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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
 Posted - 04/15/2007 : 15:26:03
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Anyone who EVER cheered for pittsburgh is no different from those blinded San Fran fans who cheer for barry bonds...WHY?
People who cheer for bonds cheer for a guy who dishonors baseball...The pens fans cheer for "franchise players" mario, and sid who dishonor hockey by acting like a pair of whining , diving babies....I'm ashamed to call those guys canadian.....that's not how we play hockey. maybe in some dirty steal town trash bag city you play hockey that way, and that's why pens fans tolerate it...But You pens fans are jokes and should go watch a good field hockey game if you want to see flamers like Mario and Sid.
I HATE CROSBY
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OILINONTARIO
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
816 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 16:20:17
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| That seems a littlle bit over the top. Let the people of Pittsburgh enjoy the fact that they have had the opportunity to watch some of the greatest talent that has come around in the past 20 years. To think that some peoples' opinions of Sid and Mario could in any way overshadow their respective skills and accomplishments smells, to me, a little like sour grapes. |
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Guest6839
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 17:04:58
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| jealousy maybe? |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/15/2007 17:12:16 |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 17:13:24
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99.9% of fans cheer for their local team, it's as simple as that.
And I can kind of sense where this thread is headed. I am warning everyone now: Any posts containing personal attacks (at guests or members) will be deleted. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/15/2007 17:15:25 |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 17:54:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest6839
jealousy maybe?
Yes...That's got to be it!
I wish that when I get punched in the face I run around whining to any authority figure I can find. Isn't that every MAN's dream..
Mario was a joke guys/girls.......A 6'4 MAN should be able to take a hit.
My point is, you pens fans would probably enjoy a good figure skating tilt more than hockey game if all you like is people with fancy feet.
(I used the term MAN, but I'm sure there are some tough ladies out there too who wouldn't behave like those two children....Of course you could take a hit Mik!)
I HATE CROSBY |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 17:59:09
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At Least the Pens fans finally have a pretty good team to cheer for. The last couple of years they have been in a rebuilding stage and havent been able to experience playoff hockey.
Always next year!! |
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Canucks Man
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1547 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 18:04:09
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I will never understand you IHC, What is wrong with cheering for the city you live in? Or for cheering for the BEST player in the league? You seem to find anyway to attack the Penguins and their players and even their fans. Maybe you should just give it a rest.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Get The Towels Out Guys PLAYOFFS!!!
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Guest4943
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 18:12:20
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They booed the canadian national anthem today when crosby, flury, stall ect... they are all canadian. Pitsburg fans are all  s |
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 18:13:22
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that was me I do alot of the clown faces
Go Stars |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 18:13:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Canucks Man
I will never understand you IHC, What is wrong with cheering for the city you live in? Or for cheering for the BEST player in the league? You seem to find anyway to attack the Penguins and their players and even their fans. Maybe you should just give it a rest.
CANUCKS RULE!!!
Get The Towels Out Guys PLAYOFFS!!!
I have hated Pittsburgh since 1991-1992 (that's right, as a 7 year old!!!)...I hated Barasso SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Much and mario just as much......I'll slam that team until they trade Sid for Ovi.......Mario sells it to Wayne, and Tom Barasso has his name removed from the cup......So you let me be with my feelings..If I can stop even one person from liking that team, I say mission accomplished..
Cheering only for your home team for the sake of them being your home team is the sign of a true sheep...First off, there's limited logic behind it (believe or not, the players aren't all from there!!!!!!!!!!!!)...Second, what kind of fan bails on his team when they are struggling? Typically the fan only who cheers for their home team..........Paris Hilton could have one of her lavish parties in the empty space at pens games 3 years ago.....
I HATE CROSBY |
Edited by - I HATE CROSBY on 04/15/2007 18:14:32 |
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SlowShot
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
264 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 18:18:49
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[/quote]
Mario sells it to Wayne
I HATE CROSBY
[/quote]
I'll defend Mario over Whayne any day. Mario would fight and did not have tough guys like mcsorly protecting him. But Pitsburg fans are s
Go Stars |
Edited by - SlowShot on 04/15/2007 18:19:32 |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 19:01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
(I used the term MAN, but I'm sure there are some tough ladies out there too who wouldn't behave like those two children....Of course you could take a hit Mik!)
