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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2007 : 07:41:21
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1) It's true that how he compares to other player is important. However the comparisons I speak of are your comparisons, which I don't agree with. Your comparisons make it seem like Crosby is head and shoulders above the rest, which I just don't see. He belongs in the group of elite, top 5 players. But it's not like Gretzky in the 80's or Lemieux in the 90's. He definitely has competition on the top.
2) Many people do say, "He's only 19." Well, I really don't care how old he is. He started playing pro hockey at 18. He was in the spotlight well before that. Maturity is based on experience not age.
3) Are you saying the Sakic's 100 points season at 38 isn't good?? And Colorado was a better team than people gave them credit for. They had a bad start to the year, but very nearly ran the table at the end of the year to get into the play-offs. The fact that they didn't make it had nothing to do with Sakic's leadership or production.
4. It is your opinion that Crosby played better than any other skater this year. I would put Lecavalier and Heatley ahead of him. With Iginla and Sakic right there as well. Reason being, Healtey and Lecavalier were more valuable to their team in both offensive and defensive situations. Lecavalier is the go to guy in TB in every situations. Not just offensive situations. Less than 20 points between them as well??
5. See the point above as to who I think was the best this year. As far as best player in the league. You and I have very different opinions. My opinion is a guy that has brought it consistently over a period of time. Yours is who it the best right now. Using your logic, was Cheechoo was one of the best players last year?? What does that make him this year??
6. My judgements are not based on stats alone. I use stats to back up what my opinion is. If you were to take Lecavalier and put them on the Penguins in place of Crosby, are not just as good of a team?? If Crosby was the best player in the league, it would be very easy to disagree with that statement. I am not so sure you can.
7. You can see #3 point on this. Also, I strongly believe that Pittsburgh would have been a play off team even without Crosby. More than likely fighting for 8th and not fighting for 2nd, but still a play off team. Crosby is not the only reason the Pens made it to the playoffs, but he was the leader of the group.
8. I am not comparing Joe Juneau to Crosby. All I am saying is that there are players out there than started off like gangbusters and fizzled. Not saying Crosby will do that, but it is still possible. So answer me this, if he comes out next year and has a 50-70 point season and the Pens make the playoffs but get bumped in the 1st round again, is he still the best player in the league?? I know that won't happen, but answer the question as if it did.
This is fun!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 07:51:03
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I'm not slamming Sakic, Thornton, Luongo, Ovechkin or any of those guys. They are all great hockey players in their own right.
But here's a fact...every twenty years or so a gifted player comes along that takes the game where it hasn't been before. You know this is true. There are superstars, and then there are the guys who are beyond that. Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux...those type of guys.
I've watched all the other "Next Ones" come down the pike. Lindros, Daigle, Kariya, Thornton, Lecavalier - at one time I was led to believe each one of these guys was going to be "it".
Hall of Famers? A couple of them, yep. But none are even close to immortal status.
The way Crosby plays (more so than the numbers he has put up or his age) and his love and dedication to the game lead me to believe that he is the true Next One. You can have talent and all the hype, but if you are not dedicated, it means squat. (Chris Gratton at one time was dubbed the "Next Mark Messier, for example).
I'm not saying anyone here is a just casual fan, or did not play the game. I do not know your backgrounds. But perhaps you need to have a little more insight into the game to really see what this kid does that makes him great.
I'm not disrespecting anyone, but if you don't get that, you don't. It is a fact that some people understand the game on a different level than others. I won't apologize for that, nor should you. It's just a fact. I'm sorry if that offends you, but some people run faster than others, too. It's not shameful, it's just true.
The guys who are closest to the game - the NHL players - agree with me on this one, boys. And if you are telling me I'm wrong, then I guess I'm in good company.
I go back to my earlier statement about just how good Sidney is - I watched Gretzky at the beginning of his career night in and night out, and Sidney is a better player at this stage than Gretzky was. That doesn't mean he'll ever outscore him, but he is more tenacious, a stronger skater and equally as instinctive. Sid does lack a scoring touch, but we'll see how that develops over time.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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BigShow
Rookie
177 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 09:10:52
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Wow, some high quantity verbiage PENSFAN8771.
Winning the Art Ross is impressive, it doesn't mean Sid is the best in the league though. In years to come he will likely be remembered as such, because those that win scoring titles stick in the mind.
