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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
 Posted - 05/01/2007 : 11:10:20
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Poll Question:
Who was the best coach this year? Of the finalists, who will win the award? (and tell us who you think 'should' win the award?)
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Edited by - tctitans on 05/01/2007 11:11:04
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admin
Forum Admin
Canada
2338 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 11:18:01
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Great Poll TCT. I made a couple small mods to it and posted it on the home page! Thanks!  |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 11:31:47
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I think it's going to be a very close vote. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Vigneault should win - especially if you compare the talent that these 3 guys had to work with.
However, I have a sneaking suspicion that Ruff, and his Presidents trophy, will win this one.
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Edited by - tctitans on 05/01/2007 11:32:14 |
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PENSFAN8771
Rookie
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 12:19:48
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| Anyone think that Ruff's rant after game 2 may hurt him in this voting? What did Vigneault do this season to lift his team? I'm not all that familiar. Therrien made the Penguins much more disciplined and dealt with a team full of young players. I think his work definitely puts him in the finalist category, but I don't think he'll win. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 12:25:26
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I don't like any of the choices. It wouldn't surprise me if they give it to Ruff.
They had a great year but they also have a very talented crew. Coaches are more impressive when they do more with less.
I don't think what Vigneault did was all that impressive. They are where they are in large part because of Luongo. I'm not buying the "he built them into a defensive style team to support Luongo" theory.
Not really sure why Therrien belongs. I guess they did have a very impressive last half of the season run.
I think the Adams is probably the toughest award to choose as it's hard to know how much a teams success actually should be credited to the coach.
"Go chase headlights!" |
Edited by - willus3 on 05/01/2007 12:26:02 |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 13:35:44
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Well, faced with the 3 choices above it's a tough decision for sure but for me it would be between Therrien or Ruff. I might be inclined to choose Therrien. Young impressionable minds where no one on the team is near peaking....I'm sure he had tremendous influence upon them. Their second half was text book.
Ruff continues to do a great job with players who were not "superstars" prior to this year. But unlike the Pens, a lot of them are starting to peak. Are they not just maturing as they would? Is it just player chemistry?
I thiink that the Canucks success was entirely Luongo and if you put an average goalie in net (or even one that was a lot better than average) and I they would have barely made the playoffs, if at all. Luongo is the number 1 goalie in the league right now.
Interesting question that Pensfan had about whether Ruff's rant will affect the voting. I would not have thought of that but now that I am, I would say it will hurt him a bit....but if he was way out in front then it won't matter.
I agree Willus, toughest award to select for.  |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 13:46:22
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| The problem with voting Therrien or Vigneault is that it was more the players on their teams that contributed to the successes. Vancouver is dominated by Luongo, and he has a completely separate coach for goaltending. On the Pens, it's simply Crosby's and Malkin's and Staal's skills that got them through, not the coaching. Their talent was natural coming in from the start. Ruff on the other hand, took his team from last year and molded it into what it is now. There is no one star player with innate talents, he helped build a complete team. Yes, his actions on Tuesday weren't exactly classy or tasteful, but this is about coaching ability, not personality off the ice. I voted for Ruff. |
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Canuckulehead
Top Prospect
Canada
1 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 14:15:56
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| I believe Vigneault has made the most difference. Previously, with players like Bertuzzi and Jovo, if they really sucked, they would never be benched. Crawford always had his highest paid players out there whether they were doing the job or not. Vigneault gives everyone on the team a chance to play, and if the effort is put out, a player's minutes reflect this, not their salary. The major difference in the Canucks this year is their attitude. It seems to me, in previous years, they collectively had a defeatist attitude. They gave up. Now when they're down, as a fan, I don't feel like they're gone to give up, they just keep on trying. |
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leigh
Moderator
Canada
1755 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 14:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
The problem with voting Therrien or Vigneault is that it was more the players on their teams that contributed to the successes. Vancouver is dominated by Luongo, and he has a completely separate coach for goaltending. On the Pens, it's simply Crosby's and Malkin's and Staal's skills that got them through, not the coaching. Their talent was natural coming in from the start. Ruff on the other hand, took his team from last year and molded it into what it is now. There is no one star player with innate talents, he helped build a complete team......