I can and I have 
And then the guy who did it wound up with a stick in the face and we both wound up in the penalty box, haha |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 21:20:06
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So we all know something. IHC is only on these boards for shock value, not to advance any meaningful ideas. You criticize Mario and Sid for telling authority figures about this and that and praise Gretzky in the same statement. That's completely ridiculous. Gretzky had a no hit rule on him most of his career and neither of these Penguins ever had that kind of protection.
I grew up outside Pittsburgh and proudly wear their jersey even after a loss like today. If you don't like his whining, then the reasons to like the Penguins are quite simple also. Who wouldn't want to cheer for Jordan Staal, the guy who wasn't expected to play in the league this year, but was one of the top scoring rookies in the league. Or how about Malkin (whose jersey I'm currently wearing), who was involved in a modern day defection and had to overcome great adversity to even come to North America this year and still led all rookies in scoring. The list goes on and on Fleury, Recchi, Roberts, Whitney, Armstrong, Gonchar . . . all guys I love to cheer for because of the way they play hockey, not just because they play on my team. Have you ever even been to Pittsburgh or a Penguins game? If you haven't how can you say you hate me or anyone else who packs Mellon Arena night after night? Who do you cheer for? Or do you just cheer for whoever is playing the Penguins, in which case you actually just cheer against hockey teams and hockey as a sport? If your hate for the team goes back so far, who else on the '91-'92 team did you dislike and why? Do you hate Jagr too? Maybe you hate Joe Mullen? How sour are your grapes that you spend so much of your time just being hateful? Do you lack anything better to do with your time? Maybe a job, seeing as you're old enough? Maybe you should get another one to pay to go see the Penguins sometime. You may learn something about the some of the best fans on this side of the border.
I don't view anything in this post as any more of a personal attack than the initial post is. I believe I've deleted all expletives that would more accurately express my feelings on the issue. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 21:34:02
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Well, I'm a grad student in math(yawn), so I tend to find more enjoyment out of talking hockey than marking tests...Seeing as most of my friends are math nerds, this forum is my only hockey outlet, so let me be...But enough about me......Well, I hate to admit it, but you're kinda right...I do judge that team based on a few players.....But seeing as I only hear about sid and mario, what'd you expect.....I don't remember Melon arena (that joke arena that can't even sustain power hahahahaha) packed when Sid wasn't on the team (the period when your town "hero" mario would play a game a month than call it quits).......And I notice that most fans at that rink wearing jerseys have that #87 on them.....So you guys are just as bad of band wagon jumpers as I've ever seen.........I've liked the sens since ron Tugnutt played on the team (great guy), and I like most teams in the league, the pens have always been a disgrace to the league, right down to that pathetic owner who didn't seem that keen on keeping the pens in that joke city.......That's right, he'd take the all mighty dollar over pittsburgh..Then again, who wouldn't over a city of band wagon hoppers?
I won't be keeping quiet about sid and the pens until I can turn on my tv and here about something different than crosby......You guys really don't see where I'm coming from do you?
Look, I devoted my entire youth to hockey(til I turned 17 and got knocked out once and for all)......I watched those rockem sockem videos daily, practiced daily and know the ropes pretty good......So excuse me if I don't like some p**** being the face of the NHL...Consider me a crusader for the good old hockey game, when it was about a TEAM and not a player...Cause all I seem to hear about on my tv (hockey wise) is about individuals......If you want that, go watch the NBA........And on my crusade towards old school, sid will be my scapegoat! (well, by old school, I mean like mid 90's when wayne and mario were only luke warm, and the Nucks could make it to the finals with a team where you knew EVERY players name...I'm aware Bure was the "star", but still, that whole team worked to get them there, and they all got kudos)
I HATE CROSBY |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 04/15/2007 22:57:14 |
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Guest4024
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Posted - 04/15/2007 : 22:59:12
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| why you gotta be dissing mario for? he wasnt a whining baby. as for you, why are you going around calling sid a whining baby when YOU ARE DOING THE EXACT SAME THING. get a grip. |
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ED11
Rookie
Canada
224 Posts |
Posted - 04/15/2007 : 23:11:10
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To IHC...