He didn't drag his team to the playoffs. the Pens are a decent team, with some nice depth. The team deserved their spot in the playoffs. Luongo, Brodeur, Lecavalier and St. Louis, those guys dragged their teams into the playoffs, their teams didn't belong in the playoffs.
Falling back on the differences between goaltenders, defencemen and skaters is weak. There is no doubt that Luongo and Brodeur did more for their teams than Sid, on the ice. Which to me sounds like they are better players.
A few other names have been thrown out as being better than Crosby currently - Heatley, Lecavalier, Iginla and Thornton. If this had been the last year the league was around, i would have preferred to have had any of them as my franchise player over Sid. Same for Luongo, and if i knew Brodeur would have a career year, then i would have picked him over Sid too. Heck, while we're at it, i would have rather had either of Pronger or Lidstrom as well.
Heatley - Currently he is the best goal scorer in the league. He plays his heart out every single night. He is mentally the toughest player in the league, bar none. The stuff he has gone through i wouldn't wish on anyone. And yet there he is, a juggernaut rolling through the season.
Iginla - This guy has the perfect team attitude. Whether it means scoring the big goal or dropping the gloves or challenging the team in the dressing room, he does it all. 39G and 55A in 70GP prorates to 46G and 64A if he had played the full year. Do you ever hear about him whining in the press? He gets lots of opportunities as the big gun in Calgary, but he is MAN enough to keep his trap shut and let his actions speak for him.
Lecavalier - Playing with another bright star in St.Louis makes him harder to quantify. His play away from the puck is what sets him apart. He plays hard and fast, great positioning, willing to take the hit to make the play. His PK work this year was great, too bad they don't have a goalie to showcase how good their PK was. Again MAN enough to not do his bitching in the media, despite having plenty of opportunity.
Thornton - Generally i would rather have the finisher over the playmaker, but Joe has become that good. Joe is dependable, you know exactly what you are getting. Production-wise, very similar to Crosby, but again, he doesn't feel the need to spout off to the media.
So why am i so concerned about how a player interacts with the media, if he was gonna be my franchise guy? It's simple, it is a distraction, guys like that tend to be showboats, and not team players. No matter how you cut it, hockey is a team game, no superstar can carry you through the season, or to the Cup. You MUST have depth, you must have chemistry. I've always said the key to the Red Wings cup runs was their depth. Sure they each had several future HoFs but you can't overstate how important Draper, Maltby, McCarty and Gilchrist were to the team.
Now if we're not really talking about just this year, and we're including the value these players will have in the future as well as their value right now, Sid takes a step towards the front of the line. Because of his age, i'd take him over any of the above players, except Luongo, and perhaps Lecavalier. Luongo won't need another star to take the team to the dance, just depth and secondary scoring. Lecavalier is just hitting prime, and wow has he ever hit it. But Crosby is a lot cheaper right now, and could potentially remain that way for several years to come. So in the long haul, I'd grudgingly take Sid over Vinny.
Don't get me wrong, Sid is great, i have every confidence he will be amazing, and he will win many scoring titles, and a couple MVPs. His name will be on the Cup, he will be mentioned with greats like Bossy, Savard, and Lafleur. None of that makes him the best player in the league, today.
Picking on the fans of Steeltown is a little low. I've seen games in several cities, and it is pretty much the case that fans are tied to wins. If the team is winning, or at least showing that they can win, fans will be with them. If their is a doubt as to a team's chances, the fans are off the wagon in no time, with a few exceptions - Toronto, Montreal, Detroit and the Rangers. People want to be involved in winning. Sad as it may be to purists of the game, the vast majority of people that show up to games don't really follow their team. They are just there for the feel good party. |
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andyhack
PickupHockey Pro
Japan
891 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 09:27:45
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Beans - Although I ultimately disagree with you on this (and think Crosby was indeed the best player this past year*), I do sympathize with you a bit here. I think it is somewhat amusing that your point (being I think that Crosby MAY, just MAY, not have been the best player of this past year) is so so so hard for some to accept. Sort of like some so-called "insane" comments on some other threads are so so so hard for some to accept. 
Point taken Beans, there were some excellent performances by players this past year to be considered right up there with Crosby's performance. It's not such an easy choice.
* Crosby being the best player is subject to my comments about Luongo being more valuable to his team in the Hart thread |
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manninm
PickupHockey Pro
USA
347 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 10:46:12
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I guess for me it comes down to distinguishing between two things, productivity and overall value. Certainly, Sid was the most productive offensive player out there this year. And let's face it, the kids got gobs of talent and will hopefully have the learning capabilities to become a great overall player.