Other than Crosby, the Pens don't realy have any bona fide superstars yet...so if you're using that argument for the Pens then you have to use it for the Sabres too; Briere (95pts), Drury, Connoly, Vanek, Roy, Afinogenov, Pominville, Hecht and even Zubrus later on...plus Miller (Team USA goalie of the future!) This is why I would give it to Therrien, because his team's talent is much less refined, while Buffalo's has a few more seasons under its belt. And as a side note, the point about Van is that if you take away Luongo and put in a non-top-5 goalie but still a good one, they would have been abysmal. If you take Crosby off of the Pens and replaced him with a "good" but not a top 15 forward, and they still would have had a great second half and made the playoffs...after a terrible start to the year. To me this speaks to their system and the coaches.
My humble vote is for Therrien but I think Ruff will get it. |
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Saku Steen
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1102 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 15:22:00
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I wish Teddy Nolan was there... He made the Islanders a team that shoudnt be in the playoffs. He made Bergeron a lot better.
Since he wasnt a choice I said Therrian. He really did well with all the younger players. |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 15:28:10
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| I don't know the exact number but the amount of man games lost for the sabres from the starting lineup is over 200 and they still manage to be the best team in the league. He made players like Stafford, Ryan, Mccarthur and Kaleta and even Paetch to come and play really well and not cost any games for the sabres. My vote is Ruff. And Ruff did get a little help from Regier to make that team but still the amount of man games lost and they're still at the top is amazing. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 15:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
The problem with voting Therrien or Vigneault is that it was more the players on their teams that contributed to the successes. Vancouver is dominated by Luongo, and he has a completely separate coach for goaltending. On the Pens, it's simply Crosby's and Malkin's and Staal's skills that got them through, not the coaching. Their talent was natural coming in from the start. Ruff on the other hand, took his team from last year and molded it into what it is now. There is no one star player with innate talents, he helped build a complete team. Yes, his actions on Tuesday weren't exactly classy or tasteful, but this is about coaching ability, not personality off the ice. I voted for Ruff.
Mik you are quite the homer.  But you know that right?
"Go chase headlights!" |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 15:43:27
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The fact that Vigneault is a finalist is truly embarrassing to me. I COULD have led Vancouver to the top of the NW with Luongo in net. All he needed was a TINY bit of offense (which wasn't there in Florida) and the team was okay. The only thing I will credit Vigneault for (which I've mentioned many a time before) is the top PK unit in the league. But I think there is no excuse as to why Naslund is under-performing and all the other stuff (line-juggling, etc.) that people seem to think he mastered, well those are a coach's duties, they aren't criteria for an elite coach.
I still think it's absurd that Trotz isn't even being considered. I know why he isn't (no exposure) but this guy has transformed a terrible expansion team that couldn't give a ticket away into one of the best teams in the NHL with a solid fanbase. I mean it's not his fault he keeps meeting SJ in the playoffs  . But seriously, I think he should win by a long shot. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 05/01/2007 15:44:22 |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 15:44:59
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| Yeah willus, I am biased toward the Sabres (not quite a homer, Maryland's about 5 hours from Buffalo), but I really do believe Ruff is the best option here. Therrien would be second, he did a good job with the Pens, it's just they already had a lot of talent to begin with. Vigneault however...no way, as I explained earlier. And (this didn't affect my voting, but) his is the one name in the NHL I cannot remember how to spell. I can spell Radivojevich and Niittymäki, but not Vigneault, lol. |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 05/01/2007 15:54:59 |
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Leafs Rock Planet
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
902 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 15:48:41
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I think it has to be Lindy Ruff. He took a team that was just fighting for a playoff spot last year and turned it into one of the best eams in the NHL.
Forecheck+Backcheck= Paycheck!!! |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 15:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Leafs Rock Planet
I think it has to be Lindy Ruff. He took a team that was just fighting for a playoff spot last year and turned it into one of the best eams in the NHL.
Last year Buffalo finished 4th in the East, 5th in the League. Not really battling that hard...