Look man, I see where you are coming from. You like the "old hockey" game and you're all about the "tough" guys being the face of the NHL and Crosby being a "p****", as you put it, blah blah blah. But dude, times have changed. It's hard to accept, isn't it? Hockey is trying to compete with all the other major sports in North America and a guy like Crosby COULD help them. Sure he doesn't hit much or fight and in your eyes that makes him a p****? I really am starting to question your knowledge on hockey. Franchise players have existed for a long time and yes I do agree with you that hockey maybe was more about "team play" back in the day, but team play also exists now.
You said that you don't like "whiners". Dude. I have a suggestion for you. Stop your whining about Crosby. Seriously. Be proud that a Canadian born player has once again come along that is the face of the NHL. Be proud that, baring an injury, he will lead team Canada in 2010. What? You won't be cheering for him then when he's leading them? All I'm saying is take your own adivce on the whining. |
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hithere311
Rookie
Canada
109 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 05:19:39
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| Then lets hope your local team beats Pittsburgh IHC. |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2007 : 05:41:04
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quote:
Originally posted by ED11
To IHC...
Look man, I see where you are coming from. You like the "old hockey" game and you're all about the "tough" guys being the face of the NHL and Crosby being a "p****", as you put it, blah blah blah. But dude, times have changed. It's hard to accept, isn't it? Hockey is trying to compete with all the other major sports in North America and a guy like Crosby COULD help them. Sure he doesn't hit much or fight and in your eyes that makes him a p****? I really am starting to question your knowledge on hockey. Franchise players have existed for a long time and yes I do agree with you that hockey maybe was more about "team play" back in the day, but team play also exists now.
You said that you don't like "whiners". Dude. I have a suggestion for you. Stop your whining about Crosby. Seriously. Be proud that a Canadian born player has once again come along that is the face of the NHL. Be proud that, baring an injury, he will lead team Canada in 2010. What? You won't be cheering for him then when he's leading them? All I'm saying is take your own adivce on the whining.
Agreed. And it seems like you prefer Ovechkin over Crosby? I got news for you...Ovechkin's game doesn't have anything resembling "old time hockey." |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 22:09:25
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quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771
So we all know something. IHC is only on these boards for shock value, not to advance any meaningful ideas.
And BINGO was his name-o.
As my dad used to say, he talks a lot and says very little.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 22:39:53
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I have nothing personally against Pens fans. I do understand the fact that they have to defend their star as he is a great player with a lot on his shoulders. So the Pens fans do need to defend themselves a little more that other team's fans.
That being said, I have noticed on this site specifically that the Pens fans seem to not see the forrest for the trees. Many on here talk about Crosby and his talents, but leave out the other great players on that team that make them who they are. All you hear about is Crosby, but not so much about Malkin, Staal(who is the best player on that team in my opinion), Fleury, Gonchar, Roberts, Whitney, Malone, etc.
So, although I think IHC has been a little more over the top in this thread than in other, I can see his point. Pens fans have been frustrating me lately as well. |
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Guest7098
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Posted - 05/03/2007 : 22:51:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I have nothing personally against Pens fans. I do understand the fact that they have to defend their star as he is a great player with a lot on his shoulders. So the Pens fans do need to defend themselves a little more that other team's fans.
That being said, I have noticed on this site specifically that the Pens fans seem to not see the forrest for the trees. Many on here talk about Crosby and his talents, but leave out the other great players on that team that make them who they are. All you hear about is Crosby, but not so much about Malkin, Staal(who is the best player on that team in my opinion), Fleury, Gonchar, Roberts, Whitney, Malone, etc.
So, although I think IHC has been a little more over the top in this thread than in other, I can see his point. Pens fans have been frustrating me lately as well.
clearly no one knows what they are talking about because staal will be the next joey thornton. he will dominate in his time, and he is THE BEST prospect/sophomore in the league, dont argue, please, youre nuts to do so. |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 07:42:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
All you hear about is Crosby, but not so much about Malkin, Staal(who is the best player on that team in my opinion), Fleury, Gonchar, Roberts, Whitney, Malone, etc.