However, I think that I most agree with Beans and Bigshow on this one. In terms of overall value, there are many players in the league, and maybe on that team, that are more important than Sid. When it came down to crunch time, he couldn't lead his team to victory. And I'm not blaming him for that...he's 19 and has a lot of maturing to do. But you can't just blindly say that he's the best, the greatest, and the most important to his team without taking a look at the big picture. What would Sakic, or Yzerman, or Kariya, or Drury, etc etc done in the same situation? If not guided them to victory, made significantly longer strides toward doing so.
My hope is that Sid uses this, among other things, as situational learning experiences to strengthen his overall game. And fly4apuckguy, I agree with you, I also think he's "the next one." But being the next one doesn't automatically make you the most valuable player to a team at age 19.
Because the demands on a goalie are mostly mental, it means that for a goalie, the biggest enemy is himself." ~Ken Dryden |
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 12:01:21
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I agree with Manninm and Fly at the same time.
I do agree that Crosby COULD and more than likely will be the next one.
Why I say COULD is that none of the all time Greats achieved their status as all time greats after two years!! It took 5+ of being amazing.
Crosby has all the tools to do it. But it takes more than two seasons.
And Bigshow you are dead on in my opinion. There are a number of players in the league that can skate with Crosby right now. In a couple of years with some maturity and experience under his belt, I will more than likely not be able to say that. But today, Heatley, Thorton, Lecavalier, and Iginla are right there with Sakic, Jagr, a healthy Gaborik right there as well. Not like it's that shabby to be in the top 5 players in the league at anytime in a career. And yes, I admit that him being as developed as a player as he is at 19 is pretty impressive. But the fact that he is 19 does not make him the best in the league, which some weaker arguements will suggest.
Fly and Pensfans. Do you seriously think that the Penguins would have not been equally as good of a team with Igninla, Lecavalier, or Thorton as their #1 centre??
Crosby is not head and shoulders above the rest. In the top 5, but not clearly #1 in my opinion. |
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I HATE CROSBY
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
538 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 16:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by fly4apuckguy
The way Crosby plays (more so than the numbers he has put up or his age) and his love and dedication to the game lead me to believe that he is the true Next One.
You're a joke, plain and simple......I am certain that every player in the game has love and dedication......How else could they get there?
Also, I am sure that I could absolutely destroy you in playing hockey.....Stop putting yourself on a pedestal!
Sugar Ray over Hasek any day! |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 18:36:32
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Big Show:
I wasn't saying that Crosby is better than Luongo or Brodeur, I was saying they are not comparable. Luongo and Brodeur couldn't do what Crosby does just like Crosby can't do what they do. I wholeheartedly agree that both these goalies were more important to their teams than any skater; I've made this clear on several threads. That's not a weak excuse, just a fact, unless you would opine that Luongo could score or pass like Crosby.
You say that the media factor is important for a franchise player, but it has no bearing on him being the best or one of the best players. And since you have such a problem with Crosby's media interactions, could you please cite an example. The interviews that I've seen have typically been very reasonable and cordial. When were his comments a distraction? The media's discussion of him as a whiner has little to do with his off-ice interaction with them.
And kind of back to the original topic, but you reminded me.
The Penguins fans have been there during losing seasons, such as last year. Deep in the conference basement, they had the largest increase in attendence in the league. Sure, it was because of low attendence before the lockout and people there to see Crosby, but attendence wasn't necessarily tied to winning. However, the winning made it a hot ticket this season.
This debate has changed from who is the best to who is the most valuable, two different things. So I won't argue that point anymore.
Beans:
They would have made the playoff probably with those other players in place of Crosby, just as you say they would have without Crosby. Hence, I haven't argued the MVP qualities. I don't disagree with you. I don't think they would have been higher than fifth with those players though. With some of them they may have been a bubble team - neither of us know for sure - and it's kind of a dataless hypothetical because the others have never been observed playing on their teams. Remember success is also based on synergy with teammates. If you talk to Sid's teammates, they seem to like him and some of them improved significantly when they played him. Part of this is that the other young players on the team can relate to him and others can help him. I don't know if this would necessarily be true with the other players you've proposed on this Penguins team.
To answer your question from earlier, if he had a 50-70 point season next year he would prove to not be the best in the league in the present. The same is true for any of the other players you've proposed as being on the same level, don't you agree? Being a good player is different than having been a god player, right?