And Mik, it's Radivojevic lol. No 'h'. |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 16:00:41
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Ok, so I can't spell Radivojevic, lol. But I can pronounce it without being told how to
So anyway, the Pens jumped from last to 5th in the league, but that wasn't entirely due to Therrien. Crosby and the others had skill, and although Therrien helped them play well together as a team, most of the work was already done for him since they brought their talent with them. So who made the bigger jump isn't always the best criteria to base the vote on, ergo Ruff wins it. And I can't believe why Vinegoat or however you spell it was a finalist either. I hope he doesn't win it. |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 05/01/2007 16:01:02 |
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leafsfan_101
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1530 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 16:09:00
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Vingnault hasn't really done anything to change this team, it's been more of what Luongo has done. Lindy Ruff had an easy team to coach going into the year but its amazing how they won the Presidents Trophy with so many injuries. Therrien coached well and kept his team disciplined and a contender. My vote had to go to Ruff though, he coached a team when it had about 12 regulars out at one time in the season and still have the top ranked team.
When life gives you lemons throw them at the Ottawa Senators and their fans and hope it gets them in the eyes ;) |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 16:10:05
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I still can't believe Gretzky isn't a finalist here. 
"Go chase headlights!" |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 17:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
I don't think what Vigneault did was all that impressive. They are where they are in large part because of Luongo. I'm not buying the "he built them into a defensive style team to support Luongo" theory.
Willus, you are such a biased Canuck-hater. ;)
Explain to me why Luongo couldnt even get into the playoffs by himself in Long Island or Florida? I agree, Luongo is a big part of the team, but he is mostly certainly not the only part.
Actually, don't try to explain. It will just start another illogical non-fact based discussion with no conclusion. ;) |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 17:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by leigh
[I thiink that the Canucks success was entirely Luongo and if you put an average goalie in net (or even one that was a lot better than average) and I they would have barely made the playoffs, if at all.
Thanks Leigh. You pretty much prove here why Vigneault is a finalist. If they made the playoffs without Luongo, then Vigneault should be the clear winner. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 17:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
The fact that Vigneault is a finalist is truly embarrassing to me. I COULD have led Vancouver to the top of the NW with Luongo in net. All he needed was a TINY bit of offense (which wasn't there in Florida) and the team was okay. The only thing I will credit Vigneault for (which I've mentioned many a time before) is the top PK unit in the league. But I think there is no excuse as to why Naslund is under-performing and all the other stuff (line-juggling, etc.) that people seem to think he mastered, well those are a coach's duties, they aren't criteria for an elite coach.
I still think it's absurd that Trotz isn't even being considered. I know why he isn't (no exposure) but this guy has transformed a terrible expansion team that couldn't give a ticket away into one of the best teams in the NHL with a solid fanbase. I mean it's not his fault he keeps meeting SJ in the playoffs . But seriously, I think he should win by a long shot.
Too many haters out there. ;) It's either that or people are just ignorant (this isnt an insult!) and we can't blame them for that. Good that the media people have more access to all the facts. I'm impressed that even with the west coast exposure that the media folk included Alain on this list.. Just goes to show you that he must have done an amazing job to even compensate for being out west. |
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 18:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
The fact that Vigneault is a finalist is truly embarrassing to me. I COULD have led Vancouver to the top of the NW with Luongo in net. All he needed was a TINY bit of offense (which wasn't there in Florida) and the team was okay. The only thing I will credit Vigneault for (which I've mentioned many a time before) is the top PK unit in the league. But I think there is no excuse as to why Naslund is under-performing and all the other stuff (line-juggling, etc.) that people seem to think he mastered, well those are a coach's duties, they aren't criteria for an elite coach.
I still think it's absurd that Trotz isn't even being considered. I know why he isn't (no exposure) but this guy has transformed a terrible expansion team that couldn't give a ticket away into one of the best teams in the NHL with a solid fanbase. I mean it's not his fault he keeps meeting SJ in the playoffs . But seriously, I think he should win by a long shot.
Too many haters out there. ;) It's either that or people are just ignorant (this isnt an insult!) and we can't blame them for that. Good that the media people have more access to all the facts. I'm impressed that even with the west coast exposure that the media folk included Alain on this list.. Just goes to show you that he must have done an amazing job to even compensate for being out west.
TC you're such an East hater!!!
"Go chase headlights!" |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 18:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by willus3
quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
The fact that Vigneault is a finalist is truly embarrassing to me. I COULD have led Vancouver to the top of the NW with Luongo in net. All he needed was a TINY bit of offense (which wasn't there in Florida) and the team was okay. The only thing I will credit Vigneault for (which I've mentioned many a time before) is the top PK unit in the league. But I think there is no excuse as to why Naslund is under-performing and all the other stuff (line-juggling, etc.) that people seem to think he mastered, well those are a coach's duties, they aren't criteria for an elite coach.