Staal is the best player on the team?
Drugs are bad for you.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 09:40:37
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Fly, feel free to rebute my comment if you wish, you obviously disagree. I can't wait to hear your reasons as to why Staal is not the best player on that team.
And be careful, I did not say best scorer, best offensive player, or biggest draw. I said "player." That means two sides of the puck.
I'm waiting....... |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 10:38:18
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| Beans, I think you are mistaking Pens fans for hockey fans in general. Penguins beatr reporters give plenty of coverage to the other talents on the ice. Serious Penguins fans discuss the talents of Staal and Malkin and the importance of Roberts and Recchi to the team. In Pittsburgh, Malone is a household name because he's from Pittsburgh. Fleury is praised (I believe very wrongly) as the next Martin Brodeur. Fans get excited when shootouts start because Christiensen is one of the most reliable shooters in the game today. In Pittsburgh, Hockey fans discuss the impacts of many players. Sure, Sid gets lots of press. Where wouldn't he get lots of press if he won the Art Ross Trophy? You are crazy if you think that in TO or Ottawa Crosby wouldn't be all the rage if he was putting up numbers there. Moreover, it's easier for national reporters to focus on the guy everyone knows about. It's an easier article to write and an easier paper to sell. The outside world focuses on one player, but pick up a Post-Gazette or a Tribune-Review next season and you'll find articles pertaining to lots of players, not just Sid. I'm sorry, but your staements about Pens fans only discussing one player are extremely ill informed. Have you ever even been to Pittsburgh? |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 11:33:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Fly, feel free to rebute my comment if you wish, you obviously disagree. I can't wait to hear your reasons as to why Staal is not the best player on that team.
And be careful, I did not say best scorer, best offensive player, or biggest draw. I said "player." That means two sides of the puck.
I'm waiting.......
Points are one BIG reason. To say points are unimportant would be like saying we should discuss the best NASCAR driver that doesn't use a car. Crosby had 120 points this year, Staal had 42. Crosby scored 7 more goals and almost 70 more assists. That ain't even close.
Plus-minus was comparable. Sid was +10 playing over 20 minutes a game, Staal was +16 playing less than 15. Considering Sid plays against the other team's top line night in and night out, that's pretty good.
But the #1 reason....foot speed. Crosby can do all of the things that Staal does, and he is rocket fast. I like Staal a lot...big fan... but the kid is slow and lumbering, and if he doesn't find another gear, other teams are going to find a way to shut him down next year.
Staal scored more goals this year in the NHL than he ever did playing junior. He is big, has some moves, and is a smart defensive player for his age. Like I said, I love the kid, but his numbers will be similar next year or at best only slightly better - mark my words. Look at how he is performing (or not performing) at the World Championship right now. 0 points. At times, he looks very out of place on the big ice surface, appearing almost glacial in his movements. It's because his foot speed is less than average.
Crosby is underrated defensively. It is popular to slam highly skilled offensive players as lax on defence, but this is simply not true in his case. He almost never loses one-on-one battles down low in his own end, and can single handedly get the puck out by making a clean stretch pass or by beating two or three guys with his speed. He can also use that speed to be the first player back on the backcheck. These are things you do not find on stat sheets.
Crosby is a superstar. Period. If you don't believe me, ask the NHL players themselves (they picked him as the best player in a recent player's poll done by The Hockey News).
Staal, on the other hand is a very good young prospect. But seriously, he was not even the best rookie this year, let alone the best player in the NHL (which is what you are calling him if you say he is a better player than Crosby).
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 11:47:43
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OK, now I have to answer to two posts!
PensFans. I agree with 100% of the things that you say. If you re-read my post it clearly states "this site specifically." It may be the young age of some of the people on here. But many can attest to the various people on this site that talk out their ass and can't support anything they say. And the fact that I have never been to Pittsburgh is irrelevant. I am simply saying that many Pens fans on this site talk about how great Crosby is, but can not defend any kind of criticism of his game. I agree that he is an amazing talent, and one day soon will be the best player in the league. Today, I would easily put Lecavalier, Iginla, and Thorton ahead of him. Jagr is still there, so is Joe Sakic and Heatley. So to say without question that Crosby is the best is really premature and narrow minded. That is what I am saying.