You say that maturity is based solely on experience and not age and then go on to say he has had experience because he's been in the spotlight. That spotlight was very different than the NHL spotlight, we both know that. If you say age doesn't matter and only experience with maturity, then you are denying many physiological and psychological issues that he is still going through. It does matter scientifically. If you want the science, I can talk about it, but finals are over and this is a hockey site not a biochemistry forum. Similar (though kind of inverse) effects on Sakic do make his accomplishments ths season impressive. I give credence to both young and old alike and I do think Crosby's accomplishments were significantly more impressive.
Lecavalier has not been the go to guy in every situation in TB. St. Louis has been very important. That is similar to saying that Crosby is the go to guy in every situation when we all know Staal is a better PK player or better defensively as a forward in general. Gretzky wasn't the go to guy in every situation for his teams either. This certainly is not true of Lecavalier in the present.
That's all for now. Time to drink! |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 18:53:45
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I believe that I started out before reading this thread thinking that Crosby is a wonderful developing talent and a damn good player. I respect the guy, his talent, and what he brings to the game. However, I was of the mindset (along the lines of Beans) that he's great, but there are certainly others who I put ahead of him at this point (a la Sakic, Jagr, ..).
Now, all of a sudden. After reading all these posts. For some reason Sid leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I find myself liking him less and leaning towards my old, respectable, favorites. Tis quite funny, as this slight change of view has nothing to do with Crosby himself (he's completely innocent), but rather to a bunch of fans writing about him and heaving him up to his pedestal. This is where my natural devil's advocateness kicks in and warps my normal judgement.
Stop it! I like the kid! I think he's going to be a damn good hockey player and could certainly have a storybook career, but don't jump the gun here. Talk about his potential, his ability, and what he could possibly do. Don't start talking foolishness like he's one of the best ever, NOW!
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:31:24
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Sid is this: the most talented /driven in the league right now. Are there a few better players right now? Yes I would say there are. But it won't be that way much longer.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:39:08
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quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
Falling back on the differences between goaltenders, defencemen and skaters is weak. There is no doubt that Luongo and Brodeur did more for their teams than Sid, on the ice. Which to me sounds like they are better players.
Sorry BigShow, this part of your argument is weak. Because a player was more valuable to his particular team than another does not necessarily mean that player is better. It just means they had to rely on him more.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper" |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:44:07
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by BigShow
Falling back on the differences between goaltenders, defencemen and skaters is weak. There is no doubt that Luongo and Brodeur did more for their teams than Sid, on the ice. Which to me sounds like they are better players.
Sorry BigShow, this part of your argument is weak. Because a player was more valuable to his particular team than another does not necessarily mean that player is better. It just means they had to rely on him more.
Ack! Where am I?! Am I in some Bizarro world here? I actually agree with Willus! 
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Beans15
Moderator
Canada
8286 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2007 : 19:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
Sid is this: the most talented /driven in the league right now. Are there a few better players right now? Yes I would say there are. But it won't be that way much longer.
"You are not your desktop wallpaper"
Wow, I agree with Willus too! Scary. This is exactly what I am trying to say with all of my recent post. Although I can't say he is any more driven than others, but I do think he has the most potential talent in the league.
I think I can finally be done with this. Now, where is Chooch, I need a really good fight!! |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2007 : 19:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by manninm
However, I think that I most agree with Beans and Bigshow on this one. In terms of overall value, there are many players in the league, and maybe on that team, that are more important than Sid. When it came down to crunch time, he couldn't lead his team to victory. And I'm not blaming him for that...he's 19 and has a lot of maturing to do. But you can't just blindly say that he's the best, the greatest, and the most important to his team without taking a look at the big picture. What would Sakic, or Yzerman, or Kariya, or Drury, etc etc done in the same situation? If not guided them to victory, made significantly longer strides toward doing so.
It's interesting that you picked Sakic and Yzerman. Both of those guys were criticized in the past for failure to lead their teams to the big win. Not at 19, but in their late 20's. Both those guys lost a lot of big games on great teams before they were successful.
Crosby not leading the Pens to victory, as you put it, made perfect sense this year. Before the playoffs started I said they'd be out in four or five games.
The Pens have average goaltending, weak weak weak defence, and average forwards (a couple of stars and a couple of good vets does not a championship team make).
I do not blindly follow Sid. I just see in him potential that many other people around here are not capable of seeing. Does that make me smarter than them? No, just a better judge of talent.
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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I hate Pittsburgh AND their fans 