I still think it's absurd that Trotz isn't even being considered. I know why he isn't (no exposure) but this guy has transformed a terrible expansion team that couldn't give a ticket away into one of the best teams in the NHL with a solid fanbase. I mean it's not his fault he keeps meeting SJ in the playoffs . But seriously, I think he should win by a long shot.
Too many haters out there. ;) It's either that or people are just ignorant (this isnt an insult!) and we can't blame them for that. Good that the media people have more access to all the facts. I'm impressed that even with the west coast exposure that the media folk included Alain on this list.. Just goes to show you that he must have done an amazing job to even compensate for being out west.
TC you're such an East hater!!!
Not quite, as there are several teams out east that I really really like. I dont however, like the general eastern bias that affects so many aspects of the game. C'est la vie. |
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Guest7418
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Posted - 05/01/2007 : 18:53:43
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Anyone who says that Vigneault didnt do anything to deserve being a finalist either hates the Canucks, lives out east, and/or doesnt know what the heck they are talking about. He has single-handedly done more to improve his team than any other coach in the NHL this year. I'm not saying he is the best coach, as Lemaire is a genius, but Vigneault has had the midas touch this year and completely deserves the kudos he is getting.
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willus3
Moderator
Canada
1948 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 18:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest7418
Anyone who says that Vigneault didnt do anything to deserve being a finalist either hates the Canucks, lives out east, and/or doesnt know what the heck they are talking about. He has single-handedly done more to improve his team than any other coach in the NHL this year. I'm not saying he is the best coach, as Lemaire is a genius, but Vigneault has had the midas touch this year and completely deserves the kudos he is getting.
Why is Lemaire a genius?
"Go chase headlights!" |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 19:18:34
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WHAT DID VIGNEAULT DO?
Everyone is quick to say "Oh he is the best coach, he turned this team around, blah blah blah...". No one can justify it. Yet when people try to justify why he doesn't deserve to win the biased voters shoot us down. The only arguments offered so far are "Why couldn't Luongo win in Florida?", "If you don't vote for Vigneault you hate the West or you're ignorant" or "Vigneault has the Midas touch". The first two are completely unrelated to Vigneault's coaching abilities and the third is a baseless comment. I live in the East but I hate the Conference and hardly pay attention to its standings/results. I much rather pay attention to the Ducks, Sharks, Kings, Wings, Preds, Wild, Avs, because it's a much better brand of hockey (in my opinion). But there is a difference between liking the "West" and actually following the West. Some of you Westerners who claim to be die-hard inter-Conference fans only really follow the Western Canadian teams. Why aren't guys like Carlyle, Trotz and Wilson even being considered? Of course the main argument is because they have more talent to work with, but that just doesn't cut it. First of all, Nashville is certainly no better skillwise than Buffalo, but Trotz like Ruff MADE THEM AN ELITE TEAM. He did this by developing young players like Weber and Hamhuis into household defensemen, among other things. Wilson had some good players to work with, but a well-structured PP didn't just come from Boston with Thornton. Wilson and Strelow worked with Nabokov and Toskala by developing their aggressiveness (notice how Nabokov almost lives outside the crease?) and their rebound control in order to make them both top 10 NHL goalies (when Nabokov shows up). How about Carlyle orchestrating the emergences of players like Beauchemin and McDonald, with the newborn Selanne? No flukes. But ask the NYR and Avs from a few years back who were stacked with talent but failed miserably. Just because a team has an All-Star lineup doesn't mean that it will automatically succeed.
But of course, none of this matters unless you coach a Canadian team or coach in the East. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 05/01/2007 19:20:06 |
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PainTrain
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
1393 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2007 : 20:12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
WHAT DID VIGNEAULT DO?
