesn't work like that. The equation is NOT:

Kessel < Seguin + Hamilton + Knight

You can NOT "add" Hamilton's and Knight's value into the equation as straight up addition. Hamilton and Knight are prospects, and their overall bearing in this discussion is approaching irrelevant.

I could give you 100 Hamilton's and Knight's until the cows come home - the fact is, they remain prospects. They don't add to Boston's value whatsoever. They take up a roster spot, and that makes them as useful (useless) as any other player drafted in the past 10 years.

Imagine us trading 10 of our prospects to the Pittsburgh Penguins for Sidney Crosby. If we apply the above faulty logic - if we add together the values of all of the players - we find that actually the team that got 10 prospects "won" the trade. Right? Because we just got 10 players - and they all add up to better than Sidney Crosby.

But actually, no. That's not how it works.

The way it works is:

The team that gets the better player, wins the deal.


Take for example the Joe Thornton trade. Trivia Corner: Which three players did the Sharks trade to the Bruins for Joe Thornton??

Anyone? Anyone?? Bueller??? Bueller????

That's right: Wayne Primeau, Marco Sturm, Brad Stuart.

At the time of the trade, those three players were great. This looked like a "fairly" even deal. But, now we're looking at it down the road... And none of those three players are even playing right now while Joe Thornton remains a rock-solid super-star. Very clearly, the Sharks won that trade.

With time, the same will be shown for Toronto. (*They had better sign Kessel long-term though for that to remain true).

The TRUE equation IS:

Kessel > 2 1st-Round, 1 2nd-Round Draft Pick

But, if you would like to debate causality here, then THIS is your equation:

Kessel > Seguin

One more thing:

Only 25% of 1st-Rounders go on to play in the NHL
After the Second-Round, the percentage drops to under 10%. Under 10% of players drafted in NHL drafts even play in the NHL.

What does that tell us? It tells us that the Draft, is (with the exception of the Top 10 picks) almost entirely a crap shoot. Brian Burke knows this better than any of us armchair suckers sitting here commenting about how good Seguin is. But the fact is, The Bruins were extremely lucky to even get Seguin out of this deal. It could have Brandon Gormley for all we know. And then nobody would be talking about anything here.

And even if you are being stubborn about it: Kessel is STILL a better player than Seguin.

The Leafs won this deal.



"I love your enthusiasm."
- Gary Bettman
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Guest2456
( )

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  11:07:30  Reply with Quote
Wrong again. the real equation is:

SEGUIN + 1 STANLEY CUP IS> KESSEL

You draft and trade players to make your team better. You make your team better to win the stanley cup.

After this cup final you can change the equation to:

SEGUIN + 2 STANLEY CUPS IS > KESSEL

Hope that helps with your mathamatics.
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro



Canada
814 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2013 :  11:18:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You're also dead wrong with your evaluation of the Thornton trade. At the time, Joe was leading the league in scoring, and NOBODY thought the B's were getting equitable value for a "franchise player". As it turned out, both teams benefited from the trade, but who got the better of it? I'd go with the one with the cup.

The Oil WILL make the playoffs in 2014.
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