And as one final point to your about Art Ross Trophy winners. There is not even a close comparison to the media attention that Crosby got this year compared to Thorton last year or St. Louis the couple years before that. He is the face of the new league and I just have to deal with that. But I don't have to like it. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:03:18
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Now to Fly4apuckGuy. Honestly, that was better than I expected.
I totally agree with just about everything you said. I don't think that Crosby is poor defensively at all, but he is not as good defensively as Staal is. Same as Staal is not as offensively gifted as Crosby. But that does not mean that Staal is poor offensively.
Foot Speed?? Well I can't really disagree, but I recall an amazing player who wore 99 that didn't have great foot speed either. And like Gretzky, Staal has found a way to be effective without being a great skater. And no I am not comparing Staal to Gretzky. I am simply saying that very good hockey players have the ability to work around some physical short comings.
I think the +/- thing in this case is relevant. I am not a huge fan of the +/- stat, however, looking at Staal at +16 and Crosby at +10. You are right that Crosby is playing against the other teams shut down line each night.That makes them generally not the best offensive line, so his +/- should/could be better. I can't really fault him for that as it seems the best offensive players generally have softer +/- stats compared to the points they put up. But is Staal not playing against the other teams top offensive line each night?? To me, that means tons to Staal's defensive abilities. Less points and playing against the other teams best offensive line and still having a higher +/-.?? That's pretty impressive. And also credit Staal's play on the PK, which Crosby does not do very often.
I will admit, it is pretty ignorant of me to say that Staal is the best player on a team with Sidney Crosby. So I will concede the point. I think it has to do with the media's love affair with Crosby and how frustrating that is to some of us. However, I can not concede the point that Staal was not the best rookie on the team. And see my rebuttal to PenFans about the best player in the league. It is not Crosby, and that is another point I will not concede. Comparing him to Lecavalier, Iginla, Heatley, Sakic. I can't in good conscious put him ahead of any of those players yet. One day yes, but not today.
Cheers |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
I agree that he is an amazing talent, and one day soon will be the best player in the league. Today, I would easily put Lecavalier, Iginla, and Thorton ahead of him. Jagr is still there, so is Joe Sakic and Heatley. So to say without question that Crosby is the best is really premature and narrow minded. That is what I am saying.
Guess who is premature and narrow-minded!
http://www.thehockeynews.com/en/news/news.asp?idNews=24100
Guess what? I agree that Staal is better than Malkin.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
Edited by - fly4apuckguy on 05/08/2007 12:05:52 |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 12:24:24
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Still doesn't change my opinion.
And the question was Who was the best player THIS YEAR? Not, who is the best player in the NHL. Crosby has proved 2 stellar seasons. The others have proven more than that.
And it's nice to see we can agree from time to time as well! |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 13:44:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
OK, now I have to answer to two posts!
PensFans. I agree with 100% of the things that you say. If you re-read my post it clearly states "this site specifically." It may be the young age of some of the people on here. But many can attest to the various people on this site that talk out their ass and can't support anything they say. And the fact that I have never been to Pittsburgh is irrelevant. I am simply saying that many Pens fans on this site talk about how great Crosby is, but can not defend any kind of criticism of his game. I agree that he is an amazing talent, and one day soon will be the best player in the league. Today, I would easily put Lecavalier, Iginla, and Thorton ahead of him. Jagr is still there, so is Joe Sakic and Heatley. So to say without question that Crosby is the best is really premature and narrow minded. That is what I am saying.
And as one final point to your about Art Ross Trophy winners. There is not even a close comparison to the media attention that Crosby got this year compared to Thorton last year or St. Louis the couple years before that. He is the face of the new league and I just have to deal with that. But I don't have to like it.
We can start with the obvious reasons that Thorton didn't get the same hype last year:
He's not 19 years old.
He plays in a market that is not nearly as interested in hockey.
He plays in an area of the country where hockey is not as well covered.
That's why I pointed to TO and Ott.
In addition, the criticisms of Crosby's play are misguided fundamentally.