Everyone is quick to say "Oh he is the best coach, he turned this team around, blah blah blah...". No one can justify it. Yet when people try to justify why he doesn't deserve to win the biased voters shoot us down. The only arguments offered so far are "Why couldn't Luongo win in Florida?", "If you don't vote for Vigneault you hate the West or you're ignorant" or "Vigneault has the Midas touch". The first two are completely unrelated to Vigneault's coaching abilities and the third is a baseless comment. I live in the East but I hate the Conference and hardly pay attention to its standings/results. I much rather pay attention to the Ducks, Sharks, Kings, Wings, Preds, Wild, Avs, because it's a much better brand of hockey (in my opinion). But there is a difference between liking the "West" and actually following the West. Some of you Westerners who claim to be die-hard inter-Conference fans only really follow the Western Canadian teams. Why aren't guys like Carlyle, Trotz and Wilson even being considered? Of course the main argument is because they have more talent to work with, but that just doesn't cut it. First of all, Nashville is certainly no better skillwise than Buffalo, but Trotz like Ruff MADE THEM AN ELITE TEAM. He did this by developing young players like Weber and Hamhuis into household defensemen, among other things. Wilson had some good players to work with, but a well-structured PP didn't just come from Boston with Thornton. Wilson and Strelow worked with Nabokov and Toskala by developing their aggressiveness (notice how Nabokov almost lives outside the crease?) and their rebound control in order to make them both top 10 NHL goalies (when Nabokov shows up). How about Carlyle orchestrating the emergences of players like Beauchemin and McDonald, with the newborn Selanne? No flukes. But ask the NYR and Avs from a few years back who were stacked with talent but failed miserably. Just because a team has an All-Star lineup doesn't mean that it will automatically succeed.
But of course, none of this matters unless you coach a Canadian team or coach in the East.
Babs I agree with you. The west had 7 teams with over 100 points.Another coach is Jaque Lemaire of the Minnesota Wild. Without Gaborik for a majority of the season he has made the team still have success. Like I said Ruff deserves it for the amount of man games lost and they still manage to be at the top of the league. But what you're saying is true. Almost every coach in the west could be nominated. Willson, Carlyle, Trotz etc. And also another coach from the east is Ted Nolan, look at what he has done to the Islanders he made a not a playoff team to make the playoffs. By you saying Vigneault shouldn't get it is pretty true without Luongo they wouldn't be anywhere and you're right the penalty kill was the best thing he has done. |
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tctitans
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
931 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 14:39:44
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Trotz like Ruff MADE THEM AN ELITE TEAM. He did this by developing young players like Weber and Hamhuis into household defensemen, among other things.
Your very argument applies here. I agree that Trotz and Ruff are both good coaches, but without generalizing (like you have) what did they do?
My point in asking the question is that it's very hard to answer this question in detail. Anyone can generalize.
The main points for Vigneault are: He took a team that was not supposed to make the playoffs (and Yes, all the experts who made this prediction knew that Luongo was their goalie), and won the division with them. That's a pretty impressive feat. Now you will ask 'How did he do that' and that is not an easy question to answer. Just like it's not easy to answer for any other coach's accomplishments (I havent heard 1 concrete example yet to the contrary).
Because we dont have the answers to the "How's", we must fall back on the "What's" (the facts), and the "What's" point to Vigneault being a top contender for this award.
On a side note, when Vigneault was asked about how he felt about being nominated, he was pretty blunt and made it clear that he believes that of all the awards, this is the most 'team' based award as it involves not just the coach, but his assistants, trainers, facilities staff, management, players, fans, and every other factor that makes a team successful.
The "How's" are implicit based on the "What's"...
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Edited by - tctitans on 05/02/2007 14:42:13 |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 14:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Some of you Westerners who claim to be die-hard inter-Conference fans only really follow the Western Canadian teams. Why aren't guys like Carlyle, Trotz and Wilson even being considered?
Because they don't coach Canadian teams. You're completely right babs, no Western conference followers here talk about the Sharks, the Avs, the Wild, the Ducks, the Kings, or the Wings nearly as much as they talk about the Flames, the Oilers, and the Canucks. The reason Vigneault is winning this poll is because the majority of members are Canucks fans. But we all know LUONGO won the division for them, not Vigneault. I'd like to see where the Canucks would end up WITHOUT Luongo under Vigneault's coaching. They wouldn't have been 3rd in the West, that's for sure. |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 05/02/2007 14:56:49 |
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Guest2049
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Posted - 05/02/2007 : 15:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikhailova
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Some of you Westerners who claim to be die-hard inter-Conference fans only really follow the Western Canadian teams.
True. Some fans only like 1 team. Some fans only like Eastern teams. Some fans only like southern teams. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?
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Why aren't guys like Carlyle, Trotz and Wilson even being considered?
THEY WERE. They were considered, then rejected as not beloning in the top 3.
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Because they don't coach Canadian teams.
BULLCRAP.
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You're completely right babs, no Western conference followers here talk about the Sharks, the Avs, the Wild, the Ducks, the Kings, or the Wings nearly as much as they talk about the Flames, the Oilers, and the Canucks.
Daa... Of course this is true. Because most of the people on this board are Canucks, Flames, and Oilers fans.
quote:
The reason Vigneault is winning this poll is because the majority of members are Canucks fans.
True again. But who cares about this stupid poll? The REAL poll was already taken and Vigneault, like him or hate him, was a top 3 finalist.
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But we all know LUONGO won the division for them, not Vigneault.
No, we dont all know that. That is an interesting opinion you have there Mikhailova.
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I'd like to see where the Canucks would end up WITHOUT Luongo under Vigneault's coaching.
Yes, that would be interesting.
[quote]
They wouldn't have been 3rd in the West, that's for sure.
Noone will ever know. |
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Guest2049
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Posted - 05/02/2007 : 15:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by tctitans
quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
Trotz like Ruff MADE THEM AN ELITE TEAM. He did this by developing young players like Weber and Hamhuis into household defensemen, among other things.
Your very argument applies here. I agree that Trotz and Ruff are both good coaches, but without generalizing (like you have) what did they do?
My point in asking the question is that it's very hard to answer this question in detail. Anyone can generalize.
The main points for Vigneault are: He took a team that was not supposed to make the playoffs (and Yes, all the experts who made this prediction knew that Luongo was their goalie), and won the division with them. That's a pretty impressive feat. Now you will ask 'How did he do that' and that is not an easy question to answer. Just like it's not easy to answer for any other coach's accomplishments (I havent heard 1 concrete example yet to the contrary).
Because we dont have the answers to the "How's", we must fall back on the "What's" (the facts), and the "What's" point to Vigneault being a top contender for this award.
On a side note, when Vigneault was asked about how he felt about being nominated, he was pretty blunt and made it clear that he believes that of all the awards, this is the most 'team' based award as it involves not just the coach, but his assistants, trainers, facilities staff, management, players, fans, and every other factor that makes a team successful.
The "How's" are implicit based on the "What's"...
great points tctitans. I don't see any possible arguments againt this (besides some people's emotional ramblings because their favorites didnt get picked boo-hoo). Trotz, Wilson, Lemaire, .. all are good coaches and good candidates, but noone (at least no sane person) can argue that they had a hell of a lot more tools to work with than Vigneault or Thierrien (who himself had a lot more tools than Vigneault). Stop playing the boo-hoo card and fess up. You dont have to like it, but at least show some resemblance of logic and cognitive thinking. |
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bonfire420
Rookie
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:16:17
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| wow, people really have a chip on their shoulder about Vignualt! I could understand if they don't feel he should win the award but to say "the fact that Vignault is a finalist is truely an embaressment to me"... that's pretty far fetched. I like tctitans comment about how if it's all about Luongo why didn't he single handedly lead Florida into the playoffs every year he was there? The fact is Vignault has completely changed the style of the team. Anyone who disagrees either has not followed Vancouver over the past few years or has something against the guy (or the team, which I think is more likely). In addition, he's led this team to a division championship and into the second round of the playoffs when most people predicted at the start of the season they wouldn't even make the playoffs! I dont' know, I just don't get some people on this site... |
Edited by - bonfire420 on 05/02/2007 16:18:05 |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2049
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Originally posted by Mikhailova
Because they don't coach Canadian teams.
BULLCRAP.
I meant they're not considered HERE ON THIS SITE because they don't coach Canadian teams, and 98% of the members here are Canadian, therefore probably only consider guys like Vigneault. In reality, I know this isn't the reason they weren't chosen for the finals.
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You're completely right babs, no Western conference followers here talk about the Sharks, the Avs, the Wild, the Ducks, the Kings, or the Wings nearly as much as they talk about the Flames, the Oilers, and the Canucks.
Daa... Of course this is true. Because most of the people on this board are Canucks, Flames, and Oilers fans.
The point of that was to say that babs was right when he said the so-called "die-hard Western conference fans" only talk about the Canadian teams and not the whole Western conference.
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The reason Vigneault is winning this poll is because the majority of members are Canucks fans.