In general, the dislike for Crosby is based solely on his hype, not his play itself. Hype is the result of his age and his ability to do as well as he has at his age. We haven't seen such a rise since Lemieux. Has anyone even considered that maybe, just maybe, he's worthy of the hype considering what people at his age who did what he's done later did? Maybe what you don't like is that you think it's impossible, perhaps blasphemy, to believe that anyone playing today is capable of being as good as the legends of the game. I don't get what you actually think is so bad about him being the face of the game.
The other major criticism put forward of Crosby is his "whininess". This isn't even a real criticism of him as a player because it has no relationship to his abilities. Such a link only speaks to ignorant minds effectively. Again, he's 19 years old and lives in the world where the spotlight is always on him. He's worked hard to get where he is and is as intense as anyone to play the game. He may be immature, but I'm an RA for 30 19 year olds at college and I think there are only a half-dozen I would consider mature. And the only pressures on them are to get good grades and find some girl to bring home on the weekends, not lead a team in scoring night in and night out. He will grow out of this, so I would defer judgment on the topic.
Finally there is all this nonsense about better players out there.
Heatley may be a better scorer, but he is a far inferior passer. Thorton may be as good a passer, but can't score as well. I'd love to see how Lecavalier stacks up when he isn't skating with St. Louis on his line. And no - Crosby does not usually skate on the same line as Malkin or Staal. I would have also put Jagr above Crosby before this season, but my best hockey friend is a Rangers fan and I saw his age truly show for the first time this year, and I'm not referring to experience, leadership, or anything like that. His body is not what it used to be. Sakic is the greatest leader in the league, but certainly can no longer play with the same level of intensity as Crosby night in and night out. It's a fact of life, guys get older and move from being the best to other roles on their teams. And even with his leadership and Stastny's youth, Sakic was unable to lead the Avs to the playoffs. Similarly, NYR beat writers have been writing articles about a player carrying their team to the playoffs, but it wasn't Jagr, it was Sean Avery. I don't think there is a GM in the league today that wouldn't trade any of these players for Sidney Crosby because they know that his work ethic and raw talent is truly something special. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 14:20:45
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nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 14:29:59
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PENSFAN, that was the single most intelligent post I have ever read on here (besides my own, of course).
Just a note...when Joe Thornton was 19, he scored 41 points for the Boston Bruins.
Joe Sakic had 62 points (and was a -36) in the late 1980's NHL as a 19 year old.
I could go on....
To the statement that this is a "new NHL", I agree that scoring is up, but not dramatically. It is only up slightly. A statistical anomoly, really. It is certainly not back to 1990 levels, nor will it likely ever be. The goalies are better, coaches and systems are better, and to score 120 points, a player has to be better.
I love Gretzky, as you all know. I watched him throughout his early Oiler days on ITV (Albertans remember the games on ITV). He was my hero.
Crosby is better at 19 than Gretzky was.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 14:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
Mark my words.
In 20 years, Crosby will get standing ovations in every arena he visits in Canada and everywhere else in the world.
Luongo will be a footnote. The Mike Liut of 2027.
BTW. Luongo WAS traded. For Todd Bertuzzi. Insert laugh track here.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 15:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by PENSFAN8771
. Have you ever even been to Pittsburgh?
Total non-hockey note here, but PENSFAN8771. I have been to Pittsburgh and gotta say, I was more impressed with your city than I ever thought I would be. I never realized it was such a nice place. |
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Guest1415
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Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:22:13
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| did even need to no who made this all i needed to do was guess IHC |
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:39:55
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day!
Mark my words.
In 20 years, Crosby will get standing ovations in every arena he visits in Canada and everywhere else in the world.
Luongo will be a footnote. The Mike Liut of 2027.
BTW. Luongo WAS traded. For Todd Bertuzzi. Insert laugh track here.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz
Agreed that Crosby will be getting standing O's everywhere (assuming his career is long) But I have to disagree that Luongo will be a footnote. We've seen how good he was on a terrible team (Florida) We're just beginning to see what he is capable of on a mediocre team (Vancouver). And right now he is just inching into his prime years. I believe we'll be seeing numbers up there with (and maybe exceeding) Roy and Brodeur. Luongo is the real deal (but then again I've been saying that for at least 4 years) |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
BTW. Luongo WAS traded. For Todd Bertuzzi. Insert laugh track here.