True again. But who cares about this stupid poll? The REAL poll was already taken and Vigneault, like him or hate him, was a top 3 finalist.
This poll here is for the WINNER, not the top 3, and the winning poll hasn't been taken yet in the NHL. I'm just pointing out to all the people complaining that Vigneault is winning is because most of the people voting cheer for his team.
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But we all know LUONGO won the division for them, not Vigneault.
]No, we dont all know that. That is an interesting opinion you have there Mikhailova.
Clearly you don't recognize a hyperbole when you see one. Of course I didn't mean EVERYONE knows that, but lots of people agree Luongo carried the team, and you have to admit there's no telling where Vancouver would've been without Luongo. And Vigneault had no influence on Luongo's training, he's got an entirely different goaltending coach.
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Edited by - Mikhailova on 05/02/2007 16:29:07 |
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fly4apuckguy
PickupHockey Pro
Canada
834 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:46:35
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I think Therrien will win, but I think Ruff should win.
Therrien did a lot with a toung team, brought them along quickly, but Ruff is day in and day out the best coach in the NHL. His team always plays hard and he's not afraid of his players (ex - making Afinogenov sit in the most important game of the year).
You miss 100% of the shots you don't take. - Gretz |
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Guest2049
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Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:54:16
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I see where you are coming from now on some of your other points Mikhailova.
>And Vigneault had no influence on Luongo's training, he's got an
>entirely different goaltending coach
This is true, but you can say that about all head coaches in the league so i'm not sure the point.
What Vigneaut did with the team, the team strategy, team focus, how to use Luongo and how to play in front him him is pure genius. He led a rag-tag group of (sounds like battlestar galactica :o) blue collar players to a division title. Luongo DIDNT do that, but Luongo was a big part of that.
Nuff said... This is all too obvious to be debated any further. All people who can't see that V belongs in the finalist, simple has a Vendetta for him. ;)
i''''''m out!
ps. Vancouver may arguably have the best 2nd line in the NHL today. Unfortunately, they don't have a 1st line.
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by bonfire420
wow, people really have a chip on their shoulder about Vignualt! I could understand if they don't feel he should win the award but to say "the fact that Vignault is a finalist is truely an embaressment to me"... that's pretty far fetched. I like tctitans comment about how if it's all about Luongo why didn't he single handedly lead Florida into the playoffs every year he was there? The fact is Vignault has completely changed the style of the team. Anyone who disagrees either has not followed Vancouver over the past few years or has something against the guy (or the team, which I think is more likely). In addition, he's led this team to a division championship and into the second round of the playoffs when most people predicted at the start of the season they wouldn't even make the playoffs! I dont' know, I just don't get some people on this site...
Read this then read my previous post. It's like I could read his mind...
I have nothing against Vigneault, never have. In fact he used to coach the Moose, which were my hometown team so at one point I would have cheered for him. What I don't like is undeserving candidates being nominated (also like Kiprusoff for the Vezina). If his "success" keeps being blown out of proportion in the media like Kiprusoff's, then I might start to hate him too. Sometimes I just question some of the decisions that the league/writers make and this is one of them. I know there are a lot of deserving candidates but I think the point is that there are many MORE deserving candidates. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 05/02/2007 17:01:56 |
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Mikhailova
PickupHockey All-Star
USA
2918 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest2049
I see where you are coming from now on some of your other points Mikhailova.
>And Vigneault had no influence on Luongo's training, he's got an
>entirely different goaltending coach
This is true, but you can say that about all head coaches in the league so i'm not sure the point.
What Vigneaut did with the team, the team strategy, team focus, how to use Luongo and how to play in front him him is pure genius. He led a rag-tag group of (sounds like battlestar galactica :o) blue collar players to a division title. Luongo DIDNT do that, but Luongo was a big part of that.
Nuff said... This is all too obvious to be debated any further. All people who can't see that V belongs in the finalist, simple has a Vendetta for him. ;)
i''''''m out!
ps. Vancouver may arguably have the best 2nd line in the NHL today. Unfortunately, they don't have a 1st line.