Ya, Florida got hosed on that one.
quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
nonsense about better players out there, Pennsfan.? I think a man by the name of Luongo would disagree......That guy actually carried his team. I think anyone who gets both goaltending and "non-goaltenders" would also admit that he is substantially more talented at his position than Sid could ever be at his. So if people out there want to marvel at the best talent in the NHL, they better watch the guy at the other side of the continent. If I were a Gm who's owner told me he didn't care about putting butts in the seats, he just wanted the team to win the cup, I would instantly trade Crosby for Luongo (Of course, only a dumb GM would accept that trade, they know there are about 20 Crosby's out there, but only one Luongo ).
Well, there's some truth to what you say here IHC. As I've argued on several other threads, Luongo has been more valuable to his team this year than Crosby. I don't think that makes him better. Better implies that the two are comparable and I would say that comparing a goalie to any other position is like comparing apples to oranges. My argument was targeted at the contension that several skaters are better today than Crosby, which I feel is utterly untrue. There probably are a few GMs out there that are more dire for a goaltender than a goal scorer. There are other good goaltenders in the league though. I think Martin Brodeur (except his dismal playoff performance) was just as good as Luongo this year. In fact, the two were nearly statistically identical. Crosby had no one this season who stacked up to him in this manner. That said, I think adding some primary scoring ability to Vancouver may have helped them a lot. You need talent on both ends for a winning team. Pittsburgh has promising goaltenders in the system in Dave Brown and Fleury, so it would be foolish for the Pens to make that trade. Luongo has developed into the player he has become in order to play on the highest level at his position. Crosby is not fully developed and playing at the highest level. I think most GMs would consider that "x factor" with Crosby to be what would make him so desirable to trade for any one player. There aren't 20 Crosbys out there. There are maybe 20 guys who can do one part of Crosby's game as well, but no player in the league today that sees the ice as well, controls the puck as well, passes as well, and has footwrok that is as good as Crosby's. He is a whole package that plays the whole ice.
We've seen lots fo good goaltenders come through the league, just as we've seen lots of good skaters. Luongo is not the best goalie I've ever seen in his prime. While I hate admitting it, Roy and Brodeur were both better in their primes. Many may throw Hasek in there too. And that's just the last 10-15 years. Even in these playoffs, When Vancouver was playing the Stars, Luongo didn't even look like the best goalie on the ice on most nights, Turco did. Remember, their 3 wins were all shutouts. I think the difference between a good skater and a great skater is significantly more tangible than between a good goalie and a great goalie. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:46:17
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Luongo was also traded for an up-and-coming D-man and an-up and coming goalie (anyone who says Auld is a bad goalie should just stick to watching basketball, cause you don't get hockey)......Mike Liut was a substantially worse goalie than Luongo, minus a couple really good seasons. I can't wait til Crosby doesn't live up to this hype....Last year, I bet everyone on this thing was talking about Ovi-one, now you guys slam the poor guy........And it will only be a matter of time before you do the same thing to Sid......This is a different time than the 80's folks. Every player in the league can contribute. As a result, there will be no "next one" ever, cause the rest of the teams are full of smart guys who will know how to tame a player like sid. I mean with all the video and what-not now, I'm sure the average coach will have all of Sid's weaknesses figyured out, and Sid won't be a footnote, no he'll be remembered as the most over-hyped player of all-time...then the joke fans in Pittsburgh will stop showing up, because they are nothing but band-wagon hoppers......
I hope you Penns fans out there realize that the Senators are just as young as the Penguins are, and if one team is going to emerge from this generation a dynasty it will be be them!
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 16:56:51
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quote:
Originally posted by I HATE CROSBY
I hope you Penns fans out there realize that the Senators are just as young as the Penguins are, and if one team is going to emerge from this generation a dynasty it will be be them!