What I meant about Luongo is that his success comes from the training of a different coach, not Vigneault, and since Luongo helped them a lot it wasn't Vigneault's training that got them this far, since he didn't train Luongo. But whatever, fair enough. We all have our opinions, but we'll just have to wait to see who gets it  |
Edited by - Mikhailova on 05/02/2007 16:59:23 |
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Guest2049
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Posted - 05/02/2007 : 16:57:28
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
quote:
Originally posted by bonfire420
wow, people really have a chip on their shoulder about Vignualt! I could understand if they don't feel he should win the award but to say "the fact that Vignault is a finalist is truely an embaressment to me"... that's pretty far fetched. I like tctitans comment about how if it's all about Luongo why didn't he single handedly lead Florida into the playoffs every year he was there? The fact is Vignault has completely changed the style of the team. Anyone who disagrees either has not followed Vancouver over the past few years or has something against the guy (or the team, which I think is more likely). In addition, he's led this team to a division championship and into the second round of the playoffs when most people predicted at the start of the season they wouldn't even make the playoffs! I dont' know, I just don't get some people on this site...
Read this then read my previous post. It's like I could read his mind...
I have nothing against Vigneault, never have. In fact he used to coach the Moose, which were my hometown team so at one point I would have cheered for him. What I don't like is undeserving candidates being nominated (also like Kiprusoff for the Vezina). If his "success" keeps being blown out of proportion in the media like Kiprusoff's, then I might start to hate him too. Sometimes I just question some of the decisions that the league/writers make and this is one of them. I know there are a lot of deserving candidates but I think the point is that there are many MORE deserving candidates.
You have your opinions Baboushka... but unfortunately this time you are just plain wrong. |
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bablaboushka
PickupHockey Veteran
Canada
2417 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 17:03:16
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I don't really appreciate the blatant dismissal without justification, but hey it's not reflective of me...
By the way, I'm sick of people saying that if we don't think Vigneault deserves the Adams that we must hate him or not follow hockey. There happen to be educated hockey fans out there and the followers of a team are not the only hockey fans who know about that team. I could easily be pitching Wilson as a candidate because I think he is more deserving than Vigneault, but I think there are even MORE deserving candidates than Wilson, ex: Trotz. Now for a Sharks fan to be supporting the Preds' coach is borderline "treason" , but I'm not narrow-minded enough to think that my team's coach is the most deserving just because I like him, and certainly not to the point where I would shoot down the (educated) fans who don't think my team's coach deserves to win. If you want to put reasons forward that would suggest why Wilson is not as deserving as others to win, go right ahead. I might debate them if I don't agree, but I will never question how much of a fan of hockey you are. |
Edited by - bablaboushka on 05/02/2007 17:03:58 |
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Guest2049
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Posted - 05/02/2007 : 17:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by bablaboushka
I don't really appreciate the blatant dismissal without justification, but hey it's not reflective of me...
By the way, I'm sick of people saying that if we don't think Vigneault deserves the Adams that we must hate him or not follow hockey. There happen to be educated hockey fans out there and the followers of a team are not the only hockey fans who know about that team. I could easily be pitching Wilson as a candidate because I think he is more deserving than Vigneault, but I think there are even MORE deserving candidates than Wilson, ex: Trotz. Now for a Sharks fan to be supporting the Preds' coach is borderline "treason" , but I'm not narrow-minded enough to think that my team's coach is the most deserving just because I like him, and certainly not to the point where I would shoot down the (educated) fans who don't think my team's coach deserves to win. If you want to put reasons forward that would suggest why Wilson is not as deserving as others to win, go right ahead. I might debate them if I don't agree, but I will never question how much of a fan of hockey you are.
I'm not even a Canuck fan so don't think i'm goin' all homey. Don't try to hide behind the fact that you arent choosin' your own coach either.. but that would be a joke. With the team that SJ has, they should have competed for the Presidents trophy this year, so basically it was an example of a coaching failure (ok, to be fair it was not a failure, but it was far from being elite). Trotz is a good coach, but my pet weasle could have made the playoffs coaching the Preds this year. Trotz had his Pred fighting for the President trophy not too far bad... and ended up as the 4th seed (dont go all more points this, more points that on me..., bottom line is he ended up 4th seed). Man-o-man, with the talent that he had, and playing the likes of chicago, columbus, and St. Louis (he first 3/4 of the season team) a zillion times, i'm surprised that they didnt finish with even more wins... I'm not bashing Trotz, I believe in his abillity, but come on... let's get realistic about teams here... And yeah, there are lots of hockey-knowledgable people around, but they dont always talk with their brains or out of their mouths. |
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JACK ADAMS FINALISTS 