I realize that the Senators had an identical mean age, but that doesnt mean they were just as young. Only 8 guys on the Pens had playoof experience, compared to 15 on the Senators. Also, do the standard deviation calculations (or just look at a roster with DOBs) and you'll see that the Senators have most players closer to the mean while the Penguins have players at both extremes, way younger and way older. You're a math major, you should know better than to make that generalization. |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 17:47:08
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Just a couple of points.
PensFan, it really doesn't matter what your opinion is of Crosby compared to other players. And please, can everyone stop using his age as a crutch. Yes, I agree it is pretty amazing that he is 19. But that doesn't mean he is better TODAY than certain players.
And your assessment of Joe Sakic is dead wrong in my opinion. The fact that he is still near the top of the league at 38 is amazing. More PP goals, more PK goals, more SH goals,less PIM, than Crosby. So 20 assists must make Crosby a better player than Sakic?? Sakic is a superstar not only because what he did this year, but what he always did.
What happens if Crosby hits the absolute skids for the next two or three years. Not saying it's likely, but what if he did?? Would he still be so amazing?? C'mon. The Kid has 2 years under his belt. That is not enough to tell me that he is the best. 4 years or more I can see. But what has he proven?? He can score points?? When he gets some decent players with him he can take a team to the playoffs?? That is not that special.
Think about Joe Juneau. He had 70 assists and 102 points as a rooke. His 2nd year he had 72 points in 63 games. What happened then?? Nothing. 379 points in another 667 games.
My point, two good seasons does not a superstar make. I have said many times: Crosby will be the best player in the league. One day, but it's not today. |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2007 : 21:11:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Just a couple of points.
PensFan, it really doesn't matter what your opinion is of Crosby compared to other players. And please, can everyone stop using his age as a crutch. Yes, I agree it is pretty amazing that he is 19. But that doesn't mean he is better TODAY than certain players.
1. It does matter how he compares to other players. It goes to the point of legitimacy of the hype.
2. His age isn't a crutch. It just leaves one to wonder how good he will be. It does affect maturity. That's a fact of developmental psychology.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
And your assessment of Joe Sakic is dead wrong in my opinion. The fact that he is still near the top of the league at 38 is amazing. More PP goals, more PK goals, more SH goals,less PIM, than Crosby. So 20 assists must make Crosby a better player than Sakic?? Sakic is a superstar not only because what he did this year, but what he always did.
3. Your application of best player leaves an unfair burden in this debate. You say that Sakic is great because of what he has done throughout his career, even though that has no bearing on how good he is today. As you say, we're talking about today.
4. If we are talking about today, only the present matters, not a long track record. Crosby played better than any other skater this year, that is the means I use to determine who is the best. Not who has been the best over the course of a period when he was not in the league, which does not apply to the present that you seem so intent on.
5. We can look back in history and discuss who was the best person in a given year without regard for their age or experience because we know that they later proved themselves. If you say Crosby will someday be the best, then he has to have shown you something to believe that and if you do believe that, then he has proven something. In 5 years, will it be able to look back and say Crosby was the best player in the past season. I think this can be done today with the performance fresh in or minds.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
What happens if Crosby hits the absolute skids for the next two or three years. Not saying it's likely, but what if he did?? Would he still be so amazing?? C'mon. The Kid has 2 years under his belt. That is not enough to tell me that he is the best. 4 years or more I can see. But what has he proven?? He can score points?? When he gets some decent players with him he can take a team to the playoffs?? That is not that special.
6. My judgment isn't just made of stats. It's also the way the puck is carried up and down the ice and the totality of Crosby's game outside of the highlights. He's a player that's fun to watch away from the puck and when he has it. Penguins fans are, in a way, lucky that Malkin, Staal, and Crosby were put on different lines because we can watch each one for their whole shift.
7. These are things that Joe Sakic was unable to do this past year and you say we are talking about the present. So I guess then he's really unimpressive.
quote:
Originally posted by Beans15
Think about Joe Juneau. He had 70 assists and 102 points as a rooke. His 2nd year he had 72 points in 63 games. What happened then?? Nothing. 379 points in another 667 games.
8. We all know that Joe Juneau was a different player in a different time with less raw talent than Crosby. And he dropped of his second year while Crosby improved.
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I hate Pittsburgh AND their fans 
